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Do arahants have afflictive feelings?

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Do arahants have afflictive feelings? John 2/28/15 5:02 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? John P 2/28/15 7:27 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Ian And 2/28/15 10:04 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Not Tao 2/28/15 11:04 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Ian And 2/28/15 11:14 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Psi 3/1/15 11:04 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/3/15 3:31 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Not Tao 3/4/15 12:21 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? John P 3/4/15 12:35 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/4/15 3:01 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? John P 3/4/15 3:48 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/5/15 2:33 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? John P 3/5/15 5:29 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/5/15 6:02 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/5/15 7:26 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Blue Jay 3/5/15 7:04 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Not Tao 3/5/15 4:36 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/5/15 9:31 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/6/15 3:29 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/6/15 7:26 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/6/15 9:53 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Laurel Carrington 3/6/15 10:14 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/6/15 6:53 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/6/15 5:48 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/6/15 6:33 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/6/15 8:42 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/6/15 9:44 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/6/15 10:37 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/7/15 2:08 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/7/15 9:11 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/7/15 2:32 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/7/15 3:21 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/7/15 4:32 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/7/15 3:49 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/8/15 8:17 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/8/15 6:46 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/9/15 6:30 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/9/15 9:15 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Laurel Carrington 3/9/15 9:38 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/11/15 2:35 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Laurel Carrington 3/11/15 9:33 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/10/15 8:10 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/12/15 3:48 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/10/15 11:13 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/10/15 10:35 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alexander Rice 3/10/15 10:59 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/10/15 11:01 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Laurel Carrington 3/10/15 11:26 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/11/15 9:55 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/10/15 11:26 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 3/10/15 11:48 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/11/15 10:03 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/7/15 3:43 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/7/15 3:44 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/7/15 4:28 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/7/15 9:09 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/7/15 9:18 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/8/15 12:11 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Nikolai . 3/8/15 12:10 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/8/15 3:06 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/8/15 5:46 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Not Tao 3/8/15 11:39 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/9/15 12:06 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? CJMacie 3/9/15 6:36 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Bill F. 3/8/15 12:20 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/8/15 3:24 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/7/15 9:41 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/7/15 8:52 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/6/15 5:57 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/7/15 9:31 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Psi 3/6/15 3:24 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/6/15 4:35 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Psi 3/9/15 8:03 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/9/15 6:38 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Not Tao 3/6/15 4:21 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/6/15 5:04 PM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Pål 3/7/15 8:47 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/5/15 4:38 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alexander Rice 3/5/15 6:11 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Alin Mathews 3/5/15 12:03 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Banned For waht? 3/6/15 1:14 AM
RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings? Banned For waht? 3/6/15 1:27 AM
Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
2/28/15 5:02 PM
Like fear, anger, envy, longing, sorrow, sadness?

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
2/28/15 7:27 PM as a reply to John.
There is a sutta for that! Upatissa Sutta.

Sariputta asks himself: "'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?'"

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
2/28/15 10:04 PM as a reply to John P.
Your answer lies within that same sutta:

"Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair."

The only way to find out is to achieve. A wise man once told me that "truth told to another is a lie." What he meant was, what is true for one man may not be true for another. And that there is no way of communicating that truth to another beyond their experiencing the same.

There is an ancient saying which rather obscurely sheds some light on this reply: "Those who know, don't say. And those who say, don't know."

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
2/28/15 11:04 PM as a reply to John.
There are actually a number of suttas that reference the complete absence of feelings.  When the Buddha uses the word "empiness" it's often in reference to being empty of feelings, and where he uses the "this is exquisite, this is peace, the ending of all fabrications, nibbana" phrase, he is specifically asked how one could be happy with the absence of feelings and he responds that the very absence of feeling is the highest happiness. 

I'm going to be lazy and not look up my references.  Maybe someone else who knows them better could give the exact ones?

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
2/28/15 11:14 PM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
There are actually a number of suttas that reference the complete absence of feelings.  When the Buddha uses the word "empiness" it's often in reference to being empty of feelings, and where he uses the "this is exquisite, this is peace, the ending of all fabrications, nibbana" phrase, he is specifically asked how one could be happy with the absence of feelings and he responds that the very absence of feeling is the highest happiness. 

Yes, I fully agree. Nice way to look at the topic from a slightly different angle or spin.

Yet, in order to experience it, one still must do the work to discover the origin of one's vedana and apply insight to that discovery.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/1/15 11:04 PM as a reply to John.
[quote=Do Arahants have afflictive feeling?
John]Like fear, anger, envy, longing, sorrow, sadness?I would say, no, they do not.

 Only from extrapolating that the above emotions do not exist when one is in Pure Mindfulness, Bare Attention, so from that, if a mind were fully trained, the above emotions would not arise, for there is nothing for the above emotions to arise from.  

Also, as one trains the mind the above mentioned emtions arise less and less, and arise with less and less forcefulness, and dissipate faster and faster, so, also from that it could be exptrapolated that there may be a time when the above emotions would not arise at all.

But, that is just as much a speculation to say that it is possible as it is speculation to say that it is not possible.

And, I believe, one should always stay somewhat open minded.

For as Henry Ford has said, "You can either think you can , or you can think you can't, either way you'll be right."

Personally, I just practice to practice, it is just a habit, or a hobby,

like whittling wood, only it is whittling the mind....

Form what ye will...

Psi

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/3/15 3:31 AM as a reply to John.
Sutta Arahants don't and MCTB "arahants" do but are quite happy anyway it seems. Sources: the suttas and MCTB. I don't get it how Daniel can talk about the four noble truths and still not use the emotional models of enlightenment. I haven't read all of MCTB though so I might have misunderstood this. Even though I'm very provoked by the book I'm also very thankful for it.

Edit: by the way, I think I remember Daniel writing that some people think they are enlightened while just stuck in the formless spheres. Maybe MCTB arahants think they're enlightened while just stuck in the nanas. Here I really might have misunderstood things though...

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/4/15 12:21 PM as a reply to Pål.
Pal, something I wish I would have realized before about MCTB is that Daniel mixes a lot of his personal opinions in with the traditional ideas.  For example, most Theravada Buddhist monks would agree that an arahant is someone who has removed all stress and suffering - all aflictive emotions.  Daniel rejects this idea, but mixes it in with the traditional ideas, so it's tempting to reject the progress of insight along with his descriptions of cycling and dark night periods if you don't agree with his descriptions.  It might be good to follow up reading MCTB with some research into what the traditional sources are saying about the nanas and what the insights are supposed to be.  There is a lot of healthy debate out there and Daniel's descriptions are very idiosyncratic and personalized to his experience.  He obviously has had a very dramatic life, but it's questionable how much of that is related to meditation practice and he doesn't make it very clear that he's describing anecdotes a lot of the time.

As an example, when the nanas are described in traditional sources, they are very specificly related to insights about the nature of emptiness and anatta.  A lot of people use the term "dark night" on here to describe any kind of depressed state or period of negativity, but the insight knowledges make it clear that dissolution is the direct experience of seeing the phenomena of the self passing away, and the resulting nanas of fear and misery are related to the existential crisis that follows - seeing reality as you know it fade out and dissolve while trying to find something permanent and reliable to stand firm on.  Eventually there is a "reobservation" of these phenomena and emptiness is embraced as a positive.  This results in a state of equanimity and sets the stage for the complete cessation of consciousness and the insight this cessation provides into the nature of stress.  The way these terms are used on the forum here is very loose and unspecific, and I think this throws a lot of people off and creates a lot of confusion about meditation and its effects.

So, while Daniel's book can function as an introduction to the material, if it "provokes you" it might be better just to set it aside and get your information from other places.  If the book has the effect of pushing you away from Theravada ideas, like it did for me, it can hold you back.  If you are finding it helpful to be provoked, though, don't let me stop you!  I just know I wasted a lot of time in the past by rejecting the whole package when what I was really doing was disagreeing with Daniel's specific interpretation.  Once I understood this I was able to get a lot more from what Daniel wrote - mainly because I no longer felt the weight of the whole tradition behind what he was writing.  Rather, he is one yogi who feels like he has accomplished what he set out to do, and is writing about his experiences.

As a brief note to anyone else: I know this post might generate some angry replies, so please realize that I'm only stating my own personal opinion, understanding, and experience for Pal because I think we have a similar way of looking at things.  It is perfectly acceptable to reject what I say here.  I don't have the weight of the whole Theravada tradition behind me either.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/4/15 12:35 PM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao,
personally I think the way Daniel describes the dukkha nanas is very accurate.
Sometimes when I'm practicing vipassana regularly and decide to write down the way I'm feeling during a day, I can compare to what he wrote and be able (most of the time) find in which nana I am in.

Also, even sutta arahants are still subject to old habits and reactions (including apparent bodily afflictive feelings) until they completely overcome them.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/4/15 3:01 PM as a reply to John P.
"Also, even sutta arahants are still subject to old habits and reactions (including apparent bodily afflictive feelings) until they completely overcome them."

interesting, could you please give a sutta example? I know I didn't, tell me if you want me to look it up again.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/4/15 3:48 PM as a reply to Pål.
Mainly the sutta pointed out in the second post in this thread.
There is a similar one here: Upasena Sutta, which I think is more explicit about this.

Both attribute the absence of afflictive feelings of a practicioner to the long time since they got rid of ignorance, instead of attributing it to arahantship.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 12:03 AM as a reply to John.
John:
Like fear, anger, envy, longing, sorrow, sadness?

and no Arahants replied.

so the next question to ask would be: can afflictive feelings be separated from affectionate feeling or are they inseparable? 

if they are inseparable and the afflictive/affectionate feelings are part and parcel of the affective suite of emotions that probably stem from the instinctual passions inherited from the animals, then to a humanity that presently believes Love can or will [one day] cure all ills, such a person (free of 'all' affective feelings) would not be welcomed (as a Master) hence the silence mayhap? or it's never been achieved - by an Arahant claimant that is.  

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 2:33 AM as a reply to John P.
John P:
Mainly the sutta pointed out in the second post in this thread.
There is a similar one here: Upasena Sutta, which I think is more explicit about this.

Both attribute the absence of afflictive feelings of a practicioner to the long time since they got rid of ignorance, instead of attributing it to arahantship.
So, long term arahants have few or no afflictive feelings? They just start to die away when arahantship is attained (to finally be eradicated at parinibbana)? I might have misunderstod the first sutta you posted. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 4:38 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
Paweł K:
He obviously has had a very dramatic life

I wonder how dramatic someone life had to be to desire no emotions at all. And wouldn't that desire came from some screwed up neurotic emotion itself?



Not Tao, don't whatever you do admit to having had dramatic emotions, or non neurotic humanity will accuse you of being screwed up for wanting to get rid of them LOL!

btw Pawel, Richard claims he had no idea (as no one before him had claimed AF) that the ending of 'who' he felt and thought he was (IOW everything he subjectively identified as) would bring an end to all emotions as that had not been his primary goal. instead he claims it was only upon the ending of all subjectivity (the entire psyche) that all emotional reactivity ended and the sense of Being was revealed to the apperceptive brain, to have been at root the Feeling Being (aka The Soul, highly cherished by humanity) generated by the instinctual passions which remain raw instinctual survival passions in animals without a thinking cortex owning and warping them into 'my' Feeling Being's emotions. but i guess it's been too much to ask to read the AF site.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 5:29 AM as a reply to Pål.
Pål:
So, long term arahants have few or no afflictive feelings? They just start to die away when arahantship is attained (to finally be eradicated at parinibbana)? I might have misunderstod the first sutta you posted. 
I don't understand what you mean by "They just start to die away when arahantship is attained".

