Baby rigpa and beyond

A P, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 11:00 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 10:39 AM

Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 4 Join Date: 12/21/15 Recent Posts
I have two purposes for this thread. First is to try and help clarify some confusion around the Tibetan term "rigpa," and the second is to ask for input on others' experiences.

I've been practicing Mahamudra & Dzogchen under various masters for some years. In TB (and Buddhism in general) it's frowned upon to talk too much about experiences, so I'm glad I have a place like this to post.

Okay, first: in Mahamudra there's something called the Four Yogas, and they roughly correspond to the Dzogchen semde four naljors. They use different terminology, but here I want to provide a rough mapping.

First, some Mahamudra:
Now, to what degree must vipashyana have arisen to be considered true vipashyana? The unmistaken vipashyana that has directly realized the truth of dharmata comes only at the time of the greater level of the yoga of simplicity. In our case, however, we are only concerned with the vipashyana that arises in the beginner’s mind. For instance, the first moon of the month does not have the same function as the full moon, yet it is still conventionally considered to be the moon. Therefore here we are concerned with the vipashyana that includes one’s mind and the thoughts and phenomena arising from its radiance, as discussed earlier. All phenomena of subject and object are unoriginated, nonabiding, and unceasing. To know this crucial point and to have the experience and conviction born from deep within that they are devoid of true essence or nature is what, at this point, should be defined as vipashyana. It may happen that, for some time, vipashyana does not arise to such a degree. However, as followers of the practice lineage, we acknowledge the following beginner’s vipashyana. The essence of one’s mind is an unidentifiable void; it is the primordial cognizance that has not been fabricated. In the mind that is aware of itself and lucid by itself, these two, void and cognizance, are inseparable. To gain the experience that the mind has ascertained that it is so is a beginner’s vipashyana. By sustaining just that much at the beginning, we are confident that unmistaken vipashyana will gradually arise.

And now the rough equivalent in Dzogchen (Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche):
The moment we recognize undivided empty cognizance, that is rigpa itself. But it is not fully grown -- it is not an adult state of rigpa -- it's baby rigpa. The level of recognition we are at now is called baby rigpa.

In many Dzogchen texts, rigpa is described as a profound realization that includes the recognition of complete nonduality. If one's first glimpse isn't that deep, one might be afraid that one hasn't recognized at all. What's not made clear* is that this rangjung rigpa might only come after much practice of baby rigpa (or that "baby rigpa" qualifies at all). Tsoknyi Rinpoche:
It might be a little too early to call it the rigpa of the Great Perfection. But as this state gets more clarified -- you could say more refined -- and becomes the authentic state of rigpa according to Dzogchen teachings, then at that point it will deserve its name. On the other hand, it is also possible that someone might recognize the state of rigpa from the very beginning.
...

In the beginning, just let it be whatever it is, however it is; just let whatever is known be that, without hope and fear. We call this continuity, however brief it might be, Baby Rigpa. … In the same way, whatever is initially seen as being the view is exactly what you allow to continue.
...
Dzogchen meditation is to sustain the continuity. It is to give Baby Rigpa breathing space. Up till now, he has been suffocating.
In this way, we can draw a rough parallel between beginner / full vipashyana, and baby / rangjung rigpa. You practice the first (with nonmeditation) to eventually realize the second (unless you're one of the ones who recognizes from the very beginning).

In either case, we might say that the beginning of practice starts with the clear recognition of the inseparable emptiness and primordial cognizance of mind.

Part 2 in next post.

* It has occurred to me that this might be skillful means, like Kenneth's "fake it til you make it."
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 10:50 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 10:50 AM

RE: Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Cool stuff dude.  I'm at the very tip of some Mahamudra explorations right now.  I'd love to chat on the side!
A P, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 10:59 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 10:58 AM

RE: Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 4 Join Date: 12/21/15 Recent Posts
Okay, part 2: some questions.

1) I've recognized "baby rigpa" for as long as I can remember. In the gap between thoughts, it's been obvious that there's a vibrant lucid shining presence, and that it doesn't go anywhere even when I'm thinking. I've always thought that everybody recognizes this, but apparently this isn't so. In the opinion of you yogis, is it something hard to recognize? Has anyone here not? (I wouldn't dare ask this question on other forums, but people here seem blunt, and I like that).

2) Does this correspond to anything in the developmental maps? I know there's been tons of discussions on this question regarding rigpa in general, but perhaps "baby rigpa" is easier to get a handle on. In some ways, what I recognized for all those years might be mapped to "the witness." Using Greg Goode's words, I suppose the witness gets "thinned out" with practice (as more stuff is seen to be on the side of the witnessed rather than the witness). I think this corresponds roughly to what Tsoknyi Rinpoche says here:
This short moment of recognizing can surely be called mind essence. You can also name it natural mind or ordinary mind, although natural mind is better in this case. It might be a little too early to call it the rigpa of the Great Perfection. But as this state gets more clarified -- you could say more refined -- and becomes the authentic state of rigpa according to Dzogchen teachings, then at that point it will deserve its name.
...
The actuality of this becomes simpler. The "dirt in the soup" begins to clear, which is exactly what should happen. At a certain point, our experience really deserves the name rangjung rigpa, self-existing awareness. Before that point, though, it is somewhat hidden from oneself, like a natural secret.
I know I had more questions. Maybe I'll remember them later.

