Open Heart Bhumi Model - Discussion
Kim Katami:
Baba and Daniel Ingram in discussion: Open Heart Bhumi Model etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkoaVh6q4fE&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkoaVh6q4fE&feature=youtu.be
Assuming you have Daniel's permission to publish this dialogue, I think it deserves its own thread
Kim Katami:
I suppose very few here at DhO have actually even tried this bhumi model. This is my assumption because none other than Daniel from this forum have messaged me or given me any feedback here. It's fine with me that people discuss it but it will never make sense to you if you never try it out and see for yourself. It simply never will. So if this discussion is purely theory-based, I don't have interest in it. Practice-based discussion on the other hand is entirely different thing. That I'd love to do.
I agree that theory-based discussion on this matter is of no interest. For what it's worth, I've been interested in this and have actually tried to do this bhumi reading myself. I used the three zen masters you have on your blog, the ones that don't have any rating yet. I found that trying to rate people with numbers I was always unsure how much of my evaluation was affected by the given number and what part of it was genuine. Ofcourse it was useful to first look at the faces and the numbers, but I'm not skilled enough to verbalize what I saw, apart from some very crude differences which might just as well be due to facial features and not bhumis.
The biggest tip for me (in addition to the instructions on your blog) was when you said in the discussion with Daniel that it takes time to get the feeling of the bhumi. I had thought that you simply look and see it somehow immediately. But inspired by this comment I really took the time to look at the pictures and after some time (maybe 5 to10 minutes?) I somehow could feel that there was a specific number coming to mind.
This is my first time trying, but it will definately be interesting to find out what the answer will be according to you.
Jehanne S Peacock:
I agree that theory-based discussion on this matter is of no interest. For what it's worth, I've been interested in this and have actually tried to do this bhumi reading myself. I used the three zen masters you have on your blog, the ones that don't have any rating yet. I found that trying to rate people with numbers I was always unsure how much of my evaluation was affected by the given number and what part of it was genuine. Ofcourse it was useful to first look at the faces and the numbers, but I'm not skilled enough to verbalize what I saw, apart from some very crude differences which might just as well be due to facial features and not bhumis.
The biggest tip for me (in addition to the instructions on your blog) was when you said in the discussion with Daniel that it takes time to get the feeling of the bhumi. I had thought that you simply look and see it somehow immediately. But inspired by this comment I really took the time to look at the pictures and after some time (maybe 5 to10 minutes?) I somehow could feel that there was a specific number coming to mind.
This is my first time trying, but it will definately be interesting to find out what the answer will be according to you.
- The person concerned might momentarily be in a high energy state, like after a chanting session, deep meditation or tantric initiation. This does not affect the bhumi. I haven't yet published the Theravada Buddhist-episode but the elder ajahns there are perfect example of this. However they just emulate the Three Jewels which energetically speaking deals with the highest centers above the head, that is, the mahasiddha bhumis, 11-13.
- The person might be sick or lack vitality. This neither affects the bhumi.
- Persons mind might be busy and because of many thoughts the person might appear messy. This neither affects the bhumi.
WHen I said that "it takes time to get the feeling of the bhumi" I meant both in an immediate session (especially for a beginner) and in the long run when learning the system in general. When one gets skilled, that is have good attention skills and silent mind without a chatter, one can see the bhumi pretty quickly, sometimes "immediately".
Do you mean you get actual numbers appearing in your mind? If you know well where the bhumis are in the head and above it, then sure it might come in as a number. But if you don't know the locations, then these numbers might be only imagination.
The key is to let the body, mind and awareness of the person concerned show it to you, your body, mind and awareness. Don't try too much. Rather, allow the mouse come to you
By mouse I mean the mind state.
Kim Katami:
Do you mean you get actual numbers appearing in your mind? If you know well where the bhumis are in the head and above it, then sure it might come in as a number. But if you don't know the locations, then these numbers might be only imagination.
The key is to let the body, mind and awareness of the person concerned show it to you, your body, mind and awareness. Don't try too much. Rather, allow the mouse come to you
By mouse I mean the mind state.Yeah, I don't think I was trying too hard. My approach was more like gently and curiously look at the thing and let whatever to reveal itself. I had very little expectations, mainly curiosity. I was actually a bit surprised that some answers came to me, as I expected to not really be able to say anything. Now I'm rather eager to do the comparison of my guesses to your evaluation. Although I realize that even if I get it completely wrong the first time doesn't mean I'm necessarily doing it wrong, I just need some practice...
To add some detail to my "method": I was trying to concentrate on each of the bhumis at their locations and gently inquire whether maybe this bhumi was "open" or not, whatever that means ( as I really don't know any of this stuff). After some time there became this feeling that it was this certain bhumi that was open, and not one above it. So it wasn't like there was a number 5 for example, appering in my mind, but more like certain feeling that imagining the person to be in a certain bhumi felt more right than otherwise. Some pictures were easier than others, that is, the answer came quicker. I will also emphasize that I do not know this chakra system at all. I was sometimes actually measuring with by fingers where the 3rd chakra would be located, and then trying to feel whether that was somehow open or not.
Oh, and since you mentioned that the bhumis above 6 are harder to get than the lower ones, I only considered the possibility that these people are between 1-6 and wen't from there. This is not to say anything about the people in the pictures, I simply did it to make matters easy to myself.
.
Kim Katami:
I'm sure this thread has been amusing... Don't know whether to laugh or cry, ha.
I know, right?
Kim Katami:
Good that you mention the "hands on" perspective. This is one of my favourite topics. I've also practiced martial arts, both soft and hard, since I was a kid, during the time span of 30 years. I've also done shiatsu-massage professionally. Whenever possible I like to demonstrate things physically through touch or show how I meditate, concentrate, chant, create intention or am attentive or whatever topic concerned so that people who attend can see or feel an example.
