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Statistics of Sudden Awakenings

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Statistics of Sudden Awakenings Kim Katami 2/8/16 6:59 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Dada Kind 10/8/14 3:28 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/8/14 3:52 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Dada Kind 10/8/14 5:31 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings J J 10/8/14 6:31 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/9/14 12:21 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Rod 10/9/14 2:43 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 9:36 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings . Jake . 10/14/14 9:47 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 10:50 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings . Jake . 10/14/14 11:16 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Eva Nie 12/16/14 2:19 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Psi 10/14/14 1:15 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Teague 10/8/14 6:10 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/9/14 12:03 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Simon T. 10/8/14 5:16 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Florian 10/14/14 11:17 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 1:18 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Florian 10/14/14 3:11 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/14/14 4:07 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 4:16 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Florian 10/15/14 5:20 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 7:29 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 10:49 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Psi 10/15/14 12:28 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 1:47 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Dada Kind 10/15/14 12:30 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/15/14 1:53 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Dada Kind 10/15/14 2:50 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/15/14 10:48 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 1:01 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/16/14 1:12 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 5:06 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Colleen Peltomaa 10/16/14 9:06 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 9:51 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/16/14 3:57 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/16/14 11:57 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Dada Kind 10/16/14 7:35 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/17/14 12:01 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 10/18/14 1:41 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jeremy May 10/18/14 4:00 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 12/16/14 6:06 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 12/19/14 4:06 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/7/16 8:30 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/13/16 12:56 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Derek 1/13/16 4:17 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/13/16 6:15 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Mark 1/14/16 2:09 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/14/16 2:13 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Derek 1/17/16 7:49 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/17/16 4:51 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Derek 1/17/16 6:14 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/18/16 10:38 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Jinxed P 1/18/16 11:50 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/19/16 10:21 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/21/16 7:52 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/27/16 4:49 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/29/16 1:55 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 2/1/16 5:37 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 2/4/16 11:54 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 2/8/16 3:22 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 2/8/16 7:04 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 2/24/16 7:35 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 6/12/16 12:05 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 8/1/16 11:45 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 1/29/17 3:15 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 5/10/17 4:11 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Karl Eikrem 10/21/17 8:35 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 2/12/18 11:08 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 4/9/18 4:27 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Ben Meijer 7/5/18 11:00 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 7/6/18 3:04 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Kim Katami 2/25/19 9:28 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Karl Eikrem 5/19/16 3:18 PM
RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings Noah 6/18/16 3:57 AM
RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings Banned For waht? 6/19/16 5:22 AM
RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings Kim Katami 6/29/16 12:20 PM
RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings Banned For waht? 7/10/16 4:23 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Rod 10/15/14 4:47 PM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings Colleen Peltomaa 10/16/14 9:26 AM
RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings CJMacie 10/14/14 10:56 PM
RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings Banned For waht? 6/18/16 10:37 AM
Statistics of Sudden Awakenings
Answer
2/8/16 6:59 AM
I began a thread under Shinzen Young with these quotes:

HPK: During the last retreat here you mentioned that many of your students are more enlightened than they think they are.
After 30 years of working in the field, what have you observed that’s common, and what’s different about your student’s experiences of
enlightenment? How do their experiences compare to, for instance, those found in Kapleau’s “Three Pillars of Zen”, or Buddhagosa’s
“Vissuddhimagga”? How common is that dramatic, sudden experience of enlightenment as compared to the more gradual and even integration.

SZY:
The sudden epiphany that’s described in many books about enlightenment, that has definitely happened to some of my students. And when it happens, it’s similar to what is described in those books. How frequently does it happen? I don’t know. I don’t keep statistics, but maybe a couple times a year.

Here is Shinzen's interview at Buddhist Geeks: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/

I was surprised to see that this number is quite small, "a couple of times a year" despite of Shinzen's strong kensho-background via Rinzai Zen. Anyway, this thread is not about him (nor was the one I posted before).

I would like to know statistics (numbers) of how many stream-entries various guides/teachers verify during some period of time (perhaps on a retreat, during a month or year) and how many who apply the practice that is meant for a breakthrough actually pass the gate. Through numbers I wish to outline how methods actually work.

The reason I am asking this is because I have many times heard being said words like "humanity still hasn't found a way to mass awakenings" or words to that nature. In fact, I recall also Shinzen saying that somewhere.

I guess many here know LU, Liberation Unleashed. I am not up-to-date with their work but requested this info from Elena Nezhinsky who is one of the LU-founders. She said she will gladly find the information I am asking. I think they have found a wonderful way to awaken people.

I myself have been doing direct pointing since April this year. With a 6 week Summer break in between, awakenings/stream-entries number up to 17 now (out of 21 people who joined the process which is done via email) in about 6 months that I've been doing them upon requests. The percentage of awakening is 81% which is quite good. Still it remains to be seen what is the situation when the total number of participants rises up to a 100, 200 or so. I am actually a tantric yoga teacher but figured out that a direct pointing method is much more effective for this purpose than mantra/tantra-practice.

I'd appreciate any data on this.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 3:28 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
How do you determine that someone has achieved 'stream-entry'? How many had prior meditation and seeking?

A text conversation in which awakening is expected seems like an unreliable way to collect data.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 3:52 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
DD,

There are three ways for either verification or falsification that I use (not in specific order).

1. Written word/answers given by the person
2. A newly taken profile photo where eyes are clearly seen (because the I-sense falls off from the level of the eyes)
3. The energetic feeling/sensation that is transmitted from the particular person (where you need to be able to compare to your own awakened state whether an awakening has occurred or not)

Refer to the book for further info: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5594955

I've had people ranging from 2 months of meditation background to 30 years of "professional" practice (10 years out of those 30 as a monk). Prior practices vary from simple stress reduction exercises to Transcendental Meditation, from kriya yoga to tai chi. Ages between 23-70. Men and women. All European so far.

Based on my exp emailing is not unreliable at all. emoticon

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 5:16 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Is the process effective beyond stream entry?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 5:31 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Can you estimate an average amount of experience for the people you work with? And, your criteria remain unconvincing to me. I'd like to believe awakening is that easy, but I doubt it. It's remarkable what people will script themselves into if they've paid money.

Also, to partially answer Simon's question, I think your definition of 'stream-entry' isn't congruent with the typical definition of stream-entry around here. Your 'stream-entry' is 'MCTB arhatship', I think.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 6:10 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
If you have someones permission, can you post before and after photos of their eyes?  That's something I'd be keen to see.

-T

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/8/14 6:31 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Alan Chapman states in this video: http://vimeo.com/14928107 at around 6:18

"And I think the fact of the matter is that enlightenment is far more common than people are willing to admit." Previously he had said that he had no reason to doubt any of many of the claims to enlightenment that teachers in the public domain had made (listing Ken Wilber, Adi Da, Chogyam Trungpa, Andrew Cohen). Duncan Barford on his OEITH blog states (in his "An Apology for Meditation" article) that he agrees with Bill Joslin that "awakening experiences are not a big deal."

What I'm trying to say is that, awakening is actually extremely common, despite what may seem like a New-Age-y thing, it does seem that awakening is becoming more and more common. From my perspective (which I consider awakened), everyone is awakened.

And I don't mean that in an only absolute sense, I mean that literally, despite whatever training I have done, whatever "distinctions I have attained". I literally see everyone as awakened and having no distinction between myself and them. This is somewhat like the Hongaku doctrine, but that doctrine seems to imply that awakening is actually something special, which it isn't.

There is no expression, no progress, no path, no fruition, the vidya (rigpa) is ever present. But no clouded or shrouded either. It's a koan.

Even Hakuin opined that the tales of seekers and masters taking 10 or 20 years for their quest to end must have surely been made up by them! Stating: "The Way is not far from man."

Peace.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 12:03 AM as a reply to Teague.
Teague:
If you have someones permission, can you post before and after photos of their eyes?  That's something I'd be keen to see.

-T
T. I can ask. I've formed a closed FB-group for people who have passed the gate through this process. That has been a handy platform for open discussion.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 12:21 AM as a reply to J J.
J J:
Alan Chapman states in this video: http://vimeo.com/14928107 at around 6:18

"And I think the fact of the matter is that enlightenment is far more common than people are willing to admit." Previously he had said that he had no reason to doubt any of many of the claims to enlightenment that teachers in the public domain had made (listing Ken Wilber, Adi Da, Chogyam Trungpa, Andrew Cohen). Duncan Barford on his OEITH blog states (in his "An Apology for Meditation" article) that he agrees with Bill Joslin that "awakening experiences are not a big deal."

What I'm trying to say is that, awakening is actually extremely common, despite what may seem like a New-Age-y thing, it does seem that awakening is becoming more and more common. From my perspective (which I consider awakened), everyone is awakened.

And I don't mean that in an only absolute sense, I mean that literally, despite whatever training I have done, whatever "distinctions I have attained". I literally see everyone as awakened and having no distinction between myself and them. This is somewhat like the Hongaku doctrine, but that doctrine seems to imply that awakening is actually something special, which it isn't.

There is no expression, no progress, no path, no fruition, the vidya (rigpa) is ever present. But no clouded or shrouded either. It's a koan.

Even Hakuin opined that the tales of seekers and masters taking 10 or 20 years for their quest to end must have surely been made up by them! Stating: "The Way is not far from man."

Peace.