My expectation would be that even if an arahant had an afflictive feeling, it would be experienced differently (without suffering), but that by gradually "purifying" the mind, the conditions necessary for afflictive feelings would not be there anymore.
I can be wrong and arahantship itself is the point after complete mental "purification", but it doesn't seem that way to me.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 6:11 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
I can only comment from my current state which I believe to be anagami / 3rd path. It's taken about 3y so far and I learned almost exclusively from MCTB with a bit of "The Power of Now" and recently Rob Burbea's book filling in key gaps, so thing of this as a testimonial to the replicability of Daniel's approach if you like.

My experience of emotions is radically altered in a way that reduces suffering. I used to experience long periods of depression and seldom felt truly happy or at ease -- my emotions were very much embedded in me and they created a deluded state of mind where my attention would be naturally drawn to noticing everythign that re-enforced my current emotional state. I did not understand how this process worked and there was not a great deal I could do to change it. It was hard for me to be playful, joyful or at ease and it caused problems in my professional and social life.

Contrast that to my current state about 3y later where emotional sensations are 'out there' along with everything else, but they do not last, they are just sensations and I can choose to be 'in' them or 'watch' them as I please. If somethhing difficult happens often I'll catch the thought before it generates the gross bodily emotional reaction, soemtimes I won't but neither situation is a problem. In other words, I have enough power to control how the objects in my mind are created, how much attention I give them while they exist and whether to keep them existing that they have little ability to cause mischief. I can generate enough joyful positive feelings from jhana factors that I have enough for myself and often some to spare to illuminate the lives of people I care about. I still move around the insight cycle somewhat, but it's effects on my attention and the sensations in my body are familiar to me and cause little bother. I also have a fair bit of leverage over where I am in the cycle and bit of attention during the day and about 30m/day of formal-ish practice is enough to keep things running smoothly.

It's not the end of emotions, but it sure is different.

Looking forward, I can see how the mental process in the subconcious that auto-generates objects based on incoming sensations is being trained by my current state in a way that is likely to lead to consistently skillful reactions, and I can see how that would lead to me maintaining a state of tranquility without concious effort.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 6:02 AM as a reply to John P.
I mean, according to the sutta, when ignorance is gone (=arahantship is attained) the afflictive emotions do not disappear all at once but start to fade away. I mean, something being uprooted doesn't mean it's completely gone yet, but it will start to rot away. The complete fading of those emotions might be parinibbana. I don't think an arahant would have to actively purify something since ignorance, the root of the defilements, is gone. Otherwise one wouldn't be an arahant according to the sutta based ten fetter model. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 7:26 AM as a reply to Pål.
Pål:  I mean, according to the sutta, when ignorance is gone (=arahantship is attained) the afflictive emotions do not disappear all at once but start to fade away. ...

Here's an interpretation:

"Afflictive emotions" is a modern term. I think it falls under sankhata -- fabricated mental elaborations triggered by basic feeling-tone (vedana) of momentary experience ("sensations"). Experiencing without delusion (=ignorance) would mean free of the delusion that there's any identity (self-importance) that needs to defend itself, or assert itself in response to received sensation experience.

The pain of a physical wound, or the pleasantness of nutritious food still, always arise as the innate vedana-capability of the organism. With pain (physiological warning), the mind notes whether something should be done to avoid (avoidable) physical injury. With good taste of food (physiologically satisfying) it is measured relative to the need to nourish, and to ritual propriaty. But the feeling-tone of sensations are immediately recognized, known just as such, rather than "interpreted", perceived in relation to a self-sense that drives the mind elaborating them into optional aversion or delight. These latter are, so to speak, "self-celebration" in response to what's essentially impersonal experience.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 7:04 AM as a reply to John P.
John P:
Pål:
So, long term arahants have few or no afflictive feelings? They just start to die away when arahantship is attained (to finally be eradicated at parinibbana)? I might have misunderstod the first sutta you posted. 
I don't understand what you mean by "They just start to die away when arahantship is attained".

My expectation would be that even if an arahant had an afflictive feeling, it would be experienced differently (without suffering), but that by gradually "purifying" the mind, the conditions necessary for afflictive feelings would not be there anymore.
I can be wrong and arahantship itself is the point after complete mental "purification", but it doesn't seem that way to me.

This is kind of a conjecture, but I think I found a good analogy for this: if you take a kid to the haunted house in a fair, he will be terrified by the fake skeletons, the screams, and what not, thinking they are real, a real threat. But if you tell the kid that all these monsters are fabricated, eventualy, after he confirms it for himself that everything there is fabricated, he will no longer be in horror in that house. He will feel safe there, knowing those things are no threat to him. But even then, he might be surprised sometimes, or feel a little rush. With time, though, the more he walks through the haunted house, the more peaceful and at ease he will be.

Samsara is the haunted house, the skeletons and screams are afflictive emotions, and realising all these things are fabricated is the direct knowledge that sets one free from suffering. But even after being freed through direct knowledge, it doesn't mean that this knowledge is fully integrated. The consequences of this direct knowledge have to spread through every aspect of life. Maybe our animal instincts of hate and greed still arise, but cause no suffering because there is no ignorance that allows clinging to these habits of an entire lifetime. As the knowledge is being integrated, these instincts themselves get weaker and weaker.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 4:36 PM as a reply to Blue Jay.
Blue Jay, what you describe here sounds like the traditional second path of Buddhism.  Craving and aversion are weakened by practicing and applying the wisdom learned in stream entry - that clinging leads to stress.  When sati is mastered along with discernment (meaning you are always aware of your feelings towards things and you always rememeber to apply the wisdom of equanimity towards them) third path is attained.  From there, developing dispassion towards the tools you used, namely jhana and the other wholesome states of mind, leads to arahantship, which is freedom from rebirth even in higher realms of heaven.

From my reading of the suttas and the way the ancient Indians looked at karma and rebirth, they would not have been satisfied unless the aflictive emotions were all uprooted without a trace of them left.  There are many passages where the Buddha is descibed as smiling serenely while being yelled at and told he was wrong.  The Buddha also said to watch for any ill-will, even if robbers were beating you in the woods or wild animals were ripping the flesh from your bones.  The way he says to practice the sila part of the 8-fold path is "by seeing danger in the slightest fault" seeking perfection at all times.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/5/15 9:31 PM as a reply to John P.
re: John P (3/5/15 3:29 AM as a reply to Pål.)

My expectation would be that even if an arahant had an afflictive feeling, it would be experienced differently (without suffering), but that by gradually "purifying" the mind, the conditions necessary for afflictive feelings would not be there anymore.
I can be wrong and
arahantship itself is the point after complete mental "purification", but it doesn't seem that way to me.

That is, I think, how the Visudhimagga presents it, which isn't to say that it might appear otherwise in your experience.

re: Pål (3/5/15 4:02 AM as a reply to John P.)
"I mean, according to the sutta, when ignorance is gone (=arahantship is attained) the afflictive emotions do not disappear all at once but start to fade away. I mean, something being uprooted doesn't mean it's completely gone yet, but it will start to rot away."

That is a plausible interpretation of "uprooted". Other metaphors, e.g. "extinguished," "released" are more binary (unless one wants to argue, e.g., that an extinguished candle wick might still smoke a bit).

"The complete fading of those emotions might be parinibbana."

Certainly then vedana / feeling-tone responses to sensations cease with bodily functions, where those responses are the root of 'emotions'.
 
"I don't think an arahant would have to actively purify something since ignorance, the root of the defilements, is gone. Otherwise one wouldn't be an arahant according to the sutta based ten fetter model. 

And by 'non-returner' stage, in 10-fetter model, attraction and aversion as roots of most "afflictive emotions" are already gone

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 1:14 AM as a reply to John.
from The Surangama Sutra
Falseness of the first aggregate of form (råpa)
‘Your body owes its existence first to your parents’ thought of giving birth but had you not thought (of being born), there would have been no chance for your incarnation in their thought. As I said earlier, when you think of vinegar, your mouth waters and when you think of scaling a high cliff, you feel distress in the soles of your feet. But there is neither vinegar nor cliff and if your body is not of the same (illusory) nature as falsehood, how can water come to your mouth when you think of vinegar? Therefore, you should know that your physical body (råpakàya) is the first state of congealation of your false thinking.

Falseness of the second aggregate of receptiveness (vedanà)
‘We have spoken of the thought of scaling a cliff which can cause your body to feel distress. This is the aggregate of receptiveness affecting your physical body which is thus moved by favourable or adverse feelings. This is the second state of empty reflection of your false thinking.
Falseness of the third aggregate of conception (sa¤j¤a) ‘Your thought can make your body move but if both are not akin how can body obey thought’s order to act? Therefore, when mind stirs, body obeys and both act in perfect unison. When you are awake, your thinking mind works but when you sleep, dreams take the place of thoughts. Therefore, you should know that your thoughts stir your false feelings.This is the third state of pervasiveness of your false thinking.

Falseness of the fourth aggregate of discrimination (saüskàra)
Transformation never stops and changes imperceptibly every instant, as shown by the growth of hair and nails, and the loss of vitality in old age as revealed by the wrinkles on one’s face. This change occurs day and night, but we do not notice it. ânanda, if this is not you, why does your body change? (On the other hand) if it is you, why do you not notice the change? Therefore, you should know that every discrimination does not stop in a flash of thought. This is the fourth state of concealment of your false thinking.

Falseness of the fifth aggregate of consciousness (vij¤àna)
‘If your pure, bright, profound and subtle (consciousness) is permanent, why (is it conditioned by and) does not go beyond your body’s seeing, hearing, feeling and knowing? If it is the real, it should not allow itself to be affected by your false habits. Very long ago you saw unusual things but you then forgot all about them. Why do you remember them so vividly when you now see them again? This shows that the contamination of your clear and still consciousness continues, instant after instant, in unbroken continuity; how can you ascertain this? ânanda, you should know that this still (Consciousness) is not Reality and is like a river which flows swiftly but seems to be still; if you do not see it flow, this does not mean that it stops. If consciousness is not the source of false thinking, how can it be influenced by wrong habits? If you fail to (wipe out separateness and) achieve the uniform functioning of all your six sense organs, your false thinking cannot be brought to an end. Therefore, behind your seeing, hearing, feeling and knowing, there is chain of subtle worldly habits and within your still consciousness there is something which seems not to but does exist and which is the fifth subtle state of your false thinking.

‘ânanda, all the five aggregates are created by this fivefold false thinking. As to their boundaries about which you wish to know, form and voidness are the boundaries of the aggregate of råpa; receptiveness and non-receptiveness of vedanà; remembrance and forgetfulness of sanjnà; rise and fall of saüskàra; and the return of consciousness to, and its union with, its substance are those of vij¤àna.