One interesting thing is that although I've always recognized this to some degree, I've experienced significant depression (now gone, I think for good) and anxiety over the years. On one hand, I see that progress may come from further disidentifying from the personality aspect. On the other hand, I think my life actually needs more joy and vibrance to counterbalance the aloofness that's been present. Maybe others have walked this line....
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 11:21 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 11:21 AM

RE: Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Does this correspond to anything in the developmental maps? I know there's been tons of discussions on this question regarding rigpa in general, but perhaps "baby rigpa" is easier to get a handle on.


I just think one would cycle through the nanas via awareness-based practice in the same way that they would via dry vipassana (although the former would probably involve less "gross" or obvious cycling).  In fact, Reggie Ray seems to talk indirectly about the progress of insight in the audio set I'm listening to now on Mahamudra.  I would bet that "baby rigpa" could appear in at least a couple different places, including 3 C'S (with the clicking into of the 1st jhana), A&P, or anywhere within EQ.  So I would posit the stages of the stabilization of rigpa as indirectly correleted with the progress of insight.  As another interesting aside, Sam Harris has a cool conversation recording with Joseph Goldstein on his blog... Harris tries to argue that Dzogchen>Vipassana, but Goldstein insists that at the highest level, Vipassana is basically the same thing as Dzogchen.  I don't know...
neko, modified 8 Years ago at 12/22/15 1:02 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/22/15 12:57 AM

RE: Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 762 Join Date: 11/26/14 Recent Posts
1) I could definitely *not* see rigpa until it was pointed out to me in Reggie Ray's CDs. Even then, I could only see it with effort and not continuously and unreliabily. In my dho-sangha, some claim to see it more or less continuously, some definitely see something but they are unsure if it is rigpa, some do not see it at all.

2) I don't think there are strict map correspondences between the four paths of Theravada and the four Yogas of Mahamudra. Although MCTB does not use the term "rigpa" explicitly, Dan's description of an MCTB 3rd pather's fixation on seeing luminosity in real time at all times points to a certain Mahamudra-like development brought about by Theravada work. If I understand correctly Dam might have changed his views a bit on this and he's more into the idea of multiple axes of development now, if I understand correctly. Hopefully he'll feel like chiming in, or we'll have to wait for MCTB2.

Personally, I just recently had what looked like an anatta-gate fruition (I only had had dukkha and anicca fruitions up to that point) that seems to have unlocked the ability to see luminosity, centrelessness, emptiness more easily and spontaneously than before. I will need more time to observe and self-diagnose but I thought this experience of mine might further the discussion a bit.
A P, modified 8 Years ago at 12/23/15 7:21 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/23/15 7:21 AM

RE: Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 4 Join Date: 12/21/15 Recent Posts
neko:
1) I could definitely *not* see rigpa until it was pointed out to me in Reggie Ray's CDs. Even then, I could only see it with effort and not continuously and unreliabily. In my dho-sangha, some claim to see it more or less continuously, some definitely see something but they are unsure if it is rigpa, some do not see it at all.
Interesting, thanks! Were you able to notice gaps between thoughts before recognition? If so, what seemed to be "happening" in those gaps before? How would you describe the change now?

Tibetan sources typically describe the experience "before" as a dull or inert, blank or amorphous state. I wouldn't have described my samadhi like that, and I doubt many others would either.
2) I don't think there are strict map correspondences between the four paths of Theravada and the four Yogas of Mahamudra. Although MCTB does not use the term "rigpa" explicitly, Dan's description of an MCTB 3rd pather's fixation on seeing luminosity in real time at all times points to a certain Mahamudra-like development brought about by Theravada work. If I understand correctly Dam might have changed his views a bit on this and he's more into the idea of multiple axes of development now, if I understand correctly. Hopefully he'll feel like chiming in, or we'll have to wait for MCTB2.

Personally, I just recently had what looked like an anatta-gate fruition (I only had had dukkha and anicca fruitions up to that point) that seems to have unlocked the ability to see luminosity, centrelessness, emptiness more easily and spontaneously than before. I will need more time to observe and self-diagnose but I thought this experience of mine might further the discussion a bit.
Cool, thanks. This whole "developmental" world is still new to me. I find myself with seemingly very little ability (and patience, perhaps as a result) in that space.
A P, modified 8 Years ago at 12/23/15 7:21 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/23/15 7:21 AM

RE: Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 4 Join Date: 12/21/15 Recent Posts
Would be happy to chat (though I'm not sure I have much to offer!).
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Eric B, modified 8 Years ago at 12/23/15 9:52 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/23/15 9:52 AM

RE: Baby rigpa and beyond

Posts: 187 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
There is a  "Dzogchen Discussion" group on Facebook that you might find useful.

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