JJ,

Um, I don't know about this sort of stuff. Maybe it is a poor choice of words but awakening is not an experience as Bill Joslin said. Maybe they confuse awakening/enlightenment with something else. Certainly for me, my late teacher as well as to each one who has awakened in my guidance awakening is a "big deal", a turning point. By big deal, I mean a definite shift that is permanent, dropping of I from the place of subject. That is how the gang of robbers looses it's boss, in a psychological sense, and that is never an insignificant thing. If it was an insignificant thing I doubt people of the past or present would be interested in it.

If awakening is something that makes the person better, higher or more precious than others, then we are not talking about awakening as how I understand it. For me awakening hasn't brought an "aura of mystery", a higher position in relation to others or something like that but the contrary, naturalness and simplicity.

I certainly don't think that awakenings are "extremely common". If they were, the world society and the planet would be in a very different place. Sure, awakenings do occur these days much more often than for example 10, 50 or 100 years ago but still, I think, it will be perhaps hundreds of years before we can talk about "mass awakenings" that will have a direct effect on the society. That is simple not the situation at the moment. 

Hakuin's quote "The Way is not far from man" is spot on. He does say that there is some distance between man and the Way which in practical terms means that everyone is not already awakened. Surely Hakuin wasn't before he had first breakthrough. I think he wrote in his diary that he had 18 breakthroughs which made him the most respected zen-master of the modern times.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/9/14 2:43 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I agree.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 9:36 AM as a reply to Rod.
Hmm... I expected to get more information on the matter on this particular forum. No one knows? Really?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 9:47 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
The only study I'm aware of regarding the rate of awakenings (in this case: stream entry, according to Therevada criteria) was a study in which meditators on a three month retreat were studied before during and after the retreat. Teachers were asked to identify which students had hit which milestones and this teacher assessment was correlated with changes in thematic apperceptive testing and other qaultitative 'measurements' of the students.

The study was done twice: with (mostly) Burmese meditators in Burma and with (mostly) Western students at IMS in Barre Massachusetts(I think it was IMS, anyway). In the former case the Stream Entry rate was something like 50% I think. In the latter case it was much much lower, maybe even 1%. As I recall the analysis of this disparity was that the Burmese students followed instructions at a higher rate while the Western students at IMS didn't follow instructions at a high rate.

The study is discussed in "Transformations of Consciousness" which is a collaborative book by Ken Wilber, Dan Brown (now a mahamudra teacher) and Jack Engler. I think Brown and Engler conducted the study. The book is from the late seventies or early eighties I think (maybe, it's been a while since I've looked at it).

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 10:50 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
OK. Thanks Jake.

I have Brown's book on mahamudra but don't recall him referring to this study, have to check it.

50% vs. 1%. Gee... That's a huge difference. 3 months huh? That's pretty intensive, most Westerners couldn't even join one. I don't know if the Burmese method aims to stream entry or not.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 11:16 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Sorry for being unclear, yes, the Burmese method does directly aim at it; it's one of the traditions that uses that specific language and frames awakening in terms of Four Paths of which SE is the first. This is a tradition that has heavily influenced the culture here at DhO. Daniel's work and that of other pioneers in the pragmatic dharma scene could be seen as a response to the conditions which result in such low success rates for Westerners.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 11:17 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I myself have been doing direct pointing since April this year. With a 6 week Summer break in between, awakenings/stream-entries number up to 17 now (out of 21 people who joined the process which is done via email) in about 6 months that I've been doing them upon requests. The percentage of awakening is 81% which is quite good. Still it remains to be seen what is the situation when the total number of participants rises up to a 100, 200 or so. I am actually a tantric yoga teacher but figured out that a direct pointing method is much more effective for this purpose than mantra/tantra-practice.

I'd appreciate any data on this.


Sorry, I don't have any data on this. What do you want to do with such statistics? Can't you make some up? ;)

So, not having answered your question: I'm happy to hear news from Elena and Ilona.

What do you think of the awakening you point people at? Does it "stick"? What do your earliest ... pointees (any good name for them?) ... from April, say now? Is it a memory to them? Can they access it at will (rather than access a memory of it)? Do any say they "lost" it? Do you get the impression they want to believe it stuck even if they lost it?

I find pointing very interesting, and the associated "transmission effect". I'm totally unsure what to make of it, though. So I'm genuinely interested in your take, in another thread if you prefer to keep this one dedicated to statistics.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 1:15 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Hmm... I expected to get more information on the matter on this particular forum. No one knows? Really?

Ooh, Ooh! Mr Kotter! I know!  The success rate for Stream Enterers is 100% of those who enter the Stream.  Just messin' with ya!  :-), but seriously, I know nothing....which is indeed a paradox in and of itself....

Psi Phi

Just brushing up on my "wrong speech"

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 1:18 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:

Sorry, I don't have any data on this. What do you want to do with such statistics? Can't you make some up? ;)

So, not having answered your question: I'm happy to hear news from Elena and Ilona.

What do you think of the awakening you point people at? Does it "stick"? What do your earliest ... pointees (any good name for them?) ... from April, say now? Is it a memory to them? Can they access it at will (rather than access a memory of it)? Do any say they "lost" it? Do you get the impression they want to believe it stuck even if they lost it?

I find pointing very interesting, and the associated "transmission effect". I'm totally unsure what to make of it, though. So I'm genuinely interested in your take, in another thread if you prefer to keep this one dedicated to statistics.

Cheers,
Florian

I wish to get somekind of a fact based overall picture of how we are actually doing. No other purpose.

Although I use the term "stream entry" I am not familiar with how the theravada-folks describe it in more detail. I posted some questions about the notions my students have made after the initial breakthrough. Not all of them are keen Facebook/internet-users but I hope I get answers at least from half of them.

I suppose that for those who have little or close to none meditataion/practice background there might have been moments/periods when they have felt they lost it. Personally in my case, I thought so several times in my head. However the "I" never came back, it never became a memory which would imply of an experience. Hence the awakening would have not been a real permanent breakthrough. Will get back with the information from the apes. Yeah, the group we have at Facebook for these folks is named "Apes on their way to liberation". We openly speak of apes emoticon

Florian, What do you mean with the transmission effect? What are you unsure of?

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 3:11 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I wish to get somekind of a fact based overall picture of how we are actually doing. No other purpose.


Ok.

Florian, What do you mean with the transmission effect? What are you unsure of?


Transmitting realization from one person to the next. A couple of older threads I remember:

Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...

Direct Transmission - A Greased Lightening Path?

I'm unsure what to make of it. It's fascinating but also has the potential to become a totally creepy thing. Examples: Adi Da. Andrew Cohen.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 4:07 PM as a reply to Florian.
Right. I'll go through the Folk-recording and the threads tomorrow.

I have transmissions/tunings with my students both in person as well as through Skype, sometimes without Skype or any other online-media because I'm a tantric yoga teacher. Also, my late teacher used this method as her primary teaching tool (she lived at Hawaii while I live in Finland) so I'm well aware of it. I also teach this stuff to my students who will someday pass transmissions themselves to their students.

I'd say tuning in with anything is a basic skill for a tantric yogi. But just like you mention it is crucial to know some basics of who does it, how and to whom. Common morals and ethics go a long way here too.

I'll get back on this.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/14/14 10:56 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

Although I use the term "stream entry" I am not familiar with how the theravada-folks describe it in more detail.

Interesting thread -- how much do we really know (demographics and among the range of definitions)?

What is Theravadan SE? Two directions -- how it's attained (and recognized), and what it does for one.

Here's a relatively succint (ca 80 pages) intro by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html

Here's additional information on his take of it (not found in the book):
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/5585083#_19_message_5596761

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 4:16 AM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:


Transmitting realization from one person to the next. A couple of older threads I remember:

Shaktipat, Transmission, Emptiness Vibes...

Direct Transmission - A Greased Lightening Path?

I'm unsure what to make of it. It's fascinating but also has the potential to become a totally creepy thing. Examples: Adi Da. Andrew Cohen.

Cheers,
Florian

I went through the threads (didn't listen to Folk's recording yet). Many good and valid points there. Do you have something specific in mind
that you are unsure of?

I regards to transmission in awakening guidances that I give, yes I do sometimes give them an energetic boost but in this case it is not the same as when passing initiations of deity practices or what is referred to as shaktipat. How I give the boost in the guidances is like this (the video of a zen master) but I do it through writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjyqGnWGftE

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 5:20 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
I went through the threads (didn't listen to Folk's recording yet). Many good and valid points there. Do you have something specific in mind that you are unsure of?


Like I said: does it stick? How do people deveolp after transmission? How to deal with the possibility of abuse of the power gradient?

I regards to transmission in awakening guidances that I give, yes I do sometimes give them an energetic boost but in this case it is not the same as when passing initiations of deity practices or what is referred to as shaktipat. How I give the boost in the guidances is like this (the video of a zen master) but I do it through writing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjyqGnWGftE


Yeah, the "death metal aesthetics" of awakening emoticon

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 7:29 AM as a reply to Florian.
Oh, right! Now I understand the context of your question.

To make sure there is difference between 1. direct pointing (whether it is done by verbal pointing or the way how the zen master does it in the film, I think it is a fabolous clip btw) and 2. transmission of energy/shakti. This is a clear distinction though sometimes it is not so black and white, meaning that either one can and does effect the other.

