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Experience of divine presence at A&P

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Experience of divine presence at A&P Fitter Stoke 6/1/15 10:40 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Ian And 6/1/15 11:13 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Noah 6/1/15 11:28 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Ian And 6/1/15 12:08 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Noah 6/1/15 12:10 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P . Jake . 6/1/15 12:26 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Pål 6/2/15 9:28 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Noah 6/2/15 10:07 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Fitter Stoke 6/2/15 10:51 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Ian And 6/2/15 5:55 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Fitter Stoke 6/2/15 7:28 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P CJMacie 6/3/15 8:13 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P cian 6/2/15 5:57 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Ian And 6/2/15 6:54 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P cian 6/3/15 6:38 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Fitter Stoke 6/2/15 7:31 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Noah 6/1/15 11:26 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P . Jake . 6/1/15 12:04 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P cian 6/1/15 2:55 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P CJMacie 6/3/15 8:59 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P cian 6/11/15 7:47 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P cian 6/11/15 8:50 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Banned For waht? 6/11/15 10:29 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Banned For waht? 6/11/15 2:14 PM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Banned For waht? 6/12/15 6:28 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P cian 6/12/15 6:16 AM
RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P Andrew B. 6/12/15 9:38 AM
Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 10:40 AM
Curious to hear from anyone who has experienced a "divine presence" at the A&P. What was the experience like at a bare sensate level? What were the circumstances surrounding it (what sort of practice, if any)? And had you already experienced stream-entry?

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 11:13 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
How are you defining "divine presence"?

But over and above this term's definition, isn't that just another mental construct (concept) to be let go of?

Why would anyone encourage others in wrong view to hold onto useless mental constructs? That goes against the stream of the Dhamma that Gotama taught.

Is the premise of this inquiry meant to liberate or to enslave the mind that buys into it?

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 11:26 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
Curious to hear from anyone who has experienced a "divine presence" at the A&P. What was the experience like at a bare sensate level? What were the circumstances surrounding it (what sort of practice, if any)? And had you already experienced stream-entry?


Circumstance: 3 day retreat with Amma, "the hugging saint" (who is know known to be corrupt and abusive, but realized and powerful nonetheless) in the summer of 2010.  I had previously attended a NYC darshan were she had given me the mantra, Aum Klim Atmane Namaha (you stand in a separate line and talk to her through an interpreter about your definition of god, etc.).  

At the 3-day, I was working with the mantra and a mala, all day every day.  In my head I was trying to psychically communicate to her my intention to have a big spiritual experience.  Sitting in a crowd of hundreds near the stage, I locked eyes with her briefly and she seemed to register me (whatever that means).  In AYP shakitpat is said to occur through touch, look or thought.  I would say it was look and thought (see below).

Later that day, in a Q&A session, she answered someone's question about what happens when we die, which triggered a wave of energy that seemed to visually come through the air and pass through my body.  I immediately involuntarily started sobbing and thoughts kept popping into my head spontaneously about the nature of the greater spirit in relation to her answer to the question.  Everyone around me looked like droplets of water connected to this ocean of spirit.  The phenomenology was both visual and also energy-body-intuitive feelings.  

I then felt high, as in, euphoric LSD, for the rest of the retreat.  Tbere was a strong feeling of adrenaline for hours and the sense of luminosity all around and through me.  It was very manic.  Then about 5 synchronicities occured.  Next day, went home, woke up, still high, walking around my hometown, I was hallucinating bindus on people's foreheads and car engines sounded like 'Aums'.  I also had a warm feeling in the middle of the chest/heart chakra.  Then it all wore off.

______

Edit: I hadn't achieved stream entry.  I actually think it was my first A&P.  

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 11:28 AM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:
How are you defining "divine presence"?

But over and above this term's definition, isn't that just another mental construct (concept) to be let go of?

Why would anyone encourage others in wrong view to hold onto useless mental constructs? That goes against the stream of the Dhamma that Gotama taught.

Is the premise of this inquiry meant to liberate or to enslave the mind that buys into it?


Ian, this sounds like it could be a really interesting discussion.  Can't we all just agree to disagree at the outset?  Your posts usually provide a gold mine of information.  I would discourage you from shifting from that level to the level of endless arguementation that this opportunity presents.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 12:04 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
I think it was more in the DN -> EQ region but during the lead up to SE there was a distinct experience that beings of greater wisdom and insight who existed on the subtle level were re-wiring my subtle body so that chanels were being re-routed through the heart center and things were being tied in at the heart center.

