It seems to me now, after practicing ayp for the past month and beginning to feel very pleasant sensations during meditation, that reaching jhana is not about willpower or concentration so much as it is about letting go of all the distractions in our mind and being able to be at peace with simply our object of focus(breath, mantra, etc).

So, when my mind wanders to very strong emotions or thoughts during meditation, I shouldn't forcibly redirect my focus back to my breath. I should do it gently, and should my mind refuse and decide to continue dwelling on those thoughts, I should just allow it until it passes.

What do you guys think? In order to attain jhana, should our concentration during meditation be based on willpower, or should it be very relaxed and gentle and allowing the mind to wander if the thoughts are too strong?

I am asking because I normally approach concentration meditation with a willpower approach. I must force myself to sit down and meditate, and fight through all these horrible feelings of boredom and restlessness. I have decided to take the ayp approach of only meditating half an hour twice a day, and taking a very relaxed and easy going attitude with my practice. Meditation is a lot more pleasant now, but I also feel like this easy going mentality is also making me less disciplined because I'm less inclined to use my free time to meditate. So I am just wondering how far this easy going approach should be taken? Ayp has served me well so far, but I can't help but question the lack of emphasis on discipline beyond the two mandatory 30min sessions.

The latter, in my experience. Especially when one is just at the beginning stages of a practice. Once you are able to discern dhyana when it is happening and know how it feels, then the former two methods can come into play as a result of added experience in entering the dhyana state.

BTW, what is "ayp"? (I wish people would state first what the acronym means before using it. For example (e.g.) )


Yes. But here is where you need to be cautious not to allow your sati (mindfulness) to slip, too, when making the attempt to become familiar with and practice dhyana. Many times people who begin seeking to practice dhyana do so in order to experience the pleasant "feeling" or sensation of being in the dhyana state. It can be experienced as a release of stress, which in many cases is just what these practitioners were seeking in the first place, rather than to increase their self-knowledge using dhyana as a means to build concentration.

When a dhyana practice becomes based on experiencing the pleasure of the sensation, it can lead to an over emphasis (and reliance) on its pleasant aspects to the detriment of its ability to help one train the mind in deeper levels of concentration. Therefore, one must be on the watch (i.e. mindful) for a feeling of dullness (which is indicative of losing sati) and fight that with increased mindfulness to combat the dullness of the mental experience. If you feel that dullness, that generally means you are entering a trance state, which is exactly the opposite of what the practice of dhyana is meant do accomplish.

Bottomline: just be careful and cautious, and don't let yourself become caught up in the "jhana" experience that you may have read and fantasized about. That is why I spell it "dhyana" in order to separate it from the "jhana" experience that people read about and become entranced by its romantic descriptions. Dhyana — that is, the kind that will help you achieve awakening — is all about helping the mind to become more disciplined in achieving a state of concentration during which the mind will remain relatively undisturbed by proliferating thoughts, and thereby be able to arrive at realizations about what the Dhamma teaches.


Yes. That will work. Remember, meditation, as one is beginning to learn about it, is a subjective activity. So, you have to watch how your mind acts and reacts to things you experiment with. That is how you learn about what works for YOU! This is called "insight." Calm and insight (that is, samatha and vipassana) work together in the meditative process. The sooner people become aware of this, the quicker they begin to make progress. And the more able they are to help themselves along the path.


You should turn this around and view it as having the discipline to sit twice a day, rather than beating yourself up over not sitting more. If you want to sit more, then the opportunity is still there, you just have to take advantage of it.

Also, consider the following: if you would like to increase your discipline, then consider lengthening your sits gradually until they equal one hour each. For example, build up to two 45 minute sits. Then increase it to two one hour sits. And maintain these levels in subsequent sits until you are able to do one hour easily. In other words, don't let your discipline to sit for the self-imposed time period slip simply because you feel like it. One hour is, in my opinion, the optimum time period to aim for. As one's practice moves forward and advances, it provides sufficient time for one to be able to achieve the realizations they need in order to decrease dukkha in their lives.

If you're going to alter it for one sit or two, make certain that it is for a good reason and not just because you "feel" like it. That is, unless something in your outer life (like a commitment you've made) would be interfered with by a longer sit. In other words, it is okay to occasionally sit for shorter periods than the one you've designated for yourself. And then, don't beat yourself up over allowing yourself to slip just that one time. Be determined to get back at it the following day. This is all about building concentration and self discipline.

