Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation - Discussion
Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 11:50 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 11:50 AM
Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I believe that one of the things that lies between me and the jhanas is how much I desire them - sometimes it almost distracts me from the breath.
So I thought that if I come up with a list of reasons why meditation benefits me and, almost most importantly, the people around me, even if I don't go into jhana, that might make me more content and jhanable (see what I did there? ;D ).
My practise is mostly inclined towards concentration. It goes very much like this
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/breathmed.html
So, could you help me to come up with a few ways pre-jhanic meditation benefits me and others?
So I thought that if I come up with a list of reasons why meditation benefits me and, almost most importantly, the people around me, even if I don't go into jhana, that might make me more content and jhanable (see what I did there? ;D ).
My practise is mostly inclined towards concentration. It goes very much like this
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/breathmed.html
So, could you help me to come up with a few ways pre-jhanic meditation benefits me and others?
Doug M, modified 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 12:05 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 12:05 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 27 Join Date: 10/10/14 Recent Posts
Well first of all ... I feel ya' brother.
I'm getting a bit caught up in the sign posts of progress too.
But having said that my big reason for; meditation, morality training, and Dharma study ... is the beneficial effects it has on interpersonal relationships.
When one comes to understand that any unpleasant feelings or results that we would normally attribute to the actions of someone who wronged us... should really be attributed to our internal reaction... getting control of that internal stuff becomes important.
It really boils down to being able to notice thoughts early enough that one can make a decision as to the skillfulness of following through on them.
Would saying that actually help anything?
Would going there promote a compassionate form of progress?
Am I getting wrapped up in an emotion here?... cause that's my problem not theirs.
It has had the following positive effects in my experience:
Your milage may vary. And I'm no expert.
But that's been my experience.
I'm getting a bit caught up in the sign posts of progress too.
But having said that my big reason for; meditation, morality training, and Dharma study ... is the beneficial effects it has on interpersonal relationships.
When one comes to understand that any unpleasant feelings or results that we would normally attribute to the actions of someone who wronged us... should really be attributed to our internal reaction... getting control of that internal stuff becomes important.
It really boils down to being able to notice thoughts early enough that one can make a decision as to the skillfulness of following through on them.
Would saying that actually help anything?
Would going there promote a compassionate form of progress?
Am I getting wrapped up in an emotion here?... cause that's my problem not theirs.
It has had the following positive effects in my experience:
- I'm much less quick to "score a point" or say some "perfect" thing to win.
- Others are less inclined to play that game.
- Which leads to less conflict.
- I'm much more calm in the face of conflict that does arise.
- This leads others to stay calm.
- This de-escalates the situation much faster.
- Which leads to less conflict.
- I'm able to talk about upsetting situations from a lovingkidness point of view
- Others are more likely to listen as oppose to plan their next retort
- Which leads to less conflict.
Your milage may vary. And I'm no expert.
But that's been my experience.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 12:21 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 12:21 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Thank you, that sound really logical although that has not been my experience lately. Since I have started worrying less for consequenses, I have had more of a tendency to say provoking things which gets me into trouble.
Another one: Increasing ones concentration skills helps one with pretty much everything, including listening to others
Another one: Increasing ones concentration skills helps one with pretty much everything, including listening to others
Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 6:18 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 6:18 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Why not try meditating on that feeling of desire. Go into it and let go of the need to change it. Just want jhana with all your mind and body - you might find it's intensely pleasant. Jhana happens in the now - so whatever is happening now is okay. If you say, "I will only get to jhana when I'm not wanting jhana," then you aren't here and now, you're looking off in the future. This idea that you can't want cool things to happen in meditation simply isn't a part of reality - it's your aversion to the desire that's a problem. Trying to change how you feel is incredibly distracting. Be excited, plan a party for when you finally reach jhana. Make a vow. Do whatever you want! Be free of your inhibitions, haha, just let your crazy mind do what it wants. When you meditate, give yourself permission to be exactly what you are in that moment.
But to answer your original question, I think any kind of concentration practice can, itself, be pleasant for its own sake. When I used to practice mindfulness, I was approaching it as, "ok, I need to concentrate on the present so I can get to a mindful state and experience that lovely panoramic sensory field." But this would always mean getting past a hump where I was forcing my attention "back to the present" and there would always be lots of aversion to get past. It was very off-putting and felt like work. Then one day I noticed that there was nothing you needed to "try" to do. If you aren't focusing on something, and you suddenly realize you have't been, that itself is the attention - it does it without your help. I started rewarding myself for those moments, and then concentration practice became very rewarding - like a game. Every time I realized I wasn't on the object, the mind did a little celebration, so it wanted to keep going back.
But to answer your original question, I think any kind of concentration practice can, itself, be pleasant for its own sake. When I used to practice mindfulness, I was approaching it as, "ok, I need to concentrate on the present so I can get to a mindful state and experience that lovely panoramic sensory field." But this would always mean getting past a hump where I was forcing my attention "back to the present" and there would always be lots of aversion to get past. It was very off-putting and felt like work. Then one day I noticed that there was nothing you needed to "try" to do. If you aren't focusing on something, and you suddenly realize you have't been, that itself is the attention - it does it without your help. I started rewarding myself for those moments, and then concentration practice became very rewarding - like a game. Every time I realized I wasn't on the object, the mind did a little celebration, so it wanted to keep going back.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 11:58 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/20/14 11:58 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Interesting point, it is the opposite of what this guy says:
http://www.jhana8.com/meditation-tips/meditation-tips-for-advanced-students/
but what you say makes more sense to me.
http://www.jhana8.com/meditation-tips/meditation-tips-for-advanced-students/
but what you say makes more sense to me.
Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/21/14 12:43 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/21/14 8:25 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Well, what he says is valid enough, but it doesn't have to be a stumbling block if you simply don't give it a great deal of importance. Here's the thing, can you stop yourself from being excited, having the desire, jumping at every little tingle? If you can't, then just treat it like any other distraction. All distractions are created equal, just go back to the object, there's nothing else you need to do - just like he says there.
If it makes you feel better, after I had my first jhanic experience, I wanted to have it again pretty badly. It didn't stop it from happening. If you have an itch, do you stop and scratch it, and theorize about ways to get past itches, or do you just go back to the object? Thoughts are the same as any other distraction. Actually, I continued having thoughts well into the experience of piti and even equanimity when I first started. There are many levels and many ways these things can present themselves. If you don't consider it to be jhana with thinking, then just realize there are pre-jhanas as well that lead into deeper and deeper stages of absorption. There is no starting point or cutoff point, so the moment you start meditating you're moving smoothly into altered states. As long as you keep working on stabilizing the awareness, there is nothing to wait for. Slight calm builds into physical comfort builds into piti etc.
Even if you can keep half your awareness on something, you're going to be making progress. Haha, I just want you to be able to give yourself permission to let go - that's all it takes to avoid distraction. Let distractions be themselves. You can get to jhana on a construction site full of jackhammers if you want to.
EDIT: Actually, what he says in the second half isn't valid at all. He's basically just encouraging aversion towards excitement, haha. That's not going to be useful for anyone. If you treat your desire the same way you treat itches and sounds and leg discomfort, you'll be fine. Nothing to worry about, nothing to try to avoid.
I also disagree that monks aren't reaching jhana. In a lot of monastaries in asia, the monks don't even meditate. But where they do, and they focus on concentration like the tai forest tradition, very deep jhana is the daily reality for most of the monks. This is just a part of the brain - a normal part of being human.
EDIT 2: I was curious to test out my own advice for you here, to see if I was remembering correctly. What I discovered is that it's even easier than I was remembering. It isn't so much concentration in the traditional sense of the word as simply letting go of everything completely. Any concept of control or effort is what gets in the way. It's a bit like letting the mind win, letting the pain win, letting every bad habit and silly thought to win. Where the breath and the body focus come into play is that, when you're letting go, the mind looks for something to rest on. So you don't go back to the body and the breath to get away from distractions, you simply sit with the intent to rest on the body and the breath, and the mind has something to aim for on its own. This is all too complicated, though. It's very easy! Just give up control, let the bad things you want to stop or escape from win. I was shifting around all over the place and it wasn't even distracting. I eventually realized I'd stopped moving naturally and fallen into a very nice physcial comfort.
Anyway, I hope I'm not being too forward with these posts. I think I can go overboard trying to help sometimes, so sorry if I seem overbearing.
If it makes you feel better, after I had my first jhanic experience, I wanted to have it again pretty badly. It didn't stop it from happening. If you have an itch, do you stop and scratch it, and theorize about ways to get past itches, or do you just go back to the object? Thoughts are the same as any other distraction. Actually, I continued having thoughts well into the experience of piti and even equanimity when I first started. There are many levels and many ways these things can present themselves. If you don't consider it to be jhana with thinking, then just realize there are pre-jhanas as well that lead into deeper and deeper stages of absorption. There is no starting point or cutoff point, so the moment you start meditating you're moving smoothly into altered states. As long as you keep working on stabilizing the awareness, there is nothing to wait for. Slight calm builds into physical comfort builds into piti etc.
Even if you can keep half your awareness on something, you're going to be making progress. Haha, I just want you to be able to give yourself permission to let go - that's all it takes to avoid distraction. Let distractions be themselves. You can get to jhana on a construction site full of jackhammers if you want to.
EDIT: Actually, what he says in the second half isn't valid at all. He's basically just encouraging aversion towards excitement, haha. That's not going to be useful for anyone. If you treat your desire the same way you treat itches and sounds and leg discomfort, you'll be fine. Nothing to worry about, nothing to try to avoid.
