Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

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Cem Keskin, modified 10 Years ago at 11/23/14 1:07 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 11/23/14 1:06 PM

Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Hi all,

I am planning to head out to Panditarama Lumbini for a retreat around mid-January. I have e-mailed them at panditarama.lumbini@gmail.com a few weeks ago but haven't gotten a response. Then I've tried calling them a few times but all I get is the answering machine. I have left a message on the machine but again nobody's gotten back to me. Any tips as to how I can reach them?

Best,

Cem
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Nik, modified 9 Years ago at 1/25/15 10:38 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/25/15 10:38 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 55 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
Any luck? I plan on going at some point this year as well...
Roman, modified 9 Years ago at 2/2/15 4:51 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/2/15 4:51 PM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Post: 1 Join Date: 2/2/15 Recent Posts
Hi guys,

the  panditarama.lumbini@gmail.com  address is correct. It must work - sayalay reads her e-mails every day.


Try calling the center between 7am and 8am local Nepali time. At this time both sayadaw and sayalay are always in the dining hall where the phone is.

Good luck! :-)
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Nik, modified 9 Years ago at 3/7/15 11:40 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 3/7/15 11:40 PM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 55 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
Good to know. Thank you.

How was your stay there?
Peter S, modified 9 Years ago at 3/25/15 7:54 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 3/25/15 7:54 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 68 Join Date: 3/25/15 Recent Posts
Hey folks, I've just posted a review of the Lumbini centre, but being new to the site I may have posted it in the wrong place. Here's the link:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/peters/home/-/blogs/panditarama-lumbini-centre

Hi Cem, how are you? We shared a room briefly when I first arrived there. I hope you had a good experience!

Peter
Oochdd, modified 9 Years ago at 3/25/15 11:09 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 3/25/15 11:09 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 101 Join Date: 12/16/14 Recent Posts
That link doesn't seem to work (at least for me).

Could you maybe also post your review here as a comment? I'm thinking of perhaps sitting a retreat there next year, so would be highly appreciated!

Best
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Eric B, modified 9 Years ago at 3/25/15 11:47 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 3/25/15 11:47 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Oochdd:
That link doesn't seem to work (at least for me).


The link doesn't work for me either.
Peter S, modified 9 Years ago at 5/6/15 12:18 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 3/27/15 10:50 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 68 Join Date: 3/25/15 Recent Posts
Sorry about that guys. I'm new on this site. I hope this is useful info...
--

I recently completed a retreat (Feb 2015) at the Panditarama Lumbini Vipassana Meditation Centre in Lumbini, Nepal, and want to share some details in case it helps you make a decision whether to go there to practise. Vasanth has also written an excellent and detailed review here, so I'll try to offer something a bit different. (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Lumbini+Panditarama+Meditation+Centre)

Overall it's an excellent place to practice. The centre is in what's called the Lumbini Garden, a large area of land set aside for monasteries and meditation centres, right by the reputed site of the Buddha's birth. So throughout the stay, there's a sense of being close to a revered and sacred place, and all the neighbouring monasteries, being from many different cultures and traditions, fill the air with a wild mixture of gongs and bells and chants at various times of the day. It's also a quite remote place, requiring an 8-hour bumpy bus ride from Kathmandu (I didn't try the recommended route from India). So when you arrive, there's a sense of pilgrimage to a unique and holy sanctuary. Perhaps that was just me, but I'm sure a centre in a city would have a very different atmosphere.

The structures and grounds are a little tired as the climate is harsh and they run exclusively on donations, so the building materials age fast. But everything is solid and reliable enough. They had a range of accommodations, scaling up your privacy level depending on how long you commit to. So under 2 weeks, you stay in a dorm room in the main building where the offices, dining hall and meditation hall are. If you stay longer, you get a 3-bed room to yourself in blocks out in the gardens, provided there aren't too many people there. And if you stay 30 days or more, you get a secluded cabin (Kuti) by a lotus pond far from the main building. All subject to availability and who gets in first.

Electricity is quite an issue for the centre, as the local town supply cuts off frequently and randomly. There is an inverter which takes over and provides dim lighting in some areas, but everything else goes off, including fans and any appliances you've got plugged in. In a way, it added to my practice experience as it was all part of withdrawing from modern conveniences and luxuries. And besides, you get used to such things as showering and brushing your teeth in the dark.The food is great, there wasn't a meal in 22 days that I didn't enjoy. Not that you go to a retreat to indulge in culinary pleasures, but the food was good, and nutritious and diverse and filling. Plenty to keep you going to face the rigorous meditation schedule. All vegan or lacto-ovo vegetarian. 

