(couldn't fit all in subject)

... as you move up in the Jhanas?


I've been doing some good ol' fashioned breath watching for the past couple weeks. The first few days I was doing the practice by just placing attention on the nostrils, whenever the attention wandered off, bring it back. Within 3 or 4 days I seemed to hit a nice A&P signaled by mild manic behavior, vivid dreams as well as a few other interesting things. Next few days the spot on my nostrils had to be widened to include the whole breathing body (diaphragm, lungs, chest, nostrils) because having it on the nostrils was irritating and was causing me too much tension. Now when I try and watch my breath, even in this wide way, my attention wants to let go of that and be aware of the entire body and just release whatever I'm clinging to. I'm still aware of my in and out breaths in the background, but now since my breath tends to be slower and shallower, I naturally feel like having the broader focus of the body.


So, is this going in the right direction?


It feels like I just want to let go of everything that seems to constrict my awareness, so the progression to broader focus of the body feels right. Feels right, but I just want to throw it out here to see what you guys and gals think.


So, to anyone reading this. In your experience, how does the way you relate to your concentration object change as you move higher in the Jhanas?

Hi Gerry, 

With my practice as my reference, yes, I think this is a good means into jhana:

"Feels right" I take to mean "feels well". That good feeling is very key to me. It's not required, but it's a welcoming way into attention training.

There is a story told of Siddhartha recalling his attention and pleasantness as a child sitting under the shade of a rose-apple tree which inspired him later in his meditative study.

For me, "feels well" meant putting the practice in environments and at times that were already nice-feeling to me: river's edge, bench by trees, at a window at dawn and dusk, nights and mornings where the landscape is lit by moonlight. 

As time when on, just having this feels-right/feels well meant that the mind did overall settle down and go through things I would call "unified", magnetic," or "single-point" attention as well as baffling or startling (e.g., the low breathing aspect) . And eventually keeping a feels-right/feels well approach settled into periods of equanimity, where no matter what happened, including nothing, the mind had this sort of "yeah, there's a new plant coming up from the muck...oh, it went away," and big quiet, nothing-nothing. 


So I think "feels right" is very useful. Whenever I tried to force attention or training, I just got a lot of tension/pain. However, when I wanted to make strong effort, that was not force; i just remember how to start in "feel right". 

Today I make a strong effort to have the mind in sukkha often, particularly moving it into my actual work, becuase sukkha, ease/comfort feels good and is good for creating sustained mental attention. It has taken me a relatively long time to move jhana training into daily life :]

Thank you for you reply Katy

By feels right, I definitely do mean feels good. Feels good because I'm not as attached to negative feelings and thoughts and I just let them be, watching them rise and fall without being so tense about them arising. Not preoccupied on keeping a tense hold on either the breath, a negative feeling, or even a subtle tension. A recognition of what stress feels like, relaxing the tension around the stress and just letting it be. This has led me to much more relaxed sits as well much more relaxed daily life.

Another thing I mean by feels right is that intuitively, it feels like the right way to go if I want to get Path. If getting Path means you release all clinging and attachment, craving and aversion, then the tight focused, forced, stressful way in which I was going at it just doesn't seem right. That seems to me to further reinforce craving and aversion. Throughout my time spent meditating, I've thought the way towards progress was by bareing down on my object and getting mad at myself if a thought came up because I had to stay with the breath and only the breath. This approach seemed to work in the beginning to initially get me past the A&P years back, but now I'm realizing the value in a much more relaxed approach. 


I definitely relate to having more periods of equanimity as of lately. Just watching things come up and do their thing and then go. Much nicer. It's also interesting how for so long, "one-pointed" to me meant a tight focus, like a laser. I now am realizing (if I'm not completely mistaken) that "one-pointedness" can encompass something as broad as the entire breathing body. I can also relate to having taken a long time to bring about the Jhana qualities to daily life. There were times when I'd be at ease, and I didn't know why, but for the most part I was a big neurotic mess in daily life. As of lately, I can bring those qualities from when I sit into my daily life which has been a tremendous help.