Hey Rich,

I just made a thread about this exact thing: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5666656

I think an important realization for me was that concentration IS letting go and relaxing. Think of it this way, the goal is to have a clear and steady mind. Are you going to get to that kind of stillness by adding force and exertion, or by removing it? When you are completely relaxed, the mind just has no reason to move. Concentration isn't holding still through effort (that effort is a lack of stillness), it's becoming still by removing effort.

So here's the thing, you do need to put your attention on something repeatedly until the awareness blooms into jhana, but there's no reason to create extra stress to overcome with the method. By thinking of concentration as a forced activity, you were probably just creating extra distractions to overcome. I actually had this same problem, so I can relate. So like I say in that other thread, I stopped trying to sit perfectly still, and I stopped trying to force thoughts out of my head, and I just counted breaths. Very specifically, watch yourself for the sensation that you need to be doing something, or something needs to happen, and drop that tension. (An example might be: You notice an itch and you have a desire to scratch it, and then you have a desire to resist the itch, and then these two desires battle it out and you haven't seen the object for 10 seconds.  At any pont in that equasion, you can go back to the object.  I usually just keep counting the breath and scratch the itch automatically.  If we can drive all the way home automatically, we can shift our weight and scratch itches automatically too.)  If you notice tension around the idea of watching the object, don't stop watching the object, just drop that tension and go back to the object. The tension is actually what you're paying attention to at that point.  If tension keeps building, change the object itself to letting go of tension and just do that.  You can use your sense of relaxation as a meditation object, and this can help break some bad habits.

Mainly, the mindset is important. I like to think of it as developing perfect patience. Whatever comes into your mind, just approach it with the idea that it can wait until later and go back to the object.  So it isn't like a crusader hunting down distractions and slaying them, and it isn't like a fighter pilot dodging missles, it's more like floating gently on the surface of a lake.  You can't do that with tense muscles or by flailing around.

As to your worry that it won't take you into jhana - it's actually the opposite. This method will take you there faster and the jhana will be more complete. Whenever I've tried to do jhana by bearing down and using force, that force never quite left. Jhana-ish factors can arise, but they're kind of sour and not completely pleasant. There's a lot of grasping and flailing in the whole equasion, like trying to swim in a lot of waves. If you get to jhana by removing effort, the jhana factors just engulf the mind and it's completely effortless. It's like being whisked away.

Hi Ian,

Sorry, I assumed ayp was widely known for some reason. http://www.aypsite.org/10.html . It's a yogic meditation system. My current practice is to do 10 minutes of spinal breathing, which is visualizing and tracing a white knot going up/down my spine as I breath, and then 20 minutes of mantra meditation. That consists of a single 30 minute session. The site puts a lot of emphasis on taking a very relaxed approach, as well as discouraging from extending the session or doing more than 2 sessions a day, as "overloading" becomes a problem, with symptoms such as irritation, headaches, and other mental/physical discomforts. I have also refrained from ejaculating because from what I've read, the system's goal is to bring sexual energy upwards and redirecting it, so it makes sense that if I have more sexual energy then I'll make faster progress.

As for dullness: Well, I am not sure. Despite feeling pleasant and pleasurable sensations, I still recognize that the goal is to focus my attention on the object. I also realize that the whole reason I am feeling good is because I am focusing on the object, and if I want to continue feeling good, I need to continue focusing on the object. Ayp's article on the mantra meditation says that as long as you are doing your best to favor the mantra over other thoughts and emotions, you are doing the meditation right. Would you agree with that statement?

Thank you, that's a good point. It's funny, even though meditation is pleasurable, I still have a hard time making myself do the morning session after I wake up, or the evening session after I just spent many hours in my daily life being anything but mindful and aware.

Anyway, I guess I just wanted to see how much ayp's approach is in line with the style of meditation that is advocated on this site and in MCTB. I think I definitely need to sit more sessions though. I am not as disciplined and mindful in my daily life as I would like to be. Ayp thinks the mantra meditation is too "powerful" to do more than in the prescribed sessions, so I will just go back to the breath.

Oh I forgot to mention, one of the reasons you may be having a hard time getting motivated is if there is extra tension when you first sit down to meditate.  Back when I stopped meditating for a while, it was because I would sit down and there would be a wall of unpleasantness and physical pain to overcome.  This doesn't have to happen, so if it is happening to you, try approaching meditation like sitting down to watch a movie.  You don't need to sit on the floor perfectly still and you don't need to harden your mind and prepare for battle.  You shouldn't regress before you progress from your normal, everyday state of mind.  You should just be able to sit down and go into a steady calming until the jhana factors arise.  So drop anything that's adding extra tension to your practice.