From my own behalf as a teacher I can say that I use both approaches because I think the tantric method doesn't do very good in regards to stream entry (dropping of I, the primary cause of delusion) while it does great in reg to karmic cleansing while analytical meditation (subject vipashyana) used in direct pointing works well for the purpose. Analysis of I-ness/I-lessness could be continued (karmic purification, the secondary causes of delusion) after the subject I has dropped but I think such approach is just too slow and time consuming for the common dedicated practitioner. This is why I combine both approaches, at least for time being.

I am sure that when shakti transmissions are done 1. by a valid at least awakened person who is well trained in meditation and has 2. to a larger part or completely cleansed his/her karmic body, then surely there is long-term benefit for the person receiving it. However, these two requirements are very rarely fulfilled in all the shaktipats/transmissions that I've seen. Usually, it is more or less an "esoteric cocktail".

In the other thread there was the example how someone got the transmission of the elder chan monk and his fingers, urine and whatever turned to taste sweet. I didn't see him saying if this has actually been beneficial to him. He did say that he didn't feel or notice any difference with the exception of the taste. Anyway, licking your own or others fingers or tasting your urine after transmission to see how or if it has worked or not sounds way too *weird* for me. I do not know who we are talking about but this does not sound pregnant with wisdom to me. Sorry.

I've witnessed several cases of world known "masters or satgurus" giving their blessings or initiations when the outcome of it has solely been negative: people getting sick and nautious, some even for a long period of time before they have received help from more competent healers or teachers.

Oh boy, now that I came to think of this... I've seen so screwed up things happen you wouldn't believe. My late teacher used to laugh at me because I used to take up these "big boys". Now recalling all those things these world gurus do to their devotees and students makes me extremely sad for all of them. I can only sincerely pray that it will turn out better for them.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 10:49 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Here is the reply from Elena from Liberation Unleashed:

"On the LU forum we have 1049 documented works. A little portion of those
dublicates ( same client was guided by couple of guides). On a safe side
people said we can say 1000 for sure. Then add 42 face to face
realizations in live LU meetings I held in 2013, and they are not
documented, but all works were confirmed by 2-3 LU people present at
these meetings."

Now... THAT is some convincing data! Wouldn't you agree, folks? emoticon

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 12:28 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Here is the reply from Elena from Liberation Unleashed:

"On the LU forum we have 1049 documented works. A little portion of those
dublicates ( same client was guided by couple of guides). On a safe side
people said we can say 1000 for sure. Then add 42 face to face
realizations in live LU meetings I held in 2013, and they are not
documented, but all works were confirmed by 2-3 LU people present at
these meetings."

Now... THAT is some convincing data! Wouldn't you agree, folks? emoticon

Definitely agree!

 Now, is this sudden awakening that you are attempting to track and/or catalouge defined as definition 1  or 2 below

Sudden Awakening 1:  The person awakened has now directly experienced for themselves that there really is no "I" directing each thought that comes to the mind, but , now that this has been seen and realized this isn't the view of the mind all of the time, though the new viewpoint is accessible if one remembers the insight.  Basically one is partially released from self-delusion.  One might add , there is another form of "small-stream entry"  which is Chula-Sotapanna, which also seems to fit better to what is happening here. 

Sudden Awakening 2:  The person awakened has now been fully released from :

  1. Self-Illusion (sakkaya-ditthi)
  2. Doubt(vicikiccha)
  3. Attachment to mere Rule and Ritual (silabbata-paramaso)
  4. Sensual Lust (kamacchando, kāma-cchanda)
  5. Ill-Will (vyapada)
  6. Craving for Fine-Material Existence (rupa-raga)
  7. Craving for Immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)
  8. Conceit (mana)
  9. Restlessness (uddhaccan)
  10. Ignorance (avijja).

So, from my view it seems, the sudden awakenings are cutting into the first fetter, Self-Illusion, which is very important, but much more is to be done.  So, again, just a view, Awakened , more Awakened, even more awakened, and fully awakened, are different, and there are probably many in between stages between the stages.

And,  the Sudden Awakening for a practioner would be of tremendous benefit, though I wouldn't call it the end of the journey.

Sorry for my earlier comedy post being embedded within your serious postings, Sometimes I don't know if I joke too much trying to keep things light-hearted, and inadvertantly bother people...

Psi Phi

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 12:30 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So, they're claiming 1000/1050? 95%? That makes me even more skeptical. Though, I honestly wish it's true.

Maybe you could start a thread here and run a direct pointing experiment. I'm willing to volunteer and cooperate sincerely, if you like the idea. I'm sure others around here wouldn't mind a sudden awakening either.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 1:47 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi Phi:

Definitely agree!

 Now, is this sudden awakening that you are attempting to track and/or catalouge defined as definition 1  or 2 below

Sudden Awakening 1:  The person awakened has now directly experienced for themselves that there really is no "I" directing each thought that comes to the mind, but , now that this has been seen and realized this isn't the view of the mind all of the time, though the new viewpoint is accessible if one remembers the insight.  Basically one is partially released from self-delusion.  One might add , there is another form of "small-stream entry"  which is Chula-Sotapanna, which also seems to fit better to what is happening here. 

Sudden Awakening 2:  The person awakened has now been fully released from :

  1. Self-Illusion (sakkaya-ditthi)
  2. Doubt(vicikiccha)
  3. Attachment to mere Rule and Ritual (silabbata-paramaso)
  4. Sensual Lust (kamacchando, kāma-cchanda)
  5. Ill-Will (vyapada)
  6. Craving for Fine-Material Existence (rupa-raga)
  7. Craving for Immaterial Existence (arupa-raga)
  8. Conceit (mana)
  9. Restlessness (uddhaccan)
  10. Ignorance (avijja).

So, from my view it seems, the sudden awakenings are cutting into the first fetter, Self-Illusion, which is very important, but much more is to be done.  So, again, just a view, Awakened , more Awakened, even more awakened, and fully awakened, are different, and there are probably many in between stages between the stages.

And,  the Sudden Awakening for a practioner would be of tremendous benefit, though I wouldn't call it the end of the journey.

Sorry for my earlier comedy post being embedded within your serious postings, Sometimes I don't know if I joke too much trying to keep things light-hearted, and inadvertantly bother people...

Psi Phi
PP,

Yes, the first one. I mentioned in the prev post two terms that I use: primary cause of delusion (subject) and secondary causes of delusion (all objects/karmas) which seem to nicely fit with the model you post here. In my exp these two stages are the main ones. I call them awakening/enlightenment and liberation (jivanmukta/arhat). After this there is also the third main stage of full buddhahood/paramukta-hood. These three main stages can be chopped into several smaller ones (as is done with the bodhisattva bhumis) but I use this map because it is easy to understand.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 1:53 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Droll Dedekind:
So, they're claiming 1000/1050? 95%? That makes me even more skeptical. Though, I honestly wish it's true.

Maybe you could start a thread here and run a direct pointing experiment. I'm willing to volunteer and cooperate sincerely, if you like the idea. I'm sure others around here wouldn't mind a sudden awakening either.
Their claims can be verified by reading all those dialogues from their online forum. I have no reason to think that Elena would have made those numbers up. I do have one student who awoke through LU in just 2 days, that went very smoothly. One of my student knows better about LU than I do. In reg to stream entry it seems to me they do better than all the trads combined. But just as it has been said, it is not everything, just the beginning.

No, I am not eager to do the experiment here but if you wish you can download a free e-book and read how I do it:
http://en.samadhipath.com/114

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 2:50 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I don't think any deliberate deception is at work here. But...

When there are archives full of these conversations, that seekers have presumably read, is it any surprise that people can reproduce answers that sound like an awakening? To complicate matters, there are probably some people that have been seeking for years that have woken up through LU. But, their years of previous work were essential to that awakening. I think it's common for teachers to have an anticlimactic awakening after years of seeking, and then assume that they (and anyone) could have just had that awakening from the beginning. It's easy to underestimate the creeping effect of years of spiritual seeking.

Then, there are probably scores of people on LU who believe that awakening is merely an intellectual understanding. They see that the process has (ostensibly) worked for so many others; it's human nature to want to be in the club of people who 'got it'. Guide status, and a colored username too? Oooo

A Crowley poem comes to mind. Sorry if I derailed your thread a bit.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 4:47 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
So this guy - Fred Davis, uses a method of his own invention (I suppose) to wake people up. The link included is of him talking and some testimonials after waking up in a workshop he conducted. There are a couple of videos on Youtube of him going through his technique as well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73nPqCncjs

I have alot of questions around this since there could be alot of categories under the banner of 'waking up' with a few already suggested. Some of what the testimonials are suggesting here is that the 'waking up' is not permanent. I am not sure if this kind of waking up is the same thing or where on the spectrum of waking up (if one could be developed) this would sit in relation to say the clearly mapped theravadin path model where each path change is a considered a permanent change.

The question of whether sudden waking up requires continued practice to support further unfoldment, if indeed any is required and if not, is the state stable? and if its stable is it the same state as one of say a monk who just keeps meditating and practicing daily regardless of if they have woken up or not?  As I said, lots of questions around this. 

Prof Jefferey Martin has also tried to look at the woken up state from an academic, non-spiritual perspective to try and characterise it and has interviewed over 1000 subjects over the past 8 years as far as I understand. On the site below there are a couple of youtube videos of Jefferey Martin presenting his findings and he also suggests that some of the subjects actually 'lost' the awake state either temporarily or permanently as well. This may be useful in this discussion as well.

http://nonsymbolic.org/about/

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/15/14 10:48 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
buddha!

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 1:01 AM as a reply to Dada Kind.
DD,

What is the problem if someone wants to produce learned answers? That is no harm for the guide but for the person himself. We talked about this with my assistant teachers.

