What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

jack, modified 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 2:47 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 2:47 AM

What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 12 Join Date: 10/17/14 Recent Posts
Hi everyone. I read the stickied thread of this forum, and it mentioned that the key to achieving the first jhana is to focus on pleasant sensations.

This is news to me, I didn't pleasure was a requirement for jhana. I always thought all I needed was to cultivate my mindfulness and concentration.

The issue is that for some reason, I have developed a distaste for breathing out my left nostril. I've seen doctors about it and they said it's not too abnormal to require surgery. Anyway, at this point i don't have money for that. It's not necessarily painful, it just feels clogged up and unpleasant to breath through. My sinuses cause my nostrils to alternate so usually only one is open at a time.

Is this going to be a problem to achieving jhana? Or can I learn to find some kind of pleasantry in the sensation of breathing if I spend more time being mindful of it?
Tom Tom, modified 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 3:26 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 3:22 AM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 466 Join Date: 9/19/09 Recent Posts
Samatha (pure "concentration") practice should be pleasurable/blissful, yes. 

Proper samatha should suppress the 5 hindrances of sense desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness, and doubt.  

This forum doesn't seem to talk about the 5 factors of samatha much (probably because the focus here is geared toward vipassana), but the 5 factors of jhana are vitakka (applied thinking)-vicara (sustained thinking) and piti (rapture)-sukkha (bliss) and ekagatta (one-pointedness).  

In the first jhana these 5 factors arise and the 5 hindrances are suppressed.  Each subsequent jhana eliminates the factors as a more and more refined level of absorption is obtained.  In the second jhana the forceful attention (vitakka-vicara) is dropped.  In the third jhana the piti (rapture) is dropped.  In the fourth jhana the sukkha (bliss) is dropped and the result is a very refined state of equanimity.

In practice all of this happens automatically whenever an object is selected and concentration on that object is maintained for a significant length of time.  Knowing all of this terminology is unnecessary, but helpful.

 My sinuses cause my nostrils to alternate so usually only one is open at a time. 

Is this going to be a problem to achieving jhana? Or can I learn to find some kind of pleasantry in the sensation of breathing if I spend more time being mindful of it?


I don't have any significant trouble with sinuses (though sometimes), but often I would notice that at certain stages one or the other nostril would inhale more air than another.  There is probably some kind of "meditative-energetic" correlation as to which nostril is inhaling, but I'm not sure what this is.

If the nose is not working for you as an object of meditation, then pretty much any other object concentrated on for long enough will produce jhana.  Another popular spot is concentrating on the belly a little bit below the navel.  You might want to try the belly as an object instead of the nostrils.
Tom Tom, modified 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 5:42 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 5:42 AM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 466 Join Date: 9/19/09 Recent Posts
Another popular object is a visual object called a kasina.  This can be a colored circle drawn on something or a candle flame or other light source shined into the eyes.  After staring at the light the eyes can be closed and then the after-image on the retina can be concentrated on.
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Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 5:45 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 5:45 AM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
The key to jhana seems to be stability of attention.  It isn't that you try to make the breath pleasant, so much as concentration itself is pleasant, and most people are watching the breath.  If you have any pleasant sensation anywhere, you can simply watch that.  If nothing seems pleasant, just watch anything at all - whatever captures your attention most easily.

My first forrays into jhana were accidental. I was a teenager, and I was trying to learn telekinesis (hehe).  I was staring at a psi wheel for about 10 minutes, and I began to notice how incredibly beautiful it was.  I looked around and everything was glowing vibrantly with color.  I didn't know what it was at the time.  Later on, when I started meditating, I liked to do body scanning - where I just placed attention on different body parts in sequence for a few seconds - and after a while each thing became very pleasant until the whole body was buzzing with pleasurable tingles.  From there concentration is very easy, so you can just go along for the ride.  It seems very easy just to stay with anything once you've stabilized the awareness.

So you can concentrate on anything at all, just remember it's the act of stabilizing your attention that makes the jhana, not any particular object or sensation.

A good way to think about it is trying to stop a train that's going down hill.  The movement of attention has its own weight and momentum, so the first few minutes of applying the breaks might not make a noticable difference when you first start.  Try not to think of it like you're vieing for control over your mind, but rather you're slowing it down with every moment of sustained awareness of a single thing.  Every time you notice you aren't concentrating, just hold the attention on something.  You will get carried off by the momentum again, but then you'll have a moment of clarity, and you use that to go directly back to the object.  There's no reason to scold yourself or anything because that's just keeping your foot away from the brakes.

Lastly, if you find your clogged nose distracting, that means you're already focused on it, so why not just use that as your object of concentration.  emoticon  Anything can become pleasant if you keep your mind open to the possibility.
jack, modified 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 10:45 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 10:44 AM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 12 Join Date: 10/17/14 Recent Posts
Thanks for the quick replies guys.

So it is not that the breathing needs to be pleasurable, but rather, concentration itself becomes pleasurable. Is this the general consensus that everyone agrees on to reach the first jhana?

So hypothetically speaking, if I were to choose an unpleasant or painful object, such as a severe itch or ache on my body, can jhana be just as attainable if I focus on those spots? Would the pain or unpleasantness turn into something pleasant just from the concentration on the object?

