Message Boards Message Boards

The Middle Paths (2nd and 3rd)

Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months

Toggle
Deleting my posts for privacy.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
8/26/15 7:51 PM as a reply to Sandiego.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
8/26/15 9:09 PM as a reply to Sandiego.
Well good luck. I think it is doable.

It is nice you have a clear goal and determination.

I have two remarks.

1) More meditation practice, as in 20 hours a day, isn't always better.

If you make liberation your number 1 priority, and seems like you have, your mind will always be trying to solve the puzzle, even off the cushion. 

Speaking from personal experience, I made really fast progress formally meditating for just a hour or two daily. But the rest of the time I would be thinking about philosophy, reading stuff related to this, generally just being in awe of expereince, examining blindspots in my subjective experience, posting on DhO etc.

I was obsessed with insight, not with meditaiton. Meditation is a way of turning your mind away form the usual mental patterns so that insight leading to liberation can be had.

2) For faster progress... Learn how to call up fruitions.

Here is a thread about calling up frutions I posted after 1st path. Note: I don't think the instructions posted on this thread are the best.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2408532

Here is a better way to call up frutions from my journal...
Basically all the effort I was making to call up fruitions was misguided and stupid. And a lot of the dips that were happening were not actually cessations just state shifts.

Here's what really works... 

1) Knowing it is a sort of subconscious thing that my mind already knows how to do.
2) Will for the Frution
3) Dispassionately sit back and watch it do its thing. Make no effort whatsoever.

In hindsight the partial success I was having was because all the effort I was making was just giving me false state shifts and then the frutions just happened on their own in the parts.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
8/28/15 12:30 PM as a reply to Sandiego.
I think the reason I started this thread is to get some encouragement from Arahants about me shooting for 4th path in 3 months from 1st path, and also to get some advice that I should bear in mind. I am familar with the progress cycles - I know that I have to start from Mind and Body and go all the way to Equanimity and then hit the next path and repeat this cycle until I get to 4th path. I also know that I shouldn't take the conceptual framework of 'cycles' seriously since I might hit a previous path and mistakenly think I've hit the next path/get frustrated that I am not progressing. 


Are you aware of your motivation to attempt this? What if the assumption behind it -- that you are in control of a process that leads to a deterministic result -- isn't correct?

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
8/31/15 1:08 AM as a reply to Sandiego.
Well, here are my thoughts, which are based on not nearly enough information to really give precise advice, but here goes:

1) About 98% of people who email me who think they got stream entry, on further examination and with time and further investigation, actually crossed the A&P. How this applies to you, I have no idea, but it is worth keeping in mind.
2) Assuming you did get stream entry, and assuming you were going on a personal retreat of 3 months: be careful. You are still pretty new at this. The potential to get into trouble is real. Have someone who knows you and who can talk with you and who knows the path of insight very well help you.
3) Practicing 20 hours a day solo is asking for trouble. There are a few who can do that and have no problems. However, some substantial portion of people will get into trouble. You want to avoid that sort of trouble. Consider backing it down to something more moderate, like 12-14 hours: my strong advice. It may still be enough to make good progress but the flip-out potential is moderately less, though certianly not zero.
4) Realize that this moment is it. Arahatship is many things, but one of them is the radical and total embracing as any and every moment as the final answer to the question. It is immediate. It is right here, right now, full-time. Gunning for arahatship makes some sense from a relative, temporal point of view, a developmental point of view, yet, still, the thing itself is about the opposite of that, the every-moment-is-the-only-moment perspective. Thus, somehow you are going to have to let every moment be the answer or the subtle or gross aspects of future/attainment mind are likely to cause substantial complexity.
5) Are you sure you can't possibly go on retreat somewhere with someone? These days, once you get to some of the better Asian centers, you can stay long periods on very little money. I would highly recommend something like that for a zillion reasons.

While I am a big fan of hardcore practice and intensive effort, I also recognize the dangers and downsides and want to convey something that promotes balance and a sound, sane plan rather than something that is more likely to cause difficulties.

Helpful?

Daniel

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
9/19/15 9:52 PM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Speaking from personal experience, I made really fast progress formally meditating for just a hour or two daily. But the rest of the time I would be thinking about philosophy, reading stuff related to this, generally just being in awe of expereince, examining blindspots in my subjective experience, posting on DhO etc.

I was obsessed with insight, not with meditaiton. Meditation is a way of turning your mind away form the usual mental patterns so that insight leading to liberation can be had.