Phenomenal description: it was similar to the 'feeling of being looked at' in that they were behind me and active while I was sitting during this phase. This was the content of my sits. Sensate feelings of chanels being rewired primarily in the back of my upper body, neck and head (lower back and up). The sense of sentient entities which existed on the same level as my subtle body behind me doing the rewiring. Vague sense of them communicating with each other on a technical level (like, 'ok Joe now you connect that one up to this one and I'll put some torque on this fire chanel and you clamp off that water chanel for about 30 seconds... yup, good work guys').

Closest thing I can think of to what you are talking about. Generally it was pretty unusual for me to have interactions with invisible-world entities at that time so it stood out.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 12:08 PM as a reply to Noah.
Noah S:

Ian, this sounds like it could be a really interesting discussion.  Can't we all just agree to disagree at the outset?  Your posts usually provide a gold mine of information.  I would discourage you from shifting from that level to the level of endless arguementation that this opportunity presents.


Be careful. Your reply is exposing your ignorance of the Dhamma. As well as your inability to arrive at correct determintations of reality.

No one is arguing. There is a simple inquiry as to the definition of a term and a sincere questioning of the OP's premise for this as it applies to the Dhamma that Gotama taught.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 12:10 PM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:
Noah S:

Ian, this sounds like it could be a really interesting discussion.  Can't we all just agree to disagree at the outset?  Your posts usually provide a gold mine of information.  I would discourage you from shifting from that level to the level of endless arguementation that this opportunity presents.


Be careful. Your reply is exposing your ignorance of the Dhamma. As well as your inability to arrive at correct determintations of reality.

No one is arguing. There is a simple inquiry as to the definition of a term and a sincere questioning of the OP's premise for this as it applies to the Dhamma that Gotama taught.


Fair enough.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 12:26 PM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:
Noah S:

Ian, this sounds like it could be a really interesting discussion.  Can't we all just agree to disagree at the outset?  Your posts usually provide a gold mine of information.  I would discourage you from shifting from that level to the level of endless arguementation that this opportunity presents.


Be careful. Your reply is exposing your ignorance of the Dhamma. As well as your inability to arrive at correct determintations of reality.

No one is arguing. There is a simple inquiry as to the definition of a term and a sincere questioning of the OP's premise for this as it applies to the Dhamma that Gotama taught.

The OP doesn't seem to be in reference to the 'Dhamma that Gotama taught' but rather the stages of insight that are in MCTB and Mahasi's system. So it seemed to me that your inquiry may be off topic, (and Noah's response may indeed have reflected awareness not ignorance). For what it's worth; just a third party's perception of the interaction.

So, I don't know why it would be relevant whether or not Noah is or isn't ignorant of the 'Dhamma that Gotama taught' as that is not mentioned in the OP at all.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/1/15 2:55 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
Curious to hear from anyone who has experienced a "divine presence" at the A&P. What was the experience like at a bare sensate level? What were the circumstances surrounding it (what sort of practice, if any)? And had you already experienced stream-entry?
I went through a little phase a couple of months back of having some of what seemed to be 'Catholic 'visions'' while doing self-enquiry dyads with a friend on skype.  Jesus and Mary and all the ornate golden hokery pokery dangling around the edges and angels and stuff appearing as spontaneous visualisations/hallucinations/whateveryoucallems. (Mad!  I grew up going to catholic schools and such but never bought into the whole thing, inspired as I was by my atheist parents.)

What was the experience like at a bare sensate level?
I could see my friend on skype in front of me but at the same time kindof superimposed over it was a big not-so-clear but still quite recognisably jesus face (at least according to the way he's typically depicted in the culture around me) and then a couple of days later i think, mary popped up in a similar way.  Both experiences had sort of flashes of angel wings and the goldy stuff like i said hanging about in the peripheries (google image 'ornate golden catholic' for a general idea, and everything was highly illuminated.  I got what felt like a really strong sense of the beauty of the whole mythology of the religion and remember saying to my dyad partner, "i can see why people can really get into this stuff!".
What stood out most of all from it was a sense of "divine presence" (and i'm not gonna try to define that! emoticon ) - profound bliss, gratitude and a sense that i was loved - seemed to pour out of these 'visions' or "divine presences"
And there were a few similar yet less powerful moments that happened in day-to-day living around the same time.