‘The five aggregates arise by piling themselves upon one another. They originate from consciousness (mind) and should be eliminated beginning with form (matter). In principle, they all vanish the moment one is instantaneously awakened, but in practice, they are wiped out gradually due to the force of habit. I have shown you how to untie the six knots in a cloth and all this should have been clear to you; why do
you still ask me (about it)?

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 1:27 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
to me it looks like not only emotions but also body.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 3:29 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
re: John P (3/5/15 3:29 AM as a reply to Pål.)

My expectation would be that even if an arahant had an afflictive feeling, it would be experienced differently (without suffering), but that by gradually "purifying" the mind, the conditions necessary for afflictive feelings would not be there anymore.
I can be wrong and
arahantship itself is the point after complete mental "purification", but it doesn't seem that way to me.

That is, I think, how the Visudhimagga presents it, which isn't to say that it might appear otherwise in your experience.

re: Pål (3/5/15 4:02 AM as a reply to John P.)
"I mean, according to the sutta, when ignorance is gone (=arahantship is attained) the afflictive emotions do not disappear all at once but start to fade away. I mean, something being uprooted doesn't mean it's completely gone yet, but it will start to rot away."

That is a plausible interpretation of "uprooted". Other metaphors, e.g. "extinguished," "released" are more binary (unless one wants to argue, e.g., that an extinguished candle wick might still smoke a bit).

"The complete fading of those emotions might be parinibbana."

Certainly then vedana / feeling-tone responses to sensations cease with bodily functions, where those responses are the root of 'emotions'.
 
"I don't think an arahant would have to actively purify something since ignorance, the root of the defilements, is gone. Otherwise one wouldn't be an arahant according to the sutta based ten fetter model. 

And by 'non-returner' stage, in 10-fetter model, attraction and aversion as roots of most "afflictive emotions" are already gone

Makes sense. So you don't believe the MCTB paths are the same as the four paths the Buddha taught either?

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 7:26 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
[quote=

"I don't think an arahant would have to actively purify something since ignorance, the root of the defilements, is gone. Otherwise one wouldn't be an arahant according to the sutta based ten fetter model. 

And by 'non-returner' stage, in 10-fetter model, attraction and aversion as roots of most "afflictive emotions" are already gone




this is where AF differs majorly from eastern teachings.
 
Mental ignorance (wrong thinking) is not considered the root of defilements by practitioners of actualism, the subjective sense of being a Feeling Being (aka a spiritual metta loving soul) is. and that subjective sense of being a Being is what creates the illusion of an inner and outer world.

The 'who you feel you are' is considered to have morphed/fabricated itself out of the ancient instinctual passions inherited from the animals. Whereas the ego, the intellectual identity (who you 'think' you are) is considered to have developed 'after' the Feeling Being, as evidenced by the importance ancient races place on feelings and their belief in disembodied immortal souls temporarily inhabiting the body.

Both 'who' you feel you are and 'who' you think you are, are ruled/driven by the ancient instinctual survival passions. therefore humans are obsessed with not only who they think and feel they are, but what others think and feel about them, and what they feel and think about others. 

The reason why the ending of the illusion of the mentally fabricated intellectual thinking ego (who you think you are) does not end ignorance and defilements is because the instinctual passions that form the inner Feeling Being (aka the spiritual Self) remains favored and continues to rule every constructive thought arising from the new, barely developed neurons. thus human intelligence no matter how enlightened it thinks it is, remains enslaved (controlled) by ancient robotic instinctual passions surfacing as afflictive and affectionate emotional-thinking. like Pawel's emoticon

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 9:53 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
But if the "feeling self" comes from our instincts then how could it be erased in a living being? Maybe that's why it's called parinibbana.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 10:14 AM as a reply to Pål.
My understanding of Daniel's position is that people who try to claim an end to afflictive emotions as the goal end up with their shadow sides expressing themselves; hence many of the disheartening stories we hear of highly realized teachers sexually abusing their students and/or getting on a destructive power trip. In the first edition of MCTB he is quite clear in rejecting the four-path Theravadan model. Not sure how he'll expand on that discussion in the second edition.

An example of someone who claims freedom from thoughts is Gary Weber, whose website might be worth a look.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 3:24 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Alin Mathews:
[quote=

"I don't think an arahant would have to actively purify something since ignorance, the root of the defilements, is gone. Otherwise one wouldn't be an arahant according to the sutta based ten fetter model. 

And by 'non-returner' stage, in 10-fetter model, attraction and aversion as roots of most "afflictive emotions" are already gone




this is where AF differs majorly from eastern teachings.
 
Mental ignorance (wrong thinking) is not considered the root of defilements by practitioners of actualism, the subjective sense of being a Feeling Being (aka a spiritual metta loving soul) is. and that subjective sense of being a Being is what creates the illusion of an inner and outer world.

The 'who you feel you are' is considered to have morphed/fabricated itself out of the ancient instinctual passions inherited from the animals. Whereas the ego, the intellectual identity (who you 'think' you are) is considered to have developed 'after' the Feeling Being, as evidenced by the importance ancient races place on feelings and their belief in disembodied immortal souls temporarily inhabiting the body.

Both 'who' you feel you are and 'who' you think you are, are ruled/driven by the ancient instinctual survival passions. therefore humans are obsessed with not only who they think and feel they are, but what others think and feel about them, and what they feel and think about others. 

The reason why the ending of the illusion of the mentally fabricated intellectual thinking ego (who you think you are) does not end ignorance and defilements is because the instinctual passions that form the inner Feeling Being (aka the spiritual Self) remains favored and continues to rule every constructive thought arising from the new, barely developed neurons. thus human intelligence no matter how enlightened it thinks it is, remains enslaved (controlled) by ancient robotic instinctual passions surfacing as afflictive and affectionate emotional-thinking. like Pawel's emoticon

Alin, This argument keeps coming up about the Spiritual Self and AF versus Eastern Religions, as it is clearly stated on the AF website, but not many here believe in that stuff. Though I can really only speak for myself.  And what  you are preaching against is not what is found in Buddhism either Pragmatic or Traditional.  Buddhist Practices , in my experience have brought about changes in the freeing up of the mind from the Emotional and  Habitual Instinctual Reactions.  In fact alot of what Richard states at AF website rings true, just not all.  Some seems a little off base from the process that is unfolding in my circumstance, and some seems eerily familiar, just different adjectives.  PCE description describes what I call Bare Attention or Mindfulness, for instance.  Just the Pure Awareness, sans the thinker/ ego.  Richard's a Precis of Actual Freedom describes what I generally call Bare Attention.

I don't really want to get into any arguments or debates, I am just glad for anyone to be practicing a productive path in training of the mind and body. Because it works, by whatever Methods or Paths, and what works is good, and what works is Pragmatic.

Psi

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 4:21 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Alin, you always do a good job explaining AF concepts, I think.

Pal, the idea behind AF is that by neither expressing nor repressing the instictual passions, they have nowhere to go and just fizzle out. In my own experience, this seems to be true. When feelings come up, and you don't feed into them or try to make them go away, they just kind of lose all importance and are forgotten quickly. I can't verify if it leads to a lasting attainment, though.

@Psi: Yeah, that particular part isn't very important or meaningful (at least to me). It's a bit of a shame that it's such a big part of Richard's writings because everything else is such a good pointer - especially for more modern, non-spiritual people. It is important to let go of things like compassion/love/happiness for the PCE, though, and this is something a lot of (probably most) Buddhists wouldn't like, I think. Maybe AF is more useful being a bit combative that way because it'll get people to think about those things a bit more.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 4:35 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi:
Alin Mathews:
[quote=

"I don't think an arahant would have to actively purify something since ignorance, the root of the defilements, is gone. Otherwise one wouldn't be an arahant according to the sutta based ten fetter model. 

And by 'non-returner' stage, in 10-fetter model, attraction and aversion as roots of most "afflictive emotions" are already gone




this is where AF differs majorly from eastern teachings.
 
Mental ignorance (wrong thinking) is not considered the root of defilements by practitioners of actualism, the subjective sense of being a Feeling Being (aka a spiritual metta loving soul) is. and that subjective sense of being a Being is what creates the illusion of an inner and outer world.

The 'who you feel you are' is considered to have morphed/fabricated itself out of the ancient instinctual passions inherited from the animals. Whereas the ego, the intellectual identity (who you 'think' you are) is considered to have developed 'after' the Feeling Being, as evidenced by the importance ancient races place on feelings and their belief in disembodied immortal souls temporarily inhabiting the body.

Both 'who' you feel you are and 'who' you think you are, are ruled/driven by the ancient instinctual survival passions. therefore humans are obsessed with not only who they think and feel they are, but what others think and feel about them, and what they feel and think about others. 

The reason why the ending of the illusion of the mentally fabricated intellectual thinking ego (who you think you are) does not end ignorance and defilements is because the instinctual passions that form the inner Feeling Being (aka the spiritual Self) remains favored and continues to rule every constructive thought arising from the new, barely developed neurons. thus human intelligence no matter how enlightened it thinks it is, remains enslaved (controlled) by ancient robotic instinctual passions surfacing as afflictive and affectionate emotional-thinking. like Pawel's emoticon

Alin, This argument keeps coming up about the Spiritual Self and AF versus Eastern Religions, as it is clearly stated on the AF website, but not many here believe in that stuff. Though I can really only speak for myself.  And what  you are preaching against is not what is found in Buddhism either Pragmatic or Traditional.  Buddhist Practices , in my experience have brought about changes in the freeing up of the mind from the Emotional and  Habitual Instinctual Reactions.  In fact alot of what Richard states at AF website rings true, just not all.  Some seems a little off base from the process that is unfolding in my circumstance, and some seems eerily familiar, just different adjectives.  PCE description describes what I call Bare Attention or Mindfulness, for instance.  Just the Pure Awareness, sans the thinker/ ego.  Richard's a Precis of Actual Freedom describes what I generally call Bare Attention.

I don't really want to get into any arguments or debates, I am just glad for anyone to be practicing a productive path in training of the mind and body. Because it works, by whatever Methods or Paths, and what works is good, and what works is Pragmatic.

Psi

Sorry but i don't understand the reason for this reply at all as there is nothing even remotely argumentative in my simple and unoffensive explanations.      

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 6:53 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
My understanding of Daniel's position is that people who try to claim an end to afflictive emotions as the goal end up with their shadow sides expressing themselves; hence many of the disheartening stories we hear of highly realized teachers sexually abusing their students and/or getting on a destructive power trip. In the first edition of MCTB he is quite clear in rejecting the four-path Theravadan model. Not sure how he'll expand on that discussion in the second edition.

An example of someone who claims freedom from thoughts is Gary Weber, whose website might be worth a look.

yes prime examples of why "freedom from thoughts" and dissociation from feelings hasn't been enough. It is 'Being' itself and approaching it with an unoffensive method, is what practitioners of actualism are preparing for. as the survival instincts forming that sense of Being [a feeling being] make it extemely defensive and illusive. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 5:04 PM as a reply to Not Tao.
Not Tao:
Alin, you always do a good job explaining AF concepts, I think.
Thanks Not Tao,

and please, by all means, correct me when i'm wrong. those pesky predilections still blind me emoticon    

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 5:57 PM as a reply to Pål.
Pål:
But if the "feeling self" comes from our instincts then how could it be erased in a living being? Maybe that's why it's called parinibbana.