I also disagree that monks aren't reaching jhana. In a lot of monastaries in asia, the monks don't even meditate. But where they do, and they focus on concentration like the tai forest tradition, very deep jhana is the daily reality for most of the monks. This is just a part of the brain - a normal part of being human.
EDIT 2: I was curious to test out my own advice for you here, to see if I was remembering correctly. What I discovered is that it's even easier than I was remembering. It isn't so much concentration in the traditional sense of the word as simply letting go of everything completely. Any concept of control or effort is what gets in the way. It's a bit like letting the mind win, letting the pain win, letting every bad habit and silly thought to win. Where the breath and the body focus come into play is that, when you're letting go, the mind looks for something to rest on. So you don't go back to the body and the breath to get away from distractions, you simply sit with the intent to rest on the body and the breath, and the mind has something to aim for on its own. This is all too complicated, though. It's very easy! Just give up control, let the bad things you want to stop or escape from win. I was shifting around all over the place and it wasn't even distracting. I eventually realized I'd stopped moving naturally and fallen into a very nice physcial comfort.
Anyway, I hope I'm not being too forward with these posts. I think I can go overboard trying to help sometimes, so sorry if I seem overbearing.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/21/14 2:31 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/21/14 2:31 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Thanks again, I'm always happy to get advice from experienced people!
However, I don't really get how giving up control would go together with my practice of pushing attention of breathing around in the body. Doesn't that mean I'm trying to control stuff? Especially the spinal breathing, where I'm not controlling the breath but moving attention up along the spine when inhaling and down when exhaling. But it does feel nice.
However, I don't really get how giving up control would go together with my practice of pushing attention of breathing around in the body. Doesn't that mean I'm trying to control stuff? Especially the spinal breathing, where I'm not controlling the breath but moving attention up along the spine when inhaling and down when exhaling. But it does feel nice.
Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/21/14 2:51 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/21/14 2:51 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
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Maybe think of it like this - you aren't trying to AVOID anything, you're only trying to look towards the breath activity you're doing. So when anything comes up, you aren't trying to escape it, you can just keep going along with your spinal breathing at the same time. Letting go is about removing resistance, and concentration is about looking at something - so the two don't have to conflict.
You can also just "make it your object to let go" as well. I think your best bet is to do what feels best for the moment, you can trust your intuition.
You can also just "make it your object to let go" as well. I think your best bet is to do what feels best for the moment, you can trust your intuition.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 2:21 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 2:21 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Ok I think I understand it now
I'm not very sure about this trusting ones intuition thing though. Again, why would the Buddha go into such detail in his meditation instructions if it actually was so easy as "just pay attention to breathing" or "trust your intuition"?
Or maybe the reason of why I don't trust simple instructions actually is that if meditation is easy then I'm just not good at it. Then if I follow complicated instructions I can blame them when I don't get what I want, rather than my own efforts haha
Unfortunately though, I actually seem to get pretty good results when following my intuition. My exoteric/sutta geek side doesn't like that...
I'm not very sure about this trusting ones intuition thing though. Again, why would the Buddha go into such detail in his meditation instructions if it actually was so easy as "just pay attention to breathing" or "trust your intuition"?
Or maybe the reason of why I don't trust simple instructions actually is that if meditation is easy then I'm just not good at it. Then if I follow complicated instructions I can blame them when I don't get what I want, rather than my own efforts haha
Unfortunately though, I actually seem to get pretty good results when following my intuition. My exoteric/sutta geek side doesn't like that...
Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 9:41 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 9:36 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.013.than.html
Maybe this will help. The "heartwood" of buddhism is "the unprovoked awareness-release" or "unbinding." To stand firm with only the heartwood left is to take refuge in yourself and your understanding of the dhamma - which is best translated as phenomena, or "the way things are." The buddha is telling you to trust your direct experience because that is , specifically, what trains you.
At the very end he is direct. He says, "Watch yourself carefully. Trust what you see. You are the one who knows yourself best."
Maybe this will help. The "heartwood" of buddhism is "the unprovoked awareness-release" or "unbinding." To stand firm with only the heartwood left is to take refuge in yourself and your understanding of the dhamma - which is best translated as phenomena, or "the way things are." The buddha is telling you to trust your direct experience because that is , specifically, what trains you.
At the very end he is direct. He says, "Watch yourself carefully. Trust what you see. You are the one who knows yourself best."
Ian And, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 12:19 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 12:07 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent PostsPål:
I'm not very sure about this trusting ones intuition thing though. Again, why would the Buddha go into such detail in his meditation instructions if it actually was so easy as "just pay attention to breathing" or "trust your intuition"?
Do you see what you are doing here? You are trying to intellectualize a process whereby intellection results in the booby prize, i.e., misunderstanding and miscomprehension which results in misperception of "what is." You are trying needlessly to complicate the uncomplicated.
You need to learn to trust your direct experience when it is telling you that things are okay. Which in turn means you need to learn to trust your in-born intuition. You are fighting a losing battle with your own intuitive processes. And you've decided that you, in your infinite wisdom, know better than your own intuition!
It is one thing to test your intuitive processes and find that they come up lacking. That's just due diligence. And it is another thing when the test proves that the intuitive processes were correct, but that you were unable, for whatever reason, to accept that outcome!
Pål:
Unfortunately though, I actually seem to get pretty good results when following my intuition. My exoteric/sutta geek side doesn't like that...
Do you see what you have written here? Do you see the dichotomy? "Unfortunately." That means you are unable to accept "what is!" You are unable to accept the evidence of your own direct experience and intuition! Now, how sensible is that? This insight really needs to be contemplated in order for you to understand the mistaken perception you are buying into. No one can do this for you but yourself!
There are no fairies that will come over and touch you on the head with their magic wand and say: "Now you have the ability to recognize the truth directly when you experience it." At some point, you just have to trust the evidence of your direct experience and quit doubting yourself. Isn't skeptical doubt one of the five hindrances? Guess what. That is what has you stuck!
Not Tao:
Maybe this will help. The "heartwood" of buddhism is "the unprovoked awareness-release" or "unbinding." To stand firm with only the heartwood left is to take refuge in yourself and your understanding of the dhamma - which is best translated as phenomena, or "the way things are." The buddha is telling you to trust your direct experience because that is , specifically, what trains you.
At the very end he is direct. He says, "Watch yourself carefully. Trust what you see. You are the one who knows yourself best."
Not Tao is providing some good advice here. If you try too hard to intellectualize what dhyana is, you will never be satisfied with the result, having doubt that you have understood correctly. That doubt will keep you stuck spinning your wheels in the sand, getting nowhere.
Here's a hint: Think of dhyana as being absorbed in an object. The object can be anything that captures your imagination and attention. Like the breath, if you are using it as your object for meditation. Have you ever experienced being so absorbed in an activity that you were temporarily blinded to everything going on around you?
Forget about everything else you have read and just try to become absorbed in an object of contemplation. Use your intuition if you have the courage. If you can accomplish this, the rest will happen of its own natural accord without you getting in the way. Keep your ego out of it. Just enjoy the ride when it occurs, and then you will have an idea what dhyana really is in terms of its ability to build your level of concentration.
In peace,
Ian
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 3:13 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 3:13 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I really should have added a smiley or something to the "unfortunately" part since is was all a joke: why would I think of progress as something unfortunate? But you have a point there: I should quit doubting.
About jhana as absorbtion:
How come the Buddha never describes jhana as being absorbed in something? He doesn't even mention ekagatta as a factor of the first jhana except for in very few very lately written suttas. To enter the jhanas he instructs people to pay attention and let go, but get absorbed? That must come from the Visudhimagga... Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems likely that thinking of the jhanas as absorbtion mightincrease chanses of attaining one.
About jhana as absorbtion:
How come the Buddha never describes jhana as being absorbed in something? He doesn't even mention ekagatta as a factor of the first jhana except for in very few very lately written suttas. To enter the jhanas he instructs people to pay attention and let go, but get absorbed? That must come from the Visudhimagga... Correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems likely that thinking of the jhanas as absorbtion mightincrease chanses of attaining one.
T DC, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 4:52 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 4:52 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 522 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
So you want to get into Jhana because you see think that will make you more peacefull, but you aren't having success?
Don't worry too much about Jhana states. The jhana concentration states are essentially a form of mental suppression, they basically suppress mental activity. While this makes one more peaceful, it is not a final state, and not the true answer to a meditators problems. Insight attinment is the true anwser because it provides permenant relief from mental noise, such as neurotic thoughts.
As for the people around you, just try to act mindfully and respectfully and you'll probably be fine. Don't worry about it too much! The beginning of the path, the Hinayana, is the path of individual effort in which one works on oneself first and foremost. It has to be this way in the beginning in order to develop because begginers have less mental power. Then after you develop a strong base you can open up and worry more about others (during the Mahayana).
Also for the Jhana's, consider this.. I definately couldn't access the jhana's before 1st path, and even then it was only after 2nd path that I spent some time practicing with them. So they are not essential to gaining the paths, and what's more gaining paths enhances your ability to access the jhanas. My advice is to focus on simple concentration or insight as you feel is needed, and let the jhanas come later, in a natural progression.
Don't worry too much about Jhana states. The jhana concentration states are essentially a form of mental suppression, they basically suppress mental activity. While this makes one more peaceful, it is not a final state, and not the true answer to a meditators problems. Insight attinment is the true anwser because it provides permenant relief from mental noise, such as neurotic thoughts.
As for the people around you, just try to act mindfully and respectfully and you'll probably be fine. Don't worry about it too much! The beginning of the path, the Hinayana, is the path of individual effort in which one works on oneself first and foremost. It has to be this way in the beginning in order to develop because begginers have less mental power. Then after you develop a strong base you can open up and worry more about others (during the Mahayana).