Thanks Tao. From my experience as well, it would seem that you are correct. Meditation does feel a lot more ... natural, is the word I think, when I use the attitude and mentality that you spoke of. Maybe it's just very easy to fall into the trap of wanting to use willpower to force thoughts away rather than letting them be and returning to the object. And when you think about it, that's giving in to aversion of disliking the current mental state I'm in and wanting it to go away faster.

Your approach also is in line with the practice that I am following. I wonder if there is anyone who might disagree with this approach, and advocate the more forceful approach? I know there are certain books I've read that seems to advocate that approach. I know the book "mindfulness in plain english" says that in meditation, your mindfulness like is a gatekeeper who's goal is to only allow your object to reach your attention, and prevent all other objects from coming into your attention. That analogy sounds like a forceful approach to me. Do you know people who have success in jhana who take a more willpower based mentality on meditation?

Though I am a bit confused when you said that if tension continues arising, I should switch from the object into letting go of that tension? Isn't the way of letting go to return to the object? The thing is, when I experience strong tension, whether physical or mental, I actually am not able to actively let go of them. I just kind of have to return to the object and wait for them to pass, however long it might take.

Well.. I think it's because after being in a hazy dull mental state, I just feel too lazy to have to focus my mind on anything. Even if I'm focusing in a gentle and easy going way, it's still mental effort that I need to exert. My mind would rather continue being dull and hazy, and I have to use willpower to push myself to start concentrating. But once the ball gets rolling and my mental state starts shifting, it starts becoming more pleasant.

So.. I'm not sure if my aversion to meditation is avoidable, except by preventing myself from ever being in a dull/hazy mental state so I won't ever have to make that uncomfortable shift from dull to mindful.

Rich,

If you're having a hard time letting go of particularly strong tensions, I would recommend trying out a couple different techniques and seeing if they might be worth working into your practice as if befits you.

First is Thanissaro Bhikku's instructions based off his interpretation of the Anapanasati sutta, by which he recommends understanding the breath not just as something happening in the lungs/throat/nostrils, but as something that can be felt happening in the entire body, even when lung breathing is not happening. Here is a transcripted talk of his, with the relevant part being his covering of the first Tetrad of the sutta (though I would recommend reading through the rest):

http://media.audiodharma.org/documents/The_Breath_-_A_Vehicle_for_Liberation.pdf

Second is Reggie Ray's 10 points practice, which is a lying down practice and involves a body-scanning technique aimed at releasing tension:

http://www.dharmaocean.org/meditation/learn-to-meditate/learn-to-meditate-foundational-practices/

Also, in my experience, dullness/haziness can often simply be symptoms of tiredness, in which case allowing yourself to rest is the best option. To my mind, there is a distinct difference between the kind of dullness/haziness that represents sloth/torpor (which can be combatted with meditation with a modicum of effort) and that which represents simple tiredness.

Let me think how to explain this...

What I've noticed is that awareness and concentration aren't actually related to staying on the object, but rather it's about stopping the need for movement. So, if it feels like you aren't concentrating on the object or keeping it in your awareness, that actually isn't such a big deal. The goal isn't to have more and more awareness stick to the object. The goal is actually to relax all distractions so awareness feels no need to move. It just stays still because it has no desire to go anywhere.

So when there is tension, that tension is always related to "I should..." or "I want..." or "I have to do..." - this is precisely what is moving the mind around. A kind of urging, clenching, thrusting, lunging, grasping. All of the thoughts that come into your mind are accompanied by goals and ambitions and desires. When you go back to the object, you are using it as a support to forget this tension. The object is just a way to let go, it isn't a new goal to achieve. If paying attention to the object is another obligation, then it is just perpetuating this mindset. It's just another "have to..." What it's supoosed to be is simply a place to go back to that is in the here and now. A support, or an anchor. A boat that's anchored still drifts around, it just has something there to hold on to so it doesn't go too far.

Maybe think of it like this.  If you are sitting on a swing, do you have to hold on for dear life to keep from falling off, or do you just kind of grasp lightly to maintain your balance and enjoy the ride?