The schedule is similar to other centres. Gong at 4am, then alternating walking and sitting, mostly in 1-hour blocks, breaking for 2 meals, then a dharma talk in the evening, then flexible bedtime between 8 and 10pm. I didn't get the feeling we were being watched and held to a strict schedule, and that it was up to us to put in what we could. Some people, for example, seemed to spend all their waking hours in the meditation hall, others seemed to spend more time walking in the grounds, and some people I saw only every few days, so perhaps they meditated in the Kutis.

The practice is Mahasi Sayadaw style from Burma. I'll let you look that up elsewhere on this site, but it's basically noting all physical and mental objects from waking til sleeping. While in sitting meditation, it's all about watching the rising and falling of the abdomen, only leaving that to note any predominant objects that arise, and returning to the abdomen as soon as they subside. Then in walking, noting every stage of each step, and any other predominant objects that arise. As the days wear on, what keeps you focused on this practice is the detailed interviews with the teachers as they really press for precise recall of your noting experiences, and write down everything you say so they can trace your progress (and I got the sense they wanted to ensure the centre wasn't sheltering people who weren't dedicated to working hard).

If you are determined, you can really get a lot out of the time you spend there, as the environment, the teachers and the other retreatants are all focused on and support you in serious practice.

I'm trying not to repeat too much of what Vasanth covered, but there are 8 precepts.

The teachers are awesome - Sayalay Bhadamanika is Burmese, and has the softest and most understanding manner, showing great sympathy when you are struggling, and warm encouragement when you're showing improvement. I always came away from interviews with her feeling energised for the challenges ahead. Sayadaw Vivekananda, who I'm guessing is Israeli by birth, is a firm but fair and friendly teacher, admonishing where required, and giving praise and encouragement when earned. I used to get a bit nervous prior to his interviews if I didn't feel I had much progress to report. But this also added a pressure that helped keep me focused. He's quite the scholar and enjoys discussions on Buddhist doctrines, ethics, philosophy, etc, outside of the interviews, and in many different languages. The Sayadaw gave live dharma talks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday evenings, and on the other evenings, a recorded dharma talk from past years was played. The main difference was that after the live talks, we could ask questions, and sometimes these Q&A sessions were extensive. His topics were typically based on a sutra, from which he then drew interpretations and lessons for the kind of practice we were doing. 

Some practical considerations. I visited in February, when the weather transitioned from a quite cold winter experience into a warm, mostly dry, and mosquito-infested experience. I was glad to leave when I did as the mosquitoes really began to take over the place, and me being from country Australia, I thought I was pretty comfortable with the whining beasts. The centre unfortunately sits beside a stretch of swampland, so as soon as the temperature hits the 20s Celsius in late February, the mosquitoes bust out in clouds. I was told the place closes for much of summer as it's too hot and wet during the monsoon rains, and the teachers take that opportunity to do retreats in various western countries. So I'm guessing they're closed April-August or September. And besides, you really would not want to be there during that time. Lumbini is at a low altitude in the south of Nepal, nowhere near the mountains you might picture cover Nepal. So you're getting an Indian summer down there. But I also heard the winters can be extreme. The ideal months are Sept-Nov, and Feb-Mar. Add to that Dec and Jan if you're comfortable with cold. The place gets full at those times. I was told they'd be restricting numbers this year during the popular months, because last year they ended up overrun. I mention all of this because choosing the time of year, and booking in early with them, seems pretty important over there.

Check out their website at www.panditarama-lumbini.info for further details, and send them an email if you have any questions. And of course feel free to contact me if you have any questions as I really enjoyed the place and would be happy to address any specific questions.

A final note on Dana. I don't know what the norm is elsewhere, but this place runs exclusively on donations with no pressure to pay anything at all. A small amount elsewhere goes a very long way in a village in Nepal. US$5/day covers your basic daily expenses at the centre minus maintenance costs, and yet if you stayed anywhere else in the country, you'd easily spend a minimum $20-30 per day. Sorry if it wasn't necessary to point this out!

Some photos attached.

All the best with your retreats!
Peter S, modified 9 Years ago at 4/27/15 5:01 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 4/27/15 5:01 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 68 Join Date: 3/25/15 Recent Posts
In case it helps with anyone's plans in the aftermath of the Nepal earthquake of April 2015, the Panditarama centre is open and undamaged. They experienced tremendous shaking but no harm to the people there or to the buildings. In late April they reopened for the summer session after a short break.

Since Kathmandu and also possibly the roads from there down to Lumbini will be in disarray for weeks or even months, it might be advisable to look at traveling to Panditarama via the India border crossing route.

Metta!
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Cem Keskin, modified 9 Years ago at 5/9/15 2:52 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 5/9/15 2:52 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Hi Peter!