Also for the Jhana's, consider this.. I definately couldn't access the jhana's before 1st path, and even then it was only after 2nd path that I spent some time practicing with them. So they are not essential to gaining the paths, and what's more gaining paths enhances your ability to access the jhanas. My advice is to focus on simple concentration or insight as you feel is needed, and let the jhanas come later, in a natural progression.
Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 5:24 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 5:24 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Haha, calm down Ian, you can't help someone by shouting at them.
Yes, this is good. I used to explain it like getting lost in a good movie/book. You ever been watching TV and someone said something to you and you didn't even register it? The brain is doing the same thing in jhana, which is why using a pleasant object is helpful.
But he does! Haven't you seen all the lovely metaphors where you're supposed to suffuse piti through the body like water kneaded into a soap ball? Or how cool water permeates a lake and becomes a part of it?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.028.than.html
The Visudhimagga takes things overboard and says it's not jhana until there are no thoughts and it's completely formless and you have perfect control over it - but you can ignore that. The sutta versions are very nice and they lead to the Visudhimagga versions anyway.
This hasn't been my experience. The only way I've ever gotten to jhana is by allowing everything completely. Perhaps you can get to the same place by actively suppressing things, but that seems much harder, IMHO.
dhyana as being absorbed in an object. The object can be anything that captures your imagination and attention. Like the breath, if you are using it as your object for meditation. Have you ever experienced being so absorbed in an activity
Yes, this is good. I used to explain it like getting lost in a good movie/book. You ever been watching TV and someone said something to you and you didn't even register it? The brain is doing the same thing in jhana, which is why using a pleasant object is helpful.
How come the Buddha never describes jhana as being absorbed in something?
But he does! Haven't you seen all the lovely metaphors where you're supposed to suffuse piti through the body like water kneaded into a soap ball? Or how cool water permeates a lake and becomes a part of it?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.028.than.html
The Visudhimagga takes things overboard and says it's not jhana until there are no thoughts and it's completely formless and you have perfect control over it - but you can ignore that. The sutta versions are very nice and they lead to the Visudhimagga versions anyway.
Don't worry too much about Jhana states. The jhana concentration states are essentially a form of mental suppression, they basically suppress mental activity.
This hasn't been my experience. The only way I've ever gotten to jhana is by allowing everything completely. Perhaps you can get to the same place by actively suppressing things, but that seems much harder, IMHO.
Small Steps, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 7:13 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 7:13 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent PostsNot Tao:
Haven't you seen all the lovely metaphors where you're supposed to suffuse piti through the body like water kneaded into a soap ball? Or how cool water permeates a lake and becomes a part of it?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.028.than.html
The metaphors are quite vivid and lovely
Not Tao:
The Visudhimagga takes things overboard and says it's not jhana until there are no thoughts and it's completely formless and you have perfect control over it - but you can ignore that. The sutta versions are very nice and they lead to the Visudhimagga versions anyway.
I think the Visudhimagga also says that without a strong, bright, persistent nimitta, you can't get to first jhana. I am fairly certain I can establish myself in a sutta-style first jhana, but have only once or twice experienced the bright nimitta that 'sucks one into the vortex,' vis a vis the Visudhimagga.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 11:40 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 11:40 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Well... The buddha defined right concentration as the four jhanas. So either you do not have to follow all of the eightfold path to get paths or you haven't gotten those paths...
About other people: I don't want to feel selfish while meditating, that would be a distraction haha
About other people: I don't want to feel selfish while meditating, that would be a distraction haha
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 11:44 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 11:44 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Does he, really? He says you should be physically absorbed in the "factors"/characteristics of the jhana, but absorbed in the object?
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 11:48 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/22/14 11:48 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I don't get nimittas either. Why are they not mentioned in the suttas(or are they)? What are they even? Is my head tingling or my breath gettind pleasurable nimitta?
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 12:51 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 12:27 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
Not Tao: (as quoted by Small Steps, below)
"The Visudhimagga takes things overboard and says it's not jhana until there are no thoughts and it's completely formless and you have perfect control over it - but you can ignore that. The sutta versions are very nice and they lead to the Visudhimagga versions anyway."
Not Tao: BTW, can you cite passages where the Visudhimagga 'takes things overboard…" or where you read or heard this?
Small Steps (10/22/14 7:13 PM as a reply to Not Tao. )
"I think the Visudhimagga also says that without a strong, bright, persistent nimitta, you can't get to first jhana. I am fairly certain I can establish myself in a sutta-style first jhana, but have only once or twice experienced the bright nimitta that 'sucks one into the vortex,' vis a vis the Visudhimagga."
Small Steps may be thinking of teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw (others' teaching also, and possibly derived from him), which recommend the persistent white light as nimitta. Pa Auk also mentions different people can perceive nimitta in various other ways (e.g. sparkling, smokey,… c.f. quotations from the Vism., below) equally valid, but he prefers to emphasize the light. My own experiences tends to be sort of like one of those s/w hazy horizontal rectangular, fuzzy colored blobs in Rothko paintings, s/t but rarely forms of light.
Below is what the Visudhimagga actually says about nimitta – Chapter IV the most detailed, in the context of the Earth kasina; Chapter VIII dealing with the breath as object (nimitta is translated by Nanamoli as 'sign')
I tried search/find through the whole 797 pages for 'nimitta', 'light' and 'white light' – nothing found that relates them.
(If you want to read for yourself,download the whole book from:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/PathofPurification2011.pdf)
Visudhimagga -- Chapter IV
43… So he should avoid the seven unsuitable kinds and cultivate the suitable [covered in the preceeding sections]. For when he practices in this way, assiduously cultivating the sign, then, “he need not wait too long until absorption shall his wish fulfil.”
[THE TEN KINDS OF SKILL IN ABSORPTION]
42. However, if this does not happen while he is practicing in this way, then he should have recourse to the ten kinds of skill in absorption. Here is the method. Skill in absorption needs [to be dealt with in] ten aspects: (1) making the basis clean, (2) maintaining balanced faculties, (3) skill in the sign, (4) he exerts the mind on an occasion when it should be exerted, (5) he restrains the mind on an occasion when it should be restrained, (6) he encourages the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged, (7) he looks on at the mind with equanimity when it should be looked on at with equanimity, (8) avoidance of unconcentrated persons, (9) cultivation of concentrated persons, (10) resoluteness upon that (concentration).
[Note repeated emphasis of balance, and frequent implication of using discernment (sati, insight) as to what to do, when, how…]
109. Although unification of mind is not actually listed among these factors in the version “which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought” (Vibh 245), nevertheless it is mentioned in the Vibhanga as follows: “‘Jhana’: it is applied thought, sustained thought,happiness, bliss, unification”(Vibh 257), and so it is a factor too; for the intention with which the Blessed One gave the summary is the same as that with which he gave the exposition that follows it.
[I throw in this passage because it touches a major issue in some modern intepretations. I'm planning a thread investigating in depth this and related issues. The Vibhanga is the 2nd book of the Abhidhamma, which, according to Sujato's historical analysis, is actually on a par with 'early' suttas, and composed, even written down earlier than many suttas.]
Chapter VIII [breath as concentration object]
214. When he does so in this way, the sign soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon’s disk or the sun’s disk.
216. …. Similarly this single meditation subject appears differently because of difference in perception. It is born of perception, its source is perception, it is produced by perception. Therefore it should be understood that when it appears differently it is because of difference in perception.
218. And when the sign has appeared in this way, the bhikkhu should go to the teacher and tell him, “Venerable sir, such and such has appeared to me.” But [say the Dìgha reciters] the teacher should say neither “This is the sign” nor “This is not the sign”; after saying “It happens like this, friend,” he should tell him, “Go on giving it attention again and again;” for if he were told “It is the sign,” he might [become complacent and] stop short at that (see M I 193f.), and if he were told “It is not the sign,” he might get discouraged and give up; so he should encourage him to keep giving it his attention without saying either. So the Dìgha reciters say, firstly. But the Majjhima reciters say that he should betold, “This is the sign, friend. Well done. Keep giving attention to it again and again.”
219. Then he should fix his mind on that same sign; and so from now on, his development proceeds by way of fixing.
220. So as soon as the sign appears, his hindrances are suppressed, his defilements subside, his mindfulness is established, and his consciousness is concentrated in access concentration.
221. Then he should not give attention to the sign as to its colour, or review it as to its characteristic. He should guard it as carefully as a king’s chief queen guards the child in her womb due to become a Wheel-turning Monarch, or as a farmer guards the ripening crops; and he should avoid the seven unsuitable things beginning with the unsuitable abode and cultivate the seven suitable things. Then, guarding it thus, he should make it grow and improve with repeated attention, and he should practice the tenfold skill in absorption (IV.42) and bring about evenness of energy (IV.66).
[Note another instance of those lovely metaphors that Small Steps mentions. The Visudhimagga is a gold mine of metaphors and similes. A great resource for anyone who considers him/her self a 'Dhamma teacher'.]
222. As he strives thus, fourfold and fivefold jhana is achieved by him on that same sign in the same way as described under the earth kasina.
[Using the earth kasina at the first object, the Visuddhimagge spells things out in great detail there (Chapter IV), and in the succeeding chapters, going though the other 39 possible objects, brings out only what's perculiar to each, referring, as here, back to Chapter IV for the basics.]
"The Visudhimagga takes things overboard and says it's not jhana until there are no thoughts and it's completely formless and you have perfect control over it - but you can ignore that. The sutta versions are very nice and they lead to the Visudhimagga versions anyway."
Not Tao: BTW, can you cite passages where the Visudhimagga 'takes things overboard…" or where you read or heard this?