At LU they leave the confirmation of the awakening mostly for the person himself. The guide discusses about the awakening with 2-3 other guides before the awakening is confirmed. They as do I request the person to be honest and as clear as possible in the dialogue. As there are so many guides at LU I suppose some of them can and some of them can't vefiry or falsify the seeker's awakening also without the written answers. I combine three ways of verification which are: 1. written answers/explanations of what has taken place, 2. photo before and after and 3. testing ones awakening in everyday life. As I'm trained in this I'm pretty sure I can spot if someone tries to trick me. In these awakening guidances it hasn't happened but on other issues has. I feel it instantly if the person is talking the truth or not, or if it tastes like paper (merely intellectual). That is fine for me if people wish to speak falsely but in the case of awakening guidances I certainly wouldn't pass such a person. I'd say that being able to spot these things is the difference between an amateur and a professional teacher. It requires years of in-depth training with a competent teacher/s.

Also, what is the issue if and when people have long backgrounds of meditation/practices? I don't see what is the matter with that question.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 1:12 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 5:06 AM as a reply to Jeremy May.
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:06 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com
Hello, Kim, would you mind if I contacted you for some clarification?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:26 AM as a reply to Rod.
Rod:
So this guy - Fred Davis, uses a method of his own invention (I suppose) to wake people up. The link included is of him talking and some testimonials after waking up in a workshop he conducted. There are a couple of videos on Youtube of him going through his technique as well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G73nPqCncjs

I have alot of questions around this since there could be alot of categories under the banner of 'waking up' with a few already suggested. Some of what the testimonials are suggesting here is that the 'waking up' is not permanent. I am not sure if this kind of waking up is the same thing or where on the spectrum of waking up (if one could be developed) this would sit in relation to say the clearly mapped theravadin path model where each path change is a considered a permanent change.

The question of whether sudden waking up requires continued practice to support further unfoldment, if indeed any is required and if not, is the state stable? and if its stable is it the same state as one of say a monk who just keeps meditating and practicing daily regardless of if they have woken up or not?  As I said, lots of questions around this. 

Prof Jefferey Martin has also tried to look at the woken up state from an academic, non-spiritual perspective to try and characterise it and has interviewed over 1000 subjects over the past 8 years as far as I understand. On the site below there are a couple of youtube videos of Jefferey Martin presenting his findings and he also suggests that some of the subjects actually 'lost' the awake state either temporarily or permanently as well. This may be useful in this discussion as well.

http://nonsymbolic.org/about/

Thank you for presenting this fella and his work.  I put myself through one of his guided sessions and at first I was critical for him always asking the question and then giving the answer and then I decided to treat it as a guided visualization and that is when it started to work for me.   It can cut through delusions -- he is simply using logic, a logic that is not of the mind.   Any process that can get the being to even temporarily bypass their mind is of value.  And even if the being cannot immediately disengage from their enforced games of life, they will never forget it as an experience of a !wow! moment and at some point want to re-create that experience, seeking it out.   I also saw this occur occasionally with people going through the Sedona Method Course. 

I'm committed to finishing another [slow awakening] practice for now, but once in awhile I like to give myself a "cat-treat" and do some back-to-basics self enquiry, namely, "what am I?".  You know -- that inner "purrrrr"   :-))

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 9:51 AM as a reply to Colleen Peltomaa.
Colleen Karalee Peltomaa:
Kim Katami:
Jeremy May:
You are wise.  I'd like to speak to you.

You calling me a wise guy huh? emoticon I'm best reached through email: kimkatami(at)hotmail.com
Hello, Kim, would you mind if I contacted you for some clarification?
Colleen,

No, I don't mind.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 3:57 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Did this message not get to you?  There was a server reset on the night I sent it...

"Do you want your sudden awakening?  Colleen has it in a little box under her bed.  She has been saving it for you, waiting to give it to you on your BirthDay"

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 7:35 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
My previous post seems needlessly critical, sorry.

To put it more positively: if LU gave short surveys that asked pointees about their previous meditation/spiritual experience, then success rates could be put into more descriptive brackets. Like, Average Joe Success Rate 15%-20%, ..., 10+ Years of Meditation Success Rate 90%. These stats would be more interesting.

I'm gonna give LU a sincere try soon. I'll post here if I have to eat my words emoticon

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/16/14 11:57 PM as a reply to Jeremy May.
Jeremy May:
Did this message not get to you?  There was a server reset on the night I sent it...

"Do you want your sudden awakening?  Colleen has it in a little box under her bed.  She has been saving it for you, waiting to give it to you on your BirthDay"
What message? I don't get it.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/17/14 12:01 AM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Droll Dedekind:
My previous post seems needlessly critical, sorry.

To put it more positively: if LU gave short surveys that asked pointees about their previous meditation/spiritual experience, then success rates could be put into more descriptive brackets. Like, Average Joe Success Rate 15%-20%, ..., 10+ Years of Meditation Success Rate 90%. These stats would be more interesting.

I'm gonna give LU a sincere try soon. I'll post here if I have to eat my words emoticon
As their method has worked for over 1000 people in just a few years I think it is pretty safe to assume that among those people are pretty much all kinds of people with all kinds of backgrounds you could imagine. Personally I am more interested whether it works for not for anykind of people, background or no background. Like it was said before in this thread there are other stages on the spiritual path too. Stream entry is just one of them, the first one, realisation-wise.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/18/14 1:41 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
This discussion at Awake Network covers a bit this matter: http://awakenetwork.org/forum/100-dharma-refugees/7910-how-rare-is-enlightenment

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
10/18/14 4:00 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Thank you 'sharp sword'

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
12/16/14 6:06 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I have meant to get back to question Florian brought up, mainly the issue whether people have stayed awakened or has the awakening waned into a mere memory. I haven't reached all those 24 who have entered the stream in my guidance but those who I have, a majority of them, have been permanently awakened.

Here is a video of 10 of those people staring at you emoticon  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFQXdRkR7E&feature=youtu.be

- Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
12/16/14 2:19 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
That brings up some interesting questions, could be that different upbringing results in different kinds of issues and traps that need to be dealt with in different ways?  Systems designed and tweeked for generations for a specific culture and lifestyle may not extrapolate so easily to different cultures and lifestyles.   Even down to following instructions, did westerners not follow directions out of outright refusal or were they not able for various reasons (not even sure those two can be easily separated)?  Certainly there have been mind exercises that I have been told about where I could not seem to see in my mind  how to do it and others that seemed obviously easy to me but others could not seem to do it.  In my own mind, it seems obvious but yet I can't really explain to others why or how very well.  And there are many things that I heard that I could not grok at first and then later I was (seemingly) suddenly able to see it.  For a brief while I feel like a genius to have figured it out and then I realize it's been there all the time, I've  heard it many times but am only now finally getting it.  Somewhere in the my developement I learned enough to get to where I could finally see it but I could not tell you what exactly happened that lead to it.  We have people come here on the board all the time wondering about all kinds of strange experiences they have had and what it all means and for the most part, no one can tell them because there is so much difference from one person to the next.  We seem to only know basic descriptions of a few of the major signposts that most people have and even then, there is a TON of arguing over them!  Pretty amazing to think how little we know and how much more there is to know! 
-Eva
. Jake .:
Sorry for being unclear, yes, the Burmese method does directly aim at it; it's one of the traditions that uses that specific language and frames awakening in terms of Four Paths of which SE is the first. This is a tradition that has heavily influenced the culture here at DhO. Daniel's work and that of other pioneers in the pragmatic dharma scene could be seen as a response to the conditions which result in such low success rates for Westerners.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
12/19/14 4:06 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Paweł K:
your 'method' when generalized works on much broader spectrum of mind phenomena. I know because I use similar thing all the time to 'unsee' things. Did those people never had self and this method helped them realize that or did this method by itself caused self to collapse? What do you think, which is it? And most importantly what is purpose of my question?

ps. in this video last one is definitely most enlightened
ps2. your awake.pdf file need some editing as there are repeating parts of text in 'VM' dialogue section

Pawel,

Right, it does work on much wider spectrum. To be exact, one can first get firstfold emptiness and then secondfold emptiness with the same application but I think it just takes too much time to x-ray all the inner objects, mental and emotional phenomena, like this. See the quote below... Therefore, I teach tantric practices for secondfold. I estimate that on 1-2 years a small group of my students get there. Then I'm wiser whether it works or not emoticon

A quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi regarding how the Buddha supposedly has taught:

Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi, an eminent American-born Theravada Buddhist monk and English translator of the Buddha’s earliest discourses, noted, “I do not know of any discourse in which the Buddha teaches satipatthana meditation and systematic vipassana meditation [the main sources of practice for the mindfulness movement] to householders. Those are monastic practices, which normally presuppose renunciation — or at least a strong disposition to renunciation.”

>...Did this method by itself caused self to collapse? What do you think, which is it? And most importantly what is purpose of my question?

Collapse, yes. After careful looking, seeking and affirming the I-ness it is seen to be nothing. I have no idea what is the purpose of your question emoticon

Thanks for mentiong about the flaw in the book.

Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/7/16 8:30 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Updated statistics: 37 people out of 39 total, have awakened through Guidance to Awakening offered by Open Heart. That's 95%.

I recently talked with Loch Kelly who said he has verified 175 awakening during his career of many years. I am going through his book Shift into Freedom to get a better picture what method he uses to generate awakening.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/13/16 12:56 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Statistics update: 40/42.

