Insight vs. Concentration?

Den M, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 4:45 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 4:45 AM

Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Hey there,

In Daniel's book he advises to improve ones concentration practice before doing insght meditation as he has only heard of a few "dry insight meditators"... However, in his "favorite book", Practical Insight meditation, Mahasi Sayadaw says that pure insight training is possible - and even further: Culadasa says that if someone makes a difference between insight and concentration training you should "laugh" in his face.

I'm confused where to start. I could imagine, that pure insight would work since insight would increase concentration skill as well. But I'm not certain! Hope you have an answer for me.

Cheers emoticon
Connie Dobbs, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 5:59 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 5:59 AM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 23 Join Date: 2/10/15 Recent Posts
Den M:
Hey there,

In Daniel's book he advises to improve ones concentration practice before doing insght meditation as he has only heard of a few "dry insight meditators"... However, in his "favorite book", Practical Insight meditation, Mahasi Sayadaw says that pure insight training is possible - and even further: Culadasa says that if someone makes a difference between insight and concentration training you should "laugh" in his face.

I'm confused where to start. I could imagine, that pure insight would work since insight would increase concentration skill as well. But I'm not certain! Hope you have an answer for me.

Cheers emoticon


My simple understanding: If you'd like to clearly see certain phenomena you'd need to stay with that phenomena for some time so you can thoroughly observe it. Concentration gives you that ability. So it's useful to have that skill. The more concentration you have more easily you can discern into phenomena. Also I find it very important to relax. Mind and body. There are different techniques to do this. Only after you're totally relaxed (and alert) start with the concentration/insight practice.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 7:09 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 7:00 AM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Den,

I am in the camp of concentration naturally causes/is insight [1] --- that they are not separate (but they can be usefully seen as separate practices), just like balancing on and riding a bike also has you travel past places and to places.

So at first one practices just balancing on the moving bike (and John Culadasa Yates has a free recap of Kamalasila's nine stages of tracking the mind learning to extends its ability to stay at the breath) and then, as balance gets better (as concentration gets stable), then one can see the countryside around the biking or the city or start to trackstand, watch the gears change, etcetera. This is why concentration and insight can be seen as an inseperable process or as distinct trainings.

Like Connie noted, to me, body relaxation helps. Concentration for me is naturally improved after yoga. After a while concentration-insight is not as dependent on body supports, but relaxing/exercising/massage/sauna.. what have you.. can help develop an attention practice. (I used the phrase "attention" here because sometimes "concentration" causes stress to some people; and here Steve Shinzen Young's trainings in noting can help a person use a 'jumping' mind as the attention trainer, as the concentration training method).


Likewise, where to practice the attention? Some people put attention on the breath body-wide (like starting at the abdomen watching it rise and fall, while some people thrive minding the breath at the upperlip, like a skier flowing off a ski jump, a breeze returning up the ski jump.
Edit: And some people use an object as trainer because they find the breath too mobile or they use chanting/the like as music can be consuming and remove distraction.

______________
[1]"When you know that you are having greed, you are no longer in ignorance, but possess knowledge." ~ Tuangpulu Sayadaw, a teacher of Bill Hamilton, "Blooming in the Desert", North Atlantic Books, page 17 "What makes it meditation?"

editx3
Den M, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 7:39 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 7:39 AM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Thanks for your fast response emoticon

May I ask some more questions?
  • How did you start your meditation?
  • Did you find a teacher that was enlightened and able to teach you the path he was using? And if so how did you find him/her?

I'm from Germany and not quit sure if there even is such a teacher nearby.

I would be really happy hearing about your experience on that :-)
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 8:52 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 8:47 AM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
How did you start your meditation?

I used to just sit a lot as a kid: inside the dog house, in trees, at windows, laying on the grass looking up. But the first time I read that sitting and just observing was a fine thing to do was in Herman Hesse's "Siddhartha". Later, as it turns out, I also learned by living in remote, oceanic 'native' community and in isolated mountain community, that sitting and 'doing nothing' (listening, watching, nothing) actually is really normal to do, that life itself can be a very slow metabolism of intuitively reduced energy use/consumption. This slow-life is something that feels less available once life-time is commoditized into pricing units and one may have an ongoing life of "energy crisis" in always paying for life-time units and trinkets/addictions to placate that sense of hustle/energy crisis.