Thank you for the great advice D Z
I've never heard it expressed this way, that way of focusing more on insight over tranquility in practice 
For the time that you were not meditating or sleeping (most of your waking hours it sounds like) were you in the moment, in the body and mind etc? I mean, were you generally aware of your own moods, thoughts and sensate experience in real time moment-to-moment throughout the day?
I don't know anything about your practice, so I apologize if this is a dumb or obvious question 

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
9/20/15 11:20 PM as a reply to Daniel - san.
Daniel - san:
(D Z) Dhru Val:
Speaking from personal experience, I made really fast progress formally meditating for just a hour or two daily. But the rest of the time I would be thinking about philosophy, reading stuff related to this, generally just being in awe of expereince, examining blindspots in my subjective experience, posting on DhO etc.

I was obsessed with insight, not with meditaiton. Meditation is a way of turning your mind away form the usual mental patterns so that insight leading to liberation can be had.

Thank you for the great advice D Z
I've never heard it expressed this way, that way of focusing more on insight over tranquility in practice 
For the time that you were not meditating or sleeping (most of your waking hours it sounds like) were you in the moment, in the body and mind etc? I mean, were you generally aware of your own moods, thoughts and sensate experience in real time moment-to-moment throughout the day?
I don't know anything about your practice, so I apologize if this is a dumb or obvious question 

I didn't really do much present moment awareness.

I did relentless self-inquiry, inquiry into the nature of expereince, talking to people about 3Cs etc.

For eg. my whole life I had unconsiously assumed that a set of sensations were 'me' or 'my free will' etc.

Now I had gained an intellectual understading that this was not the case. But there was a gap between the experential reality and my intellectual understanding. 

So for eg. I know there is not 'free will' yet I have sense of 'free will'. What sensations in my experience are correlated with the sense of free will. Similar things can be done with an emotion like fear etc.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
9/21/15 10:49 AM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
The one thing I'd like to add to everything here is that path attainments can take time to settle in. There's a distinct flavor to each baseline shift, and there's something to be said for letting each level unfold in its own good time. I would get to know my "new" mind each time, and then the next would happen on its own; in fact, I was almost disappointed when 2nd path hit because I thought I wasn't quite ready to go there. In any case, keep us updated on how things go.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
10/18/15 5:29 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Krishna Balachandran:

... I spent about 7 days doing concentration meditation (not continuously though, 4 days concentration followed by 3 days insight, then again 3 days concentration, then the remaining days insight).

... insight meditation for 3 days, then again did concentration for another 3 days, since doing insight meditation helped to cultivate/generate a lot of energy, and this made it possible for me to do concentration meditation again with ease....


(Not coming from an Arahant, nor 3rd path hitter, this may be out of place.)

How can one do just insight for days without a concentrated mind? 

How can one do just concentration for days without experiencing insight?

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
10/18/15 9:55 AM as a reply to CJMacie.
Chris J Macie:
Krishna Balachandran:

... I spent about 7 days doing concentration meditation (not continuously though, 4 days concentration followed by 3 days insight, then again 3 days concentration, then the remaining days insight).

... insight meditation for 3 days, then again did concentration for another 3 days, since doing insight meditation helped to cultivate/generate a lot of energy, and this made it possible for me to do concentration meditation again with ease....


(Not coming from an Arahant, nor 3rd path hitter, this may be out of place.)

How can one do just insight for days without a concentrated mind? 

How can one do just concentration for days without experiencing insight?
I think sometimes we talk about concentration but think about absorbtions. And we sometimes limit the meaning of 'insight' to three characteristics only. There is no need for insight into 3 characteristics to do absorbtions practice. We need insight into "craving-dukha" system (which allowes us to be equanimous) to do the absorbtion pracice. I think this is different kind of insight. I call it insight into morality. Concentration + insight into morality = jhana. Concentration + insight into morality + insight into 3 characteristics = nibbana.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
11/4/15 2:16 AM as a reply to Sandiego.
You mention an increased width of perspective: anything else?

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
12/7/15 9:26 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
well done. remarkable effort. good luck.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
12/8/15 1:32 PM as a reply to Sandiego.
Nice.

RE: Aiming for 4th Path from 1st Path in 3 months
Answer
12/8/15 3:23 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
If this is not helfpul, just ignore it.

My guess would be that the same basic territory of mind is traversed by all meditative traditions.  There are obvious variations relating to technique, doctrine and expectation.  But if you awoke kundalini that had a more lasting effect than the a&p does, and if this occured during Review phase, the reason it lasted was because it was during the honeymoon period (aka Review), in which one's energy is supercharged.

I believe that the reason yoga is known for producing shakti, strong kundalini, and other such effects, is two-fold:
a) It involves the development of one-pointed concentration more so than vipassana.
b) It frequently involves energetic interaction with outside sources, such as shaktipat from a teacher, or diety worship using external objects which have a charge of their own, or simply because one is purprosefully working with, and aware of, the action in one's chakras.