Small Steps (10/22/14 7:13 PM as a reply to Not Tao. )
"I think the Visudhimagga also says that without a strong, bright, persistent nimitta, you can't get to first jhana. I am fairly certain I can establish myself in a sutta-style first jhana, but have only once or twice experienced the bright nimitta that 'sucks one into the vortex,' vis a vis the Visudhimagga."
Small Steps may be thinking of teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw (others' teaching also, and possibly derived from him), which recommend the persistent white light as nimitta. Pa Auk also mentions different people can perceive nimitta in various other ways (e.g. sparkling, smokey,… c.f. quotations from the Vism., below) equally valid, but he prefers to emphasize the light. My own experiences tends to be sort of like one of those s/w hazy horizontal rectangular, fuzzy colored blobs in Rothko paintings, s/t but rarely forms of light.
Below is what the Visudhimagga actually says about nimitta – Chapter IV the most detailed, in the context of the Earth kasina; Chapter VIII dealing with the breath as object (nimitta is translated by Nanamoli as 'sign')
I tried search/find through the whole 797 pages for 'nimitta', 'light' and 'white light' – nothing found that relates them.
(If you want to read for yourself,download the whole book from:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/PathofPurification2011.pdf)
Visudhimagga -- Chapter IV
43… So he should avoid the seven unsuitable kinds and cultivate the suitable [covered in the preceeding sections]. For when he practices in this way, assiduously cultivating the sign, then, “he need not wait too long until absorption shall his wish fulfil.”
[THE TEN KINDS OF SKILL IN ABSORPTION]
42. However, if this does not happen while he is practicing in this way, then he should have recourse to the ten kinds of skill in absorption. Here is the method. Skill in absorption needs [to be dealt with in] ten aspects: (1) making the basis clean, (2) maintaining balanced faculties, (3) skill in the sign, (4) he exerts the mind on an occasion when it should be exerted, (5) he restrains the mind on an occasion when it should be restrained, (6) he encourages the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged, (7) he looks on at the mind with equanimity when it should be looked on at with equanimity, (8) avoidance of unconcentrated persons, (9) cultivation of concentrated persons, (10) resoluteness upon that (concentration).
[Note repeated emphasis of balance, and frequent implication of using discernment (sati, insight) as to what to do, when, how…]
109. Although unification of mind is not actually listed among these factors in the version “which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought” (Vibh 245), nevertheless it is mentioned in the Vibhanga as follows: “‘Jhana’: it is applied thought, sustained thought,happiness, bliss, unification”(Vibh 257), and so it is a factor too; for the intention with which the Blessed One gave the summary is the same as that with which he gave the exposition that follows it.
[I throw in this passage because it touches a major issue in some modern intepretations. I'm planning a thread investigating in depth this and related issues. The Vibhanga is the 2nd book of the Abhidhamma, which, according to Sujato's historical analysis, is actually on a par with 'early' suttas, and composed, even written down earlier than many suttas.]
Chapter VIII [breath as concentration object]
214. When he does so in this way, the sign soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon’s disk or the sun’s disk.
216. …. Similarly this single meditation subject appears differently because of difference in perception. It is born of perception, its source is perception, it is produced by perception. Therefore it should be understood that when it appears differently it is because of difference in perception.
218. And when the sign has appeared in this way, the bhikkhu should go to the teacher and tell him, “Venerable sir, such and such has appeared to me.” But [say the Dìgha reciters] the teacher should say neither “This is the sign” nor “This is not the sign”; after saying “It happens like this, friend,” he should tell him, “Go on giving it attention again and again;” for if he were told “It is the sign,” he might [become complacent and] stop short at that (see M I 193f.), and if he were told “It is not the sign,” he might get discouraged and give up; so he should encourage him to keep giving it his attention without saying either. So the Dìgha reciters say, firstly. But the Majjhima reciters say that he should betold, “This is the sign, friend. Well done. Keep giving attention to it again and again.”
219. Then he should fix his mind on that same sign; and so from now on, his development proceeds by way of fixing.
220. So as soon as the sign appears, his hindrances are suppressed, his defilements subside, his mindfulness is established, and his consciousness is concentrated in access concentration.
221. Then he should not give attention to the sign as to its colour, or review it as to its characteristic. He should guard it as carefully as a king’s chief queen guards the child in her womb due to become a Wheel-turning Monarch, or as a farmer guards the ripening crops; and he should avoid the seven unsuitable things beginning with the unsuitable abode and cultivate the seven suitable things. Then, guarding it thus, he should make it grow and improve with repeated attention, and he should practice the tenfold skill in absorption (IV.42) and bring about evenness of energy (IV.66).
[Note another instance of those lovely metaphors that Small Steps mentions. The Visudhimagga is a gold mine of metaphors and similes. A great resource for anyone who considers him/her self a 'Dhamma teacher'.]
222. As he strives thus, fourfold and fivefold jhana is achieved by him on that same sign in the same way as described under the earth kasina.
[Using the earth kasina at the first object, the Visuddhimagge spells things out in great detail there (Chapter IV), and in the succeeding chapters, going though the other 39 possible objects, brings out only what's perculiar to each, referring, as here, back to Chapter IV for the basics.]
J C, modified 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 1:00 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 1:00 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent PostsNot Tao:
Why not try meditating on that feeling of desire. Go into it and let go of the need to change it. Just want jhana with all your mind and body - you might find it's intensely pleasant. Jhana happens in the now - so whatever is happening now is okay. If you say, "I will only get to jhana when I'm not wanting jhana," then you aren't here and now, you're looking off in the future. This idea that you can't want cool things to happen in meditation simply isn't a part of reality - it's your aversion to the desire that's a problem. Trying to change how you feel is incredibly distracting. Be excited, plan a party for when you finally reach jhana. Make a vow. Do whatever you want! Be free of your inhibitions, haha, just let your crazy mind do what it wants. When you meditate, give yourself permission to be exactly what you are in that moment.
But to answer your original question, I think any kind of concentration practice can, itself, be pleasant for its own sake. When I used to practice mindfulness, I was approaching it as, "ok, I need to concentrate on the present so I can get to a mindful state and experience that lovely panoramic sensory field." But this would always mean getting past a hump where I was forcing my attention "back to the present" and there would always be lots of aversion to get past. It was very off-putting and felt like work. Then one day I noticed that there was nothing you needed to "try" to do. If you aren't focusing on something, and you suddenly realize you have't been, that itself is the attention - it does it without your help. I started rewarding myself for those moments, and then concentration practice became very rewarding - like a game. Every time I realized I wasn't on the object, the mind did a little celebration, so it wanted to keep going back.
But to answer your original question, I think any kind of concentration practice can, itself, be pleasant for its own sake. When I used to practice mindfulness, I was approaching it as, "ok, I need to concentrate on the present so I can get to a mindful state and experience that lovely panoramic sensory field." But this would always mean getting past a hump where I was forcing my attention "back to the present" and there would always be lots of aversion to get past. It was very off-putting and felt like work. Then one day I noticed that there was nothing you needed to "try" to do. If you aren't focusing on something, and you suddenly realize you have't been, that itself is the attention - it does it without your help. I started rewarding myself for those moments, and then concentration practice became very rewarding - like a game. Every time I realized I wasn't on the object, the mind did a little celebration, so it wanted to keep going back.
This is an incredibly helpful post Thank you!
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 11:56 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 11:56 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsNot Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 1:34 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 1:34 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
I think Daniel uses the term pretty loosely - he and Kenneth talk about manufacturing different jhanas and a set of "pureland jhanas" that aren't mentioned in the suttas or commentaries.
J C, modified 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 10:53 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/24/14 10:53 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent PostsPål:
Not Tao and T DC, you seem too have different definitions of jhana. Which one is the MCTB one?
Not Tao's. T DC has a different viewpoint from MCTB.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 12:23 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 12:23 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsT DC, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 12:28 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 12:28 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 522 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
I don't think one of us is right. Jhana is Jhana! If you experience the progressive stages, it is pretty clear. Personally all my Jhana experience is primarily based on MCTB, the section on Jhanas was my resource to attain the Jhanas.
To clarify on my earlier post, Jhana is indeed absortion. This absorbtion results in the suppression of other mental activity. When you 'lock in' to a jhana, your mental state is wholey absorbed in it; both making concentration efortless, as well as boosting it. Because you are absorbed in the state, other mental factors are excluded from your awareness, which I reffered to as supression.
To clarify on my earlier post, Jhana is indeed absortion. This absorbtion results in the suppression of other mental activity. When you 'lock in' to a jhana, your mental state is wholey absorbed in it; both making concentration efortless, as well as boosting it. Because you are absorbed in the state, other mental factors are excluded from your awareness, which I reffered to as supression.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 9:29 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 9:29 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsJ C, modified 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 6:09 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 6:09 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent PostsPål:
Hm.. Does this mean you can get to jhana by watching tv?
You'd have to somehow solidify the constantly changing pixels into one thing.
T DC, modified 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 6:38 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/28/14 6:38 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 522 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent PostsPål:
Hm.. Does this mean you can get to jhana by watching tv?
Actually I think getting absorbed in TV is the opposite of jhana. With jhana, the object of absorbtion is internal, it is one's own mind. Not only is TV an external object, but getting absorbed in TV generally involves a decrease in awareness in my experience. Jhana is a blissfull internal state in which concentration becomes efortless, and awareness is strengthened and clarified.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 1:41 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 1:41 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
So the body is internal? Where do you draw the line between external and internal? Do you mean that the hondrances can't fall away if one focuses on an external object?