My post-experience theorising on it, just for kicks:
It made me think of archetypes - how at a deep level we're pre-programmed as humans to respond positively to other humans. For obvious evolutionary reasons. And so we hold within us a blueprint, or archetype, of the primal other.  And that's what I was 'seeing' (archetypes tend to get a slightly different cultural sheen depending on where you've grown up) and I was feeling the pure concentrated form of the positive emotions that perhaps a baby feels when it recognises a face. But that's just some of my afterthoughts on it.

What were the circumstances surrounding it?
I guess I felt quite surrounded by love at the time.  I was spending time with my family, including my wonderful 1year old niece. And I was in the middle of falling in love in a new relationship.  Good friends.  My heart was quite full.  
This is a whole other story so i won't go into it unless anyone's particularly curious but I also have some kind of kundalini-slowly-making-its-way-up-the-chakras kindof phenomenon going on that I don't pretend to understand ...  well it was doing its crazy thing around the heart area at that time.  
I was probably still buzzing from a recent vipassana retreat too.  

Already experienced stream entry?
Yep.


As for this:
"Why would anyone encourage others in wrong view to hold onto useless mental constructs?"

Is anyone planning on encouraging me to hold onto the useless mental constructs that I described above??
If so I think Ian And's gonna kick your ass...
...nobody?..
Good. So we're safe from that one then. Phew.

{sorry for taking the piss Ian And, but I really don't get it.  how is this different from any other description of any other experience? Isn't all verbal communication a mere sharing of mental constructs!? If we follow your logic mustn't we abandon that entire human function at the very least ...}

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 9:28 AM as a reply to Ian And.
I might misunderstand you but, Ian And...

This is not a suttaic dhamma forum but a MCTB forum. Whenever I forget this threads tend go off track...

ON TOPIC: 

What do you guys think makes these experiences are connected to something divine? And Like IA said, what does that mean?

Maybe on topic:

@Ian And
so the concept of God is mostly againt Buddha dhamma, I agree on that. Do you know about the Jungian concept of God/Self? Would that be compatible with the dhamma? Maybe this should be another thread, on the motivation/goals category.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 10:07 AM as a reply to Pål.
Pal, I just mean something magickal, eery, energetic,synchronous, and especially posssessing the sense of a third party prescence and an automatic wondor and rapture in relation to it.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 10:51 AM as a reply to Ian And.
How are you defining "divine presence"?

I'm not. I deliberately left it vague in the hopes that the phrase would resonate with some people's experiences, and that they'd report on them. Apparently it worked.
But over and above this term's definition, isn't that just another mental construct (concept) to be let go of?
I guess it depends on what your goal is. When I had such an experience, I made very little of it, to tell you the truth. I never speculated on what would have happened if I had not "let go of" that experience, as you say, because I was never tempted to cling to it.

I'm curious as to why you would ask this question. I was merely asking if people have had such experiences. I never expressed concern about what they chose to do or not do with them.
Why would anyone encourage others in wrong view to hold onto useless mental constructs?
I have no idea.

What prompts you to ask this question? You seem to assume that I am encouraging people in such a fashion - if so, what led you to that presupposition?
That goes against the stream of the Dhamma that Gotama taught.
Be that as it may, how is that relevant to this discussion? Are you under the impression that participants of this forum are under an obligation to restrict their posts or their views so they accord with "the Dhamma that Gotama taught"?

You've been here a very long time, and you and I both know what your answer is to the second question. So let me ask another question: What's this really about?
Is the premise of this inquiry meant to liberate or to enslave the mind that buys into it?

Why take time out of what is probably a busy day to pretend you're a fool? Is that helping to enslave or liberate [by your own standards] your mind or the minds of others?

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 5:55 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Ian And:
Fitter Stoke:
How are you defining "divine presence"?

I'm not. I deliberately left it vague in the hopes that the phrase would resonate with some people's experiences, and that they'd report on them. Apparently it worked.

Fair enough. Thank you.


Ian And:
Fitter Stoke:
But over and above this term's definition, isn't that just another mental construct (concept) to be let go of?

I'm curious as to why you would ask this question. I was merely asking if people have had such experiences. I never expressed concern about what they chose to do or not do with them.

This is supposedly a forum based on mastering the core teachings of the Buddha. I'm merely stating the obvious. See any connection there? If not, maybe you are studying something else. Or maybe you have difficulty making obvious connections.