Sure, I remember you. I'm good thanks emoticon How about yourself? I've had a great retreat at Panditarama Lumbini. I relocated to Ratna Vipassana Vihar in Kathmandu after they closed for the spring-summer. I was in Kathmandu till about one week after the quake. I got back home a few days ago. I'll draft a short write-up about Panditarama Lumbini soon to compliment yours.

Cem
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 9 Years ago at 5/9/15 6:20 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 5/9/15 6:20 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 3293 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Dear Cem,

Very much looking forward to your thoughts on your retreat.

Great to know the place weathered the quake.

Daniel
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Cem Keskin, modified 9 Years ago at 5/11/15 3:00 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 5/11/15 2:36 PM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Dear Daniel (and everyone),

Here's a short text containing some info on and my impressions of Sayadaw U Vivekananda, the principal teacher at Panditarama Lumbini. I hope it will be informative for anyone planning a retreat at the center. Another write-up on my experiences at Panditarama Lumbini will soon follow.

Best,

Cem

==========

In my opinion, Sayadaw U Vivekananda is a top-notch meditation teacher. I don't have that much experience with meditation teachers, retreat centers, etc. but I have had five other meditation teachers to compare him to and he is by far the best. Judging from his own remarks, he is probably a Non-returner and almost certainly not an Arahant. According to his brief personal account and online sources, he spent nine years in Myanmar/Burma starting from 1988. (Incidentally, he said he is an ethnic German who spent most of his life in Southern Africa before becoming a monk.) There, he trained under Sayadaw U Pandita and served as an interpreter for and mentored the foreign yogis who visited the meditation center that he lived in. After that period, he was sent to Nepal by Sayadaw U Pandita in 1998 to head Panditarama Lumbini. 

As for the kind of Mahasi-style vipassana he teaches, Sayadaw does not emphasize fast noting. You are expected to note and label (He makes a distinction between the two.) an object once when you first encounter it and then try to penetrate its nature as deeply as possible. For instance, at the beginning of the rising movement of the abdomen, you label the movement as rising and then observe it in as much detail as you can without repeating "rising, rising, rising...". Furthermore, you are not asked to focus on a particular part of your body and note only the objects that arise there. You use the abdominal movements as anchor and shift your attention to any object that becomes predominant in any part of the body/mind complex. You are also not expected to focus exclusively on a particular type of object, say only physical. Objects of all types that attract your attention are to be investigated. 

You get to have three interviews with him per week and relate to him the findings of your investigations, your experiences, problems, etc. Sayadaw seems to have been keeping a record of the meditative experiences of the thousands of yogis he has interviewed during his career. I don't know how comprehensive these records are but he appears to have extensive familiarity with the various phenomena associated with each stage of insight. He gives examples of these experiences during Dhamma talks and interviews. Sayadaw is a no-nonsense meditation teacher. During interviews, he will not hesitate to cut you short if he thinks you are uttering irrelevancies. He gives you ten minutes during the interviews and expects you to deliver your verbal report with speed and precision. As he is very technical, he expects detailed and technical reports. You do not have to use well-established Pali or English terminology in your reports; he encourages you to create your own vocabulary. He has a very direct, North European style of interacting with people which I have greatly appreciated. That might turn some people off though. I have witnessed a Southern European yogi get offended by Sayadaw's direct remarks and leave the center shortly afterwards. The time limit and the way he conducts the interviews put some gentle pressure on me to produce something sensible for each meeting. That pressure contributed substantially to the sense of spiritual urgency that I already had and really galvanized the practice. 

Sayadaw doesn't just leave you alone with that tension though. He gives you detailed and precise instructions that I found crucial in driving the progress along the path. Follow these instructions to the letter! In addition to guiding my practice, these instructions set very specific short term goals, and combined with the tension created during interviews, generated great energy that spurred me on with considerable speed. After each interview I would feel compelled to engage in mindful investigation of physical and mental phenomena with full commitment. This triggered, almost without exception, a new insight after each interview. Sayadaw also aroused my curiosity by enriching his instructions with interesting hints and clues. This way the practice turned into some sort of exciting treasure hunt that involved chasing after clues towards the ultimate prize. 

And the ultimate prize is what Sayadaw wants you to get a taste of. He's a goal-oriented instructor and always seems to have Path and Fruition in mind. There's no pressure on yogis to progress fast -- although he does openly expresses his enthusiasm when that's the case -- but progress is a must. I have seen him put pressure on meditators when he sees their effort waning and progress stalling. 