Very good question Pal.  and my money is on it having something to do with the developing brain. what has developed in the human brain that hasn't developed in the instinctively passionate animals? conscious self-reflective neurons right? we now have a brain that can see itself think and feel, just as the eyes can see the body's own fingers ... and make tools with them. 

that this new self-reflective ability was promptly mistaken for 'a witness' in the head has been a major glitch for the growth of benign intelligence on this planet. left unexamined that sense of witness blew out into that much cherished instinctively territorial 'Being' itself, wrecking emotional havoc on the body's nervous system. whilst this illusory usurper of the body and it's detrimental reactivity remains invisible, the neuroplastic brain cannot delete it and mutate into a selfless benevolent intelligence.  

naturally to the sense of being, the death of Being itself is a horrific prospect. just facing it is not for the weak of knee. it's been kicking and screaming - or trying to be good; religiously or meditate - for thousands of years. anything but face it's illusory nature which brings it and all it's instinctual reactions, to an end. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 5:48 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
re: Pål (3/6/15 3:29 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"So you don't believe the MCTB paths are the same as the four paths the Buddha taught either?"

As far as I can tell, the MCTB model is a "pragmatic" interpretation of the traditional Theravadan commentarial (Visudhimagga) take of the Buddha's intent, via a 20th century Burmese commentarial tradition (Mahasi etal). That is to say, my sense is that it's solidly rooted in that lineage of Buddhist tradition. 

I can't, as yet, judge it either way experientially.

There is a suspicion, however, that '4th Path' or Arahant attainment is being interpreted differently in modernist versions, which I believe hinges issues such (usually monastic) renunciation, and the rather thorny notion of 'conceit'. This manifests in the modernist skepticism as  of "perfectionist" interpretations.

re: Alin Mathews (3/6/15 7:26 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"The reason why the ending of the illusion of the mentally fabricated intellectual thinking ego … does not end ignorance and defilements is because the instinctual passions that form the inner Feeling Being (aka the spiritual Self) remains favored and continues to rule every constructive thought arising from the new, barely developed neurons. thus human intelligence no matter how enlightened it thinks it is, remains enslaved (controlled) by ancient robotic instinctual passions surfacing as afflictive and affectionate emotional-thinking."

This is a view that appears to deny substantive "release" from an enslaved condition. Neuroscientist Antonio Damasio surveys the evolutionary nature of human consciousness and behavior in terms of the younger patterns of "developing instincts", so to speak, more towards deliberative reasoning and cooperative values. ALL the science, as he intimately knows, is as yet rudimentary on this front, and he is reluctant to claim any inherent limitation to human development. So is human nature destined to "remain enslaved"? It's a play of viewpoints.

re: Laurel Carrington (3/6/15 10:14 AM as a reply to Pål. )

"My understanding of Daniel's position is that people who try to claim an end to afflictive emotions as the goal end up with their shadow sides expressing themselves; hence many of the disheartening stories we hear of highly realized teachers sexually abusing their students and/or getting on a destructive power trip."

Daniel's position here is obviously, pragmatically, justified, given such cases. Again, "highly realized" points to a range of degrees and/or types of attainment.

"In the first edition of MCTB he is quite clear in rejecting the four-path Theravadan model. Not sure how he'll expand on that discussion in the second edition."


"Rejecting" s/t involves a rhetorical stance, for instance, making clear that he doesn't buy into a model totally, as in, at an extreme, a blind faith. And MTCB1 is quite remarkable for its rhetoric, which is to say persuasiveness and ability to attract attention. "Daniel's position" is a work-in-progress, as with anyone's views/teachings, until they're dead, when it's all then more definitively defined.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 6:33 PM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:

So is human nature destined to "remain enslaved"? It's a play of viewpoints.



No, i don't think so, as per my last post. but we were probably writing at the same time emoticon

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 8:42 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
While I appreciate the perspective that happiness relates to an absence of feelings it does not line up with what neuroscientists have actually discovered. The human being with the highest recorded level of "happiness" or activity in the briain region where contentment is displayed, is Matthiu Ricard, a Buddhist monk, and his main practice advocated is the Brahma Viharas. As for the right hand side of the brain, which is where "negative" thoughts and emotions come into play, his is also the lowest on record. Not in one study...ever. As in ever recorded. There is no one ever recorded who has scored so high in contentment and so low in "negative" emotions. The idea that you can't have deep happiness without the the deep negative emotions, or the "instinctual passions" rearing their heads, is only that...an idea. And it's actually untrue. It's not my opinion, the Buddha's, or Richard's. It's empirically been tested, and you can read about it if you care to.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 9:44 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
While I appreciate the perspective that happiness relates to an absence of feelings it does not line up with what neuroscientists have actually discovered. The human being with the highest recorded level of "happiness" or activity in the briain region where contentment is displayed, is Matthiu Ricard, a Buddhist monk, and his main practice advocated is the Brahma Viharas. As for the right hand side of the brain, which is where "negative" thoughts and emotions come into play, his is also the lowest on record. Not in one study...ever. As in ever recorded. There is no one ever recorded who has scored so high in contentment and so low in "negative" emotions. The idea that you can't have deep happiness without the the deep negative emotions, or the "instinctual passions" rearing their heads, is only that...an idea. And it's actually untrue. It's not my opinion, the Buddha's, or Richard's. It's empirically been tested, and you can read about it if you care to.

I have never said Actual Freedom is a state of happiness affective or non affective. so i don't understand the reason for your example here. perhaps you are confusing Richard's claim with the actualism 'method' for-feeling-beings also practiced by buddhists as both involve a focus on happiness and harmlessness. but whereas the Buddhist practice leads to the formless realms of 'Being', actualism leads 180° in the opposite direction.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/6/15 10:37 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Alin:
What is your experience with practicing buddhism, and does all Buddhist practice in your opinion lead to identical results such that it can be grouped into one thing? At the end of the day, I see the value in your perspective, but I maintain that it is only a perspective. There have been periods of time for me where the internal world vanished, subjective emotions seemed non-sensical, as did taking a thought personally. It wasn't a contemplation. It simply didn't register. I have had extended periods of this, they have all faded, but that perspective is easily available. To claim it as ultimate truth, or THE perspective, felt a lot like clinging in an unhealthy way, having spent a couple of years doing exactly that. This may not be your experience, so I am not accusing you of doing such, but it has been a common misstep that has led to all sorts of denial and exagerrated claims by others proselytizing for AF.
You may not have stated that Acual Freedom is about happiness, but a simple google search to the webpage created by the progenitor of Actual Freedom reveals the following result "Actual freedom is a tried and tested way of being happy and harmless".
But I don't have another AF back and forth in me. Having been around those influenced by it, read through years of back log on the AF Yahoo forum and here, there really seems to me be nothing there. I simply do not care enough anymore, and I'm not sure why I ever did. Any emotions I had around it dissipated the more I read up on it on the AF Yahoo forum. Anyways, I should go, I'm wasting hot water.



RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 2:08 AM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
Alin:
What is your experience with practicing buddhism, and does all Buddhist practice in your opinion lead to identical results such that it can be grouped into one thing? At the end of the day, I see the value in your perspective, but I maintain that it is only a perspective. There have been periods of time for me where the internal world vanished, subjective emotions seemed non-sensical, as did taking a thought personally. It wasn't a contemplation. It simply didn't register. I have had extended periods of this, they have all faded, but that perspective is easily available. To claim it as ultimate truth, or THE perspective, felt a lot like clinging in an unhealthy way, having spent a couple of years doing exactly that. This may not be your experience, so I am not accusing you of doing such, but it has been a common misstep that has led to all sorts of denial and exagerrated claims by others proselytizing for AF.
You may not have stated that Acual Freedom is about happiness, but a simple google search to the webpage created by the progenitor of Actual Freedom reveals the following result "Actual freedom is a tried and tested way of being happy and harmless".
But I don't have another AF back and forth in me. Having been around those influenced by it, read through years of back log on the AF Yahoo forum and here, there really seems to me be nothing there. I simply do not care enough anymore, and I'm not sure why I ever did. Any emotions I had around it dissipated the more I read up on it on the AF Yahoo forum. Anyways, I should go, I'm wasting hot water.



My experience with practicing buddhism goes way back Bill, beginning with TM (transcendental meditation) and then Vipassana in the days when Goenka himself presided over the 10 day courses. I also read extensively, more than i care to list here and still keep the three volumes of The Discourses of the Buddha in my extensive library. but likewise (except in my case it was regarding buddhism and all religions) i came to the realisation that "To claim it as ultimate truth, or THE perspective, felt a lot like clinging in an unhealthy way, having spent a couple of decades doing exactly that".  i then began to discover that not everything is a perspective ... other than that limited by our biology.  and that the facts (experiential sense data) as best we can be aware of, did not require a psychological point of view at all.

Thanks for the replies but i too must be moving along, i have a busy few hours ahead.    

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 8:47 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
"Pal, the idea behind AF is that by neither expressing nor repressing the instictual passions, they have nowhere to go and just fizzle out. In my own experience, this seems to be true. When feelings come up, and you don't feed into them or try to make them go away, they just kind of lose all importance and are forgotten quickly. I can't verify if it leads to a lasting attainment, though."

That is one of the vitakkasanthana methods taught by the Buddha too. However, ithe buddha dhamma is flexible, and if that method doesn't work for one individual there are a few orher kinds of right effort one can employ, one  of which is whole-heartedly repressing the defilement. This should only be tried if nothing else works though. I wonder why this last method is recommended, it seems kind of counter-intuitive to me. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 8:52 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
My understanding of Daniel's position is that people who try to claim an end to afflictive emotions as the goal end up with their shadow sides expressing themselves; hence many of the disheartening stories we hear of highly realized teachers sexually abusing their students and/or getting on a destructive power trip. In the first edition of MCTB he is quite clear in rejecting the four-path Theravadan model. Not sure how he'll expand on that discussion in the second edition.

An example of someone who claims freedom from thoughts is Gary Weber, whose website might be worth a look.


To me it just seems like Daniel is just overlooking/reforming the four noble truths... Cool site!

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 9:11 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
My experience with practicing buddhism goes way back Bill, beginning with TM (transcendental meditation) and then Vipassana in the days when Goenka himself presided over the 10 day courses. -Alin

This may be responsible for much of the misunderstanding and blowback you get from others telling you you are miscategorizing them. TM is absolutely not a Buddhist practice, neither in teachings, techniques, or etiology. This also is not opinion, but fact. It was started by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and he remained the teacher and head of TM until his death in 2008. That someone well versed in Buddhism is not able to discern even from that name itself that it is a Hindu tradition, and not Buddhism, surprises me. The techniques in TM have their origins in Hindusim, as does the philosophy.
Further, Buddhism arose as much in reaction and opposition to Hinduism as it did an innovation. One of those main oppositions was the position of a supreme, yet subjective ground, known as Atman or Being. The buddhist teaching of anatta, signifying know supreme backdrop, dual or non-dual, has its origins in response to this Hindu belief. AF frequently confounds the two and treats them as the same. They are not, in experience, realization, or expression, though in fairness you will find some Buddhist practitioners who speak in a way that is reminiscient of this Hindu way of seeing, just as all religions become cross pollinated at times by those familiar with other traditions. It is not an understanding that has ever been promoted or popular here./




RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 9:31 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Ok so it's more like an extremely common and problematic misconceotion rather than an instict in it self?

