Hi,

my name is Pascal, I am 25 and I started meditating when I was 16. I never really read too much about this subject, neither did I get a teacher. I started with easy breathing techniques and wanted everything to happen naturally to me. I thought teachings will lead to believes and therefore could lead to wrong conclusions... therefore I wanted to experience everything 'naturally'. It was great... for a long time of my life and different things happen which made me think I was on the right way all the time. I hope I am writing on a homepage where are actually people who experienced similiar, because telling this stuff to people who didn't is just embarassing (because no one would believe me).

I will start from the beginning and try to explain everything. This will hopefully tell you at which point I am right now, because I have no overview anymore... I just know that something is wrong right now and I have no progress since years.

1. My first interesting experience with meditation was in the first week when I tried it with 16. I felt my body fell asleep as my mind was still awake. It was enough for me to make me more curious and it soon was easier to meditate longer. 

2. The second experience which was pretty interesting to me was some time later (a few weeks I guess). My body began to heat up and tingle and I felt like full of energy. It was amazing the first time, didn't know this was even possible back then.

3. The third experience happend 2 days after the second. My body got hot and tingly again and it started to feel like I could slowly move out of my body.

This lead me to more and longer sessions. But I always was to fearful to actually leave my body. Everytime I tried it felt like walking slowly to a burning wall of gelantine (no idea how else to describe). And it was kind of frightening and unpleasent to go further (not hurting but very unpleasant). Also I was scared if I would stop breathing if I actually go for the last bit.

4. I am not sure... but I guess I left my body 2 times by now. But both times I was too excited or frightened so it lasted about a few seconds... not more.

5. This was my unforgettable experience. I felt a shock, kind of like the energy thing in 2. but pretty fast and rushing through my body and leaving a shiver sensation. Immediately after I was totally clear of mind. I don't know how to explain this, but my meditation changed from "concentrating on my breath or something else" to "aware of everything at once". Sorry I can't describe it any better. I also kind of 'saw' the whole room I was in, as if my eyes were open and I had a nearly 360° view. I was so surprised that I checked if my eyes were closed and ended this meditation accidentially as I did.

It became almost normal to me. I often experienced this... not always but alot. Also alot of this 'shiver/shock' energy feeling happened in this state sometimes.
And now there's a point where I don't know exactly when it happened.... Someday it didn't happen anymore and it became pretty hard for me to meditate. I don't know why but something that was an easy thing to me became like hard work. I got frustrated, got personal problems and I meditate less every day.
I started to get depressions. I can't recall the exact time, but it is since 3 to 4 years I guess. I am not exactly sure because I didn't know I was sick back then because it wasn't as extreme as it was in the beginning of this year.
I tried different techniques, different times, different places. I also tried music, different diet, more sport, less sport... Nothing seems to work.

Since about 1 year I am not able to get back into this state of mind when meditating. It's even worse, I can't feel my body fall asleep and most of the time I fall asleep myself. I can't stay conscious anymore and I don't know why.
At the beginning of the year I was pretty depressed (so much, I don't want to go into detail) and also got paranoid. I felt like everyone is against me and everyone is plotting things or talking behind my back. I began to think that everyone can read my mind or that I am retarted without knowing it because I might talk out loud all of my thoughts without knowing it. It sounds stupid I guess... but all the time when I am in contact with people... Stuff happens that make me believe my mind is open to be read by everyone. This made me feel pretty bad and I began to think that I am not living in a 'real world' anymore. I also felt very distant... like I was looking at my self from a third persons distance. I couldn't (and still can't) concentrate my mind on one subject for very long... I am always drifting away.

I became very interested in spiritual and supernatural subjects again and read alot different stuff the past months.

I recently found the term "dark night of the soul" and found this homepage. I am not sure if my assumption is correct, but I might be in it right now. Since a few weeks my depression seem to reduce and I don't know why, but I am happy about it. I feel better but I still can't meditate without falling asleep.

I hope here is someone who read my wall of text and knows what I am in right now. I need help to get out of it. I just want to be able to continue my spiritual path but I feel stuck. I have no idea what to do next.... Someone?


Thanks for reading this long text in my poor english. Wish you the best!

Greetings, Pascal

You need the Patanjali yoga.

Nothing you have said is important.

You are experiencing Kundalini awakening in increasing duration and intensity.

It is simply an indicator of who you have been before and it is an incredible credit to the strength you have in your meditations.

You will not find help here for what you are seeking.  You must find a Yogi/siddha/swami or avatar because of what you have been and what you will be.

Enlightenment is knowing that all things are percieved through a veil. 

You know that the world of humans is one of delusions.  You have been enlightened for enough lifetimes that you do not need that process anymore.  You need awakening.  Even buddhas, except The Living Buddha, need to be awakened.