Fitter Stoke:
I guess it depends on what your goal is. When I had such an experience, I made very little of it, to tell you the truth. I never speculated on what would have happened if I had not "let go of" that experience, as you say, because I was never tempted to cling to it.

Yes, now that you mention it, it does depend upon what one's goal is. The way you responded to it, though, was very insightful of you. Congratulations.


Ian And:
Fitter Stoke:
Why would anyone encourage others in wrong view to hold onto useless mental constructs?

I have no idea.

Good answer. I agree.

Fitter Stoke:
What prompts you to ask this question?

This is supposedly a forum based on mastering the core teachings of the Buddha.


Fitter Stoke:
You seem to assume that I am encouraging people in such a fashion - if so, what led you to that presupposition?

Those are your assumptions, not mine. I merely asked a question.


Ian And:
Fitter Stoke:
That goes against the stream of the Dhamma that Gotama taught.

Be that as it may, how is that relevant to this discussion?

This is supposedly a forum based on mastering the core teachings of the Buddha.


Fitter Stoke:
Are you under the impression that participants of this forum are under an obligation to restrict their posts or their views so they accord with "the Dhamma that Gotama taught"?

Those are your impressions, not mine. I'm only pointing out the obvious. People are free to take from that however they wish.

Fitter Stoke:
You've been here a very long time, and you and I both know what your answer is to the second question.

Do we?

Fitter Stoke:
So let me ask another question: What's this really about?

What makes you assume that anything that has transpired is about anything?


Fitter Stoke:
Ian And:
Is the premise of this inquiry meant to liberate or to enslave the mind that buys into it?

Why take time out of what is probably a busy day to pretend you're a fool? Is that helping to enslave or liberate [by your own standards] your mind or the minds of others?

Nonsequitur. The premise of this inquiry has yet to be established. I merely asked a question. In order to demonstrate the Dhamma.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 5:57 PM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
still and all, Fitter Stroke having “deliberately left it vague in the hopes that the phrase would resonate with some people's experiences” sure enough instantly recalled me back to my ‘catholic visionary’ glory days.
But why did it!?  Clearly because I associate the experience I related as somehow ‘divine’; suggesting perhaps subconsciously I hold some belief or hope these were real extant ‘out there’ deities or somesuch magical fluff...and how much do we all, or most of us, still harbour these dreams and hopes of magical mammys and daddys in the sky who'll save us!? Lots, I would say!  

Guess I’m just trying to look from Ian And’s point of view...is that anything like what you mean?

However, having said that... if so:
1 then its a GREAT question to ask, in that it acts as a sort of “inner fluff detector” to highlight and notice that one is doing this!
and
2 even if it is a mental impurity you’re quite accurately calling us on, it feels like the level of restriction you're implying might be fitting more to a hyper-strict monastic setting rather than this rather chill internet forum (the very fact of being online meaning we’re probably automatically swamped in outrageous amounts of mental impurity from the getgo).

Hmmm.  damn.  I started this post trying to back the boy up. Oh well  , or "anyway!" as Daniel would say...






...INNER FLUFF DETECTOR!! emoticon

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 6:54 PM as a reply to cian.
At the risk of misreading this (since cian's post was posted as a reply to Fitter Stoke), I will reply since its inquiries seem to be directed to my person.
cian:
still and all, Fitter Stroke having “deliberately left it vague in the hopes that the phrase would resonate with some people's experiences” sure enough instantly recalled me back to my ‘catholic visionary’ glory days.
But why did it!?  Clearly because I associate the experience I related as somehow ‘divine’; suggesting perhaps subconsciously I hold some belief or hope these were real extant ‘out there’ deities or somesuch magical fluff...and how much do we all, or most of us, still harbour these dreams and hopes of magical mammys and daddys in the sky who'll save us!? Lots, I would say!  

Guess I’m just trying to look from Ian And’s point of view...is that anything like what you mean?

That's very insightful of you. Yes.

If you follow what Gotama taught in the discourses and accomplish that, you become your own savior. No need for mythical "mammys and daddys in the sky." That is what statements in the suttas like the following mean when the Buddha mentions: "The victors are those like me who have won to destruction of taints. I have vanquished all evil states, therefore, Upaka, I am a victor."

cian:
However, having said that... if so:
1 then its a GREAT question to ask, in that it acts as a sort of “inner fluff detector” to highlight and notice that one is doing this!
and
2 even if it is a mental impurity you’re quite accurately calling us on, it feels like the level of restriction you're implying might be fitting more to a hyper-strict monastic setting rather than this rather chill internet forum (the very fact of being online meaning we’re probably automatically swamped in outrageous amounts of mental impurity from the getgo).