One good aspect with great suffering and confusion that people nowadays go through, is that at some point one begins to seek permanent, not just momentary, solutions to one's problems. This people getting stressed, being confused because of their minds and deep identity crisis is not difficult to perveice in people. It is all around.

A good aspect with all this confusion is that as there is a cause for confusion, then logically thinking, there also must be a way to remove that cause. At this point mind training, that is meditation and especially awakening from the I-delusion step in to the picture. Stress may be easened with various practices which calm the mind and increase relaxation. We can say that we already have a culture for this as everywhere there are yoga studios, meditation- and mindfulness courses, eastern health exercises and so on available. We already know that stress can be prevented and relieved.

At some point however, one will notice that the mere reducing of stress is not enough anymore. The mere settling into calmness is not enough anymore. One will also feel that something is missing or that there is something unsolved. Many people have this feeling all through their lives, ever since childhood, even though their life circumstances may be ideal.

Here we come to meet a matter that is not yet familiar to our culture. I am talking about awakening of the I-delusion or enlightenment which is a central part of all time tested eastern mind training traditions. As with mind training, also awakening does not concern religious or dogmatic characteristics.

Although seeing through the sense of me (I-delusion) is not a known part of our yoga-meditation-mindfulness-culture, it is only a matter of time when it becomes a solid part of it. This is because the psychological anatomy, or better, anatomy of the suffering of man requires it. Mere relaxation or calmness practice is not enough because the stubborn sense of me is the most significant cause of stress and existential confusion of all.

Awakening and enlightenment is talked about everywhere. Eckhart Tolle's Power of Now in which he has told of his awakening is a best seller all around the world, along with other similar stories. So we already have somekind of a picture that 1. there is something called awakening or enlightenment, 2. some people have attained it and 3. it has a significant impact on how we experience ourselves and our lives with everything in it. It really is so. And we don't have to seek people who have seen through their sense of self-delusion far away.

If you wish to get more information about awakening go to Open Heart-website where you can find clear instructions for attaining awakening and can download a free Awake! -ebook that contains 9 awakening stories.

Thank you for reading,

Open Heart => Guidance to Awakening
http://www.en.openheart.fi/101

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/13/16 4:17 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

I am going through his book Shift into Freedom to get a better picture what method he uses to generate awakening.


That looks interesting, Kim. I just went and purchased the Kindle edition from Amazon.

Kim Katami:

Although seeing through the sense of me (I-delusion) is not a known part of our yoga-meditation-mindfulness-culture, it is only a matter of time when it becomes a solid part of it.


I wonder about this "matter of time." After all, these teachings have been around for a few thousand years now. Why, after such a long time, and they not part of the mainstream culture already? I like the answer Jed McKenna gives in his books. This long period of time without global awakening is a demonstration of the immense strength of maya.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/13/16 6:15 PM as a reply to Derek.
Derek
Kim Katami
I am going through his book Shift into Freedom to get a better picture what method he uses to generate awakening.


That looks interesting, Kim. I just went and purchased the Kindle edition from Amazon.

Kim Katami
Although seeing through the sense of me (I-delusion) is not a known part of our yoga-meditation-mindfulness-culture, it is only a matter of time when it becomes a solid part of it.


I wonder about this "matter of time." After all, these teachings have been around for a few thousand years now. Why, after such a long time, and they not part of the mainstream culture already? I like the answer Jed McKenna gives in his books. This long period of time without global awakening is a demonstration of the immense strength of maya.

Hi Derek,

Yeah, Lock's book is good. I has quite a bit of repetition so the book could have been sqeezed to a smaller amount of pages but anyway I consider this book among the better and most of all useful ones.

Well, sure the teaching of awakening has been existing a long time... But to whom exactly has it been  available? And with what kind of expression? Has it been truly understandable? Applicable?

Just a couple of months ago I went to see a well known kagyu rinpoche who taught a class to people whom I knew some of them had practiced diligently for over 20 years. They kept asking what emptiness means... And scratched their heads for rinpoche's answers... I was heart broken to see that. The rinpoche kept teaching as they usually do, doing fine, saying all the correct things but not being able to get the people to understand, not being able to transmit anything else except inspiration to keep going doing their ngondro and reciting the Tibetan texts... None of the people there were awake. I checked. This is just one example of my observations.

With all respect and love for the buddhist tradition, I agree with what Tenzin Palmo who essentially said that buddhism has failed during the time it has been around in making the world enlightened. I also butted my head in trying to understand a word the well known zen masters said and sat for thousands of hours... The problem was the same there as in the case above. Sure, in zen awakenings happen but it doesn't seem like it is regular. Rather it seems accidental and random. For some people, in zen, awakenings happen but to some don't.

I know many more spiritual practitioners and meditators, some of them extremely diligent ones, who didn't get awake within a reasonable commitment and effort than those who did. My conclusion is that there are few central problems with the picture:

1. theoretical explanation not being able to explain what awakening exactly is, what the anatomy of it is,
2. method in general not having particular technology for awakening,
3. technique aimed at generating awakening in particular being superficial or only vaguely relevant and
4. no guidance from an awakened specialist available.

There are many awakened guides and teachers out there but having some flaws in some or several of these previous points, the outcome is that very few students of theirs get awakened. For example, I have utmost respect and I'm a big fan of Eckhart Tolle, but I suspect that people who awakened through his teachings are extremely few among thousands who joined his teachings and millions who read his books, despite of his constant effort as an awakened teacher.

So... Has a really simple and direct explanation of awakening together with applicable technique to combine with it, been available to a larger world wide community? I don't think so.

By saying what I said I didn't mean that "everyone will at somepoint be awakened", no. I meant that as yoga, mindfulness and meditation is known today, which is mainstream, the same will happen to awakening as well. But even then we are talking about a small percentage of people being familiar with this matter. I recall a study which said that "10% of Finnish people have at least once tried yoga". That's mainstream. By saying that awakening will be popular, I meant something like that.

Here's a related quote from Loch Kelly:

"This is the reason why a certain direct path tradition, like zen-style
tradition says, "I am not going to tell you anything, I am not going to
say anything about this because I don't want
you to get attached." I think we are in a place now where we almost
need the general principles, us being westerners and having sense,
because we are not even able to get to ABC because we can't orient
ourselves, that there is something, it still seems esoteric and we've
got these other fantasies that we got from ancient stories and myths. We
might as well have a general map. We are putting this into perspective,
saying OK here's the impressionistic map: here's the basic principles
of human beings growing up, we tend to go into these stages, we tend to
develop this way, here are some of the doors you can go through but we
still we say, now that you got the general feeling of that (the map),
the first part of the map is: it's not this, it's not that, don't look
here, if you think it's this state or mind that's not it, you can't
understand it with the mind, the one who starts the journey cannot get
there... I mean, (all) this is in the map, I am just describing the map.

In some ways the map is about returning the thoughts
and the mind to their natural states, So they have a place. Some of it
is in the beginning and then when it starts it says on the map that "OK,
now we're going to go to paradoxical thought, so you got to be able to
hold two thoughts in your mind and then let go of this map as we go into
the nonconceptual knowing. So the last parts of the conceptual map are
the paradoxical statements: the seeker who is trying to get this
awakekening, cannot get it but it's already here, it's equally available
to everyone, it's simple but it's not easy because the mind can't know
it, the ego can't get there, the senses can't touch it, only awareness
can know awareness, only this no-thing can know this no-thing and yet
when that is so it will include everything else, it will include the
senses and the mind and they will not be separate. So that's the end of
the map."
- Loch Kelly

From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-3XWJcIyok


RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/14/16 2:09 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

1. theoretical explanation not being able to explain what awakening exactly is, what the anatomy of it is,
2. method in general not having particular technology for awakening,
3. technique aimed at generating awakening in particular being superficial or only vaguely relevant and
4. no guidance from an awakened specialist available.

Hi Kim,

Have you read MCTB ? If so, did it address the 4 concerns you raise ?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/14/16 2:13 AM as a reply to Mark.
Mark:
Kim Katami:

1. theoretical explanation not being able to explain what awakening exactly is, what the anatomy of it is,
2. method in general not having particular technology for awakening,
3. technique aimed at generating awakening in particular being superficial or only vaguely relevant and
4. no guidance from an awakened specialist available.

Hi Kim,

Have you read MCTB ? If so, did it address the 4 concerns you raise ?

Mark,

I've read parts of it so I am not sure if it did. I'd assume it did. Did it?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/17/16 7:49 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

My conclusion is that there are few central problems with the picture:

1. theoretical explanation not being able to explain what awakening exactly is, what the anatomy of it is,
2. method in general not having particular technology for awakening,
3. technique aimed at generating awakening in particular being superficial or only vaguely relevant and
4. no guidance from an awakened specialist available.


This is a good analysis.

The "traditions" are undoubtedy what have kept the teachings alive for centuries and centuries, allowing them eventually to reach us. But a tradition is like presevered fruit. It's made of fruit, but it's never as vibrant and vital as fresh fruit.

I also think #4 has been vastly overlooked in our literate, books-and-Internet culture. People would rather stay comfortably at home with their books and computers than go out and encounter a real teacher in person. In your point about the need for "guidance from an awakened specialist," I would put the emphasis on "one-on-one guidance from an awakened specialist" Sitting in a hall with three hundred other students is of limited effectiveness,

Some of the evidence of transmittability can be disheartening. Nisargadatta reckoned that, in all his years of teaching, during which time he spoke with thousands of people, he had only one student who had actually made good progress (Maurice Frydman).