Awakening is Enlightenment for those who have never known Enlightenment before.

But your awakening is one that is too rare to find your teacher here.  You must understand how desperately you need to see a teacher in flesh.  Do not be lazy!  Sell all your things and go to India if you have to!  You will Die if you don't!!

When you wake up to what you are, you will see that you will remember everything naturally if only you know to trust your own Divine nature, that which guides your path perfectly in ways you do not know.  Love tells you what to do, am I right?  You love so strongly that you cannot go against it, correct?  Do you not see that it is not an emotion, as it is to the human world, but rather the knowing of who to speak to, when to speak, and where to go?  You have the wisdom belonging to Buddhas!!  Look back on your life and see how your love has guided you to this moment!  Wake Up!

If I ever see you tell someone that they may be crazy, even once in all the years that I will watch you, I will tell everyone what you are in a way that will ruin you.

Just to add a DhO perspective, your experiences seem to line up with the progress of insight as described by Daniel in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha.  At first meditation is just sitting there, maybe a bit relaxing, then one day you start to have special experiences (like your electrical zap and panoramic vision) which is called the Arising and Passing insight.  Then you begin to experience difficulty meditating and different unpleasant emotional states, which is called the dukkha insights, or The Dark Night, as you put it.

If you have been feeling paranoia for a long time, though, and your depression is causing you problems, it really might be useful to try some psychological techniques.  I've dealt with anxiety for a long time, and I can actually relate quite a lot to your whole story - a bit like reading my own experiences actually.  I was anxious before I started meditating, though, and I hoped meditation whould help me find peace of mind.  It actually can make negative emotions worse, though, if you aren't using your increased concentration skillfully - that's what happened to me.  A lot of these negative states are caused by ruminating on negative feelings.  Using behavioral therapy to dissolve these feelings will allow the mind to focus on more positive things, and then during the day your free floating concentration won't get stuck on some or other bad mood and turn it into a waking nightmare.

Jeremy,

This comes off as an unneccessary threat. Care to elaborate on your actual intention?

Nick (mod mode)

Firstly, thanks for the kind response and concern about my well-being. I didn't expect my experience to be "creepy" though. I thought everyone who meditates has those, that's why I wrote in the first place. If I would've known before I wouldn't have the guts to talk about them I guess....

You are right about the depression and social isolation part. But I am feeling pretty well and am socially active again since mid september. I am not sure if my depression is over, but I feel very good compared to the past 8-9 months.
Also I thought alot about the possibility of being mentally ill alot in the past months, but all people I talked too and asked about opinions helped to reduce this thought.

I should probably try to explain the paranoid part a little more detailed I guess. Maybe I am using this word wrongly. Those were my concerns:
- The constant feeling of being betrayed by others. (Talking behind my back. Feeling left out.)
- The feeling of being under constant observation. (Kind of like the truman show.)

Those two feelings made me think I might have some sort of paranoya. But I can explain the second feeling now. It came from the fact, that I experience these massive amount of other peoples reactions according to my thoughts. I guess everybody knows this feeling if you think something that another person 'might' think about a situation, and then suddenly this person acts the way you thought and kind of proves you right.
For example: Late at night, you walk a few meters behind a person/woman and suddenly out of nowhere get this thought. "It's late at night. I am male. She might think I follow her." ... Then this woman reacts this way. She looks back at you, maybe frightened. She increases her speed. Or she actually changes the direction.
This is the kind of thing that made me question my "saneness" sometimes. Because that's not an 1 in a few weeks happening (like years back). Or an 1 in a day happening. That kind of stuff begins to happen as soon as I am around people and stops if I am not around people anymore. It happens every few moments.
It became so weird. I can't even describe how weird because my deepest and most unnormal thoughts nobody could possibly know or think about in the exact same moment came to be 'alive' this way. 

That's why I questioned this reality and thought about being paranoid. In my opinion there were only 5 possibilities:
1. I am reading the thoughts of others sometimes.
2. Others are reading my thoughts.
3. I am talking about my thoughts without noticing. (I am not joking.. I asked like 5 people about this right now and everyone assured me that I am not doing that.)
4. I respond somehow to the thoughts of others.
5. Others respond somehow to my thoughts.
Also it's not always this creepy thoughts which happen... it's sometimes kind of good.