Being goal oriented doesn't imply being overly future oriented. Sayadaw won't have you skip the lessons to be learned at any given stage and focus on the next. He's very meticulous in this and won't push you ahead at the expense of cutting corners. He uses the four stages of enlightenment and the sixteen stages of insight models of Theravada -- although the stage you are in will not be discussed openly. Additionally, he also uses a lesser known list of so-called eighteen maha-vipassanas (eighteen chief kinds of insight-knowledge or principal insights, http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vipassanaa.htm). These are lessons to be learned during the first ten stages of insight. He has you learn all these lessons one by one and allow each stage of insight to mature fully.

To conclude, if you are a goal-oriented, earnest, gung-ho meditator, Sayadaw U Vivekananda is the kind of teacher you need. Note though that he explicitly follows the Theravada orthodoxy and definitely does not espouse the alternative approach adopted in this forum. So if you plan to do a retreat at Panditarama Lumbini and want to make full use of your time with this skilled teacher, be prepared to play with his rules because he would not have you do otherwise. Also, if you just want a taste of vipassana for whatever reason, do not waste his scant time and/or your own. There are plenty of other centers and teachers that can cater to your needs. 

(See also http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3098178)
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Paul, modified 9 Years ago at 8/12/15 7:22 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/12/15 7:22 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 8 Join Date: 8/12/15 Recent Posts
[quote=] Also, if you just want a taste of vipassana for whatever reason, do not waste his scant time and/or your own. There are plenty of other centers and teachers that can cater to your needs. 

(See also http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3098178)Hi Cem, Hi all of you! emoticon

In your opinion, is it appropiate to take a retreat at lumbini without any previous experience with the noting technique?
(I got into Vipassana with Goenka and only have experience with this technique, although I would start noting as soon as I get the confirmation from Nepal. I want to give the noting a try as it is recommended pretty much everywhere I stumble upon it.)

with metta

Paul
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Cem Keskin, modified 9 Years ago at 8/14/15 3:27 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 8/14/15 3:16 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Hi Paul,

That was exactly my situation when I arrived at Lumbini. I had no experience with Mahasi-style vipassana. I got the hang of the noting technique within a week or so and made great progress after that according to Sayadaw. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to reap good benefit from a retreat there provided that you commit to the technique and submit yourself fully to Sayadaw's instruction emoticon

Good luck!

Cem
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Cem Keskin, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 2:50 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 2:50 PM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Hello Daniel,

I had promised to put down my retreat experiences in writing. I can’t say I followed up on my promise to do it soon (sorry about that), but here it is finally at “A Six-month-long Vipassana Retreat.” I am preparing the write-up in two parts and what I have posted is the first. I would love to read your comments on it.

Best,

Cem
Peter S, modified 9 Years ago at 5/10/15 5:55 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 5/10/15 5:55 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 68 Join Date: 3/25/15 Recent Posts
Hi Cem

Great to hear from you! I'm good. Going for some more retreat time here in Australia over the coming weeks. Looking forward to it because I had to leave Lumbini for work, but was making some really good progress there. Looking forward to your review of your experience there, as I'm sure we all see it differently!

Thanks

Peter
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Cem Keskin, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 2:52 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 2:52 PM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Hello Peter,

You can find a review of my experiences at Lumbini and beyond at “A Six-month-long Vipassana Retreat.” What I have posted is Part I of a two-part write-up. I thought you might be interested.

Best,

Cem
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G Mojo, modified 8 Years ago at 12/22/15 10:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/22/15 10:22 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 15 Join Date: 3/31/14 Recent Posts
Just to add to this, I spoke with the Sayalay a few days ago using the new email address on their website.  She says they are receiving meditators as normal despite the political situation in Nepal. 

They seem to like you to contact them before arrival and confirm dates that you will start but I doubt they would turn someone away who simply turned up.  They did however want me to answer the following questions:

1. What is your motivation for wanting to practice Vipassana meditation?
2. How many retreats have yu done there?
3. Are you willing to observe the eight precepts while you are on the retreat?
4.Are you ready to practice for 12-14 hours a day according to the schedule?
5.  Do you have any physical or mental conditions that might interfere with your intensive retreat here?with best regards

I thought this might be useful to anyone who is looking to meditate there.  I will be there from the beginning of January.
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Cem Keskin, modified 8 Years ago at 12/25/15 1:53 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/25/15 1:53 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Thanks for the update G Mojo. Have a great retreat! But be prepared for the chilly weather. There are no heaters at the center apart from the two electric heaters in the Dhamma hall that don't produce much (read "any") heat. The center does have a big stock of blankets, sleeping bags, etc. though :-D Do keep us posted.
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Cem Keskin, modified 9 Years ago at 5/9/15 2:31 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 5/9/15 2:31 AM

RE: Panditarama Lumbini Incommunicado

Posts: 22 Join Date: 8/20/14 Recent Posts
Yep! I was there in Feb and Mar. You need to be VERY persistent to get a reply.

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