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/17/16 4:51 PM as a reply to Derek.
Derek:


This is a good analysis.

The "traditions" are undoubtedy what have kept the teachings alive for centuries and centuries, allowing them eventually to reach us. But a tradition is like presevered fruit. It's made of fruit, but it's never as vibrant and vital as fresh fruit.

I also think #4 has been vastly overlooked in our literate, books-and-Internet culture. People would rather stay comfortably at home with their books and computers than go out and encounter a real teacher in person. In your point about the need for "guidance from an awakened specialist," I would put the emphasis on "one-on-one guidance from an awakened specialist" Sitting in a hall with three hundred other students is of limited effectiveness,

Some of the evidence of transmittability can be disheartening. Nisargadatta reckoned that, in all his years of teaching, during which time he spoke with thousands of people, he had only one student who had actually made good progress (Maurice Frydman).

Hello Derek,

Traditions, yeah. I have a bit mixed feelings about long traditions these days. When thinking about the number of only buddhist lineages, not to mention others, existing today, which are numerous, I am not that convinced of their ability in keeping teachings alive. There is so much useless baggage.

I've studied with about 3 dozen teachers and masters, both in and out the physical body, but my main teacher who really got me started, after a number of years when I hit my head into patriarchal zen, was an American housewife, a liberated arhat and a mystic of hardcore caliber. Her name was Sivakami and she was very private person. She left her body five years ago in 2010. She got her initial transmission from Yogananda's student back in 1976, when she was 36 or 37 years old. The second time she sat down to practice those techniques she had learned, she spent 10 hours in immersion and during the next 4 months that same kept happening everyday. It was tough on her body as her mind was completely transformed, all her personal karmas burned. So, she got her initiation from a physical teacher in a lineage (which by the way was started 3 generations earlier by a non-physical master called Babaji) but after that initial samadhi streak, she started having non-physical teachers and masters visit her both when awake and when asleep. Lama Thubten Yeshe, after he left his body the previous time, was one of them. He offered Sivakami to take his teachings but she kindly refused because she was never that keen about the buddhist vibe. She was pretty much a heavily meditating bhakta all her life. She also had the fortune to witness on two occasions how non-physical masters appeared in physical form to her. One of them was Babaji known from Yogananda's book, and the other one was a shaivite master called Thirumular, the author of the famous Thirumandiram, a shaiva classic. So, anyway through her initial contant through Yogananda's disciple, something clicked and she started meeting all these masters from many traditions in astral form. It sounds pretty wild... but to me what she later passed to me were of true quality... compared to any H.H. lama or guru alive today. Her mind and teaching was so juicy, fresh and delicious. That freshness didn't come from a tradition that had been kept alive for centuries in a physical form but came from these non-physical mahasiddhas, mostly Babaji and Mular.

So it turned out later that I also had a karmic link to these masters who asked Sivakami to teach. It was her who re-initiated me into this congregation of masters which in turn enabled me to initiate my work, part of which is about helping people get awakened. Like I've said before I didn't learn the two part method that I use when guiding people from any living teacher. It came to me intuitively, a memory from past lives. Later I read they use the same formula in some lineage of dzogchen (unfortunately I don't remember in which one, I hope I can find some dzogchen specialist who'd know)... So fast forward to this day... I've studied, worked and received transmission from many non-physical masters, yogis and buddhas. I felt for years that I wanted to find a rinpoche or some H.H. lama to study with but I don't feel like that anymore because buddhas in the physical are so extremely rare. So what all these traditions out there can offer is quite limited and rarely of great quality, I feel.

I didn't mean to babble and sorry for keeping so long but I just wanted to say this as "traditions that keep the teachings alive" don't always mean "just physical". Maybe I'll add my two cents on the previous lives thread in relation to what I started here.

>People would rather stay comfortably at home with their books and computers than go out and encounter a real teacher in person. In your
point about the need for "guidance from an awakened specialist," I would put the emphasis on "one-on-one guidance from an awakened specialist" Sitting in a hall with three hundred other students is of limited effectiveness.

I've taught a few pointing out weekends aiming at awakening. And of course about 150 other weekend courses on tantric yoga (Tibetan Heart Yoga) and so on. When it comes to direct pointing aimed to generate awakening I actually prefer one-on-one emailing as it's so much easier to dialoque that way and easier to accommodate. If I wildly imagine (I have to because here in Finland I'm lucky if 5 people show up) and put myself in front of 300 people sitting in a large hall waiting for direct pointing, yeah, I don't think it is the best possible situation for that. Even Tulku Urgyen couldn't do it for crowds. So I agree that it's better to teach something else when meeting groups in person, especially large crowds. And of course there is the exception...

A few months ago I was asked to give a speech in this awakening seminar (Havahdu Seminaari 2015) in Helsinki, Finland. My style is that I never merely lecture, I taught them the two part awakening formula instead during the 30 minutes of my time. About 100 people were there. And one person got awakened, when she had repeated the formula at home that same evening. She contacted me some days later to ask what had happened to her and after a careful examination, I verified it.

>Some of the evidence of transmittability can be disheartening. Nisargadatta reckoned that, in all his years of teaching, during which time he spoke with thousands of people, he had only one student who had actually made good progress (Maurice Frydman).

Just recently I saw an old video of Nisargadatta giving satsang. The English translation that was given by someone there was sheer horror... Nisargadatta was shouting like a madman while smoking cigarettes (a total bad ass, I always have utmost respect for things like that, ha) while this student of his tried to translate... And didn't manage to do a good job. Yeah. I think this question of language has been a big problem in history and it still is. The verbal expression should always be in plain language because when it's not and it's poetic or something as wild as in zen, the moment it is begun to be translated, things start going wrong, delayed and unnecessarily difficult. Then you might end up scratching your head for years and years thinking that "We are really at it now!".

This is not related to awakening but I recall a story of astanga yoga guru Pattabhi Jois and one of his early western students, John Scott. It took John and his friend 3 years to figure out that Jois' was counting numbers when he lead a class. In the vinyasa style they count numbers to keep count when doing movements and postures. They had thought that he was saying the names of the postures, that trini/three was something like a downward dog pose and so on. Just an example. Always ask, clarify, make sure, you know.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/17/16 6:14 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:

I didn't mean to babble and sorry for keeping so long


No problem. Your posts are very interesting.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/18/16 10:38 AM as a reply to Derek.
Derek:
Kim Katami:

I didn't mean to babble and sorry for keeping so long
No problem. Your posts are very interesting.
Well, thank you.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/18/16 11:50 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim,

How does your version of awakening/stream entry relate to suffering? How much suffering is released upon awakening? How much craving/desire?

The Buddha apparently said that upon stream entry the amount of suffering that goes away is comparable to a large mountain. While the amount of suffering that remains is only a few pebbles.

From what I've seen of LU, and other direct pointing methods their awakening does not come anywhere near (nor even here and the MTCB, this kind of dramatic reduction in suffering.

Why do you think that is? Are the direct pointers really talking about the same thing when they say 'awakening' as the old buddhists?

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/19/16 10:21 AM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed PKim,

How does your version of awakening/stream entry relate to suffering? How much suffering is released upon awakening? How much craving/desire?

The Buddha apparently said that upon stream entry the amount of suffering that goes away is comparable to a large mountain. While the amount of suffering that remains is only a few pebbles.

From what I've seen of LU, and other direct pointing methods their awakening does not come anywhere near (nor even here and the MTCB, this kind of dramatic reduction in suffering.

Why do you think that is? Are the direct pointers really talking about the same thing when they say 'awakening' as the old buddhists?
Hello Jinxed P,

Yes. I often compare the delusional psychology of our's to a cart wheel where the center of it would be "me", the spokes whatever mental and emotional content and the outer rim the subconscious mind. If you take the center out and the wheel keeps turning, it cannot help but collapse under weight. That's how I've experienced it and heard my friends tell about it. So if I would have to choose between a mountain or pebbles, awakening as defined and experienced here removes a mountain of suffering, for sure, no doubt about it.

I am not a big fan of LU even though on the other hand what they do is way better than nothing. I think they are a bit too hasty in their ways and views. There are strange views involved, like neo-advaita influences which can be very unhealthy and problematic in the long run. We have to remember that awakening is the first permanent stage of spiritual attainment but not by any means the final one. So, we need to put awakening into context. It is actually silly how many seem to think that, "Awakening is all there is and that's it, you're done". Not at all. One has to be very obsessed with being awakened if you don't figure it out pretty soon after awakening.

I am not an exponent of formal traditional buddhism. And I haven't received a permission to teach from any physical buddhist teacher, though I have from a few non-physical masters known from the buddhist tradition. So, I do not have orthodox buddhist authority and therefore I cannot say whether my stream entry would be qualified by the modern ajahn's or not. And of course the followers of orthodox theravada say that no, what I'm talking about is not according to buddha dharma. Maybe they say that or not, makes no difference to me or any of the people who awakened through Open heart. What matters is that the primary cayse of delusion, confusion and suffering has been removed.

Here's what people themselves said of their experiences. Translated it just for you emoticon

Awakened on their experiences

All who answered were awakened one year or more before. They all said
that awakening has brought a permanent change to their being although
there is still momentary attachment to emotional states in their
minds. Everyone of them also said that the effect of awakening hasn't
worn out. Therefore it is an attainment that is permanent and
irreversible.