Once I worked in my semester holidays to earn some money. A female colleague I talked to, said to me how she hates it if one makes fun of another person.. A few days later, she had an pretty ugly angel figure at work (she won it at a christmas market or something). She hated this figure and made fun of it all day. Then she decided to make fun of one of her collegaues by giving it to him as a gift. Before she did, she told us how she finds it a funny way to get rid of it... making him (because he was pretty friendly) believe he actually got a present and acted kind and thankfully. She came back to our group laughed a little with others about him acting like it was a nice gift and continued to work. I sat there thinking how wrong she behaved.... telling me she hates people who make fun of others and does it herself. Suddenly she stands behind me and apologizes... saying to me and the people besides me that she thinks she did something wrong. Then she moved over apologized to him and came back. I was sure I didn't speak out loud because by then I already started to bite my lips to make sure my mouth is closed when I thought about stuff I didn't want others to hear. 
I know this sounds like an accident... but it's the less weird story I can tell which is still believeable.

Sorry for the wall of text again... but this explains what I mean by "paranoid". Well this stuff still happens alot... but I try to focus on good thoughts at the moment and I don't feel so scared about it as I did weeks ago.

There appears to be a mixture of insight cycle stages and some classical symptoms from clinical psychology/psychiatry in your description.  It is difficult to sort out whether these symptoms are due to a "mental illness" or due to the dark night itself.  This will depend on your ability to function and what happens after you exit the dark night stage.



I see symptoms of depersonalization as well as symptoms of thought disorder and mood problems.  I'm not saying that you are "crazy," but rather there are a few things that suggest some problems that may extend beyond the domain of the dark night itself that may indeed perhaps be caused by the dark night and only the dark night.  It's difficult to determine at this point.  If these sorts of symptoms get worse I would recommend you look to other avenues of treatment beyond meditation and vipassana.

You might get something out of reading the thread I wrote here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3373753

I will look that up, thank you.


I looked that up on wikipedia and must say it was pretty scary how similiar some descriptions were. Still there is some stuff I couldn't relate to though.


I hope you are wrong about this. I am not sure if I am brave enough to leave my life/family and friends behind.


That's alot of pressure you give me here. I am thinking about walking and leave my life behind since I started to have depression. But I have responsibilities for my family and I can only ignore them if I am 100% sure. I don't want to make them suffer for a mistake I did. If I will die because of this, I am sure there is another chance in another life.... I can't hurt my family this much. For now I need to find a way where I live.



Doesn't everyone know?


I don't feel enlightened. I don't even know how enlightment feels, but I always thought that the person will know if he/she is enlightened.... and I don't.



This paragraph made me shiver. Not this goosebumps feeling, but the shiver you get when you just saw/heard/read something important. Especially the love part... but doesn't everyone act after this feeling? Also the knowing of "who to/when to/where to speak to." it's like I mostly talk or get to know people who suffer deep pain... and it hurts in my chest and I try and feel it gets less when talking. But I do believe everyone feels this. Your text make it sound like I am someone 'special'. I don't want to disappoint, but I don't believe that. I believe I am like everyone else and I am just stuck somewhere on my path.

Thanks for the kind word. It felt pretty good to read them.

Greetings, Pascal

Your clarifications in this post makes me think that your experiences may be more along the lines of insight and less along the lines of mental illness.  Nothing you've stated here looks like a thought disorder (with the exception of maybe #2 and #3), but there definitely is some depersonalization going on.  Depersonalization is temporary and isn't that big of a deal, in my opinion.

Thanks I will take a look at your thread right after I posted this.


For now... those symptoms seem to be gone or at least way less, because as I stated I feel pretty well since mid September. But I will keep that in mind in case they come back.

6. You and other people are reacting to the same situations in similar ways because you're similar beings. Often your thoughts are in sync for those reasons, not because thoughts are being transferred from one to another. If a thought occurs to you in a particular situation, it's only natural that it should occur to them too (unless it's really obscure and/or way out of context, which I don't think your examples are).

If she could really read your mind, she'd know you weren't following her...

Ha, that's a good point.  Maybe it's actually empathy.

This were my first thoughts of course... But the amount of thoughts and the strangeness of them says otherwise. But it's not important it's not part of the problem I have with meditation without falling asleep I guess. Of course I told the most normal examples... telling stuff I barely believe myself wouldn't get me any further I guess.

Any suggestions towards my problem? Like a reason why I can't meditate anymore... or a technique which might help to do it again? 

I just stopped a session of about 1.5 hours. The problem is that I just don't sink into the 'trance' state (well what I believe that state is...) anymore.


Greetings

Hi, Pascal. I read this book recently. It tells you how to deal with kundalini symptoms and also gives exercises for proceeding safely.

http://www.amazon.ca/Enlightenment-Through-Path-Kundalini-Tibetan-Buddhist-ebook/dp/B00LXD6WXC

Pascal,
you are in DN i think
When i was in DN i started to think of Three Characteristics, this helped me to get out. Try to think of everything that happens in terms of that.
And try not to stay alone, see someone, go out for a walk.
Good luck