There's no way I could be near jhana, right? This has to be all in my head?

I've only been meditating on a regular schedule for 2 weeks, though I have been reading about it for years. Just now, after about 30minutes into my session, I had a new and somewhat frightening experience.I felt my concentration on my breath getting stronger and deeper. Then for a couple seconds I started to feel an overwhelming feeling throughout my body. It wasn't bliss, but perhaps it could have been if I let it. Instead, I got scared and felt anxiety and fear. Then I was too confused and weirded out to continue the session so I ended it, and here I am typing this post up.

This has never happened to me. I'm usually a very grounded person so I am kind of shocked that I experienced fear. I thought I would embrace that experience, not be fearful of it. One of the main reason I started meditating again was because I wanted to experience something out of the ordinary, and now I am being fearful of it...

What do you guys think happened to me? Can it really be a glimpse into jhana? Or is it something that my head decided to make up?

It also occurred to me that it would be extremely beneficial to me to have a teacher. What is the best way to find a teacher who is knowledgable about jhana? I am in the bay area in cali if that helps.

Leigh Brasington is a knowledgeable jhana teacher. I highly recommend his retreats. You can ask him questions about your practice during the interviews.

Is thinking you've entered a jhana something your head decided to make up? Sure sounds like it.


Shaila Catherine is in Mountain View. She trained with Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw and has written a few books on the subject. You might try to attend her weekly sits.

What was this strange feeling like?  Jhana is exceedingly pleasant, IME, but piti is described in a number of strange ways in the progress of insight, which might be startling if you aren't expecting it.

It felt like a split second of possible ego-loss, and my body got some strange physical sensations.. like heat and chills or something, followed by fear of wtf is happening to me.

I experienced it again and decided to embrace it this time and it was fine actually! I probably overreacted because I never experienced any intense feelings from meditation before.

Thanks for the teacher recommendations. I will check them out. If anyone has any more, especially closer to SF or oakland, I would appreciate that too!

What do you mean by ego loss? Not to interrogate you, or anything, haha. People use these kinds of terms for everything under the sun, so I'm curious about what it means for you.

No worries. It's a term from the psychedelic community. I believe it means losing your sense of self and identity, and is usually associated with high anxiety and bad trips if the person is fearful of going through that experience.

I doubt that my concentration is at a point where I can induce that state of mind though as I don't have access concentration yet, but maybe I am able to reach it very very briefly.

This intense bliss has happened to me as well, twice. The first time I was frightened, and then the second time (years later) I was overwhelmed and started to cry. It was too much. I was on retreat with Leigh Brasington at the time, and he reassured me about it, but said subsequent experiences need not be that strong. They haven't been. 

Get ready for more and more intense, strange, wondrous, scary, etc. feelings! Till you get to the point when you just register the sensation and keep on going, it can be a bit distracting



Here's a pretty good list of Spirit Rock affiliated groups all across the bay area:
https://www.spiritrock.org/community

Not listed but loosely tied to SR: Urban Dharma (Against the Stream, aka Dharma Punx, Noah Levine's group):
http://www.againstthestream.org/san-francisco/sf-classes/

If you are looking for teachers specifically teaching deep states of concentration, Shaila Catherine, Richard Shankman, Tina Rasmussen and Stephen Snyder are the ones who've published works on the matters, so I'd try them first. Otherwise, any of the above would be able to provide basic instructions.

Interestingly, my first big experience with Piti was after I had read Leigh's essay on jhana and how to put the concentration on the pleasant feelings. It's less excessive these days, but only because I don't feel like going there. Feels like Piti can be pretty thunderous if I'd like it to be.

re: rich r (10/17/14 9:14 PM)
"It also occurred to me that it would be extremely beneficial to me to have a teacher. What is the best way to find a teacher who is knowledgable about jhana? I am in the bay area in cali if that helps."

Second that – a teacher who knows the territory can make a decisive difference.

re: Derek Cameron (10/18/14 9:57 AM as a reply to rich r a.)
"Leigh Brasington is a knowledgeable jhana teacher. I highly recommend his retreats. You can ask him questions about your practice during the interviews."

Liegh teaches a sort-of 'jhana-lite' – a good place to start perhaps, but what he calls the '8th jhana' is what most deeper traditional teachers would call the '1st jhana'. The stages 1-7 in 'jhana-lite' are more like shades of 'access concentration' in traditional terms, and he expressly avoids the term 'absorption'.

I attended a retreat taught by Leigh and Gil Fronsdal this last January. Had a great time talking with Leigh (both having computer software backgrounds, there's some resonance). The teaching, though, was not that didactic, not much 'guiding' through the experience. (Admittedly, it was an IMC/IRC retreat, so not that big on hardcore concentration/jhana. Leigh's own retreats are probably more in-depth.).