More information about Guidance to Awakening may be found at the Open
Heart-website: http://www.en.openheart.fi/

  • What awakening has meant for you? What kind of change has it made in your
    life?

Answer: It is the most impressive and profound change in my life. There is no
longer a need to imagine me being this or that. No need to seek
explanations and relief from books, treatments and no need to
forcibly alter the ways of thinking in any way. There is no need to
fortify self-knowledge or define what I am, what I like and what I
don't like. It is enough to be. There is no need to seek anything.
There is a natural distance to emotions, thoughts and events that
formerly created a chaos in my mind. Being calm has increased in my
life and the extremes from the height of blissful happiness to gloom
and depression has dropped off.

Answer: Awakening has brought clarity to my life. Meditation is easier. I
feel more relaxed. Inner peace has increased. I understand the things
happening around me better. Acceptance and tolerance have increased.
I am able to notice the happenings around me in more detail as if my
ability to be mindful has come better. It feels as if the state of
meditation is ”on” all the time.

Answer: Awakening has dropped off the constant and never ending need to
search for ”truth”. Awakening has brought more humour,
relaxation, patience, courage and also sense of responsibility and
compassion towards others.

Answer: I've stopped complaining. Satisfaction has increased. Everything I
have in my life is enough and good. If there is some resistance,
unpleasant feelings or even anger, the first thing that comes to mind
is not that this nasty thing has to disappear of my life. Instead
this emotion may be calmly looked at, and seen from where and how it
arises and how it ceases. So there is no instant reaction, it can
merely be witnessed. It is a great satisfaction that nothing is so
serious or personal anymore. If one has lived 30 years feeling guilt
and shame, the dropping of that load is an immense relief. Life has
become straightforward, natural, even easy. Meeting people has become
easier as the inner voice is no longer judging myself or the other
person. The other person may have his or her space. A desire to
control things has decreased. Acceptance and trust to life and people
has increased.

Answer: After awakening, the inner peace and stability are found more easily
than before.

Answer: Awakening has given a context for the whole so called spiritual path.
In many ways it has brought lightness and clarity to my being. It is
easier to experience and accept everything that arises in my
experience as there is no longer a personal connection to it. There
are still many sensations that make my being feel difficult and
personal but they become accepted more easily. Life is what it is. If
there is an ”embarrassing” situation, for example, which
previously I had felt shameful about, now it doesn't feel so strong
and often circumstances like this just make me smile. Old fears and
all the thoughts in connection to them do arise but these are also
seen as natural ”bubbling” and they don't bring despair. Seen
from the outside, I may appear slightly absent but nevertheless I am
not, it's just that there is no hurry anymore. In overall I'd say
that my actions are more incontinent and creative. Being with people
is more direct.

Answer: Awakening was a moment among other moments but a big step towards the
right direction on the spiritual path. Through it I have been able to
live my life more in a state of truthfulness where the conditioned
thoughts don't colorize the direct experience. And this means
everything.



RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/21/16 7:52 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Related post. This topic began with Shinzen Young's quote which I have extended upon in a separate article: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5816154

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/27/16 4:49 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Stats update: 41/43.

”In our moden society, self-aggrandizement is regarded a virtue. So the fact that you have more and more greeds, and bigger and bigger needs makes you more and more of a person of substance in the eyes of the world. This is a fundamental delusion that all spiritual paths have understood. People desperately want to be happy, so they create more and more the causes of their suffering. If that's not delusion, what is? Human beings have this incredible potential... But mostly what they do with their human potential is destroy both themselves and others. Instead of being something wonderful and benign we become like a cancer on this planet, destroying everything. It would be nice if someone would come along and find a method by which people could awaken. Even the Buddha couldn't do that. How to collectively wake up? I don't know.”
- Tenzin Palmo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKoIK6pQMzY

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/29/16 1:55 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Stats update: 42/44.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
2/1/16 5:37 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.

Awakening by reading a book

The following text is a diary from a friend of mine, "M", who was supposed to undertake Guidance to Awakening. Guidance turned out unnecessary as awakening took place already when she was preparing for it by reading Awake!-ebook, which is available for free. Upon careful investigation of her diary and close up photos, I verified her awakening. There has been two
similar cases before who awakened by reading this book.

- Baba, 1.2.2016

M's diary

Hello, Baba. I have
been keeping a little journal since I started reading “Awake!”,
because something unexplainable happened. Would appreciate your view
on this matter.

I was laying on the couch reading from your e-book Awake.  As I was reading the first
dialogue with ‘VM’, my body felt funny and my heart started
racing, as if it was opened up or somehow activated. I stopped
reading at page 12. I sat up and looked around the room. I repeated
“Me, me, me, me..” several times, but I could not find that
little annoyed bossy victimized monkey anywhere. I had to laugh.

I do not feel impatient. Just strange and like nothing could knock me
over. I feel steady, like a rock or a tree. Thoughts bubble up and
disappear like dew in the morning sun. I do not feel particularly
happy or sad, just very neutral. Not in a passive way, but in an
alert attentive way. I do not feel the need to prove anything to
anyone like I have my whole life. It is like a beginning, not a
destination.


There are a lot of vibrations in my head and sometimes the rest of my body. A pressure
on the “third eye”, in the forehead. For the past 2 weeks, I have been trying to
ground myself more to not get too much anxiety and energy in my head,
but now I am grounded without much effort. The energy in my head and
body can do its thing. I don`t feel like seeking to get anywhere, but
whatever may come, I am curious about it.
Going to bed now.
Will see how I feel in the morning.



25.01.16
Getting used to this new perspective. Still feels strange. Things don`t seem to bother me
as much. I just deal with it. Still have to see how I react around
people/being social.

When emotions and memories pop up, I don't get so invested. I do, however, still have many strong
emotions, but there is more space around them and I breathe more
easily. In addition, I have noticed my jaw is not chronically tense
anymore. Like it`s not “chewing” on any stressful thoughts. So I
have less of a headache!


26.01.16
The cat threw up on my carpet. I just cleaned it up without getting
involved. I didn`t get angry with him like before, just curious about
if he is okay.

It would take me a lifetime to describe this
moment. But that is a paradox, because there is no lifetime. I say
“Me” several times a day, but the inquiry disappears into
nothingness. Nothing to be understood; this is not logical.
It`s almost annoying
how OK I am.


I still see patterns in my behavior. It comes up
like mud from the bottom of a lake, and it flourishes so that I can
see it for what it is. It wants me to defend it, but it won`t survive
long in the sunlight, because it`s like a troll in the old fairy
tales; it turns to stone and breaks.
I rest in humbleness
and gratitude. Sometimes I have to smile or laugh or cry, even at the
smallest of things. I want to thank everybody for being here.


I remember that I have been in this state before, but that anxiety and
fear took over then, so it did not last for long. Now it feels like
it`s here to stay. Or rather, the fearful self is not
here to stay and to control the
situation.


I spend hours sitting on the couch looking through the room, at my paintings, at
the cats, my legs, the lamp, everything. The only thing I "really" need
to do is eat. This state of being feels endless and it only
intensifies. The questioning mind is going in loops; asks questions,
not receiving an answer, gives up, lets it go, asks again. “You
have no power here”, I say, and laugh.

I am in great physical pain, but it`s okay. Being chronically ill is strangely okay
now. Not having a job or going to school is okay. Not having my
family`s support is okay now. Is this true acceptance? It just feels
like peace.


RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
2/4/16 11:54 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Stats update: 43/45.

One thing that keeps popping up in people's mails asking to be guided to stream entry, is their concern whether they have enough brains or practice background to be able to pull it through. As a response I just wrote this to one of them:

Don't worry about your abilities or disabilities, this is not rocket science. You don't have long history of meditation but it's not required anyway. Just a week ago a middle aged guy in the middle of divorce process while going bankcrupt, without any practice history passed through. Of course, he has far to go in regards to clearing his mind but he awakened for sure. It took effort from both him and myself but he passed through... And now soars like an eagle, based on his Facebook-updates. Haha. So don't worry, you'll do fine.

Cheers,
Baba

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
2/8/16 3:22 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I received a nice feedback from Karl about his awakening recently.

(paste)

Stumbling upon Baba Kim Katami's forum post regarding Guidance to Awakening on yogaforums.com completely changed my life. Or, at least, completely changed my perspective on life. Now this is a pretty bold statement, so what do I mean by it? Is all love and light? Constant bliss? Well, in short: no! So what exactly has changed? Why should someone go through the hazzle of analysing the story we call I? I am tempted to avoid the whole thing through a quote by Bill Hamilton responding to a question regarding enlightenment: «"Highly recommended. Can't tell you why." But that's not very nice, is it?

So whats the big deal? Well, first of all, after I awakened there has been with me a constant sense of peace, of silence, of emptiness. Every single one of you know this peace, but somehow it gets covered most of the time. What seems to be covering it is the illusory sense of self. After going through the guidance with Baba, there is no question that this peace is my true nature.

To say that there is constant peace, however, might give the impression that all is love and light these days, but no. Just no. What I am trying to say is that the peace, which was completely covered most of the time before, is now known to me. It still gets momentarily covered by praticularily heavy emotional states etc., but still I know it.

This uncovering of silence seems to have an effect on the way I percieve the different phenomena I encounter through the senses. Contrasted with silence, these phenomena are percieved stronger, with more freshness, more crispness. Sounds are so close! Light is so beautful! The snow so fresh! The coldness on my face when I am outside, the roar of the engine as I am driving, the faces of the people I encounter. Contrasted with silence it is all so damn beautiful!

