Wow. I am loving this site. Very encouraging to read some of these posts.

I wanted to introduce myself, my name is Rob. I'm looking forward to meeting some of you guys, especially some of you have made it through DN.

I do not have a Buddhist background, so some of the terminology is strange (nanas, jhanas, etc). I have to admit that I'm not real fond of formal traditions, so Buddhism was a real turnoff for a long time. I guess now is a good time to be open minded.

I have yet to find a teacher that I resonate with. So it's refreshing to find a site like this with advanced practitioners.

As mentioned, I do not have a Buddhist background. I personally was curious about my experience, what "I" was, how the mind and emotions worked, what "reality" was, etc.

Unfortunately that curiosity launched me into Dark Night. It him me in April of 2013. I understand it better now, and the unpleasant side-effects have died down considerably.

The good news is that I can see similarities in the Buddhist texts and what I've experienced on my path. The path laid out in MCTB resonates greatly. I still oscillate between DN and EQ.

I happen to be one of those who has made some major wreckless decisions in DN (like bailing on my software engineering career). I'm not really sure how to deal with those decisions, but am working through them. I still have some issues with society. Like having to work 40+ hours a week (I find that exhausting). And, I'm not real sure how that's going to play out.

It seems that acceptance and letting go of control is on the of biggest issues we are dealing with here. Work is my biggest issue.

I personally want to have time for yoga, play guitar, and have time to hang out with people once and a while. I don't know if that's asking too much. I just don't see how all of that is possible working so much (and having to commute).

Of course, time for meditation is non-negotiable.

I'm currently only meditating about 40 mins a day. But I think it's a good idea to up those numbers to stay out of DN.

Anyways, I'd like to post from time to time just to hear back from some of you who were stuck in DN like I've been. I have some life questions and some advice would be nice.

Anyways, hope you all are well.

Rob

Hello to You!
And welcome. It's a bumpy week in parts of DhOville, but you've been reading a while it seems, so you know how to surf elsewhere in the land if threads are testy and turbulenty.

So work, huh? Yes, I also peeled out of a handsome salary job with tires squealing (okay, no tire peel out, but multi-resignations) in the so-called Dark Night of the Soul, but this was useful. Frankly, if you don't have massive debt and/or can reduce the debt load, there's right livelihood out there to keep food on the table. You have a valuable trade and can probably stay fed. 

However, there is a bit of a challenge in dealing with explaining oneself to others. So what are you doing? Meditating? You quit to meditate? And then the months go on, temper is still lost, dissatisfaction still arrives, boredome still arrives, the winter-ready squirrels seem brilliant all of a sudden and, whee, we've left the well-known shore to try to enter the so-called stream???

It's okay. You have the means to acquire food and shelter. As they say in the Hitchhiker's Guide, don't panic. And when you/I do, just call a friend. The dark night is very common. Try to call a meditating friend or a squirrel; they're good with nuts ;)

Seriously, welcome and best wishes. To me the practice and the choices to practice are worthwhile. 

Hi Rob,

Really glad you posted this thread. It reminds me of a lot of the things that I have gone through over the last few years and you've encapsulated some of it nicely. To be honest I'm still not even sure I know what DN is or even if I've gone through it or indeed am still in it. If it includes such things as depression, anxiety, uncertainty (especially as to where you fit in with this society), loneliness (at times) - maybe all of the above then yes, sure I've experienced my share of DN woes. 


With hindsight I did something very similar to you in 2008. I quit work completely, felt sure I was going to become a Buddhist Monk. Went on Pilgrimage to India/Nepal (visited all the holy sites) whilst at the same time feeling rather uneasy and thinking "what the f**k am I doing here?". I kinda felt I had to go because "that's what everyone does". I didn't take to India, and although there for 4 months, honestly I was only in the "real India" about 4 weeks or so in that time which was enough (the rest sheltered in Vipassana Centres or monasteries). I didn't really feel remotely connected during the time I spent there and felt sheer relief when I touched back down in England.
I was not unfamiliar with travel or even living in foreign lands having spent a considerable amount of time in S.E. Asia before this period and even lived in Bangkok for a couple of years in the early 2000's. But those SE Asian countries are tame compared to India...