T DC, modified 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 1:15 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 1:15 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 522 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent PostsPål:
So the body is internal? Where do you draw the line between external and internal? Do you mean that the hondrances can't fall away if one focuses on an external object?
The way this works is that you are meditating, trying to concentrate in an ordinary mind space involved with the 5 hindrances, when suddenly you slip into a concentrated awareness which is both effortless and blisfull. It is effortless because, where as before you were trying to concentrate, now your mind is concentrating naturally. This in turn is blissful because the hindances are removed, and one is concentrating without effort.
By external objects here, I mean objects that are external to the state of jhana. The jhana states are states of being absorbed in one's own awareness, so any thing else, any object of awareness including thoughts could be considered external.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 10:41 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/29/14 10:33 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
T DC (10/29/14 1:15 PM as a reply to Pål.) put it pretty well. Here are some thoughts to add a dimension or two:
re: T DC (10/28/14 6:38 PM as a reply to Pål. )
"Actually I think getting absorbed in TV is the opposite of jhana. With jhana, the object of absorbtion is internal, it is one's own mind. Not only is TV an external object, but getting absorbed in TV generally involves a decrease in awareness in my experience. Jhana is a blissfull internal state in which concentration becomes efortless, and awareness is strengthened and clarified."
Way back in the 'golden age' of psychodelics (aka 'entheogens'), i.e. in Berkeley Calif, late 1960's, someone taught me an interesting trick: turn the TV to a non-channel, with a screen full of churning, scintilating dots, and put you faceright up to it, a couple of inches away. This can induce a visualexperience that's both 'immeasurable' – unbounded space with nosense of perspective or distance – and oddly static, a kind ofabsorption in a kind of kasina. It helped, back then (before having any inkling of jhana), also to be moderately high on LSD or the like. Not to recommend that here – jhana-s are more difficult to achieve, but much more rewarding.
re: Pål (10/29/14 1:41 AM as a reply to T DC.)
" So the body is internal? Where do you draw the line between external and internal? Do you mean that the hindrances can't fall away if one focuses on an external object?"
If the object is like the kasina-s, it's initially 'external', but seen (interpreted) as absolutely uniform, and gets 'extended' to an experience of 'immeasurableness'. It's said that the mind forms the 'nimitta' that is no longer the external sensation itself, but the mind's own counterpart image internally. That's the line between external and internal, though it's usually s/w fuzzy and comes on gradually. And thenimitta is what the mind absorbs in, where the hindrances (and, at times, all sensory input) get blocked out, at least temporarily. In this sense, the mind actually absorbs in itself, a purely internal experience.
If the object is the breath, it's sort of internal from the start, in the sense that it's a kind of proprioception. (That's a distinction s/t made in traditional instruction – touch is s/t from contact with an external object, but also can be the body 'touching,' feeling itself, so to speak.) The mind gradually forms a nimitta from it after it becomes smooth and subtle, etc. (as above).
re: T DC (10/28/14 6:38 PM as a reply to Pål. )
"Actually I think getting absorbed in TV is the opposite of jhana. With jhana, the object of absorbtion is internal, it is one's own mind. Not only is TV an external object, but getting absorbed in TV generally involves a decrease in awareness in my experience. Jhana is a blissfull internal state in which concentration becomes efortless, and awareness is strengthened and clarified."
Way back in the 'golden age' of psychodelics (aka 'entheogens'), i.e. in Berkeley Calif, late 1960's, someone taught me an interesting trick: turn the TV to a non-channel, with a screen full of churning, scintilating dots, and put you faceright up to it, a couple of inches away. This can induce a visualexperience that's both 'immeasurable' – unbounded space with nosense of perspective or distance – and oddly static, a kind ofabsorption in a kind of kasina. It helped, back then (before having any inkling of jhana), also to be moderately high on LSD or the like. Not to recommend that here – jhana-s are more difficult to achieve, but much more rewarding.
re: Pål (10/29/14 1:41 AM as a reply to T DC.)
" So the body is internal? Where do you draw the line between external and internal? Do you mean that the hindrances can't fall away if one focuses on an external object?"
If the object is like the kasina-s, it's initially 'external', but seen (interpreted) as absolutely uniform, and gets 'extended' to an experience of 'immeasurableness'. It's said that the mind forms the 'nimitta' that is no longer the external sensation itself, but the mind's own counterpart image internally. That's the line between external and internal, though it's usually s/w fuzzy and comes on gradually. And thenimitta is what the mind absorbs in, where the hindrances (and, at times, all sensory input) get blocked out, at least temporarily. In this sense, the mind actually absorbs in itself, a purely internal experience.
If the object is the breath, it's sort of internal from the start, in the sense that it's a kind of proprioception. (That's a distinction s/t made in traditional instruction – touch is s/t from contact with an external object, but also can be the body 'touching,' feeling itself, so to speak.) The mind gradually forms a nimitta from it after it becomes smooth and subtle, etc. (as above).
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 7:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 7:16 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
The nimittas still puzzle me. I don't really get what they are. Can one get a nimitta of the whole body? Because I think the Buddha in the suttas pretty clear about that one should be aware of the whole physical body while in jhanas 1-4. And why are the nimittas never mentioned in the suttas? Or are they, in some abstract way?
Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 1:02 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 1:01 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
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I don't think nimittas are mentioned anywhere in the suttas. They seem to be most linked to kasina meditation which was practiced a lot in the middle ages when the vissudhimagga was written.
For what it's worth, I've never had any visual effects while meditating except that the blackness behind the eyes takes on a very spacious quality in the formless realms and then disappears completely in nothingness.
For what it's worth, I've never had any visual effects while meditating except that the blackness behind the eyes takes on a very spacious quality in the formless realms and then disappears completely in nothingness.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 2:15 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 2:15 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent PostsNot Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 4:31 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 4:31 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent PostsPål, modified 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 5:36 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/30/14 5:36 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Can't wait to get there! Are spontaneous movements related to any jhana by chance? Because then I actually might have reached one It doesn't feel that blissfull yet though.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 11/1/14 7:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/1/14 6:59 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Pål (10/30/14 7:16 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie. )
"The nimittas still puzzle me. I don't really get what they are. Can one get a nimitta of the whole body? Because I think the Buddha in the suttas pretty clear about that one should be aware of the whole physical body while in jhanas 1-4. And why are the nimittas never mentioned in the suttas? Or are they, in some abstract way?"
It's debated whether 'body' should be taken as the whole 'physical' body, or the 'whole' of whatever (more limited) aspect of body-ness is present in the mind at a given moment. E.g. in anapanasati, some interpret 'whole body of the breath', meaning one's awareness is so concentrated on the breath (as subtle touch-sensation at nostrils or upper lip) that this forms the whole of bodily presence in awareness at that moment. 'Physical' body is a modern construct influenced by science, as in 'observed objectively,' like, for instance, when we see our reflection in a mirror or a photo. We tend to internalize that idea and imagine we experience that objective entity. In fact (or at least phenomenologically), our experience of 'our own body' is always a mental experience, propriceptive neuro-mapping from sensory input fashioned into neuro-imaging. The 'whole body' descriptions can be interpreted as metaphorical.
re: Not Tao (10/30/14 1:02 PM as a reply to Pål)
"I don't think nimittas are mentioned anywhere in the suttas. They seem to be most linked to kasina meditation which was practiced a lot in the middle ages when the vissudhimagga was written."
(re both citations above) The term 'nimitta' has a range of meanings (see dictionary quotation below), some found in the Sutta-s, some in other parts of the Pali Canon.
The most general meaning is something like the name, image, or 'sign,' symbol (i.e. can be non-verbal) that the mind perceives (sa~n~naa – the 4th khandha?) to interpret sensory contact, feeling-tone (vedana), etc. The mind uses this name or sign to, so to speak, get a handle on the phenomenon, to relate it to something already familiar, as a sort of shorthand.
The term is used in this sense in the Samyutta Nikaya and commentary to the Majjhima Nikaya – see definitions 3 and 4 below. In the final stage of the 'path of purification' (Visudhimagga) there's a focus on 'non-origination' and 'non-signing,' meaning (as far as I can tell, not having achieved that degree of attainment) something like the awakened mind receives sensory input, but avoids artificially 'originating' or 'symbolizing' anything that superimposes onto or substitutes for that experience; the mind sticks with just the sensations themselves (does that sound familiar?).
The usage in samadhi (definition 1 below) is a specific, technical form of the general sense, used in a more positive way (this nimitta is not to be 'cessated,' so to speak, like the nimitta-ization in the purification end-stage, but is a useful, if transient, tool for attaining samadhi). The mind, in concentrating, forms an image of the object, and this image is what the mind can absorb into in absorption (in the Visudhimagga sense). As Not Tao notes, it's associated with kasina practice (which is where the Visudhimagga begins and most fully treats concentration), but also occurs in the other 30 possible objects of concentration.
(from BPS Dictionary, here to end of post, emphasis added in colors)
nimitta -- mark, sign; image; target, object; cause, condition. These meanings are used in, and adapted to, many contexts of which only the doctrinal ones are mentioned here.
1. 'Mental (reflex-) image', obtained in meditation. In full clarity, it will appear in the mind by successful practice of certain concentration-exercises and will then appear as vividly as if seen by the eye. The object perceived at the very beginning of concentration is called the preparatory image (parikamma-nimitta). The still unsteady and unclear image, which arises when the mind has reached a weak degree of concentration, is called the acquired image (uggaha-nimitta). An entirely clear and immovable image arising at a higher degree of concentration is the counter-image (patibhāga-nimitta). As soon as this image arises, the stage of neighbourhood (or access) concentration (upacāra-samādhi) is reached. For further details, s. kasina,
samādhi.