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 9:41 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
The fourth noble truth is that the noble eightfold path leads to the end of desire and therefore to the end of suffering, right? It seems to me that Daniel denies this when he says his definition of arahants have attraction and aversion left. 

Maybe it's the case that arahants have uprooted these feelings but they stay around even after that and grow weaker with time to finally die away at parinibbana. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 2:32 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
My experience with practicing buddhism goes way back Bill, beginning with TM (transcendental meditation) and then Vipassana in the days when Goenka himself presided over the 10 day courses. -Alin

This may be responsible for much of the misunderstanding and blowback you get from others telling you you are miscategorizing them. TM is absolutely not a Buddhist practice, neither in teachings, techniques, or etiology. This also is not opinion, but fact. It was started by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and he remained the teacher and head of TM until his death in 2008. That someone well versed in Buddhism is not able to discern even from that name itself that it is a Hindu tradition, and not Buddhism, surprises me. The techniques in TM have their origins in Hindusim, as does the philosophy.

My bad Bill, I meant to say my practice of meditation was TM and Vipassana, i didnt take on their belief systems but thanks for the info, even tho it means absolutely nothing to me nowadays.        


Further, Buddhism arose as much in reaction and opposition to Hinduism as it did an innovation. One of those main oppositions was the position of a supreme, yet subjective ground, known as Atman or Being. The buddhist teaching of anatta, signifying know supreme backdrop, dual or non-dual, has its origins in response to this Hindu belief. AF frequently confounds the two and treats them as the same. They are not, in experience, realization, or expression, though in fairness you will find some Buddhist practitioners who speak in a way that is reminiscient of this Hindu way of seeing, just as all religions become cross pollinated at times by those familiar with other traditions. It is not an understanding that has ever been promoted or popular here./




Thanks again, but buddhism is not my thang, sense data is ... and observing how belief systems inhibit the growth of sensate intelligence.      

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 3:21 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Yes, I understand that Buddhism is not your thing. That has absolutely nothing to do with my posts. I am calling into question your knowledge in an area that you repeatedly and frequently criticize and suggesting that your lack of knowledge and experience regarding the practices and diversity that you conveniently miscategorize as "Buddhist" so as to bolster your argument (or Richard's) reflect your misunderstanding rather than the actual understanding of many who might group themselves under that term.
And we will still be friends. It's fine. I would not actually call myself a Buddhist if Buddhist means aligned closely with Theravdan views about life, and transformation, this being only one of several and varied strands. I am not trying to convince you to be Buddhist.
If you are putting out pejorative information that casts anyone falling under the umbrella of meditator in a negative light, and you are doing so through factual and easily reconcilable untruths, then I will correct you. It is irresponsible to criticize broadly a system you demonstrate a consistent misunderstanding of as though you were somehow teaching those bound in some way to that system.

Edit: As I reread your posts I find very little I actually disagree with regarding the destruction of the witness or sense of Being. Whether or not you know this, these are Buddhist ideals. The sense of Being or the witness standing apart from phenomena is to be seen through in Buddhism, and it is taught in Buddhism. It is the miscategorization which I find troubling and know to be incorrect having practiced, studied, and meditated under different lineages, some of whom speak more agressively about this than others, but none of whom promoted the idea of eternal Witness, or Being, which is a Hindu idea. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 3:43 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
My experience with practicing buddhism goes way back Bill, beginning with TM (transcendental meditation) and then Vipassana in the days when Goenka himself presided over the 10 day courses. -Alin

This may be responsible for much of the misunderstanding and blowback you get from others telling you you are miscategorizing them. 
I don't recall anyone telling me i was miscategorizing 'them personally'. if someone chooses to identify with a belief i'm doubting thats their perogative. blowbacks are feedback, they show us the limits of the intelligence we're relating to so we can adjust accordingly (without dumbing down). 

i'm a rational optimist Bill. i reckon we'll work out whats actually happening when we're ready ... and it will bring humanity's dream-time to end.
          great for movies though emoticon . even now script and comedy writers are starting to use our unsubstantiated beliefs to show up how we've lost the plot.  

we are all contributing to awakening. the sooner we can participate without taking offense, the better.   

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 4:32 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:

Edit: As I reread your posts I find very little I actually disagree with regarding the destruction of the witness or sense of Being. Whether or not you know this, these are Buddhist ideals. The sense of Being or the witness standing apart from phenomena is to be seen through in Buddhism, and it is taught in Buddhism. It is the miscategorization which I find troubling and know to be incorrect having practiced, studied, and meditated under different lineages, some of whom speak more agressively about this than others, but none of whom promoted the idea of eternal Witness, or Being, which is a Hindu idea. 

No worries. next time i come across the many Buddhist ideals that enhance the sense of Being i shall add them to a list and when it's long enough i'll post it in. can't have my fellow human beings getting all "troubled" without the facts emoticon

      

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 3:44 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
we are all contributing to awakening. the sooner we can participate without taking offense, the better.   

Indeed, and if in the process we are actually writing about what is authentic and can be verified as such, rather than assumptions we've inherited from others, we will be better able to facilitate that process, whatever form it may take.

I don't know that offense is the right word. I don't believe I ever used, thought or intended that. If you tell me, "Christmas falls in November" and I know from having read about or participated in Christmas that you are wrong, and I tell you that, does that mean I am somehow offended, or that others may be? I don't think so. I attempt to correct misinformation. Sometimes I spew my own. I am glad when it is corrected. Sometimes I am very wrong. It's a load off. Room for growth.
In this interaction I am consistently and definitely correct.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 3:49 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
No worries. next time i come across the many Buddhist ideals that enhance the sense of Being i shall add them to a list and when it's long enough i'll post it in. can't have a fellow human being getting all "troubled" without facts emoticon      

I am actually interested. If there is one that is canonical, I want to know. If there is "many", please share a couple from memory. If I am wrong I will say so. As I said before Buddhism has come to mean many things to many people but I disagree that the view you have shared is a predominant one. 

Your passive agressive quips, fueled by your own subjective feelings that you are railing against, would be more useful if they were based on something real: As it stands you seem to be arguing that having correct information, or correctly portraying the thoughts or ideas of others is somehow not valuable in discussion. 

Please, engage me in a real discussion. I want to learn more and grow, and integrate new knowledge. I can't do that with a straw man. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 4:28 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
we are all contributing to awakening. the sooner we can participate without taking offense, the better.   

Indeed, and if in the process we are actually writing about what is authentic and can be verified as such, rather than assumptions we've inherited from others, we will be better able to facilitate that process, whatever form it may take.

I don't know that offense is the right word. I don't believe I ever used, thought or intended that. If you tell me, "Christmas falls in November" and I know from having read about or participated in Christmas that you are wrong, and I tell you that, does that mean I am somehow offended, or that others may be? I don't think so. I attempt to correct misinformation. Sometimes I spew my own. I am glad when it is corrected. Sometimes I am very wrong. It's a load off. Room for growth.
In this interaction I am consistently and definitely correct.

don't fret so much Bill. knowledge [preferably experiential] needn't be about you being correct or not. re-read the above. you're raving, about *you*. just share the non negotiable facts as you find them or work with others to uncover them. they arent your personal possessions. step out of the picture and you'll uncover more facts and have more fruitful discussions. 

but alas my writing time for the day is up.  have a good one.   

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 9:09 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Bill F.:
That last sentence in my response was definitely not intended to be taken as serious.
I can't help but acknowledge that you have yet to provide me with one example where Buddhism propagates the views you accuse it of. Not a single one. You claim there are many examples. You have time to write me moderately sized responses about my posts and suggest vague advice, but when I ask you to actually back up your assertion with one example, you give me nothing, despite claimining you know of "many". 

patience, Bill, the list is huge, it will take years emoticon 

so until i feel inclined to help you see what's always been in front of your eyes

at least attempt to have a great life, with less instinctively afflictive feelings 

btw that metta practice of yours? complete and utter failure. back to the drawing board for you. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/7/15 9:18 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
btw that metta practice of yours? complete and utter failure. back to the drawing board for you.

I demand that you take this statement back immediately. Take it back. And issue a public apology for criticizing metta practice and me. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 12:11 AM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
btw that metta practice of yours? complete and utter failure. back to the drawing board for you.

I demand that you take this statement back immediately. Take it back. And issue a public apology for criticizing metta practice and me. 

as far as i'm concerned one's practice is not dissociated from one's character

so if you can't handle critizicism about your metta practice, to wit;

And you, dirt besotted, waving an actualist flag* and combing the cum from the magnificent gray beard of your Richard figurine, have walked home bewildered, covered in the stink of your lost wagers. - Bill F. 

then youre just wasting my time.  In fact if it werent for your constant eagerness to engage me (about things you can easily find out for yourself) you would never hear from me, as there has never been anything youve posted that remotely interested me. and i don't find your instinctual aggression condusive to intelligent discussion.   

btw that metta practice of yours (above) doesn't adhere the principles and attitudes of the DhO.

so i'll ask the moderators to intervene

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 12:10 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Guys, settle down please.

Bill. Do you think your approach helps?  This conversation has been done a number of times here and some have fun trying to win their arguments. So I'd let it go and get on with your life and please don't insult next time. It doesn't help. 

Alin, you seem to like actual freedom path and arguing for it. Are you actually free yet? If not may I suggest rather than pushing people's buttons and speaking from the state of a 'feeling being' (if you aren't actually free yet)  That you go get actually free and come back and talk from there rather than the stnky "feeling being" seemingly speaking from a "my view is better than your view" calenture. You will probably get more interested parties involved that way, as trying to do the whole "buddhistic practices suck balls" angle has been done to death by many past "feeling beings" (not actually free) here at the Dho. 

Sincerely,
nick (not in mod mode)

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 12:20 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Alin: Relax, man. I was just kidding. You can poke fun at my ideas and practice all you want, I have no need or desire to defend them. Do you really think I would ask you to take back an insult you made to someone you don't know on the internet? I think I even used the word demand, ha. C'mon, dude, really? You're calling in moderators after all your talk about how there should be no moderation? You did insult me, and my practice, but really, it's fine. It doesn't phase me. Did my words sting that much? If so, I apologize. I thought me and you could joke at that level. We have before. And yes, I do have a tendency to agress. I like it. It's passionate. It's sometimes misguided, but mostly I think it's useful, and leads to good things, one of those being calling people out on what I perceive to be their unchecked misunderstandings.
For now, maybe just relax, and I won't question your ideas for a little bit. Go read some AF literature, or whatever is useful for you. I'm serious and that is not condescending. It's just the internet. It'd be useful not to take it so personally. I recognize that statement may be condescending and yet I think I'm right for saying it. 
You may not find my thoughts interesting, but look how you've responded to them. There seems to be some level of interest, if not affection. On my end it is mostly affection, momentary twinges of frustration but that actually only happened once during this interchange and was gone momentarily.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 3:06 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Nikolai .:
Guys, settle down please.