When you reach a state where you feel no obligation to do anything, there is a pleasant feeling that accellerates into rapture and concentration blooms out of this. Jhana creates concentration, it isn't achieved by concentrating - see what I mean. If you don't feel like you're getting "more aware" that's perfectly fine. Jhana does not come from an effort to build awareness, it comes from dropping all effort and desire.

Put another way, the object is completely unimportant. It's only there as a crutch - something to put attention on to get away from having the attention on something else. When you become skilled at moving the attention off of things, there's actually no need for an object. You can just do jhana by letting go of everything. Letting go means dropping it, forgetting about it, letting the world turn for a little while without you. It's easy to get caught up in feelings too, but they're the same. Just drop everything. It's not something to do, but rather something to stop doing.

It's actually very helpful to consider all thoughts as an effort to escape the "now." All negative feelings also arise from trying to fight or change things. Consider the thoughts that run through your head. Some examples that are obvious are thoughts about doing chores or finishing some work. On the next level are thoughts about mean things you might have said or thoughts about something you don't want to do - both of these are a way to prevent the unpleasant things you're imagining from happening or happening again. Then there are thoughts about meditation like, "I should be focusing on the breath," or, "I should resist this desire." These aren't even verbal a lot of the time, they're just a physical bracing against reality. The problem is, basically, that we can't trust the world to keep spinning if we don't hold it all together in our head. The most distracting are thoughts about how you feel. These pretend to exist here and now, but they're still just a kind of pining for the future. "If only I could get to jhana, then I wouldn't feel so crappy..." With this, you just need to realize that the thought itself is the stress. The desire to escape is, itself the stress. Just forget the whole thing and go back to the object.

So, going back to the object is a huge relief. You keep realizing that, for a little while, you get to stop hold ing everything together and just drop it all. The object becomes your best friend. Sometimes I just count during the day because the association itself has become so pleasant.

Think about these words: reckless abandon, carefree, unshakeable, emptied out, open, unhindered.  Think of all your problems as the loose ends of a fraying piece of fabric.  You feel like you need to hold these down with your mind so they don't fray any more than they have.  You think you'll only be happy when the tapestry is completely fixed.  We're supersticious. We believe that, just by thinking about things, we can hold them together or fix them.  You want to adopt the attitude that it's okay if things fray even more.  It's okay if the whole tapestry unwinds while you're not paying attention.  The threads are each thing you cling to in life.  Life is a constant wind trying to rip it to pieces.  The practice of meditation is the practice of giving in.  Giving up.  Allowing that wind to blow the whole thing apart.  The threads are not you, and neither is the tapestry.  It can be terrifying to let go - it can seem impossible to do it - but when you actually do let go, it happens with a whimper, not a bang.  You don't even notice, really.  You just let yourself be more content.  You let go of that feeling that you have to keep it all together.

Does all that make sense? More than anything, it's the way you are approaching your mind that matters. You want to ALLOW yourself to let go and forget your troubles. You can't force it because that's just creating a new thing you have to hold on to.  I t's just one more thread you're trying to tie everything together with.  It's just one more obligation on the list of things the mind needs to keep together. The point of jhana meditation is to teach the mind how to stop holding on to these things. After this happens, the mind discovers that its natural abiding state is pure serenity, and the stress we feel is always just coming from trying to keep the world in a certain shape.

This can be hard to explain, I guess, so I hope this makes sense. It can seem very contradictory to say, "Concentrate on the object," while at the same time say, "Let go of everything," but the point to realize is that they're exactly the same thing.

EDIT: Added some paragraphs.

Hi Rich,

You're receiving a lot of good insightful advice here from both Not Tao and Incandescent Flower. Just have to figure out what works for you.


Aahh, yes. Yogic meditation methods. That's what I started out with when I began my practice back in 1980. Using a system of meditation taught to me by a former SRF (Self Realization Fellowship) member and monk. In fact, the method you are using is a pared down version of the one I was taught, which was called the Kriyas (Kriya yoga). I would do sits extending from one to one and a half hours in the beginning. All because I was told that "the more you meditate, the more karma you burn off." However, I was never given a definition of what the instructor meant by the word "karma." He let me make my own assumptions. Anyway, it really worked to get me enthusiastic about meditation and meditating. I was initially given a simple mantra meditation technique, the yin-yang technique, which synchronized the mantra with the in-breath and the out-breath. It works in the same way as samatha meditation does in Buddhist meditation.