I questioned him as to the background of his approach. He gave references (Ayya Khema, Rod Bucknell,…), which I have been researching, and will be launching a discussion thread here soon, going into the history, theory and pragmatics of what I call 'jhana-lite' and other jhana flavors.

re: Small Steps (10/18/14 10:16 AM as a reply to rich r a.)
"Shaila Catherine is in Mountain View. She trained with Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw and has written a few books on the subject. You might try to attend her weekly sits."

I've attend several of Shaila's concentration/jhana retreats, and 3 of them with co-teacher Ven. U Jagara, who was instrumental in a decisive leap in my practice. In fact, there's a retreat scheduled, with Shaila and U Jagara teaching, for end of June - early July 2015 (at Ben Lomond in the Santa Cruz mountains). It's 10 days, but one can negotiate a partial attendance.

There's at least one other reknown concentration teacher in the SF Bay Area – Richard Shankman, author of the book The Experience of Samadhi. He's affliated with Spirit Rock Meditation Center, and, I think, works out of Berkeley. (I also attended a "concentration" retreat at Spirit Rock, but they didn't encourage jhana; i.e. it was even less than jhana-lite.)

There are others in the Bay Area with solid background in jhana practice, but I don't know if they actively teach it. One is Tempel Smith, also, I think, at Berkeley and Spirit Rock.

Tina Rasmussen and Stephen Snyder would be very good, but they haven't taught retreats near the Bay Area, that I've seen.

re: rich r (10/19/14 12:53 PM as a reply to Not Tao.)
"I doubt that my concentration is at a point where I can induce that state of mind though as I don't have access concentration yet, but maybe I am able to reach it very very briefly."

From what you've related here, my sense is that you're very close. There's just a certain trick, vis-à-vis trying too hard. The paradox is 'trying' as a certain steadying of attention, holding to but not squeezing, as actually a letting-go rather than grinding-the-teeth sort of striving.

Has to do with holding to the object (breath or whatever), staying, staying… coming back to it gently, again and again… staying, holding by letting go of all else, letting-go more and more, getting closer and closer to the breath, letting it get bigger and bigger, more and more… letting go, letting go… -- at some point, it will simply and suddenly engulf the mind, the mind will fall into it; the mind will be inside the 'sense' or image (nimitta) of the breath; and a certain very pleasant stillness, motionlessness. It's unmistakable, and it's wonderful.

Be sure and have as much seclusion as possible, away from people, traffic, cell-phone off, etc. (Later it's possible to create internal 'seclusion from the senses'.) Think safety, peace, away from all the problems, at least for now, this special time; the mind needs to feel safe to be able to let go into absorption. And sit for at least an hour (when possible); interesting things often start to happen, as if by themselves, after 40, 50 60 minutes.

Read Shaila's book Focused and Fearless, if you haven't already. Rasmussen and Snyder also have a small book with the details, but it's a bit more austere. Check out also Shaila's recorded talks, guided meditations on concentration – at the IMSB.org website, or at Dharmaseed; she even has some at Audiodharma. And other great teachers, e.g. Ayya Khema, have recorded talks / meditations at those sites.

Looking forward to the thread.


Would you characterize Ven. U Jagara's style of concentration practice as similar to Pa Auk Sayadaw's? I saw from his bio that he was also a monk with Mahasi Sayadaw.


Shankman's book was instrumental in helping me sort out and better understand the hows and whys of present day conceptions of jhana. I think he also leads a 10 day concentration retreat, but I think it only happens once a year. I also found some talks that he gave from a retreat at IRC with Gil Fronsdal, so perhaps he co-leads one there also.


I happened to attend a day long retreat with them at Spirit Rock early in the year. It basically covered the territory from their book, but a day long is hardly enough time to go deep. IIRC, they had a retreat or two scheduled for 2014, but looking at their site, I don't see anything on the cards for the near future. Perhaps planning for 2015.


Rasmussen and Snyder also have a number of talks on their own site, jhanasadvice.com. I found a series that covered the topics from their book, perhaps with a little more depth, including some Q&A. Their book is short, but the advice seems pretty straight forward. Perhaps there's more to the topic of "what should I do when this or that happens?" but that seems like it could open a whole can of worms for the uninitiated, and be of less use to those who've practiced for a while.

re: Small Steps (10/21/14 11:42 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)
…
" Would you characterize Ven. U Jagara's style of concentration practice as similar to Pa Auk Sayadaw's? I saw from his bio that he was also a monk with Mahasi Sayadaw."