1) Yes. Exactly.

2) Not really. Just telling it like it is by illustrating what can be achieved if one really wants to. There's no restriction being implied or asserted. Whatever part of that one can achieve I applaud. I'm only helping people become aware of what it takes, that's all. If one wants to achieve the most there is to be had from the practice, one must be willing to go the extra mile in order to achieve that in terms of being able to recognize what is helpful and wholesome and what may not be. Just by putting one foot in front of the other, one is taking steps toward that final idealized destiny, whether it be in this lifetime or another. The point being to be inspired enough to make the journey. emoticon

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 7:28 PM as a reply to Ian And.
This is supposedly a forum based on mastering the core teachings of the Buddha.

I suppose I could respond by quoting from the lengthy FAQ for this board which describes in detail what its purpose is, what topics or actions are appropriate or inappropriate - which your reply was in clear violation of - but I get the feeling it would largely be a waste of time, mine moreso than yours. Your response makes it clear you're either unwilling or incapable of accounting for your own actions.

I mean really, it's the title of a book's fault? I would have guessed you above such a cop-out, but I guess you really can't tell who you're communicating with over this thing, can you?

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/2/15 7:31 PM as a reply to cian.
Thanks for your feedback, cian and all. This was helpful.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/3/15 6:38 AM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:
2) Not really. Just telling it like it is by illustrating what can be achieved if one really wants to. There's no restriction being implied or asserted

Uh-huh. Fair enough.  I'm all for examining the fine details in things.  If we're up for it we can read our self-enslavement patterns into every single tiny thing we do.  A fine practice (double-meaning implied)...     ;)

What happened here in this thread, and what Fitter Stroke still seems to be in the throes of, was an assumption that your comments at the top...

Why would anyone encourage others in wrong view to hold onto useless mental constructs? That goes against the stream of the Dhamma that Gotama taught. 

Is the premise of this inquiry meant to liberate or to enslave the mind that buys into it?

...were urging for this conversation not to take place at all.  

What I, and I think the others too (correct me if i'm wrong), 'heard' from this was, "You (fitter stroke), by posting this question, are encouraging others to hold onto useless mental constructs and we all our enslaving our minds simply by engaging with the discussion at all!" (i also subjectively interpreted from it a subtle tone of superior moral highground, which can really get on people's goats) Hence the sudden flare up of argumentation against your comments.  
So thankyou for clarifying that you're not implying any restriction onto the forum - I see upon re-reading your comments that you never explicitly stated as much - thus, I merely assumed, and got carried away with my assumption.

However, it looks like several other people made a very similar assumption, so I suggest re-reading your above comment very honestly yourself and perhaps noticing how terrifically easily one might come to such a conclusion.  I personally find it highly untactfully worded.


metta to all




RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/3/15 8:13 AM as a reply to Ian And.
Ian And:
This is supposedly a forum based on mastering the core teachings of the Buddha.

(and again, further down)
This is supposedly a forum based on mastering the core teachings of the Buddha.

Are you sure about that?

Daniel Ingram wrote a book (or 2) on that topic, but that concept, even the word 'Buddha', is conspicuously absent on the otherwise extensively explicit home page of Dharma Overground.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/3/15 8:59 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
re: Fitter Stoke (6/1/15 10:40 AM)
"Curious to hear from anyone who has experienced a "divine presence" at the A&P."

re: Ian And (6/1/15 11:13 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.)
"How are you defining "divine presence"?
But over and above this term's definition, isn't that just another mental construct (concept) to be let go of?"


In another thread ("The Slacker's Guide to Stream-Entry"), we recently looked at Christian mystical practices, where is was brought up that Ayya Khema had studied writings of Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, and Jakob Boehme – all of which she considered to have come upon experiences equivalent to jhana, and even path & fruition. In a 1.5 hour talk (dharmaseed: http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/334/7613.html) she discusses, reads Teresa's descriptions of those experiences ("4 stages of the ascent of the soul") showing how they appear to line-up with the 4 jhana-s.Those Christian mystics used terminology much like 'divine presence', some sense of presence and union with Jesus / God. Apparently what they meant was the same (according to Ayya Khema) as what orthodox Theravada might call that state or capability of mind, grounded in the 4th jhana, which has access to (skill for) path and fruition moments.