I'd actually rather not switch objects just because I've been doing the breath for so long, and it indeed is easier to keep my concentration on it because the unpleasantness of it draws my attention to it more. But I wonder if this is holding me back?
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Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 2:30 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 2:30 PM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Haha, well I just thought your clogged nostril was more annoying than painful.  I don't think you'll get to jhana by focusing on unpleasant things.  Acceptance of annoying things and concentration on something in the present will take you to jhana, though.  I was just trying to point out that it's the stable awareness, not the object of awareness, that's important.
jack, modified 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 9:17 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/17/14 9:17 PM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 12 Join Date: 10/17/14 Recent Posts
Oh it's not painful, you're right, it's more annoying than anything. I was just kind of wondering from a hypothetical perspective. Does somebody who has to experience a lot of physical pain have a harder time achieving jhana? And can something that is painful be turned into something pleasant through concentration, and jhana can be achieved by focusing on an object that is initially painful?

Thank you for your post by the way. The idea that the key is concentration itself that brings about pleasure and leads to jhana made things a lot more clear to me.
J Adam G, modified 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 10:38 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 10:38 AM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 286 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Lots of people don't notice anything especially pleasurable about the breath. Me, for example. The key is to find any pleasurable sensation in the body that isn't linked to craving and desire -- so don't use sexual pleasure or the taste of chocolate. 

Try doing metta practice. When it's going well, it's very pleasant. Your mind has happiness and kindheartedness for other people. This pleasure shows up in the body, often around the chest or face.

You could also try simply smiling during the jhana practice. No big toothy smile -- that will turn into a rather tiring muscle tension over the course of a 30 minute sit. What you want is a gentle "half-smile", the expression of quiet contentment. If you've got it right, it is definitely pleasant.

Believe it or not, getting the half-smile right may take some practice, and also you'll have to get used to the fact that pleasure isn't technically a bodily sensation itself, it's a feeling-tone that happens to be associated with given sensations. (I'm simplifying a complicated paradox that you'll end up having insights into sooner or later if you do concentration practice.)
J C, modified 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 6:13 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 6:13 PM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent Posts
Is there some reason you can't just breathe through your mouth or your right nostril?

The title of this thread reminds me of a Zen story where the student complains that breathing is boring, so the Zen Master dunks his head underwater for a minute, pulls him up, and says "Do you still think breathing is boring?"

rich r a:
Thanks for the quick replies guys.

So it is not that the breathing needs to be pleasurable, but rather, concentration itself becomes pleasurable. Is this the general consensus that everyone agrees on to reach the first jhana?

So hypothetically speaking, if I were to choose an unpleasant or painful object, such as a severe itch or ache on my body, can jhana be just as attainable if I focus on those spots? Would the pain or unpleasantness turn into something pleasant just from the concentration on the object?

I'd actually rather not switch objects just because I've been doing the breath for so long, and it indeed is easier to keep my concentration on it because the unpleasantness of it draws my attention to it more. But I wonder if this is holding me back?


I have noticed that focusing on an itch or a pain can "draw me in" in a similar way that jhana does. It seems to improve my concentration and help with insight. I never noticed it turn into something pleasant though.
J Adam G, modified 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 9:35 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 9:33 AM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 286 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
J C:
Is there some reason you can't just breathe through your mouth or your right nostril?

The title of this thread reminds me of a Zen story where the student complains that breathing is boring, so the Zen Master dunks his head underwater for a minute, pulls him up, and says "Do you still think breathing is boring?"



This story reminds me of a parent raising their hand to an upset child and saying "Shut up or I'll give you something to cry about!"

But maybe this is just me not being a fan of Buddhism's most militaristic sect. Or, more generally, of telling people to quit asking questions and just follow the instructions. IMO, nothing good comes from suppressing a yogi's curiosity.


So it is not that the breathing needs to be pleasurable, but rather, concentration itself becomes pleasurable. Is this the general consensus that everyone agrees on to reach the first jhana?
(...)

I'd actually rather not switch objects just because I've been doing the breath for so long, and it indeed is easier to keep my concentration on it because the unpleasantness of it draws my attention to it more. But I wonder if this is holding me back?

No, there is not a general consensus on this issue. Opinions vary about this. Some say that if you just keep concentrating, everything will eventually become pleasant and calm. Others, such as myself, favor the approach where you practice concentration with a set of sensations that's already somewhat pleasant and calm to begin with, and these pre-existing sensations deepen and develop over time.

Try both and see what happens.

BTW, what you're doing with the concentration that includes unpleasant sensations is combined shamatha-vipassana practice, not pure shamatha-only practice. That's a great thing. Just so you know, it's also far more complicated because now every time you move into new concentration territory, you'll have to understand the insight knowledges at that level before you can move on to the next territory. Again, highly recommended practice.
J C, modified 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 12:44 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 12:44 PM

RE: What if breathing isn't pleasurable?

Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent Posts
J Adam G:
J C:
Is there some reason you can't just breathe through your mouth or your right nostril?

The title of this thread reminds me of a Zen story where the student complains that breathing is boring, so the Zen Master dunks his head underwater for a minute, pulls him up, and says "Do you still think breathing is boring?"



This story reminds me of a parent raising their hand to an upset child and saying "Shut up or I'll give you something to cry about!"

But maybe this is just me not being a fan of Buddhism's most militaristic sect. Or, more generally, of telling people to quit asking questions and just follow the instructions. IMO, nothing good comes from suppressing a yogi's curiosity.


Zen stories like this are often metaphorical or allegorical. The point is not to suppress anyone's curiosity or tell them not to ask questions, but rather to remind people that it's very easy to take breathing for granted and to forget that it's essential for life.

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