Anyway, after "Siddhartha" I had a funny WTF out-of-body experience which gave me a sense of godhood and stunned me ("What the heck am I? What was that?") and I went to study zen in Dainin Katagiri's lineage, a sitting community closest to me at the time, and reading books like "Living buddha, living christ".

Did you find a teacher that was enlightened and able to teach you the path he was using? And if so how did you find him/her?
This term "enlightened" seems inflationary to me, but I know you're speaking English for the sake of our communication, so I'm not criticising your use of it.

Does this make sense instead of "enlightenment": Um wie eine Kerze ausgelöscht werden: es ist immer noch die Bewegung der Luft, Temperatur, Steigungen von Viskosität, aber es gibt keinen Hunger, noch verzehrende Flamme. If this does make sense, many people have many unburdened moments like this. Some people have many, many moments like this and they are unimposing, weich und natürlich bewegen wie der Rauch eines erloschenen Kerze; I think everyone has had these moments and even met people who are more like this more than not.

To what sort of practice are you drawn? Maybe physical targets? Quietude? Chanting? Movement? I think you will find good teachers progressively. Even finding a "bad" teacher helps us see our own urges and why we went to see them in the first place.


Editx2: format, typo, clarity of English (German may be wrong though, don't use it much at all!)
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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 9:49 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 9:49 AM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
katy steger:

Does this make sense instead of "enlightenment": Um wie eine Kerze ausgelöscht werden: es ist immer noch die Bewegung der Luft, Temperatur, Steigungen von Viskosität, aber es gibt keinen Hunger, noch verzehrende Flamme. If this does make sense, many people have many unburdened moments like this. Some people have many, many moments like this and they are unimposing, weich und natürlich bewegen wie der Rauch eines erloschenen Kerze; I think everyone has had these moments and even met people who are more like this more than not.
Translate?  


In order like a candle be extinguished : it is still the movement of air , temperature gradients of
viscosity , but there is no hunger , nor consuming flame
and

 
soft and naturally move like the smoke of an extinguished candle

 Katy, that is cool, used Google Translate, but it still makes so much sense.

I like the first one, the phenomenon of existence are still there, the senses, the sense contacts, the sense consciousness,  just the hunger and consuming thereof is gone...

The second one reminds me of Bare Attention...

Psi

Den M, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 10:26 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 10:26 AM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 8 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
I'm sorry but I don't quite understand the German sentence about enlightment. Do you have an english version of it, or explain it a little?

I want to understand/feel the selflessness - I want to experience the clamness and peace that is referred to as "enlightment" ( Sry that I use this term again xD)

I'm still quite young and probably want to understand the common "purpose" of being. Isn't that what "enlightment" is about?
Ouh, now it is getting really philosphical. Sorry for that.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 3:14 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/16/15 3:14 PM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
I'm still quite young and probably want to understand the common "purpose" of being. 
Who would answer this or try to persuade you here; I would avoid that person.  : )


Isn't that what "enlightment" is about?

I don't think there is purpose in Theravadan buddhism, but to me, in that tradition, I see that there is an interrogation of mind and perception and changes throughout life, which inquiry would guide one to see "things as they are" and then one would naturally behave according to having seen things as they are, the more a person "sees things as they are". 

But it's your experience (it's your life, apparently) and I hope you have the utmost freedom and well-being to explore all these things from any tradition, from nature, from your own life changes-- that anyone has this safety and well-being to be care-ful and curious. 

Theravadan buddhism posits a number of unanswerable questions and even among this list of unanswerable questions and concepts people may hold dear to buddhism, "a gospel of no self"-- this too is not answered in the same Pali cannon: that the question of self/no self is not even applicable at a point.

A
nd if you decide to explore some of your experience here I think you'll find nice companions in your interests, investigation.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 9 Years ago at 2/18/15 8:56 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 2/18/15 8:43 AM

RE: Insight vs. Concentration?