Then I spent a period of time on and off at Amaravati (which is a well know Thai forest monastery in the West and used to be headed by a well respected American monk, Ajahn Sumedho, until he "retired" from being Abbott at the age of 76 I think).

Well, after all that, I'm still a layman and still not working (yet) I may go back sooner or later.


If you want my pennysworth, don't give up the day job just yet (re-reading what you said, sounds like you already have)...it can still keep you grounded to a certain extent. If it's possible for you to go part time, even if it means switching jobs/career to a 2 or 3 day week, I'd advise that. If you're not in debt and can afford to do so of course. Plus, you would be suprised at how much less you can get by on compared to the average Joe when you're just not part of the consumer culture.

I would absolutely second what Katy says:


Explaining yourself to others. Forget it. The rest of the so called "normal" world cannot and will never understand what you are up to. You might even find yourself dropping certain friends, either deliberately severing ties or just kinda drifting away from them. However, with family that's almost impossible to do (and probably not meant to be that way anyhow - afterall, whatever you're going through, especially with regards to most parents - they did give you an awful lot especially in the first 16 or so years of your life). I say almost because there are probably a small number who sever ties with family as well. However, if that can be avoided I don't think it's necessary. It's also somewhat cruel. Remember that they don't actually need to understand you or what you're going through no matter how much you would like them to.
Perhaps some of what I'm saying is not relevant to your particular situation anyhow...
Great. Do you have any sources/references you'd like to recommend? I'd be interested to read that too.

I wish you every success in your journey. Remember, it's important to also be kind to yourself too especially when things are getting rocky. Self Metta, can be a great help.

Piers.

Hey guys,
Great to hear from you. I can relate to what both of you are saying. We've had similar experiences.

Actually, I am working now (as of the last 2 weeks). I'm doing some part time freelancing work for a friend. I basically cut down on expenses, got a cheaper phone, got roommates, sold my car, and don't eat out much. I work about 25 hours a week, which is great. But, it is challenging because it's so uncertain. I have no idea when the work will end, or when I'll get more. I just have to be with the worry as it arises and trust.

Which brings me to my next point...

It's all about what's happening now. The way out of DN is to be with whatever is arising on a moment to moment basis without indulging or pushing away. If worry arises, be with the worry. Same for tiredness, physical pain, sadness, loneliness, fear, misery, disgust, etc.

It's incredibly simple, but seems complex because the momevement of mind is always into the future. The negative experiences seem like they're never going to end or that we need to do something about them. When allowed to be felt they pass rather quickly.

The other thing I notice is that I have a tendency to think, "I'm so far away." But this isn't true. That belief is what triggers the spiritual seeker and the tendency to do more or try to get rid of. This is a perpetual loop in and of itself.

I'll report back. But I think the reason I keep cycling back into DN is because I think I "got it", then I start indulging and stop being consistent with breath work (meditation as you guys would say). Sometimes I'll become afraid of no-self and react. The key is to keep going, step by step, inch by inch.

Haha! Yeah, I had to explain myself to a lot of people when I quit. Everyone thought I was nuts

I think everyone else is nuts because they're so caught up in consumerism or are in a hurry to get somewhere.

Can you imagine what the world would be like without all that non-sense? Sigh. We can dream can't we?

DN is a special beast. There are emotions such as depression, anxiety, loneliness, and uncertainty. But you can experience those any time. In DN all of those emotions are intensified. But that's only one characteristic. The main thing for me was an ongoing awareness of impermanence and dissatisfaction in all aspects of life. I don't have to meditate or inquire, it's always apparent. There's another element that makes DN challenging, which is having thought, but not believing it or identifying with it. Basically what's happening is the so called human identity is breaking apart. And you never know if you should follow a thought or just let it pass. In other words, I had a really hard time knowing how to function in the world. Imagine standing in the middle of a busy street with a semi-truck coming right at you, you had a thought that said, "Get out of the way," and you didn't know if you should listen to that thought. This is an extreme example, but was basically what my experience was this last year. I forgot how to take care of myself and interact with the world. I had basically become a newborn baby.

That was my experience exactly. Most of my friends have dropped off the face of the map. That was necessary. And no, nobody will ever know what one goes through. It's best to keep your mouth shut about your experience especially if you are experience heavy emotions, and absolutely keep your mouth shut about no-self.Sure. These were my mentors...