Bill. Do you think your approach helps?  This conversation has been done a number of times here and some have fun trying to win their arguments. So I'd let it go and get on with your life and please don't insult next time. It doesn't help. 

Alin, you seem to like actual freedom path and arguing for it. Are you actually free yet? If not may I suggest rather than pushing people's buttons and speaking from the state of a 'feeling being' (if you aren't actually free yet)  That you go get actually free and come back and talk from there rather than the stnky "feeling being" seemingly speaking from a "my view is better than your view" calenture. You will probably get more interested parties involved that way, as trying to do the whole "buddhistic practices suck balls" angle has been done to death by many past "feeling beings" (not actually free) here at the Dho. 

Sincerely,
nick (not in mod mode)
Nick there is a BIG difference between the arguing and insults Bill and Pawel use, to the unoffensive clarifying i use.

if there is no way to correct people's constant misinterpretations of what actualism is other than by claiming Actual Freedom then in all fairness no one here should be discussing Buddhism either unless theyve claimed enlightenment or mastered their particular practice. otherwise youre advocating double standards. this forum has 3 moderators who are or have practiced actualism yet their failure to achieve AF doesn't stop them from discussing it here.

in fact i still don't know why this antithesis to buddhism is even accepted as a valid discussion by you 3 moderators and i expressed this in my first posts. Buddhism fans the subjective Feeling Being thus any discussion of a practice as radical as no subjective Being and no 'my point of view' is bound to cause the my view brigade to push their own buttons no matter how adroitly one tip toes around them to correct their misunderstandings about the actualism they keep bringing up ... and poo phooing. 

and i doubt for one moment that one decade of discussions about the possibility of a totally non subjective apperceptive awareness has done it's dash. it's barely started! the decks are still awash with buttons being pushed by their owner. it will take decades to clear them. so we may as well relax, there'll be a lot more Bill and Pawel tantys to put up with yet,  one's own included emoticon may as well learn how to be diplomatic to the max ... till the day ... we are all free of senselessness. 



 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 3:24 AM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
Alin: Relax, man. I was just kidding. You can poke fun at my ideas and practice all you want, I have no need or desire to defend them. Do you really think I would ask you to take back an insult you made to someone you don't know on the internet? I think I even used the word demand, ha. C'mon, dude, really? You're calling in moderators after all your talk about how there should be no moderation? You did insult me, and my practice, but really, it's fine. It doesn't phase me. Did my words sting that much? If so, I apologize. I thought me and you could joke at that level. We have before. And yes, I do have a tendency to agress. I like it. It's passionate. It's sometimes misguided, but mostly I think it's useful, and leads to good things, one of those being calling people out on what I perceive to be their unchecked misunderstandings.
For now, maybe just relax, and I won't question your ideas for a little bit. Go read some AF literature, or whatever is useful for you. I'm serious and that is not condescending. It's just the internet. It'd be useful not to take it so personally. I recognize that statement may be condescending and yet I think I'm right for saying it. 
You may not find my thoughts interesting, but look how you've responded to them. There seems to be some level of interest, if not affection. On my end it is mostly affection, momentary twinges of frustration but that actually only happened once during this interchange and was gone momentarily.

you got major work to do. don't expect any further replies from me. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 8:17 AM as a reply to Bill F..
re:Bill F. (3/7/15 3:49 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews. )

"No worries. next time i come across the many Buddhist ideals that enhance the sense of Being i shall add them to a list and when it's long enough i'll post it in. can't have a fellow human being getting all "troubld" without facts."

"I am actually interested. If there is one that is canonical, I want to know. If there is "many", please share a couple from memory. If I am wrong I will say so. As I said before Buddhism has come to mean many things to many people but I disagree that the view you have shared is a predominant one. "

Let me second that request (without otherwise engaging or taking any side in the dialog here), i.e. instances of "Buddhists" voicing "ideals" in that direction would be less interesting that cited instances in the teachings from the Buddha (as purported, from whatever source) which discuss "the sense of Being", or which are interpreted by a translator or commentator as such.

The different flavors of "Buddhism,"of the belief systems voiced by people who consider themselves "Buddhist" (Jack Kornfield's "Mandala of Buddhisms" notwithstanding), would be material less for a study in the area of Buddha Dhamma than in the area of socialogy, of anthropology of Western, "new age", German Romaniticism, etc. influenced patterns of conditioning -- something Ann Gleig might undertake.

What means this "enhance the sense of Being" anyway? I'm not familiar with it. Is it a coded phrase in some path framework or belief system? Or just an informal depiction of something?

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 6:46 PM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:


Bill: "I am actually interested. If there is one that is canonical, I want to know. If there is "many", please share a couple from memory. If I am wrong I will say so. As I said before Buddhism has come to mean many things to many people but I disagree that the view you have shared is a predominant one. "

Let me second that request.... 
Chris,

if reproducing suttas or other peoples words in idioms you prefer is all that interests you after having just witnessed a prime example [in action] of how useless metta practice is for overriding, let alone deleting instinctual aggressions, then nothing i copy and paste or any of the spiritual tombs already posted here many times over - which evidence that buddhism and any form of spiritual practice encourages the inflation of the sense if being a Feeling Being - will be read without spiritual filters. hence your inability to see...

... i repeat; i'm only here to correct people spiritual misinterpretations of what AF is -- as they post them or when they post an example that reveals the differences they've been claiming aren't there, or when they express their abject failure to overide or delete their instinctual aggressions with their loving spiritual practice -- after poo-phooing AF. how spiritual readers react to this information is revealing the facts of the matter far better than any suttas i could ever waste my time scouring the net for.

iow if no one were to mention AF here i would have no interest in posting.   

  

  

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 5:46 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Paweł K:
Alin Mathews
Ok, I hear you. AF is different than Buddhism and oter traditions.
And because of that I have a question(s):

After elimination of the so called "Feeling Being" would I be actually free from feeling I have when I hit my finger with a hammer?
Or when it is incredibly hot in summer, cold in winter or any unpleasant physical sensations, would AF make me feel felicitous all the time?

I ask because no one here ever mention anything regarding physical pain and unpleasantness reduction. If AF promises its total elimination and with it being "Actually Free" from human condition which physical suffering is big part of then it might be actually something different than typical Dharma or other spiritual nonsense reiterated here on DhO. I do not claim total suffering elimination but most unpleasantness yes, and my practice does deal with physical pain too and year after year I am less prone to experiencing it, it changes for strong but otherwise painless touch sensation.

Also there is promised sensual delight or something like that after being AF. How much delight are we talking about? Do you feel everything around you that comes from all senses as pleasure that is not emotional but sensual? Are colors vibrant, everything having depth and taste and at the same time everything is just still and unmoving, 'not-alive' and single-taste impression that is like some kind of pleasant touch that you could be ok even if it lasted for eternity?

I ask because if AF is really so unique and Richard is only person that attained it and actualism is only way to get it then I couldn't have anything even remotely similar. If that is true then anything I experience must be 180° in the opposite direction to actualism. You know, every spiritual practice is apparently in the same direction and mine must be too... So let's assume I join your club, pay some fine or whatever Richard charge for actual information on how to practice actualism (and not just description what is gone) then what could I gain? Poor statistics on becoming Actually Free aside, assuming I could eventually get there what would be benefit over my current practice?

I am serious, not joking around and there is no hidden agency behind my post. I would aprreciate if you answered it. If my Buddha inspired practice and effects are somehow wrong then I would like to know that. I am apparently too stupid to know what 180° in the opposite direction means if I already hardly feel anything other than 'felicitous' at all and I consider myself Buddhist, 2nd ten-fetter path to be exact. I suppose at 3rd path I will not feel anything at all and and 4th path I will be so out of phase with reality I will have to either join monastery in 7 days or they take me to mental hospital. Please help me change my erroneous ways that are leading me astray!

BTW. I am sorry to talk so  badly about AF and being rude and insulting. Hope you can forgive me my previous behaviour. We people practicing according to Buddha advices are sometimes so inconsiderate... it is all because all those overflowing emotions that come from feeling being, we apparently cherish so much. We are even so stupid and blind we do not see that and think we are free from notion of self, identification, life, etc! You should know how it is, you practiced those practices for many years so you must know this feeling of only pleasant sensations all the time for month after month, year after year... it does make people less considerate than when having no feeling at all. I am victim here you know...

Without metta, (cause you do not like it)
Paweł
Pawel

When you can ask questions minus the insincerity, cynicism, sarcasm and condescension you'll get your answers, and they'll make more sense than your mind is presently willing to accept.

at the moment you don't display enough genuine interest to merit me duplicating effort. get past yourself first then you'll see the answers to your questions are already in my past posts  -- and on the AF site.  

may i suggest you hold off conversing with me for a while until you can do so without upsetting yourself.

i only got over being a drama queen when i realised what a complete and utter bore it made me ... perpetuating thousands of years of shite. the dramas are still here, heaps, as awakening never ends. but they are much more intriquing and challenging minus the aggro.
 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/8/15 11:39 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Hey guys,

I think the point Alin is trying to make here is that the Buddhist path doesn't eliminate the feelings, and thus is still perpetuating the root of the problem.  Metta practice strengthens the feeling-center, and the jhanas have an emotional component.  While it's true that the Buddhism discussed on this forum (along with the Buddhism taught by most meditation teachers in modern times) does not aim at eliminating the feelings, I think there's some evidence in the Pali cannon that the Buddha was pointing to the elimination of feelings.

I think part of the confusion comes from Richard's use of similar language.  When he's talking about eliminating the "feeling being," this isn't related to the Buddist concept of anatta.  He's referring to the identity, like who you think you are (man, tall, fat, thin, ugly, smart, good at this, bad at that, need to do this, related to that, etc) and the instictual emotional feelings (rage, anger, sadness, giddiness, joy, boredom, etc).  This is unrelated to the sense of "I am" or the sense of existence as an entity, as these are both still intact in a PCE.

Pawel, feelings in the context of Actualism is always referring to emotional feelings.  Smashing your finger is always likely to hurt - though there are people who practice to eliminate that kind of feeling.  Who knows what we're capable of achieving. emoticon  I have to say that, personally, when there is no longer an emotional side to pain it doesn't hurt a fraction as much.  So being Actually Free is likely to lessen pain.  I haven't seen Richard write about that at all, though.

BTW, it's hard to sort out who's trolling who in this thread, haha.  Good spectator sport...

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/9/15 12:06 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
BTW, it's hard to sort out who's trolling who in this thread, haha.  Good spectator sport...

That's how it should be, bruh. All in the game. All in the game.

For the record I do not believe Chris Macie is trolling, but perhaps. 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/9/15 6:30 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
re: Alin Mathews (3/8/15 6:46 PM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

Earlier you wrote:
(1)""No worries. next time i come across the many Buddhist ideals that enhance the sense of Being i shall add them to a list and when it's long enough i'll post it in. can't have a fellow human being getting all "troubld" without facts."