When it comes to how I operate differently in everyday life after awakening, the most obvious thing is that it takes a lot more to upset me. Where before I most certainly would become offended by a comment, a statement etc., there is now less reaction. I scoff it off, not forced, not as an afterthought, just naturally, immeadeatly. Like water on a duck's back. Even when I do get upset, when I have slept badly, or I am just in a bad mood and that one comment just releases a chain of angry, irritated thoughts, it does not have the same force as before. I see through the play, so to speak.

There is one important thing I want to mention and that is that all this was not obvious to me right after awakening. Well, the silence was obvious, but even so I did doubt, as I have understood that many people do, if «this was really it.» Well, what I can say is that about a month later, there is no doubt left. This is really it! Unquestionably, there is a lot of work sitll to be done, cleansing the subconscious mind of the reaction patterns that form the basis of behavioral patterns, but there is no doubt in my mind that this is it.

If you have not yet, I highly recommend you to contact Baba Kim in order to go through guidance. In the weeks prior to my own guiding, I set out to follow the two-part analysis on my own. Needeless to say, without the invaluable skills of Baba, without the clear instructions, the direct pointing based on intuiton as well as experience, I quickly became confused and layed down the efforts. Guidance by an enlightened teacher is key.

May all beings awake!

Love,
Karl Henrik

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
2/8/16 7:04 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Paweł K:
it sounds like description of PCE

What does PCE stand for?

Added: Did some quick searching for PCE on this forum. I suppose it is a term associated with "Actual freedom" group/movement. Never heard it before.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
2/24/16 7:35 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Statistics update: 46/48.

Pointing out to Selfless Awareness

- You know, people assume that there is this "me" here, sitting at it's throne inside the head. All people assume that and when they describe themselves to other people, they describe the history of their life as relative beings, basing their story to the false assumption that there is a "me" here, inside this body, who really has experienced all these ups and downs. Right? The notion of "me" is the foundation of our life story. It's always, "me this or me that, me totally this or me totally not that", it goes on and on. There is a life story of happenings and experiences that each of us have. Sure. There is no denying of these happenings in this relative life. But what happens is that as we take this relative story and the notion of "me" so seriously, by doing so, we lose a larger context how it actually is. By believing in a magic trick, in illusion, we lose the actual reality of ourselves... And hence, we get lost. This is existential ignorance, the root of confusion and suffering.

- Our "true being" is not the "me", some sort of entity identified with the name "Kim" who is "37 years old", a Finnish citizen and so on and so on. All these defitions are our relative conditions that we as embodied beings have but that is not our true being, our true nature. Our true being, our true face, is beyond that. Our true being is the selfless awareness which cannot be measured and has no attributes. This awareness is always there in our minds, both when it is recognised consciously and when it is not recognised consciously. We may go through our whole life being completely identified with a limited sense of self, but this selfless awareness that is always awake and clear, never goes away. It is these also between thoughts and emotions. And in fact, thoughts and emotions are just a body how it manifests itself. So. Be smart. Don't ask me questions and assume things. You are in this trouble of being deluded and defined as "self", because you made an assumption of yourself as an entity in the first place.

- I'll end this with a variation of mine on zen-master Dogen's famous quote: To find our awakened nature, one has to study the self. To study the self, is to look at the self in order to see through it. By seeing through it, the selfless nature of all things is revealed. When the realisation of the selfless nature extends and becomes encompassing, only selfless awareness of clarity exists, without existing, or non-existing. Then enlightenment is forgotten, as it is the way how things naturally rest in clarity.

Baba Kim Katami

Open Heart,
www.openheart.fi

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
5/19/16 3:18 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Paweł K:
it sounds like description of PCE


Hi. My name is Karl Henrik and I am the "Karl" that Kim Katami quoted on awakening experience. I did a quick research to figure out exactly what is meant by PCE and from what I can gather PCE stands for Pure Consciousness Experience and a definition found on a link on DhO states that 

"During meditation (...) one may become utterly silent inside, as though in a gap between thoughts, where one becomes completely perception- and thought-free."


If this is what you mean, Pawel, then I am happy to say that you are completely off the tracks. If a PCE can last for four months and nine days, and INCLUDE thoughts and everything else that was experienced before, than maybe you are on to something. I highly doubt it. What happened to me during the guided awakening with Baba Kim left me with a permanent "experience" of something (well, actually its more a "nothing") that I was not continously aware of before. Maybe it can be explained a bit by saying that before my inner experience was that of a "flatness." Now there is a lot of space around the objects that of course are still there (irritation, anger, fear, positive emotions etc.). Also, before I was continously looking for truth, but as I now continously experience it, I need only practice karma cleansing in order to let it unfold and deepen (as it has on two distinct occasions). 

Thanks, 
Karl Henrik 
 

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
6/12/16 12:05 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Stats update: 63/65. Including a third case who awakened just by going through the materials, without a guidance.

RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings
Answer
6/18/16 3:57 AM as a reply to Karl Eikrem.
Pawel:
shoud not use teachers. have self respect

??

RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings
Answer
6/18/16 10:37 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I think what is the definition of doing things wrongly and having wrong view is to hope to get enlightened after your meditation session as a gift.
You need to do practice so long till you do a breakthrough in a single sit or pondering, atleast not do misdeeds during time between sits what could restart your process.

I have seen in real life i think only one solid awakening being, good unique energy i felt through concrete walls and wisdom level was "you can't escape from your problems, you bring them with you whereever you go"., "talking about military planes and how much they cost are irrevelant things"."ordinary living is okay, you can have man and wife relationship".

Awakening of this being was let holy spirit? to enter, by rising hands, location church. i don't exactly remember but it were very simplistic description.
What they say also is they speak with spirts or some sort of voice is heard what tells things about future and what to take with them where they go etc. Also miracels if needed.

What im wondering is its probably the spirit what inhibits the human body what provides enlighenment. These people letting holy guardian or spirit to work through them.

A food for thought is still in question what exactly the enlightenment is..

RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings
Answer
6/19/16 5:22 AM as a reply to Noah.
This is prolly true for them who not using centers above throat. Because i would like to say the same thing when i see one.

RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings
Answer
6/29/16 12:20 PM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
Read Karl's and Kim's article on scepticism towards awakening at Open Heart-blog.

I'm off to summer holidays for a while. Cheers emoticon


RE: Statistics of Sudden Awakenings
Answer
7/10/16 4:23 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
I think the things discovered will be there like a place you can return and see how are things. Maybe a demon has done a nest there what needs cleaning.

cheers.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
8/1/16 11:45 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim Katami:
Stats update: 63/65. Including a third case who awakened just by going through the materials, without a guidance.

Stats update: 69/71. Including fifth case who awakened just by using the mentioned two step formula, without guidance.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
1/29/17 3:15 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Stats update: 79/81.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
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5/10/17 4:11 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Stats update: 84/86. Still going well. Always wonderful to see people awaken.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
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10/21/17 8:35 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
During the last 3 1/2 years 98/100 have awakened through our guidance. read more abot what kind of project it has been and about the statistics presented. 

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2017/10/awakening-statistics.html

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
2/12/18 11:08 AM as a reply to Karl Eikrem.
Howdy Ho.

Still going strong here. Stats are now up to 130 cases.

Find the new version of Awake! Stories of Awakening and Dialogues leading to it -ebook here for free: http://www.en.openheart.fi/114

Cheers.

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
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4/9/18 4:27 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
A very nice story by someone who was first highly sceptical but then tried the Two-Part Formula.

http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2018/04/alexs-awakening-story.html

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
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7/5/18 11:00 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Hi Kim Katami,

I found this quite interesting, and I think you really are on to something.

What happened to the statistics Kim?

What happened to the people you have helped to achieve stream entry? How do people experience this? Does it change over time?
What happens to family life? To work life, is it possible to live a normal life after stream entry? Are the experiences the same?
What remains to do after stream entry?

Does the experiences change your perspective on classic buddhist texts?

Regards,
Ben Meijer

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
7/6/18 3:04 AM as a reply to Ben Meijer.
Hello Ben.

>What happened to the statistics Kim?

- Here is the stat data from the first 100 cases: http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2017/10/awakening-statistics.html
At the moment the number in my personal stats is up to 126/128.

>What happened to the people you have helped to achieve stream entry? How do people experience this? Does it change over time?

- Well, they woke up, just like waking up is described in many buddhist sources. It is an irreversible shift. Read these:
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2018/04/alexs-awakening-story.html
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2016/02/awakening-by-reading-book.html
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2017/09/marks-awakening.html
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2016/06/ts-awakening.html
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.com/2017/12/shanes-awakening.html

>What happens to family life? To work life, is it possible to live a normal life after stream entry? Are the experiences the same?

- It is silly, as well as a false notion to think that any stage of practice would not be suitable for a layman with work and family. But then again methods differ a lot. In my exp, no problem at all, the contrary in fact. 

>What remains to do after stream entry?

- Plenty!

>Does the experiences change your perspective on classic buddhist texts?

- Of course.

- Sorry for keeping this short, I'm not really active on forums anymore.

Kim

RE: Statistics of sudden awakenings
Answer
2/25/19 9:28 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
140 people have awakened through our Guidance to Awakening. Due to the high demand of guidances we are experimenting giving guidances to small groups. In the future, we hope to offer Guidance to Awakening free of charge. http://www.en.openheart.fi/34533