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
"Still quite young" Den, 
I'm still quite young and probably want to understand the common "purpose" of being. Isn't that what "enlightment" is about?
Ouh, now it is getting really philosphical. Sorry for that
"Being philosophical" is natural! This "Love of knowledge" is also "what's worth learning?" and "how to learn what's worth learning?" It is your life and I hope you get this chance for as long as you like.


Here is an excerpt from a book by Jack Kornfield referring to different expressions of what would be "enlightened" from some Buddhist practitioners,

An Excerpt from Bringing Home the Dharma: Awakening Right Where You Are by Jack Kornfield
"Whatever our gate to enlightenment, the first real taste, stream-entry, is followed by many more tastes as we learn to stabilize, deepen, and embody this wisdom in our own unique life. What does it look like? The facets of enlightenment express themselves marvelously in our teachers. Each manifests enlightenment with his or her own flavors.

"Dipa Ma, the wonderful grandmother in Calcutta who was one of our great masters, was a tiny person with a powerfully trained mind. Dipa Ma expressed enlightenment as love. She devotedly instructed her students in mindfulness and loving-kindness, and then she hugged them, putting her hands on their head, face, and shoulders, whispering metta phrases. They got drunk on love. Like Dipa Ma, Ammachi, a Hindu teacher from South India, manifests enlightenment as the 'hugging guru.' She goes into a trance, and all night long she holds people; she might take as many as two thousand people onto her lap and hug them. This is enlightenment as love.

"For Zen master Suzuki Roshi, enlightenment was expressed by being just where you are. A woman told Suzuki Roshi she found it difficult to mix Zen practice with the demands of being a householder: 'I feel I am trying to climb a ladder, but for every step upward I slip backward two steps.' 'Forget the ladder,' Suzuki Roshi told her. 'When you awaken, everything is right here on the ground.' He explained how the desire to gain anything means you miss the reality of the present. 'When you realize the truth that everything changes, and find your composure in it, there you find yourself in nirvana.' Asked further about enlightenment, Suzuki Roshi said, 'Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings; there is only enlightened activity.' If you think you are enlightened, that is not it. The goal is to let go of being anyone special and meet each moment with beginner's mind.

"Mahasi Sayadaw, the Burmese master, expressed enlightenment as emptiness. Watching him on his visits to America, we saw that he rarely laughed or judged. Instead, he exuded a quiet equanimity. Events and conversations would happen around him while he remained still. He was like space — transparent, nobody there. This is enlightenment as emptiness.

"For Ajahn Jumnien, a Thai forest master, awakening is not only empty, it's full. His robe is covered in hundreds of sacred medallions, and he employs dozens of skillful means to teach — guided meditations, sacred chants, mantras, chakra and energy practices, forest medicines, animal stories and shamanic rituals. His dharma is all-hours, nonstop, full of life and joy. There's a sense of abundance in him, and happiness just pours out like a fountain. He expresses enlightenment as fullness.

"Thich Nhat Hanh expresses enlightenment as mindfulness. When he has come to teach at Spirit Rock, two thousand people sit meditatively on the hillside and eat their apples mindfully in preparation for his arrival. A bell is rung, and he walks slowly and deliberately up the road — so mindfully that everyone sighs, 'Ahhh.' The consciousness of two thousand people is transformed just seeing this man walk, each step the whole universe. As we watch, we drop into the reality of the eternal present. This is where we awaken. Enlightenment as mindfulness.

"The Dalai Lama expresses enlightenment as compassionate blessing. For instance, once at the end of his stay at a San Francisco hotel, he asked the management to bring out all the employees. This meant the people who chop vegetables in the kitchen, who clean the carpets late at night, who make the beds. The big circular driveway filled with all those who made this hotel work but who were usually unrecognized. One by one, he looked at each one with full presence, took each person's hand, and said, 'Thank you,' moving unhurriedly just to make sure that he connected with each one fully. The Dalai Lama personifies enlightenment as compassionate blessing.