But then you wrote:
(2) "if reproducing suttas or other peoples words in idioms you prefer is all that interests you after having just witnessed a prime example [in action] of how useless metta practice is for overriding, let alone deleting instinctual aggressions, then nothing i copy and paste or any of the spiritual tombs already posted here many times over - which evidence that buddhism and any form of spiritual practice encourages the inflation of the sense if being a Feeling Being - will be read without spiritual filters…."

Is this (2) backing-out on the above intention (1)?

I'm not offering any "spiritual misinterpretations of what AF is" for you to correct. I'm interested in examining the evidence for statements you've posed about Buddhism.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/9/15 6:36 AM as a reply to Not Tao.
re: Not Tao (3/8/15 11:39 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.)

"I think the point Alin is trying to make here is that the Buddhist path doesn't eliminate the feelings, and thus is still perpetuating the root of the problem.  Metta practice strengthens the feeling-center, and the jhanas have an emotional component.  While it's true that the Buddhism discussed on this forum (along with the Buddhism taught by most meditation teachers in modern times) does not aim at eliminating the feelings, I think there's some evidence in the Pali cannon that the Buddha was pointing to the elimination of feelings."

I'll second that too.

However many "Buddhists" interpret and teach – as, to give them the benefit of the doubt, introductory, expedient or bridging pedagogical methods – the Brahma-viharas, as per the sutta-s, when fully developed, are "immeasureable abidings", beyond individualized projection  or attachment; and the culminating 4th one, uppekha / equanimity, goes to the 4th jhana, where there's no pleasure or pain, none of what Westerners call 'emotions' (complex sankhara-s) not even the vedana-s (primal feeling-tones).

I would re-phrase
"… the Buddha was pointing to the elimination of feelings….
(to avoid the negative connotations of artificial suppression orrepression, which many prefer to read-into this)
as something like:
"…evidence … that the Buddha was pointing to a place, an abiding, where there's no ground for, no need of, no use for feeling-emotions…"

(That is, the sankhara / fabricated emotional complexes; the vedana, or primal feeling-tone of sensations, still come and go in lived experience.)

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/9/15 9:15 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
re: Alin Mathews (3/8/15 6:46 PM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

Earlier you wrote:
(1)""No worries. next time i come across the many Buddhist ideals that enhance the sense of Being i shall add them to a list and when it's long enough i'll post it in. can't have a fellow human being getting all "troubld" without facts."

But then you wrote:
(2) "if reproducing suttas or other peoples words in idioms you prefer is all that interests you after having just witnessed a prime example [in action] of how useless metta practice is for overriding, let alone deleting instinctual aggressions, then nothing i copy and paste or any of the spiritual tombs already posted here many times over - which evidence that buddhism and any form of spiritual practice encourages the inflation of the sense if being a Feeling Being - will be read without spiritual filters…."

Is this (2) backing-out on the above intention (1)?

I'm not offering any "spiritual misinterpretations of what AF is" for you to correct. I'm interested in examining the evidence for statements you've posed about Buddhism.

after Bill lost the plot (which went straight over your head) i realised i'd be wasting my time (on both of you) for the reasons i gave in the paragraph you omitted.

then again i could be convinced that you are genuinely interested were you to post in evidence refuting my statements. Buddhism being more your thing than mine. otherwise, like i said to Bill, the list is HUGE could take me years and that thought also brought me to my senses  emoticon         

the thing about being actual is you lose interest in academia and writing long posts. i much prefer being outdoors amongst the elements now without a gadget (or a buddhist emoticon) diverting my attention away from it.  

 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/9/15 9:38 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
I was going to say--when people are joking or not being completely serious, emoticons can help do what tone of voice would do if we were speaking face to face. Alin has demonstrated this in his most recent post. Or else, say, do something like <joking>insert verbiage </joking>. Whatever. 

I have a chronic pain condition that has been dragging me down, and I can clearly testify that I cope with it with more equanimity than in the deep past, but I can't say that it hurts any less. And sometimes I am reduced to depression or even tears, and I think, "Look at this, I'm crying!" There's no self-reproach to go with it, just the observation that this is what the illness does. Still, I think that more maturity in my practice could help me regulate myself to manage the condition more skillfully. I have not done much metta. Perhaps that would help. Sometimes just getting to the cushion is difficult. 

Am I happy? I must say that this is just the way things are. I can work with it or fight against it. I am working with it.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/9/15 8:03 PM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Alin Mathews:
Psi:
Alin Mathews:
[quote=

"I don't think an arahant would have to actively purify something since ignorance, the root of the defilements, is gone. Otherwise one wouldn't be an arahant according to the sutta based ten fetter model. 

And by 'non-returner' stage, in 10-fetter model, attraction and aversion as roots of most "afflictive emotions" are already gone




this is where AF differs majorly from eastern teachings.
 
Mental ignorance (wrong thinking) is not considered the root of defilements by practitioners of actualism, the subjective sense of being a Feeling Being (aka a spiritual metta loving soul) is. and that subjective sense of being a Being is what creates the illusion of an inner and outer world.

The 'who you feel you are' is considered to have morphed/fabricated itself out of the ancient instinctual passions inherited from the animals. Whereas the ego, the intellectual identity (who you 'think' you are) is considered to have developed 'after' the Feeling Being, as evidenced by the importance ancient races place on feelings and their belief in disembodied immortal souls temporarily inhabiting the body.

Both 'who' you feel you are and 'who' you think you are, are ruled/driven by the ancient instinctual survival passions. therefore humans are obsessed with not only who they think and feel they are, but what others think and feel about them, and what they feel and think about others. 

The reason why the ending of the illusion of the mentally fabricated intellectual thinking ego (who you think you are) does not end ignorance and defilements is because the instinctual passions that form the inner Feeling Being (aka the spiritual Self) remains favored and continues to rule every constructive thought arising from the new, barely developed neurons. thus human intelligence no matter how enlightened it thinks it is, remains enslaved (controlled) by ancient robotic instinctual passions surfacing as afflictive and affectionate emotional-thinking. like Pawel's emoticon

Alin, This argument keeps coming up about the Spiritual Self and AF versus Eastern Religions, as it is clearly stated on the AF website, but not many here believe in that stuff. Though I can really only speak for myself.  And what  you are preaching against is not what is found in Buddhism either Pragmatic or Traditional.  Buddhist Practices , in my experience have brought about changes in the freeing up of the mind from the Emotional and  Habitual Instinctual Reactions.  In fact alot of what Richard states at AF website rings true, just not all.  Some seems a little off base from the process that is unfolding in my circumstance, and some seems eerily familiar, just different adjectives.  PCE description describes what I call Bare Attention or Mindfulness, for instance.  Just the Pure Awareness, sans the thinker/ ego.  Richard's a Precis of Actual Freedom describes what I generally call Bare Attention.

I don't really want to get into any arguments or debates, I am just glad for anyone to be practicing a productive path in training of the mind and body. Because it works, by whatever Methods or Paths, and what works is good, and what works is Pragmatic.

Psi

Sorry but i don't understand the reason for this reply at all as there is nothing even remotely argumentative in my simple and unoffensive explanations.      
Hi Alin, 

No, I was not saying you were being argumentative or neither offensive nor unoffensive, there just seems to be some slight misunderstandings.

For in the liberation of the mind, and towards the end of suffering and the final uprooting of suffering, there is the reduction and elimination of what you call feelings and emotions. Those being reactions of emotional anger, lusting, love with attachments, sorrow, sadness, despair, lamentation, worry, etc.  the list goes on.  It seems to me , these emotional states branch off of Craving, the wanting and not wanting of the ways things actually are.  The opposite of this is PCE, or Right Mindfulness.  For when the mind is existing in Right Mindfulness, the aforementioned emotional states will not arise, same as in PCE.

And further to the core of the matter is the Ego delusion, from which, as far as I can tell, Craving and emotional reactions arise from.  i.e. When one thinks that phenomenon are happening to some personal form or entity, or supreme self , or soul.  That is part of the delusion, the reality is that it is all of an impersonal nature.  Richard , from AF, also states this.  This is also called Anatta.

But, that being said, one is not also a flesh and blood body, but , there is flesh and blood, and there are sensations with the universe as the flesh and blood interact within the universe.  That is another delusion, believing the energy of the body is separate from the energy in the universe.

For an Arahant though, back to the OP, the Arahant also eliminates these other five things.

The Arahant eliminates the attachment to form, Attachment to the Formless Phenomenon, Conceit, (measuring and comparing one's self against others), Restlessness, and Ignorance.

It seems these last five steps have been overlooked, and that maybe the OP would better be phrased to analyze the Anagami stage of liberation, as it is within this stage that the Afflictive emotions no longer arise, same as in Actual Freedom stage.

Many Blessings for your practice, 

Psi

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/9/15 6:38 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi:
[quote=
]
Many Blessings for your practice, 

Psi
thanks Psi, and backatcha

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 8:10 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
re: Alin Mathews (3/9/15 9:15 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"after Bill lost the plot (which went straight over your head) i realised i'd be wasting my time (on both of you) for the reasons i gave in the paragraph you omitted. "

Have you seen that thread of a couple of weeks ago on "Intellectual Honesty as Right Speech". The "Right Speech" might be too Buddhist for you, but the more general terms clearly relate to the penchant, as demonstrated above, for belittling other people (not just their ideas). That's called "ad hominem" argumentation. And, frankly, I've seen no basis for this attitude of supposed superiority; it rather suggests some deep-seated insecurity.

"then again i could be convinced that you are genuinely interested were you to post in evidence refuting my statements."        

"Genuinely interested" in what? In being "converted" to this "AF" or "actual" thing, whatever that is? The more you flaunt it, the less interesting it becomes. Certainly not interested in refuting your rather nebulous and evasive statements. I asked a question as to evidence you claimed to have about Buddhism. I am interested in understanding diverse viewpoints, evidence and well-reasoned argumentation that support them.

"the thing about being actual is you lose interest in academia and writing long posts. i much prefer being outdoors amongst the elements now without a gadget (or a buddhist emoticon) diverting my attention away from it."

Then what is it that interests you here? Why don't you lose interest in spending all the time and words trolling these discussion threads? Though, admittedly, it does provide entertainment at times. emoticon

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/12/15 3:48 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
re: Alin Mathews (3/9/15 9:15 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"after Bill lost the plot (which went straight over your head) i realised i'd be wasting my time (on both of you) for the reasons i gave in the paragraph you omitted. "

Have you seen that thread of a couple of weeks ago on "Intellectual Honesty as Right Speech". The "Right Speech" might be too Buddhist for you, but the more general terms clearly relate to the penchant, as demonstrated above, for belittling other people (not just their ideas). That's called "ad hominem" argumentation. And, frankly, I've seen no basis for this attitude of supposed superiority; it rather suggests some deep-seated insecurity.

"then again i could be convinced that you are genuinely interested were you to post in evidence refuting my statements."        

"Genuinely interested" in what? In being "converted" to this "AF" or "actual" thing, whatever that is? The more you flaunt it, the less interesting it becomes. Certainly not interested in refuting your rather nebulous and evasive statements. I asked a question as to evidence you claimed to have about Buddhism. I am interested in understanding diverse viewpoints, evidence and well-reasoned argumentation that support them.