Yes, totally. About six months prior to Path (a release which seems to me relevant and useful to a human using this model, but/and which in the massive cosmos of things is about on par with other event) I thought, "I guess that was path." Then I saw, no, it wasn't. It was clear to me without analysis that, simply, there was no path. I stopped sitting for about two months and just gave up, but I was sitting  around ("feels right" as you say) still: on the couch, just quiet, breathing; going to bed, just quiet, just breathing-- the prior training has its own momentum. I didn't realize that, yes, breathing meditation is a positive operant training and because it "feels right" the brain will do it on its own at a certain point. There is a native adoption of it because, indeed, it is pleasant-calm abiding. Then in that phase of give-up, "If there's Path (sotapanna), I don't know what they're talking about)" I got up one morning to see the full moon of the night setting over the river. So that was my attention-- just natural attention (something about arrogance happened here-- without any thought I did suddenly realize I was assuming something about the moon by simply having a name for it). Anyway, I got up as dawn started and just moved to a different chair and watched the river again. Again, I was not "meditating", but my brain and body were definitely just abiding in the pleasantness as the prior training. I had released, totally given up on "path", I had even lost energy to be frustrated. Hence, "just sitting". And voila, that's when that happened, that so-called path (again, a release that seems to me useful to a human using this system, but is ultimately just another event among myriad in a vast cosmos). Then stories like this can create attachment and longing! (It did for me =)

I have found consistently that if I say, "I guess that was path.. or unification of mind", then I'm wrong! And other times I cannot deny things that occur in perception and I say, "Wow, that's why they call it unification of mind," or something.

Gerry, your account is clear and I liked reading it, the account of another practitioner.  Thank you. As you wrote, "release all clinging and attachment."

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Edit:
"seems to me" in purple, because this is just the experience I recognize,
not some absolute, eternal truth, and it's nothing I take as absolute to myself even.
So, even though I think anyone knows that for themselves, to me, it's important to be clear on this.

Apologies for the late reply. Today was a busy day.

First off, I want to thank you for sharing that story. It's so inspiring and helpful to hear people's stories of awakenings and what was going on in practice around the time. Although getting Path is my goal, I definitely let go of that during my sits. In fact, as of late, I rarely even think of "Stream Entry", or how it will play out because I see from so many stories that it is never how we imagine it to be and fantasizing about it is just another thing to drop. Another thing that needs to be released. Another tension to relax.

Again, thank you. Your writing has been very helpful to me and I appreciate the fact that this community has so many cool people willing to help and share with each other.


Gerry

Thank you, Gerry. You can see from my number of posts that this is a key, beneficial interest to me. I get a lot out of following people's threads here and their efforts in their conditions despite hardship.

And I think many of us have our ups and downs: at least I do. I am amazed at the effort and sincerity I read here (and in meeting others face-to-face, in person). I really appreciate your post.


Gerry:
I have to look to this, too, over and over again: forms of clinging are so deep and renewable in me, a living being, evolved for survival and pleasant-sensation seeking, and these are manipulative motivators. I'm not berating myself or anyone: just compassion for what is this animal, what is my intention in this focus for nibbana, and where wise effort and surviving animal do not always meet up.  

There is a sutta (for those who are interested in the Pāli canon) which asks rhetorically, "What is the purpose of living under the Buddha?" "Release". I can't find that sutta at the moment, though I myself cited it about seven weeks ago :p

 Thanks, again. 
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editx1
editx2 a little effort for brevity =]

Release, yes. This seems to me to be a big part of my practice as of late. Not holding onto ideas of what practice should be. Opening to whatever comes. Seems release is one of, if not THE key to everything I'm aiming for in practice. Thank you for this Katy

Just want to say that describes what I often find too - do I keep up with trying to focus on one thing, disciplined, or allow the wider awareness of those natural flows of pleasure that arise when relaxation develops ? But although they feel positive there is a nagging doubt that I am getting attached to something - although refusing to pay any attention would mean anhedonia.