2. 'Sign of (previous) kamma' (kamma-nimitta) and 'sign of (the future) destiny' (gati-nimitta); these arise as mental objects of the last karmic consciousness before death (maranāsanna-kamma; s. karma, III, 3).
Usages (1) and (2) are commentarial (s. Appendix). In sutta usage, the term occurs, e.g. as:
3. 'Outward appearance': of one who has sense-control it is said- that "he does not seize upon the general appearance' of an object (na nimittaggāhī; M. 38, D. 2; expl. Vis I, 54f; see sīla).
4. 'Object': the six objects, i.e. visual, etc. (rūpa-nimitta; S. XXII, 3). Also, when in explanation of animitta-cetovimutti, signless deliverance of mind (s. cetovimutti, vimokkha), it is said, 'sabba-nimittānam amanasikārā', it refers to the 6 sense-objects (Com. to M. 43), and has therefore to be rendered "by paying no attention to any object (or object-ideas)." - A pleasant or beautiful object (subha-nimitta, q.v.) is a condition to the arising of the hindrance of sense-desire; a 'repellent object' (patigha-nimitta) for the hindrance of ill-will; contemplation on the impurity of an object (asubha-nimitta; s. asubha) is an antidote to sense-desire.
"The nimittas still puzzle me. I don't really get what they are. Can one get a nimitta of the whole body? Because I think the Buddha in the suttas pretty clear about that one should be aware of the whole physical body while in jhanas 1-4. And why are the nimittas never mentioned in the suttas? Or are they, in some abstract way?"
It's debated whether 'body' should be taken as the whole 'physical' body, or the 'whole' of whatever (more limited) aspect of body-ness is present in the mind at a given moment. E.g. in anapanasati, some interpret 'whole body of the breath', meaning one's awareness is so concentrated on the breath (as subtle touch-sensation at nostrils or upper lip) that this forms the whole of bodily presence in awareness at that moment. 'Physical' body is a modern construct influenced by science, as in 'observed objectively,' like, for instance, when we see our reflection in a mirror or a photo. We tend to internalize that idea and imagine we experience that objective entity. In fact (or at least phenomenologically), our experience of 'our own body' is always a mental experience, propriceptive neuro-mapping from sensory input fashioned into neuro-imaging. The 'whole body' descriptions can be interpreted as metaphorical.
re: Not Tao (10/30/14 1:02 PM as a reply to Pål)
"I don't think nimittas are mentioned anywhere in the suttas. They seem to be most linked to kasina meditation which was practiced a lot in the middle ages when the vissudhimagga was written."
(re both citations above) The term 'nimitta' has a range of meanings (see dictionary quotation below), some found in the Sutta-s, some in other parts of the Pali Canon.
The most general meaning is something like the name, image, or 'sign,' symbol (i.e. can be non-verbal) that the mind perceives (sa~n~naa – the 4th khandha?) to interpret sensory contact, feeling-tone (vedana), etc. The mind uses this name or sign to, so to speak, get a handle on the phenomenon, to relate it to something already familiar, as a sort of shorthand.
The term is used in this sense in the Samyutta Nikaya and commentary to the Majjhima Nikaya – see definitions 3 and 4 below. In the final stage of the 'path of purification' (Visudhimagga) there's a focus on 'non-origination' and 'non-signing,' meaning (as far as I can tell, not having achieved that degree of attainment) something like the awakened mind receives sensory input, but avoids artificially 'originating' or 'symbolizing' anything that superimposes onto or substitutes for that experience; the mind sticks with just the sensations themselves (does that sound familiar?).
The usage in samadhi (definition 1 below) is a specific, technical form of the general sense, used in a more positive way (this nimitta is not to be 'cessated,' so to speak, like the nimitta-ization in the purification end-stage, but is a useful, if transient, tool for attaining samadhi). The mind, in concentrating, forms an image of the object, and this image is what the mind can absorb into in absorption (in the Visudhimagga sense). As Not Tao notes, it's associated with kasina practice (which is where the Visudhimagga begins and most fully treats concentration), but also occurs in the other 30 possible objects of concentration.
(from BPS Dictionary, here to end of post, emphasis added in colors)
nimitta -- mark, sign; image; target, object; cause, condition. These meanings are used in, and adapted to, many contexts of which only the doctrinal ones are mentioned here.
1. 'Mental (reflex-) image', obtained in meditation. In full clarity, it will appear in the mind by successful practice of certain concentration-exercises and will then appear as vividly as if seen by the eye. The object perceived at the very beginning of concentration is called the preparatory image (parikamma-nimitta). The still unsteady and unclear image, which arises when the mind has reached a weak degree of concentration, is called the acquired image (uggaha-nimitta). An entirely clear and immovable image arising at a higher degree of concentration is the counter-image (patibhāga-nimitta). As soon as this image arises, the stage of neighbourhood (or access) concentration (upacāra-samādhi) is reached. For further details, s. kasina,
samādhi.
2. 'Sign of (previous) kamma' (kamma-nimitta) and 'sign of (the future) destiny' (gati-nimitta); these arise as mental objects of the last karmic consciousness before death (maranāsanna-kamma; s. karma, III, 3).
Usages (1) and (2) are commentarial (s. Appendix). In sutta usage, the term occurs, e.g. as:
3. 'Outward appearance': of one who has sense-control it is said- that "he does not seize upon the general appearance' of an object (na nimittaggāhī; M. 38, D. 2; expl. Vis I, 54f; see sīla).
4. 'Object': the six objects, i.e. visual, etc. (rūpa-nimitta; S. XXII, 3). Also, when in explanation of animitta-cetovimutti, signless deliverance of mind (s. cetovimutti, vimokkha), it is said, 'sabba-nimittānam amanasikārā', it refers to the 6 sense-objects (Com. to M. 43), and has therefore to be rendered "by paying no attention to any object (or object-ideas)." - A pleasant or beautiful object (subha-nimitta, q.v.) is a condition to the arising of the hindrance of sense-desire; a 'repellent object' (patigha-nimitta) for the hindrance of ill-will; contemplation on the impurity of an object (asubha-nimitta; s. asubha) is an antidote to sense-desire.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 11/1/14 4:38 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/1/14 4:38 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I can't see why the Buddha would talk in metaphors in the context of meditation instruction. He uses allegorys a lot but when he does he nakes himself very clear about it. Thanissaro Bhikkhu puts it pretty well:
"The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step — without further explanation — refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." If the Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath in such close proximity, he would have been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does below, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of reference). The step of breathing in and out sensitive to the entire body relates to the many similes in the suttas depicting jhana as a state of whole-body awareness (see MN 119)."
"The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step — without further explanation — refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." If the Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath in such close proximity, he would have been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does below, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of reference). The step of breathing in and out sensitive to the entire body relates to the many similes in the suttas depicting jhana as a state of whole-body awareness (see MN 119)."
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 11/2/14 7:22 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/2/14 7:21 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent PostsPål
I can't see why the Buddha would talk in metaphors in the context of meditation instruction. He uses allegorys a lot but when he does he nakes himself very clear about it. Thanissaro Bhikkhu puts it pretty well:
"The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step — without further explanation — refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." If the Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath in such close proximity, he would have been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does below, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of reference). The step of breathing in and out sensitive to the entire body relates to the many similes in the suttas depicting jhana as a state of whole-body awareness (see MN 119)."
I can't see why the Buddha would talk in metaphors in the context of meditation instruction. He uses allegorys a lot but when he does he nakes himself very clear about it. Thanissaro Bhikkhu puts it pretty well:
"The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step — without further explanation — refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." If the Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath in such close proximity, he would have been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does below, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of reference). The step of breathing in and out sensitive to the entire body relates to the many similes in the suttas depicting jhana as a state of whole-body awareness (see MN 119)."
Than-Geof is one of (the 2 or 3) most valuable teachers in my education in Dhamma. (I've heard him in person at several day-long teachings; listened to his recorded talks for hundreds of hours; read many of his books, some multiple times.) His logic and explanations I can verify in my own experience, but not 100% of the time. In this case, he argues well (as he always does), but is presenting a view that doesn't happen to fit my experience in this instance ("…this is unlikely…" – he isn't asserting absolute certainty here, but his own, albeit well-informed interpretation).
An other monastic I have contact with (similarly of Western birth and with comparable decades of dedicated study and practice) teaches the view I described in the other post. He was ordained by Mahasi, worked with Goenke for 12 years,and now 20 years with Pa Auk Sayadaw. Some of his views, teachings fit better for me. Just as many of Than-Geof's views, teachings do also. I don't see the differences as conflicting, just alternative perspectives.
Actually, I use Than-Geof's 'whole-body' approach initially in sitting; as he puts it, 'first getting the body into position, so the mind can then get into position to meditate'. But further on in the anapanasati process, my mind becomes narrowly focused on the breath-nimitta at the nose; the rest of the 'body' has disappeared for the time-being – no sensations experienced from other part of the body; only focus (approaching jhana) on the bodily-touch sensation of the breath at the nose.
The issue here, too, is not a crucially profound issue of Dhamma, but a relatively detailed aspect of one particular practice. Interpreting the Sutta-s this way or that way, doing it this way or that way, can both can get the same job done.
From what I've seen, the great monastic teachers all have minor interpretative idiosyncracies, their own take on things and teaching styles, conditioned by their individual kamma (background). And they tend to respect each others' divergent viewpoints, and get along with each other splendidly, as they have so much more that they agree on whole-heatedly -- kalyanamitta. (And their individual viewpoints don't tend to get militantly amoured-up in selfing.)