Yes. Almost 20 years now in Burma with Pa Auk Sayadaw, and he's been with 'Sayadaw' (as Jagara refers to him) at 3-month retreats at IMS (Massachussetts), 2008 and 2011, where he (Jagara) did most of the dharma talks. In fact that's where Shaila got to know him, leading to Shaila's inviting him to teach with her in California (2009, 2011, 2013). I attended a talk by PaAuk Sayadaw once in San Francisco – Shaila took us on a sort of 'field-trip'. Sayadaw is 'fluent' in English, but his accent is tough to get used to. That's probably why Jagara did so much of the teaching, though he has a French (Canadian) accent himself.

Jagara has talked about his background a couple of times. As I recall it, he initially he exchanged letters with Jack Kornfield about becoming a monk, saying Kornfield told him the time he was a monk was the happiest time in his life. UJ then ordained under Mahasi, and says he spent 12 years with Goenka. Then to Burma / Pa Auk in 1995 and since. He is, however, an 'independent' monk, as he puts it, not officially bound to any place.

He's very approachable, with quite a sense of humor. He's the only real-McCoy Theravadan monk I have access to (when he's in town), including a couple of off-retreat interviews. (I go listen to all-day talks by Than-Geof whenever he's at IMC, but otherwise have no access to him.) Before leaving home, Jagara also did music, so there's a rapport there. In fact, once he noted in a dhamma-talk that the Pali term 'samma-', as in the names of the factors of the 8-Fold Path, also has a musical meaning of being 'well-tuned'. He used an analogy that, like an orchestra, all the factors should harmonize together; when even one instrument (or factor) is out-of-tune, or hits a wrong note, it stands-out (to the discerning mind) like a sore thumb.

He was here last Novemeber (2013), for a 10-day retreat, staying in the area a month or so, giving several talks at Shaila's sangha (IMSB in Mountain View, CA), attending some private informal get-togethers, and available for private interviews. He had, just prior to that visit, done a six-month retreat in seclusion. The effect was noticable, in his presence, teaching, and ability to skilfully answer questions at all levels. No doubt in my mind he's an 'ariya' (Noble one) at some level.That was the third retreat I attended where he taught with Shaila. At the first (2009) he was very shy and tentative. He's still a very unassuming person, but now teaches with power and strongly radiates Dhamma.

btw, 'Jagara' (with the first 'a' long), in Pali means 'awake; vigilant; watchful.'

" Shankman's book was instrumental in helping me sort out and better understand the hows and whys of present day conceptions of jhana. I think he also leads a 10 day concentration retreat, but I think it only happens once a year. I also found some talks that he gave from a retreat at IRC with Gil Fronsdal, so perhaps he co-leads one there also."

He may lead retreats on his own; I haven't seen his name in connection with the once-a-year 'concentration' retreat given at Spirit Rock, usually in August. It is an important book, though not exactly a training guide. When it first came out, he came to IMC (Redwood City) for a weekend, giving an all-day talk and book signing. I got my copy autographed then, as well as a copy I got for Shaila (sort of a dana contribution). The impression from his teaching, however, was that it was more along the lines of what I call 'jhana-lite'. In the guided meditation, he seemed to imply one could very easily get into a jhana state. (I could be wrong about that, as I'm used to the more rigorous jhana training of the Pa Auk lineage via Shaila.)

[quote=Small Steps]...
Would you characterize Ven. U Jagara's style of concentration practice as similar to Pa Auk Sayadaw's? I saw from his bio that he was also a monk with Mahasi Sayadaw.

P.S. Reading again your statement -- maybe you were asking if U Jagara practices Pa Auk Sayadaw's jhana meditation, or the Mahasi vipassana style, as they maybe perceived as different, even conflicting?

Frankly, at the level of advanced monastics, I don't think there's any difference. Pa Auk's writings are heavily insight-oriented, but using jhana practice integrally. In reading Mahasi's writings, and getting to know the monks in his lineage at the near-by Tathatagata Meditation Center (San Jose), they use jhana too; at the deeper levels their practices are not that different than any other Theravadan tradition, like, say, the Thai Forest ones.

I suspect now that the whole vipassana/noting thing, that gets interpreted so rigorously around here (USA, UK, and DhO), is in origin little more than a didactic tactic to make it all more accessible to Westerns and other modernist lay populations. Monks with long training in Asia (30-years plus) do a balanced, mutually supportive samadhi & insight practice, study the Abhidhamma, the commentaries, etc. as well as the Suttanta.