The kriyas, which I was later taught after a few weeks perfecting the yin-yang technique, consisted of what amounts to a very similar instruction that you have been given, visualizing pranayama energy traveling up and down the spine in sync with a different mantra being breathed in through the mouth, the air touching the roof of the mouth on the in-breath and the out-breath. Except that there was an added twist in that the energy was supposed to be visualized going up in a clockwise spiral, and down in a reverse (or counter-clockwise) spiral. I really bought into this stuff back then because I really didn't know any better. Looking back on it now, I wish I had been taught Buddhist meditation techniques and practices. It wouldn't have taken me nearly thirty years to complete the path (as there was no path in what I was initially taught). However, it did provide me with a wealth of experience in various meditation techniques, which has served me well over the years.


The power of suggestion can have a lot to do with anyone who experiences headaches or other irritations or discomforts. That's one reason I don't advocate teaching people a metaphysically based system of meditation such as kriya yoga and the system you are learning.


Generally, yes. It is good instruction that any qualified meditation teacher should be subscribing to their students.

I've studied a whole wide variety of meditation methods and practices in my time, and out of all those I've studied, I recommend the approach that Gotama takes with mindfulness of breathing. It is simple. It doesn't involve a lot of visualization. And it allows the person to begin paying attention to an object that is always with them, even when they are not performing a formal meditation. The breath which is always with us and within the reach of mindful awareness any time we can remember to be aware of it. It can bring the mind back into the present moment and mindfulness. I also found it easier to enter into a dhyana state from using the object of the breath. Put that together with the Dhamma that Gotama teaches, and you have a winning system of self-development.


Yes, mornings were often difficult for me also. Especially when I was having to go to work soon after. I had trouble keeping from wanting to fall asleep. So, I just waited until after work, and meditated in the evenings, when I was wide awake. Depending on what your morning rituals are, just make sure you are wide awake before deciding to do a sit. If you have to take a shower first, sometimes that helps to wake the system up. If you can manage it, spend about five minutes time just becoming mindful of your breathing before you begin your sit. This will greatly enhance your sit and allow you to gain more from it than not establishing mindfulness beforehand.


AYP's approach is a very different approach than what is recommended in MCTB. At a glance of their websight, while there are some parallels in practice, methods in Raja Yoga generally tend to take an exceedingly different approach than does the Dhamma. If awakening is your ultimate goal, then it is best to follow instruction from the horse's mouth – Gotama. And I recommend this from personal experience.


That is a good approach if you are set on following the AYP approach. Resuming mindfulness of breathing will allow you to extend the time of the meditation.

During a busy work day, what you can also do is, on the occasion when you remember to, use your awareness of the breath to bring the mind back into the present moment as a mindfulness practice. It will allow you to catch your mind before or just after it decides to become unmindful.

Not Tao,

That makes sense to me. It makes sense, but at the same time it's hard for me to wrap my logical mind around it. But it makes sense, because I have had moments that felt exactly like what you said during some of my sessions. It seems that you would agree with ayp's approach to meditation, too. I was feeling some skepticism about it before, but you explained it in an in-depth and logical way which curbed most of my skepticism.

Ian And,

Well, I have felt undeniable physical and energetic sensations from yogic practices. I think perhaps yogic practice and jhana meditation can supplement each other. I just feel so much more energy and willpower in me than before, and it's just a matter of being able to tap into it and redirect it into mindfulness.

Still, it sounds like you are older and much more experienced than me so maybe you're right. I don't know, but I still don't think I should drop ayp when it's giving me tangible results.

Rich,

As for your question about effort, I would say that it's a question of balance, and that the best indicator of whether we're working too hard or not working hard enough is our own bodies and intuitive judgment. Does it feel like you're doing something that's good for you? Have you been running in circles for the past 10 minutes? Have you been there at all? These are times during your meditation when you might want to make some subtle adjustments, to get better in line with whatever it is you're trying to achieve with meditation (calming the energies, gaining insight, developing one-pointedness, etc.). In this sense, meditation is a neverending process of experimentation: when does it feel "just right"? If you're interested, Ajaan Lee's "Knowledge" (which you can find here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/knowledge.html) covers some of the technical aspects of this, which to him is a matter of balancing directed thought and evaluation, resulting in stillness. Too much stillness, and you lose sight of what's going on, too much thought, and . . . well, you know. The important thing is, it's all about intuition, and that's something that supercedes any concepts or rules we might think we have for meditation.