A difficulty is the inherent tendency in Judeo-Christian traditions to center on a 'God' who (in many, not all, circumstances) behaves as a person. (And Carl Jung couldn't quite work around that difficulty, as seen in his (and Richard Wilhelm's) inability to fathom, for instance, the significance of "The Secret of the Golden Flower".) Buddhism doesn't have that problem (which is also evidenced in Thomas Cleary's corrective translation of the Golden Flower text).

So, terms like 'divine presence' have been, can be used to denote pragmatic experiences arguably comparable to experiences in Buddhist dhamma.

(Whether that's the case "at the A&P" is a different issue.)

All
words are verbal/mental constructs, used by the mind to symbolize experiences or mental derivatives, including: "the stream of the Dhamma that Gotama taught".

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/11/15 7:47 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Gordo,
The Non-duality model of Enlightenment that Daniel presents in MCTB

neither underestimates nor overestimates what is available in terms of chakra visualising or energy experiences, or pretty much any kind of experience or state of being at all

it is just a completely and utterly different kind of thing to talk about.  

A while ago I read an interview with some seemingly well respected yogi dude (sorry can't remember the source) who was asked what enlightenment is.  He replied that he has a permanent experience like a light switched on inside his head and this means he is enlightened!
emoticon this is nice, but very far from being a useful understanding of what enlightenment is.  

You could have just about any kind of special or banal experiences and still be either enlightened or unenlightened.

It's not about what you see, but how you see.   ... or who is seeing

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/11/15 8:50 AM as a reply to cian.
We can still learn enormously from each others' understandings.
And when there is a certain level of consensus around a particularly useful understanding

then whoa mama, step back, that's when human learning can really get cooking.

Perhaps THE most singularly useful nugget of understanding around what we here seem to be getting a good consensus understanding going on around what we're calling 'enlightenment' is that:

It is NOT about content.  

This is a MASSIVELY useful understanding.  If we all got this, then we can move on and have all kinds of fun having and talking about experiences of divine presences and on and on til the cows come home, and that'll be great!  
If we don't got this, then pretty much all our communication around this topic will be a vast field of nonsense, confusion and uselessness, because we will be talking about different things.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/11/15 10:29 AM as a reply to cian.
There are A&P events, these are lumped into one tagline here, but they are happening on different stages and places and the emotions they are covered with are different.
The visuals what shoots out of the head isn't the last crown opening, there comes the second one: And the thing there what comes avail, you can drag it to your body.
Some more things and then you start all over again but "better stronger faster". 

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/11/15 2:14 PM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
I haven't thought it through properly.

it all sounds too complicated when start to go into details, but it is just three channels.left, right and middle. Left and right channels are coming from a unseeable. Through cultivation you purify these channels and going through them one by one. Once your awareness is down you cultivate up, if awareness goes up then you cultivate down. Cultivation mind is emptiness, or that unseeable, name it how you like.

left and right could be also front and back channel when cultivating, your essence of awareness circulates in them - This type of cultivation is unlocked later. You help the essence down, loose consciousness, become aware again then again help the essence down repeat it till you realize something and you will be elevated to next level.

get the thing going and you will learn all things needed on the way. You need to become very basic. There is also a requierment without you won't reach there is selfdefeat, or total surrender of your inner demon, ego.

Even an ant knows currently more than you.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/12/15 6:28 AM as a reply to Banned For waht?.
I figure out how things are working. 

Tangible answer is that you need to figure out what is to be a perfect servant. One possible way is by serving someone long time till you get it what is to be a servant.  Second way is you are being punched so long till you give up completely.
Third way is you figure it out by observing, learning by similes and tales, myths etc.