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 11/2/14 8:50 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/2/14 8:50 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Recently I've been listening a lot to talks by Bhante Vimalaramsi. According to him, the relaxation of bodily formation (what Thanissaro translates into "bodily fabrication") moment is extremely important since it changes the whole meditation process and anables letting go. With this point of view, in which bodily formation/fabrication is not only the breath, but includes all tension in the body, I think awereness of the entire body makes much more sense. If one is not aware of the entire body, one doesn't know wether one is relaxing the whole body, and then the risk is big that one isn't letting go of hindrances properly but just surpressing them instead and then one is missing the whole point of meditation.
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 11/5/14 2:42 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/5/14 2:42 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Pål (11/2/14 8:50 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)
"Recently
I've been listening a lot to talks by Bhante Vimalaramsi. According to him, the relaxation of bodily formation (what Thanissaro translates into "bodily fabrication") moment is extremely important since it changes the whole meditation process and anables letting go. With this point of view, in which bodily formation/fabrication is not only the breath, but includes all tension in the body,…"
This could be seen as preparatory work to meditation – trying to eliminate, as much as possible: physical tensions and pains that distract the mind in a major way; mental tensions that represent insecurity, sense of lack of safety such that the mind can't relax / let go.
"… I think awereness of the entire body makes much more sense. If one is not aware of the entire body, one doesn't know wether one is relaxing the whole body, and then the risk is big that one isn't letting go of hindrances properly but just surpressing them instead and then one is missing the whole point of meditation. "
It helps to distinguish two levels of perspective here. At one level (before significant stages of awakening), the task is to "just suppress" the hindrances (temporarily), as a means to allow access to a sense of mental safety, lack of remorse, so the mind can (temporarily) "let go"into the peace of attained concentration. With more practice, the mental 'letting-go muscles', so to speak, or skills, get stronger, easier to get into and hold concentration. Over time, stronger concentration helps the ability to reduce the hold of the hindrances outside of concentration; concentration gets stronger and longer, and being caught in hindrances gets shorter and weaker, overall.
At the other level – of the overal lpath and the end goal – "letting go of the hindrances properly" does means rooting them out, eradicating them, letting go of them permanently.
So, as in many aspects of the path, there is paradox that Than-Geof often speaks of. One skillfully uses fabrications, suppressions, becomings, etc. in a process that gradually leads to abandoning them altogether. The 'raft' (temporary means) will be put aside, but first one has to use the raft to help get across the 'flood', the mass of deeply conditioned, stubborn habits. Let go of the raft too soon and one is quickly swept away, further from the goal.
Put another way, "the whole point of meditation" is a gradual path, which uses different methods at different stages. People and teachers speak, at times, from the viewpoints of various of the stages, temporary situations. Look for the perspective in what's being said, taught. Relative to such-and-such perspective or temporary framework, what's said/taught has (usually) validity. Extracting what's literally said out of context and comparing it with other literal sayings from other contexts – this usually results in generating (perceived) conflict (and a large proportion of, for instance, what goes on in these forum discussions). An antidote would be adding some equanimity.
"Recently
I've been listening a lot to talks by Bhante Vimalaramsi. According to him, the relaxation of bodily formation (what Thanissaro translates into "bodily fabrication") moment is extremely important since it changes the whole meditation process and anables letting go. With this point of view, in which bodily formation/fabrication is not only the breath, but includes all tension in the body,…"
This could be seen as preparatory work to meditation – trying to eliminate, as much as possible: physical tensions and pains that distract the mind in a major way; mental tensions that represent insecurity, sense of lack of safety such that the mind can't relax / let go.
"… I think awereness of the entire body makes much more sense. If one is not aware of the entire body, one doesn't know wether one is relaxing the whole body, and then the risk is big that one isn't letting go of hindrances properly but just surpressing them instead and then one is missing the whole point of meditation. "
It helps to distinguish two levels of perspective here. At one level (before significant stages of awakening), the task is to "just suppress" the hindrances (temporarily), as a means to allow access to a sense of mental safety, lack of remorse, so the mind can (temporarily) "let go"into the peace of attained concentration. With more practice, the mental 'letting-go muscles', so to speak, or skills, get stronger, easier to get into and hold concentration. Over time, stronger concentration helps the ability to reduce the hold of the hindrances outside of concentration; concentration gets stronger and longer, and being caught in hindrances gets shorter and weaker, overall.
At the other level – of the overal lpath and the end goal – "letting go of the hindrances properly" does means rooting them out, eradicating them, letting go of them permanently.
So, as in many aspects of the path, there is paradox that Than-Geof often speaks of. One skillfully uses fabrications, suppressions, becomings, etc. in a process that gradually leads to abandoning them altogether. The 'raft' (temporary means) will be put aside, but first one has to use the raft to help get across the 'flood', the mass of deeply conditioned, stubborn habits. Let go of the raft too soon and one is quickly swept away, further from the goal.
Put another way, "the whole point of meditation" is a gradual path, which uses different methods at different stages. People and teachers speak, at times, from the viewpoints of various of the stages, temporary situations. Look for the perspective in what's being said, taught. Relative to such-and-such perspective or temporary framework, what's said/taught has (usually) validity. Extracting what's literally said out of context and comparing it with other literal sayings from other contexts – this usually results in generating (perceived) conflict (and a large proportion of, for instance, what goes on in these forum discussions). An antidote would be adding some equanimity.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 11/7/14 2:02 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/7/14 2:02 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
What do you mean by different methods at different stages? Anapanasati, if one looks at all of the instructions in the suttas and not just "be mindfull of the breath and bring the mind back when it wanders" is, according to the suttas, supposed to be able to take one all the way to awakening, combined with appropriate behaviour of course. Because of this I am very interested in getting a good understanding of these instructions. Maybe one can see the different paragraphs as different methods though.
I think you are right about the path being paradoxal. One can't get rid of desire without desire for freedom for desire, if that's what you meant.
I'd really like to know, if that's not too personal, how far you've gotten with your "surpression-is-okay" practice philosophy. Has your over-all suffering decreased? Also, what kind of vipassana are you practicing? If you've practiced with Thanissaro, you've done somekind of "mix" between samatha and vipassana, right?
I think you are right about the path being paradoxal. One can't get rid of desire without desire for freedom for desire, if that's what you meant.
I'd really like to know, if that's not too personal, how far you've gotten with your "surpression-is-okay" practice philosophy. Has your over-all suffering decreased? Also, what kind of vipassana are you practicing? If you've practiced with Thanissaro, you've done somekind of "mix" between samatha and vipassana, right?
CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 11/11/14 4:59 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/11/14 4:48 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Pål (11/7/14 2:02 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie. )
"What do you mean by different methods at different stages? Anapanasati, if one looks at all of the instructions in the suttas and not just "be mindfull of the breath and bring the mind back when it wanders" is, according to the suttas, supposed to be able to take one all the way to awakening, combined with appropriate behaviour of course. Because of this I am very interested in getting a good understanding of these instructions."
Something you might look into for overview is called "The gradual training." This isn't mentioned much focally, but comes up now and again. Sometimes discussions deal with the issues of 'gradual' progress vs 'sudden' leaps in the awakening process. But the main idea, as far as I can tell, has to do with practicing virtue (sila), which helps clear the way for concentration (samadhi), which then sharpens the mind for insight (panna), which then provides more insight as to how to perfect sila more deeply, etc. – around and around, this practice or that practice intertwining as one's individual path leads. (Perhaps different if one has a good teacher (in person) who can lead through a more rigorously disciplined path.) Eventually it all begins to gel, and one begins to experience different aspects simultaneously, seeing the deeper connections. Certainty, direction and confidence build. Some day it might all click together at once, and then...
"Maybe one can see the different paragraphs as different methods though."
Maybe more that different paragraphs can be used in detail in a gradual approach. For instance, in a concentration retreat once, Ven U Jagara focused a whole talk on just the 1st 3 lines of the Anapanasati Sutta – knowing breath long, short, the whole body of the breath (that's the interpretation he uses). Later he added the 4th line – this much can help one to absorption. One can fruitfully spend a whole retreat, or longer on just that much. And then be ready to really understand and practice the further steps.
"I think you are right about the path being paradoxal. One can't get rid of desire without desire for freedom for desire, if that's what you
meant. "
That's exactly how Than-Geof puts it. He quotes another paradoxical saying from one of his direct teachers: "The one thing worth clinging to, as long as it takes, is the determination to find an end to suffering."
"I'd really like to know, if that's not too personal, how far you've gotten with your "surpression-is-okay" practice philosophy. Has your over-all suffering decreased?"
To the last question: definitely; life goes smoother; disruptions never cease to arise, but seem smaller, more easily worked out, worked around with a perspective as to their transiency. It doesn't seem like a conscious attitude of 'suppression', but rather of attraction to states / processes (e.g. jhana practice) where the immediate payoff just naturally overshadows 'hindrance'-type factors -- trading candy for gold, as Than-Geof puts it. Temporarily, but more and more they (hindrances) get weaker, and concentration feeds insight into how they work and how to "starve" of what feeds them. They start to fade away; the positive practices get stronger. Momentum gathers.
"Also, what kind of vipassana are you practicing? If you've practiced with Thanissaro, you've done somekind of "mix" between samatha and vipassana, right? "
No rigid system. When sitting, I generally go for jhana, because afterwards vipassana is so much clearer, easier, for at least a couple of hours. When jhana doesn't come, look around at what is there in detail. When on retreatat a nearby center led by Mahasi monks, I follow their instructions ('noting'), but also sneak-in sitting jhana for the reason just mentioned. On retreats with Shaila Catherine and Ven.U Jagara, I follow their program, e.g. '4 elements' (MahaBhuuta) or '32 body parts' vipassana, in addition to straight (elementary) insight and concentration.