"Ajahn Chah's manifestation was the laughter of wisdom. Whether with generals or ministers, farmers or cooks, he would say, 'When I see how much people are struggling, I look at them with great sympathy and ask, "Are you suffering? Ahhh, you must be very attached. Why not let go?" ' His teachings were deep and straight to the point. He'd say, 'If you let go a little, you'll be a little happy. If you let go a lot, you'll be a lot happy. If you let go completely, you'll be completely happy.' He saw suffering, its cause, and that freedom is possible in any moment. He expressed enlightenment as wisdom."

The word "enlightened" in English has an additive effect as in the Western period of Enlightenment when one was adding skills, like reading and learning facts as well as taking personal responsibility, being skeptical of authorities, trying to find new ways of living in community. This sort of "enlightenment" can also be associated with Buddhist "nibbana" ("unbinding", "blowing out" like a flame, often translated "enlightened", "awakened"), in particular with regards to one's impact/influence in community (also known as: social responsibility).

Here's a paradox in Enlightenment (as above) : there is the intention to become autonomous, knowledgeable, skeptical and personally accountable and to contribute to community (if one lives in community) and yet communities are (for a social animal) an authoritative, social regulator!

So some communities institutionalize this paradox by welcoming debate and argumentation, knowing that argumentation and challenge exists in communities which value autonomy, ongoing knowledge, change...

So there can the behaviour of the "Golden Rule" alongside vigorous debate. 


There are many buddhist traditions, so if you like buddhism then you can visit and practice well in different traditions.


There are many philosophies to consider for one's life, including even anarchy. Across Buddhist traditions, though, there are four tenants:
seeing that there is dukkha (stress, unsatisfactoriness),
seeing that there is a cause of dukkha,
seeing that there is an end to dukkha,
and there is a path to practice which causes this end of dukkha (the unbinding through non-clinging).

In general, across Buddhist traditions, one point of relief from dukkha (stress, unsatisfactoriness) is said to experience life/to live without clinging in any moment

And like other philosophies, there are said to be reliable behaviours to employ along the way. In Buddhism these are paramis/paramitas, which differ a little from tradition to tradition, but are similar to this:

generosity
ethical discipline
patience
joyous perseverance
meditative stabilization
wisdom

It is very hard to find anyone who practices such lists of perfected mind perfectly or to find any person who only has skilful mental states like the four brahma viharas: friendliness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity.  I have not met this person in the mirror or anywhere else.

Knowing this imperfection, a person may work on themselves among others, aiming to "not cling" to own-mistakes and aiming to "not cling" to others' mistakes.  Around the world communities that experience violence within their own communities work very hard for reconciliation. Here is a TEDTalk on why it's useful to everyone to move on in reconcilation as soon as possible, with Dr. Nadine Burke.
So communities try to institutionalize dynamic debate, working together, and reconciliation between the two.


Back to Buddhism: in addition to social engagment in a constantly dynamic environment (changing sentients, changing environment), it values personal attention to mind-- meditation-- so as to learn in a controlled environment like sitting on a cushion or practicing a repetitive chant or a repetitive craft-- how is mind moving about, what is the mind urging one to do and do we need to do that? So there is meditation in action and meditation on the cushion and learning what does the mind do about what places a mind can alight (satipatthana).


It can be quite a study, years, feeling attraction for the study and revulsion for the study. And the investigation is happening while the person and the world are still changing. This can be overwhelming.

So usually meditation is "housed" in calming practices, like breathing meditation. Breathing meditation "calms" the brainstem and can reduce the chances a person may interact with fight-flight-freezing conduct, untill a person may no longer give rise to those emotions: fighting, fleeing, freezing. I have not met such a person in the mirror or in others, but admire the effort and re-effort in anyone. 


Edit 2: Again, to your opening post, like others, in using ānāpānasati, I do not separate insight and concentration practice, but I have seen in others where it is useful to study the mind with a view that there are two distinct practices. So hopefully you find a community and practice with them in person for bit to get started in something that suits you at this moment.


That's a lot. I hope there's something useful in there for you, if only the realization that you may start somewhere with some practice you think you may like, and to try not to be exploited, to try not to exploit-- 

________________
editx1: typos, clarity

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