At the end its just a feeling-being but is the key to futher stuff. Anyway its just what i do, and it is my block always were i get stuck longest time. Perhaps i assume too much that it is the block in others too.
No idea. I have thought a lot if i could somehow get pass it by other means, i haven't yet, after self-defeat i recover and learn self-love and acceptance and life is bright. To get to self-acceptance and then falling down again its hard to reach that point.

getting to the top i forget that i am a mere servant, discovering that is painful process to go through.

one example.
hmm practicing any practice but no progress, i give up, i just can't do it, i reflect on something like some guys practice 50 years whaat i never could do it, well at this emotional turmoil i give up and i reach whole new level. Its needed to put life into it otherwise neevr ever pain will arise, call it dispassion, or disgust.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/12/15 6:16 AM as a reply to cian.
Gordo . .:
Im not talking about a divine presence, i am talking about a phenomenonolical experience  (now there's a word ) that takes place when kundalini goes out through the crown. I am hitching a ride on this thread to possibly touch base with someone who has also experienced the chakras that are above us, and hear their take on it. Im not starting a new thread, im being economical as i don't think it's a common experience.
Meanwhile you've come along ranting am ramming something i already know. This is my time out.
Please get out of the way.

whups, sorry gordo. I'm just being pedantic about words I guess.  
'Pedantic' ... sometimes referred to as 'anal'  ; the opposite to where it sounds like your energy centres are currently lighting up!  ;)

Didn't mean to try and bring you down, man.  


As for the above the head chakras, I can't comment much, I've got all that buzzing around about the throat at the moment (again, maybe hence my over-obsession with words and the way people are communicating)  
 I do my sits ect, but dont really try and make anything happen. Is there a need to do anything. These channels are clearing and quickly. What practices did you follow?
Just letting it be sounds right on to me.  It does its own thing and knows exactly where to go.

RE: Experience of divine presence at A&P
Answer
6/12/15 9:38 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
Fitter Stoke:
Curious to hear from anyone who has experienced a "divine presence" at the A&P. What was the experience like at a bare sensate level? What were the circumstances surrounding it (what sort of practice, if any)? And had you already experienced stream-entry?
An experience of "divine presence" is exactly how I would describe my A&P moment.

On a bare sensate level: First, there was a clear instance of kundalini rising -- energy shot up from the base of my spine out the top of my skull, just this sudden rush of force. This was followed by the feeling of "ghost hands" reaching down on my from above, trying to lift me up out of my body, or at least gently inviting me to rise up out of my body. There was a feeling of floating, like I was being pulled between two opposing magnetic forces -- gravity on the one hand, God (for the sake of conceptual convenience) on the other. Not in a violent tug-of-war kind of way, but gentle and light.

There was plenty more to the experience than that, but that was the divine presence part of it.

The circumstances around it require a little bit of backstory: First, I'd describe myself as agnostic with Buddhist and Western Esoteric leanings, at best. Now my mother is a born again Christian who attends a Charismatic Episcopal Church. They kind of combine weird charismatic stuff with more streamlined liturgical and traditional church practices. People speak in tongues and get prophetic words in a controlled environment. Some of this stuff can get pretty convincing, even spooky, and I've wondered in the past about the connection between these "gifts of the Holy Spirit" and what the people hear at DhO would call the powers.

Anyway, one woman from my mother's church prophesies. As I understand it, she "recieves a word from God" and is compelled to tell it to the person it is meant for. It just happened, one morning, exactly a month after my twenty-third birthday, she recieved one for me, wrote it down in a letter, and sent it to me. I was still reading through MCTB at this point, as well as Alan Chapman's stuff, and had only recently found the Dharma Overground, so I was just starting to incorporate vipassana practice (with a bit of chaos magic attitude) into what had previously been a somewhat directionless Zen practice.

Anyway, skeptical though I was, the letter this woman gave me didn't sound explicitly Christian the way I was used to, but had an almost Zen or Advaitic flavor that I was more comfortable with. Which was surprising, because this woman didn't know about my dharmic inclinations. At some point in the letter the phrase "What is beyond words?" stood out, and it occured to me that that was sort of a koan. So I sat down for meditation, I concentrated for a bit, and then I asked myself the koan. And I realized the futility of it, because any kind of answer I could give would be self-negating -- the question, by its nature, could not be satisfied by any kind of verbal answer. So I tried a different approach and I asked God, "What is beyond words?" And then I just let go entirely. Didn't bother trying to figure it out, just waited for God to give me the answer. And that was the moment the above experience took place.

As of now, I am still pre-path, having not yet attained stream entry. If I had to guess, I'd say I'm probably still stuck in the Dissolution stage.

(For the record, I would still describe myself as basically agnostic, but I can still appreciate the experience of divine presence as just that: an experience, an interesting and somewhat anomalous phenomenon. Whether or not it is actually real is kind of a moot point, in my opinion.)