Byron Katie: For understanding the mind.

Rupert Spira and Greg Goode: For dismantling the "body" and day to day "reality"

Eckhart Tolle: For no reason at all. He's just fun and relaxing to listen to (I like his audio). 

The Presence Process (Michael Brown): For emotional work.

Adyashanti: For landmarks and stepping stones on the spiritual path.

Hey Ivory,

I've been posting this a lot lately, so I hope people don't think I'm a broken record, but here's my take on the dark night:

When we learn to meditate, we're essentially learning to concentrate.  So, after our concentration begins to get more powerful, we pass a threshold and finally achieve jhana (the A&P event).  This concentration event horizon can be dangerous if we don't have a handle on our problems because we now are concentrating at a higher level throughout our day.  Little things we used to forget about become objects of concentration and this begins the cycle of rumination.  Worse yet, since we don't have a handle on our problems, we don't really know what's causing our negativity, so we ruminate about the feelings themselves and the content of our problems becomes hidden from us.

The fastest way out of this messy situation is to learn two things, one is to direct your concentration toward wholesome and positive states (as you said, stay in the moment),  the other is through good old psychotherapy, where we directly challenge those things that cause us problems and align our beliefs with tranquility.  What I mean by this is, if you notice yourself ruminating about how unsatisfying life is - you need to dismantle this belief at its core.  You need to change your mind about it completely.  You need to really understand that life IS satisfying just as it is.  You can use concentration to help you with this, and you can accept the emotions as they come to help you understand them better, but instead of looking to escape feelings, look to escape the beliefs that cause those feelings.  When the beliefs are gone, there is nothing there to cause the negativity again.  It's been cut off at the root.

At our core, we are perfectly content.  Our dissatisfaction is added on top in order to protect ourselves from things we've seen as harmful in the past.  If we dismantle these prejudices about the world, we will always be content.

EDIT: Also, don't be afraid to think about things that cause negative reactions.  Those thoughts are pointing directly at what opinions need to be changed.  Think of it this way - you want to find freedom for your mind.  If you are driven by forces (emotions) that don't allow you to think certain thoughts or encounter certain things in life, then those forces are what need to be challenged.  Think about those thoughts that bother you (your worries about the future) and change your opinion about them.  An uncertain future is not worth worrying about right now because right now you want to be happy no matter what happens.  You want to be unconditionally happy.  Throw caution to the winds!  Be reckless and actually enjoy yourself right now for no reason at all!  You can allow yourself to see nothing as particularly important precisely because, in your contentment, you'll be able to handle all of your problems effortlessly.  You can trust yourself and rely on the spontaneous actions you take in the future.  There is simply is no reason anything needs to be unsatisfying ever.  We just decide to think that way.

Well said, Not Tao. Love this post.

You helped me let go of some worry, actually. I had become attached to a future outcome, and I didn't want what I have to end. This led to fear and control that I ultimately don't have.

I realized that if I stopped giving a fuck so much, I can enjoy what I have now without worrying that it isn't going to last.

Thing is, I can be happy doing anything as long as I can be engaged in what I'm doing.

If I lose what I have, so what? I engage in the next thing.

Now I don't have to worry about what I lose or what comes next.

If I make a mistake... Ooops!

So what? I engage in the next thing.

Precisely. 

I think one place that people get stuck is they are looking for fireworks. Like, life should be all highs and excitement. Joy is much more subtle. Joy comes from being able to fully engage.

I just kept noticing how I enjoyed cleaning, cooking, working on the computer, relaxing, listening to music, going for rides in my car, talking to my roommates, taking naps.

Then I was like, "Damn. If I can be happy with this then why do I insist on MORE? If I can be happy with the simple things, then why should I worry about losing anything?"

This is enough. Plain and simple.

The other thing is that all highs have lows. Attachment to highs makes us unable to appreciate the simple things.

The things you said about concentration and ruminating on the felt sensation ruminates also resonates. I don't have high concentration, but I was intent on ignoring the content of mind.

It's true that if you dive into the felt sensation, it will pass. But the thing is that it keeps coming back.

You do have to investigate the content of mind once and a while. You have to be curious about why these emotions are arising.