It's the students, the followers, the popular writers and journalists, not the Thera and Sayadaws, that identify with and debate over mutally exclusive categorizations of this or that aspect of practice. At 2013 Vesak celebration at TMC (happened on a retreat weekend), Sayadaw U Pandita made a surprise appearance there, gave a great Dharma-talk. Chatting with the American who translated his talk from Pali into English, I mentioned familiarity with Pa Auk teachers / teaching. The person stiffened up noticeably, fired back to the effect that, Oh, that's different; this teaching (Mahasi/Pandita) is the right one, I know that this WORKS! -- rather like trying to talk with a 'born-again' Christian; disappointing, in a way.

(When first going to retreats at TMC, I was a little apprehensive that they might sense I do Jhana and other practices rather then just following the (beginner-level) strict Mahasi instructions to note, note, note, etc. Then I had an interview with one of the sangha there, Sayadaw U Thuzana, and found that he was cheerfully more than willing to talk about hard Jhana practice, Abhidhamma topics, etc.)

Thanks for the well thought out responses and for relating what you know of Sayadaw U Jagara's background. He seems like a very experienced and approachable teacher. I'll have to see what I can do to get to Shaila and his retreat in 2015. I've been very interested in really deepening my concentration practice for a while now.

It already feels like there's a correspondence between samatha and vipassana practice for me, and I've only been at this for a few years. I can imagine that a monastic with decades of practice would only have the deepest appreciation for the intrinsic and intricate connections in all facets of practice.

I feel like I've hijacked this thread enough for now Thanks again.

Something happened in the past 2 days where I just regressed. I can't sustain a session longer than 30min, and I just really want to end it after 20 minutes. I will keep pushing, but it's getting difficult. Meditation is bringing to light uncomfortable physical sensations on my body, especially my breathing, that I didn't notice before and it's hard to sit through it.

Anyway, I bought Shaila's book. I haven't finished it yet, but I did read the part where she said to focus on only the tip of my nostril. Must I do this? Can I just focus on the breath as a whole, or on the abdominal region instead? Are there advantages/disadvantages to focusing on different parts or areas of the breath?

Nostrils / upper-lip is used by Pa Auk Sayadaw and others. This has the advantage that it's very subtle, encouraging close attention (i.e. concentration).
Mahasi people say focus on the rising and falling of the abdomen (for vipassana).
Thanissaro Bhikkhu says focus where-ever the breath feels most comforable.

So... that's one those areas where there are non-essential differences, like whether the nimitta has to be white light, or can just as well be a number of other phenomena.

Take your pick.
Probably, for concentration-jhana development, it's important to focus on something that can be steady, unmoving, encouraging and converging on one-pointedness.

For the discomfort, perhaps go back to one of the many guided-meditations by Than-Geof (Thannissaro) where he shows how to help get the body comfortable using breath, e.g. body scanning. His approach is 1) get the body in position to meditate, 2) then get the mind in position to meditate, for which he often recommends first some metta practice -- THEN it's easier to really get into it (whatever form of meditation you intend).

Sometimes one goes through phases, days of trouble for various reasons. For instance, were going through new moon phase right now, which might correlate with shakey energy on the deficient side (full moon with more intense instability). (Uposatha day -- Buddhist 'Sunday').

On the other hand, Than-Geof gives the possibly useful advice to not give it up, but perhaps change the focus of meditation -- perhaps not towards jhana for a while, but more vipassana. His logic is: if you just meditate when the mind feels good about it, you'll get insight only into the mind that likes to meditate, whereas getting to know the mind (& body state interacting with the mind) that doesn't like to meditate can be more fruitful.

Body-scan sounds like a good idea. Concentration on breath hasn't been working out for me at all lately. I'm kind of confused right now that I actually have to give up that type of meditation. I'll try my first body-scan guided meditation tonight.

I just can't handle all the physical discomfort. Tension also arises in my face that gets worse and worse, especially in my eye areas. So I try to tone down the effort and relax, but by trying to relax, the tension gets worse or stay the same. So I just ignore it and accept it and go back to my object, but the tension doesn't go away, it just stays the same. It starts to feel worse and worse as the meditation goes on until its very hard to bear. Why is my motor control so poor? Argh. Lots of frustration.

Hi Rich,

Check out my post here: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5623477

I got a "feeling of falling" after just 2 weeks of meditating which frightened me at first. Maybe that was similar to what you experienced? Anyway I was able to turn this into full first jhana (IF my experience holds up under scrutiny -- which is kind of the point of that post).

Anyway, my advice as a psychonaut is, don't be frightened of anything you can do to yourself. Or be frightened then do it anyway. When you get stuff like you just described, I say definitely see it through.

I also do all my meditation etc. with the attitude that I CAN get X result, that I AM "special", and that it IS definitely going to turn out all right.

Edd