It's not a conscious 'mixing' of methods, but more a natural process of ebb and flow: watching experience carefully (vipassana) yields insight best when the mind is calm and clear; samatha gets the mind calm and clear; insight builds 'knowledge' of how things happen, hence more detachment and equanimity, which feeds the ability to concentrate, etc.
I've been to several 'day-long' teaching sessions with Than-Geof, but not practiced with him per se. But most of his writings are here on my computer (as well as printedbooks), and I refer to them first when studying issues. Actually, maybe I do practice with him, in a sense. I have collections of his 8-12 minute evening talks given at his monastery near San Diego -- from CDs/DVDs named 'Basics' (64 talks), and 'A Refuge' (20 talks) which are freely available.. These I have copied to cassette tapes, and every day, commuting to/from work, I listen to one or two of them, for several years now, again and again, 3rd or 4th time through by now. Gradually I learn them by heart, learn his way of thinking.
"What do you mean by different methods at different stages? Anapanasati, if one looks at all of the instructions in the suttas and not just "be mindfull of the breath and bring the mind back when it wanders" is, according to the suttas, supposed to be able to take one all the way to awakening, combined with appropriate behaviour of course. Because of this I am very interested in getting a good understanding of these instructions."
Something you might look into for overview is called "The gradual training." This isn't mentioned much focally, but comes up now and again. Sometimes discussions deal with the issues of 'gradual' progress vs 'sudden' leaps in the awakening process. But the main idea, as far as I can tell, has to do with practicing virtue (sila), which helps clear the way for concentration (samadhi), which then sharpens the mind for insight (panna), which then provides more insight as to how to perfect sila more deeply, etc. – around and around, this practice or that practice intertwining as one's individual path leads. (Perhaps different if one has a good teacher (in person) who can lead through a more rigorously disciplined path.) Eventually it all begins to gel, and one begins to experience different aspects simultaneously, seeing the deeper connections. Certainty, direction and confidence build. Some day it might all click together at once, and then...
"Maybe one can see the different paragraphs as different methods though."
Maybe more that different paragraphs can be used in detail in a gradual approach. For instance, in a concentration retreat once, Ven U Jagara focused a whole talk on just the 1st 3 lines of the Anapanasati Sutta – knowing breath long, short, the whole body of the breath (that's the interpretation he uses). Later he added the 4th line – this much can help one to absorption. One can fruitfully spend a whole retreat, or longer on just that much. And then be ready to really understand and practice the further steps.
"I think you are right about the path being paradoxal. One can't get rid of desire without desire for freedom for desire, if that's what you
meant. "
That's exactly how Than-Geof puts it. He quotes another paradoxical saying from one of his direct teachers: "The one thing worth clinging to, as long as it takes, is the determination to find an end to suffering."
"I'd really like to know, if that's not too personal, how far you've gotten with your "surpression-is-okay" practice philosophy. Has your over-all suffering decreased?"
To the last question: definitely; life goes smoother; disruptions never cease to arise, but seem smaller, more easily worked out, worked around with a perspective as to their transiency. It doesn't seem like a conscious attitude of 'suppression', but rather of attraction to states / processes (e.g. jhana practice) where the immediate payoff just naturally overshadows 'hindrance'-type factors -- trading candy for gold, as Than-Geof puts it. Temporarily, but more and more they (hindrances) get weaker, and concentration feeds insight into how they work and how to "starve" of what feeds them. They start to fade away; the positive practices get stronger. Momentum gathers.
"Also, what kind of vipassana are you practicing? If you've practiced with Thanissaro, you've done somekind of "mix" between samatha and vipassana, right? "
No rigid system. When sitting, I generally go for jhana, because afterwards vipassana is so much clearer, easier, for at least a couple of hours. When jhana doesn't come, look around at what is there in detail. When on retreatat a nearby center led by Mahasi monks, I follow their instructions ('noting'), but also sneak-in sitting jhana for the reason just mentioned. On retreats with Shaila Catherine and Ven.U Jagara, I follow their program, e.g. '4 elements' (MahaBhuuta) or '32 body parts' vipassana, in addition to straight (elementary) insight and concentration.
It's not a conscious 'mixing' of methods, but more a natural process of ebb and flow: watching experience carefully (vipassana) yields insight best when the mind is calm and clear; samatha gets the mind calm and clear; insight builds 'knowledge' of how things happen, hence more detachment and equanimity, which feeds the ability to concentrate, etc.
I've been to several 'day-long' teaching sessions with Than-Geof, but not practiced with him per se. But most of his writings are here on my computer (as well as printedbooks), and I refer to them first when studying issues. Actually, maybe I do practice with him, in a sense. I have collections of his 8-12 minute evening talks given at his monastery near San Diego -- from CDs/DVDs named 'Basics' (64 talks), and 'A Refuge' (20 talks) which are freely available.. These I have copied to cassette tapes, and every day, commuting to/from work, I listen to one or two of them, for several years now, again and again, 3rd or 4th time through by now. Gradually I learn them by heart, learn his way of thinking.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 11/11/14 10:48 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/11/14 10:48 AM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Yes the first lines of the instructions must be the ones resulting in first jhana since the instructions continue with basicaly "notice how you get into the first jhana".
Very interesting to hear about your practice. How many years has it been? Maybe you already said that.
I'm still a little suspicious-minded towards mahasi practice though, since it seems to not emphasize jhana enough.
In the last tetrad of the anapana instructions, do you think the meditator is still supposed to be in jhana?
Very interesting to hear about your practice. How many years has it been? Maybe you already said that.
I'm still a little suspicious-minded towards mahasi practice though, since it seems to not emphasize jhana enough.
In the last tetrad of the anapana instructions, do you think the meditator is still supposed to be in jhana?
boubs fatty, modified 9 Years ago at 11/11/14 7:54 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/11/14 7:45 PM
RE: Benefits of pre-jhanic meditation
Posts: 6 Join Date: 11/11/14 Recent PostsIan And:
Pål:
I'm not very sure about this trusting ones intuition thing though. Again, why would the Buddha go into such detail in his meditation instructions if it actually was so easy as "just pay attention to breathing" or "trust your intuition"?
Do you see what you are doing here? You are trying to intellectualize a process whereby intellection results in the booby prize, i.e., misunderstanding and miscomprehension which results in misperception of "what is." You are trying needlessly to complicate the uncomplicated.
You need to learn to trust your direct experience when it is telling you that things are okay. Which in turn means you need to learn to trust your in-born intuition. You are fighting a losing battle with your own intuitive processes. And you've decided that you, in your infinite wisdom, know better than your own intuition!
It is one thing to test your intuitive processes and find that they come up lacking. That's just due diligence. And it is another thing when the test proves that the intuitive processes were correct, but that you were unable, for whatever reason, to accept that outcome!
Pål:
Unfortunately though, I actually seem to get pretty good results when following my intuition. My exoteric/sutta geek side doesn't like that...
Do you see what you have written here? Do you see the dichotomy? "Unfortunately." That means you are unable to accept "what is!" You are unable to accept the evidence of your own direct experience and intuition! Now, how sensible is that? This insight really needs to be contemplated in order for you to understand the mistaken perception you are buying into. No one can do this for you but yourself!
There are no fairies that will come over and touch you on the head with their magic wand and say: "Now you have the ability to recognize the truth directly when you experience it." At some point, you just have to trust the evidence of your direct experience and quit doubting yourself. Isn't skeptical doubt one of the five hindrances? Guess what. That is what has you stuck!
Not Tao:
Maybe this will help. The "heartwood" of buddhism is "the unprovoked awareness-release" or "unbinding." To stand firm with only the heartwood left is to take refuge in yourself and your understanding of the dhamma - which is best translated as phenomena, or "the way things are." The buddha is telling you to trust your direct experience because that is , specifically, what trains you.
At the very end he is direct. He says, "Watch yourself carefully. Trust what you see. You are the one who knows yourself best."
Not Tao is providing some good advice here. If you try too hard to intellectualize what dhyana is, you will never be satisfied with the result, having doubt that you have understood correctly. That doubt will keep you stuck spinning your wheels in the sand, getting nowhere.
Here's a hint: Think of dhyana as being absorbed in an object. The object can be anything that captures your imagination and attention. Like the breath, if you are using it as your object for meditation. Have you ever experienced being so absorbed in an activity that you were temporarily blinded to everything going on around you?
Forget about everything else you have read and just try to become absorbed in an object of contemplation. Use your intuition if you have the courage. If you can accomplish this, the rest will happen of its own natural accord without you getting in the way. Keep your ego out of it. Just enjoy the ride when it occurs, and then you will have an idea what dhyana really is in terms of its ability to build your level of concentration.
In peace,
Ian
Ian and...why don't you put up your real name and face before mocking everybody else. Your sophistry is absurdly bad yet you seem to get away with it as if you are an 'elder' on this forum. Tell the fellow something useful! If he wants Jhana, sit perfectly still for between 15 minutes and two hours. That's some good advice there! Let's be realistic, anybody who can sit still for two hours straight and obviously be breathing slowly and deeply and awake has certainly found the first jhana. 999/1000 times this method would work. The verbose nonsense is just bullshit designed to scare newcomers on this website into submission. Everybody else here knows it but wouldn't dare stand up to you for their fragile egos couldn't take being rounded on themselves.
My cycles have stopped a year and a half ago and my dharma eye is fully open. Fully. Open. No fall backs. so enjoy your sand dune with a little wind going over the top. Your prior personal abuse of me when I put myself out there means nothing to me now. I don't identify with anything day to day. Just thought I ought to get involved when I saw you beat someone else down