"the thing about being actual is you lose interest in academia and writing long posts. i much prefer being outdoors amongst the elements now without a gadget (or a buddhist emoticon) diverting my attention away from it."

Then what is it that interests you here? Why don't you lose interest in spending all the time and words trolling these discussion threads? Though, admittedly, it does provide entertainment at times. emoticon

you do know how to make a poster with a different practice feel welcome don't you Chris emoticon  

look i totally understand the angst. i gather from your posts that you have invested a good deal of your life studying and identifying with eastern mysticism so there is simply NO WAY what i say - no matter how diplomatic - will go down like smooth icecream.

nevertheless, all i'm advocating is not confusing actualism terms and practices for buddhism ones and check out the sensate facts which is something the fabricating mind seems incapable of doing not even for the sake of peace on earth. 

why am i here? because i was under the illusion these minds were intelligent enough to wake up which means examining 'what' is actually happening and why the human condition reamins so dangerously delusional.  seems i was wrong. 

and i wouldn't get too impatient to see me go, as like most poster here, i will eventually stop completely. so enjoy the entertainment while you can emoticon 

most of all watch how 'you' respond to a person with no spiritual delusions. 

...and get used to it. more are coming. the numbers questioning the sense in adhering to ancient teachings is escalating. 

   
btw i practically live outdoors, not online as you imagine. actuality is stunning, the solid sensation of sitting on an actual rock that doesnt need 'my' perspective to exist, is mind blowing emoticon 


 

 

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 11:13 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
I could do so much with this thread. But, man of my word, I will refrain for now.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 10:35 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
re: Alin Mathews (3/9/15 9:15 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"after Bill lost the plot (which went straight over your head) i realised i'd be wasting my time (on both of you) for the reasons i gave in the paragraph you omitted. "

Have you seen that thread of a couple of weeks ago on "Intellectual Honesty as Right Speech". The "Right Speech" might be too Buddhist for you, but the more general terms clearly relate to the penchant, as demonstrated above, for belittling other people (not just their ideas). That's called "ad hominem" argumentation. And, frankly, I've seen no basis for this attitude of supposed superiority; it rather suggests some deep-seated insecurity.

It has a strong moral code of ethics doesn't it, Buddhism? wrong view, right speech etc
then along come the facts (or fools) and blow it out of the water.  
sure i'm insecure, i'm living on a planet of nutters who think there's nothing here emoticon


btw don't forget to give Bill one of those ethical rants too.  
you know, about what went straight over your head in your rush to target me 'personally' for not putting up with it. 

Buddhists amaze me. whenever i SHOW them they aren't behaving like one, they hit the roof.   
 




RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 10:59 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Enlightened people tend to move those they interact with toward greater enlightenment out of natural compassion. That's what draws us all here. Unfortunately whether you get people dancing a tango or engaged in a bar brawl depends on the particulars of the people. The more skilful the people the more the compassion is felt as compassion, and less it's felt as everyone being a dick.

Allowing disagreeable memes to simply pass through you and not be replicated is far more powerful than setting yourself up in opposition to them.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 11:01 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Paweł K:
typical we vs they mentality of person who is drowned in duality
fact that it comes from someone who try to repress parts of own mind is mere coincidence or maybe a pattern emerging?

BTW. people of all ages, races, personalities and realization of 'actual world' enjoy sitting on rocks. Hell, even other animals do!

awww youre just too nice to me Pawel, i don't know what to say emoticon


Oh hey, you know all that instinctual aggression i reckon is at the root of our problems.
well it looks like Stephen Hawkings onto it too. check this out  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/stephen-hawking-aggression-could-destroy-us-10057658.html

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 11:26 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
BTW. people of all ages, races, personalities and realization of 'actual world' enjoy sitting on rocks. Hell, even other animals do!- Pawel

Indeed. 
Animalsemoticon

Alin: You keep mentioning me by name, but also saying that you won't reply if I mention you. I can see by the frequency of times you've mentioned me despite me no longer engaging with you on that level that this is an issue for you, and it is personal, not about some altruistic motive on your part and the innefectiveness of Buddhist methods on the other part. That is a cloak, and it is transparent. 
I've apologized twice already. I was just being silly. I intended harm to your ideas, but not you personally. If you would like meet personally on skype, or discuss with me through private message here, or through email, we can do that. It may be useful for you/me. Whatever you are feeling about it was not my intentions, and I'm not even sure what the "it" is at this point.

Sincerely,
Bill

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 11:26 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Could we, perhaps, just share (I know, that is an overused word) our respective experiences, maybe for the sake of comparison, but even better for the sake of increasing everyone's knowledge and well-being? I have not practiced actualism, but I get the impression, from what reading I did awhile ago, that it includes a direct experience of sensate reality, and utilizes a distinctive vocabulary. There is also a claim to release people from all strong emotions.

Buddhist arahants are, according to traditional scripture as pointed out by Ian And early in this thread, likewise released from afflictive emotions, which would include manic joy as well as the more easily identified ones such as anger, jealousy, etc. The attainment of enlightenment includes a deliverance from the illusion of the separate self. Physiological systems continue as long as the individual survives, which means hunger, thirst, physical pain, etc. will manifest. There is also the divine abidings that accompany awakening--lovingkindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity--but these I don't see exactly as "emotions," although one will feel a deep warmth in the heart center, allowing for a sense of expansiveness that brings a person into harmony with all that is (the final of the four, equanimity--"let it be").

So: what do people here experience? And at what stages of insight or progress in AF? This is what we can share with each other, without necessarily punishing anyone for having a different language, thought, or experience. There was a wonderful post by Travis Gene McKinstry on his thread about life after SE, which to my mind is a valuable encouragement to everybody's practice. AF practitioners could speak in similar terms of their experiences, and of what specific practices have brought them to their attainments. I think we all could profit from such an exchange, in a spirit of openness and interest.

May this post be of benefit to all beings.

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/10/15 11:48 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Alin Mathews:
... i repeat; i'm only here to correct people spiritual misinterpretations of what AF is -- as they post them or when they post an example that reveals the differences they've been claiming aren't there, or when they express their abject failure to overide or delete their instinctual aggressions with their loving spiritual practice -- after poo-phooing AF. how spiritual readers react to this information is revealing the facts of the matter far better than any suttas i could ever waste my time scouring the net for.

Then please do it on another thread. This thread is to discuss "Do arahants have afflictive feelings?", not to "correct people spiritual misinterpretations of what AF is". If you want to do that from what someone said here then reply in a new thread.

Actualism itself may be on-topic here since it may help to shed light on whether arahants have afflictive feelings, but discussing what actualism is, how it's different from Buddhism, correcting people's misunderstanding of it, etc., should go elsewhere.

I'd like to split parts of this thread off, but there's no clean cut so I'll leave it as-is. But if the topic starts to diverge again I will split them off.

Regards,
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Mod Golem

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/11/15 9:55 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
Could we, perhaps, just share (I know, that is an overused word) our respective experiences, maybe for the sake of comparison, but even better for the sake of increasing everyone's knowledge and well-being?

Thanks Laurel,

actually i was thinking the exact same thing. can't we just stick to the topics please. instead i got comments on my lousy writing ability, got asked why was 'i' here? what made 'me' decide to post that day ??? what were my past practices (after i'd made it clear more than once i wasn't here to discuss 'me') got reminded of how dumb i was not to grok their sarcasm. what is this mud i'm posting? how long do i intend to troll here, as though clarifying what actualism is is trolling even though 3 DhO's moderator gave actualism a try themselves. got demanded to produce data 'now' (even though i'd already said may take years to collect).  then there was that totally juvenile comment about ejaculation ???

it all looks like, given i'm the only one here solely focussed on clarifying AF, that these personal comments are an instinctual defense mechanism. an attempt to divert attention away from the message to the messenger, as though the message threatens their belief system. dunno for sure but like you i only want to address the topics i'm here for.  


I have not practiced actualism, but I get the impression, from what reading I did awhile ago, that it includes a direct experience of sensate reality, and utilizes a distinctive vocabulary. There is also a claim to release people from all strong emotions.

Buddhist arahants are, according to traditional scripture as pointed out by Ian And early in this thread, likewise released from afflictive emotions, which would include manic joy as well as the more easily identified ones such as anger, jealousy, etc. The attainment of enlightenment includes a deliverance from the illusion of the separate self. Physiological systems continue as long as the individual survives, which means hunger, thirst, physical pain, etc. will manifest. There is also the divine abidings that accompany awakening--lovingkindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity--but these I don't see exactly as "emotions," although one will feel a deep warmth in the heart center, allowing for a sense of expansiveness that brings a person into harmony with all that is (the final of the four, equanimity--"let it be").

So: what do people here experience? And at what stages of insight or progress in AF? This is what we can share with each other, without necessarily punishing anyone for having a different language, thought, or experience. There was a wonderful post by Travis Gene McKinstry on his thread about life after SE, which to my mind is a valuable encouragement to everybody's practice. AF practitioners could speak in similar terms of their experiences, and of what specific practices have brought them to their attainments. I think we all could profit from such an exchange, in a spirit of openness and interest.

May this post be of benefit to all beings.

same here

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/11/15 10:03 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Alin Mathews:
... i repeat; i'm only here to correct people spiritual misinterpretations of what AF is -- whenever they post buddhist examples that reveal the differences they claim aren't there or when they express their abject failure to overide or delete their instinctual aggressions with their buddhist spiritual practice -- after poo-phooing AF. how spiritual readers react to this information reveals the facts of the matter far better than any suttas i could ever waste my time scouring the net for.

Then please do it on another thread. This thread is to discuss "Do arahants have afflictive feelings?", not to "correct people spiritual misinterpretations of what AF is". If you want to do that from what someone said here then reply in a new thread.

Actualism itself may be on-topic here since it may help to shed light on whether arahants have afflictive feelings, but discussing what actualism is, how it's different from Buddhism, correcting people's misunderstanding of it, etc., should go elsewhere.

I'd like to split parts of this thread off, but there's no clean cut so I'll leave it as-is. But if the topic starts to diverge again I will split them off.

Regards,
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Mod Golem

go ahead split it if it helps.  

but it may not be necessary as from the sounds of it the 180 polar difference is now finally being acknowledged, albeit reluctantly. but anyone can read 'click here to understand actualism' now and the AF site when they start imagining theres just a lingo difference - again. i'm outa here for now as i'm approaching the Birdsville Track doing a 4wd adventure of a lifetime. no internet (most of time) just how i like it emoticon

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/11/15 2:35 AM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
re: Laurel Carrington (3/9/15 9:38 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.)

"I have a chronic pain condition that has been dragging me down, and I can clearly testify that I cope with it with more equanimity than in the deep past, but I can't say that it hurts any less..."

Hi Laurel,

Do you mind if I launch a separate thread to asks some questions and further explore this topic and the value of practices in relation to it?

Chris M

RE: Do arahants have afflictive feelings?
Answer
3/11/15 9:33 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Sure; I'd appreciate it, in fact.