Is this kind of how stream entry/fruition 'works'?

Gedanken, modified 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 5:47 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 5:47 AM

Is this kind of how stream entry/fruition 'works'?

Posts: 11 Join Date: 12/4/14 Recent Posts
I remember reading the Power of Now when the realisation really hit home for me that I was not my thoughts, and that it was indeed a sixth sense. The realisation came about when I sat back and 'observed' the thoughts come and go, all by themselves and they seemed to live on their own accord. If I can observe these thoughts, how could these thoughts be me?

I've been reading a lot about fruition and equanamity lately and just listened to the Hurricane Ranch talks today (https://soundcloud.com/daneilmingram/hurricaneranch-pt1?in=daneilmingram/sets/hurricane-ranch-discussions - use soundcloud-download.com to download the three parts if you want to listen on the go).
The concept arose in me that when in high equanimity and close to fruition, it the person experiencing this will witness 'reality' as a whole (with formations occuring, vibrations etc etc). So is this similar to one watching a movie in a theatre with the movie having been shot in a first person point of view? Watching the movie go by as you are in your seat separated from it all.

If this occurred would you not lose the sense of self once that realisation or insight hits home? If you can view what you have perceived all along to be your 'reality' there can't really be a self present right?

That's enough mental masturbation for me today, back to practice.

Could anyone help clarify these thoughts with their experience?
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 8:49 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 8:35 AM

RE: Is this kind of how stream entry/fruition 'works'?

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
What you're talking about is the Advaita Vedanta enlightenment when you notice consciousness/awareness/knowing which knows all five senses plus thinking is going on. Yet thoughts can't be targeted as separate from mind so you have some more letting go to happen. Tolle's method can lead to aversion to thinking because you want to "clean the mirror" of thinking and create a dualistic perception of "thinking = bad". Cessation is when subject, object and time go into a non-experience and then you return. You then see the interdependence of consciousness to objects. Remember that Tolle and others talk about a screen, mirror, container of awareness. Consciousness is conscious by inference simply because experience of some kind is going on (including all the jhanas). Any experience (even the nothingness jhana) is a perception. Consciousness, has no space, time, location, color or shape. The best thing to do is keep practicing no matter how enjoyable and refined the experience is. The ego so badly wants to say "mission accomplished!" etc which will just get in the way. Try and test time. Notice how anything that happens technically should be going into the past right away but the present moment persists as short-term memory. That's already a subtle form of clinging right there.

When you return from cessation you still have habits/dispositions/addictions/skills/tendencies but you realise that there was no "self" and thinking, habits, dispositions, skills, tendencies are only those experiences. At the ultimate level all categories are conventions and labels (including Higgs Boson, quarks etc) We haven't found a partless part. The conventions are useful but you have to remind yourself of the emptiness of all experiences when the brain starts to cling. Basically all experiences from subject, object, and time up to having a tantrum are different levels of a self and are considered by Buddhists to be fabricated by the brain. The brain, even when just being conscious is trying to cling to measurements (especially self-measurement), shapes, colors, experience right from the get-go. So you'll be letting go of negative thinking/ruminating etc but you won't have an adversarial aversion to thinking. You'll instead be trying to skillfully fabricate. Eg. Cognitive therapy and imagining positive goals and their benefits and pursuing those things and letting go what is unskillful. See Right Effort for more information.

Make sure you don't obsess about cessation because that seems to be a common thing where people think cessation is superior to experience and they don't re-engage with experience in a skillful way. Teachers like Rob Burbea or Gil Fronsdal mention this.
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Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 11:44 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 11:44 AM

RE: Is this kind of how stream entry/fruition 'works'?

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
You've hit on the fundimental debate between two very different types of practice here, Gedanken.  If you like Eckhart and you've had some experiences using the methods, you're going to be disappointed by teachings about anatta.  It's likely your disposition has set you on a very different path from vipassana practitioners.  Whether these paths meet somewhere, I don't know, but it wouldn't be worthwhile to look for the blip out fruition doing the practice you talk about here.  What is most likely to happen if you continue practicing this way, aiming simply to stay aware, is that various states of openness and unity will appear and eventually stabilize.  There won't be any stages of disgust or despare like in the Progress of Insight because you aren't meditating to dissolve reality, you're meditating to stabilize awareness.

If you're still interested in the "emptiness" concepts in spite of this, Tibetian Buddhism uses this open awareness to examine the nature of the mind and collapse the construct after it's been stabilized.  There is a teacher who goes by the alias "Thusness" online who you might be interested in - he seems to have followed this path.  They've cataloged some of his forum posts at awakeningtoreality.com.
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Daniel - san, modified 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 2:18 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/22/14 2:13 PM

RE: Is this kind of how stream entry/fruition 'works'?

Posts: 309 Join Date: 9/9/14 Recent Posts
Nice insight and breakdown Not Tao, thank you
I would simply substitute 'MCTB vipassana practitioners' for 'vipassana practitioners' as awareness and equanimity practice is Vipassana, and I'm pretty sure Thusness is a vipassana practitioner
I have a theory that a lot of the dark night stuff and manic psychological cycling (include kundalini experience in there too) is an energetic imbalance that results from striving and effort - maybe too much pushing in practice and not allowing truth to unfold naturally. Resting as awareness may be a more balanced approach, and would most likely include more of the blissful unity features you've indicated instead of all the digust and depression etc
@ Gedanken: I agree with Not Tao that http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ is a good place to check out
I have also found http://www.aypsite.org/ has lots of useful information but teaching more of a jhana (mantra) approach to spiritual development

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