Full contact fighting is of course one thing. There's no room for subtle things there. But soft martial arts have a lot to offer for spiritual practitioners. I mean there's a lot in aikido, ki-aikido, aiki, yiquan, tai chi, push hands and so on that could greatly benefit meditators by making it physically perceivable. This could include things such as energy centers and claims of spiritual attainments which gentlemen are doubtful about. These things can be studied and demonstrated through touch. I've done such sessions with martial art professionals and experienced amateurs for several years, in Japan and Europe. Some of them are very skilled, high ranks in internal martial arts. But it has to be said that I haven't met but a couple of martial artists who really understood nondual mind and awareness in relation to their art and meditation.
I'm not talking about full contact fighting, more so the internal martial arts. Great that you have 30 years, but until we touch hands, it's all just talk (from me too, fwiw; I'm just as full of sh*t words on a message board till then).
Kim Katami:
These people are really rare. My teacher, Terayama Sensei, who I mentioned earlier was one of them. So was Sunadomari Kanshu Sensei who has a book and video out. And there are some others. Anyway.
This is mainly off topic but wanted to pitch in.
Curious... since there's been mention of spirit gurus and the like, why not ask O Sensei or some other famous teacher to show you the real deal aikido, tai ji, yi quan, ba gua, <pick your practice> and then go show it to someone/try it out. Again, not talking about full contact fighting, but trying out some high level push hands, aiki practice, or what not. As one of my teachers likes to say, "Understand? Now, show me!"
Small Steps:
I'm not talking about full contact fighting, more so the internal martial arts. Great that you have 30 years, but until we touch hands, it's all just talk (from me too, fwiw; I'm just as full of sh*t words on a message board till then).
Kim Katami:
These people are really rare. My teacher, Terayama Sensei, who I mentioned earlier was one of them. So was Sunadomari Kanshu Sensei who has a book and video out. And there are some others. Anyway.
This is mainly off topic but wanted to pitch in.
Curious... since there's been mention of spirit gurus and the like, why not ask O-Sensei or some other famous teacher to show you the real deal aikido, tai ji, yi quan, ba gua, <pick your practice> and then go show it to someone/try it out. Again, not talking about full contact fighting, but trying out some high level push hands, aiki practice, or what not. As one of my teachers likes to say, "Understand? Now, show me!"
But it's like you say, until we touch hands.
One thing that I keep hearing from people who have done some theravada, zen or gradual vajrayana (like ngondro/preliminary practices) training is that eventually they get tired, bored and demotivated of all that "doing" caused by repetitive aim to remain concentrated (cultivation of intention). People just wish to get their heads straight (in nondualistic sense) but then they are told to do this and that, persevere the training, often with too little information of the goal. It's dualism within nondualist frame. In pragmatic dharma scene there is no mushroom factor, which is wonderful, but still as I said above, I feel that the gradual bodybuilding of the concentration muscle is sort of a mis-understanding.
Padmasambhava's quote:
"At the end of kaliyuga,
dzogchen will burgeon and flourish
while the lower vehicles will wane".
Hooray!
Padmasambhava's quote:
"At the end of kaliyuga,
dzogchen will burgeon and flourish
while the lower vehicles will wane".
Hooray!
Kim, I deleted that post because it was unnecessarily abrasive, is this a secret code ? (Marty G. 10. dan black keypad) could you shed some light on this? 
Anyway I thought it may be interesting to others to write it again in a more friendly manner. Looking at the man you mentioned in this video, his manner, his voice ( setting aside prejudice) using my own intuitive discriminative faculty, (which I think we all have or at least the potential to develop) "he ain't no mahasiddha" (except in his own mind perhaps) not by any stretch.
He is in my view what we call a 'parlour mystic' a famous one was[url=] Lobsang Rampa ( exposed as a benign, perhaps well meaning fraud) who wrote a book called The Third Eye. When I read this book as a boy I was wonder-struck, it seemed to suggest that the mysterious was very tangible and I was moved to investigate further. In fact in the wiki link prior, one man became a Tibetan researcher based on that books influence on him.
So these characters may be very useful to beginners. Most seekers would have come across these types at some stage. They tend to associate with men and women and places of perceived spiritual power or status and add that experience, contact, retreat etc to their C.V ( so to speak). These days I tend to be less tolerant of them but it should be noted that they may be useful to some.
Edit ( more info)
Here is Osho's view on Rampa and (Osho himself, a mixed bag, Buddha/Deluded?) regardless his influence is huge and very popular at present with Indian youth (and worldwide). Carlos Castaneda’s series, on fictional shamans such as Don Juan is still a great read and packed with wisdom and creative possibilities gleaned from a subtle relationship with living entities and forces that surround them .Osho, made an insightful comment on these two writers ( below)
Anyway I thought it may be interesting to others to write it again in a more friendly manner. Looking at the man you mentioned in this video, his manner, his voice ( setting aside prejudice) using my own intuitive discriminative faculty, (which I think we all have or at least the potential to develop) "he ain't no mahasiddha" (except in his own mind perhaps) not by any stretch.
He is in my view what we call a 'parlour mystic' a famous one was[url=] Lobsang Rampa ( exposed as a benign, perhaps well meaning fraud) who wrote a book called The Third Eye. When I read this book as a boy I was wonder-struck, it seemed to suggest that the mysterious was very tangible and I was moved to investigate further. In fact in the wiki link prior, one man became a Tibetan researcher based on that books influence on him.
So these characters may be very useful to beginners. Most seekers would have come across these types at some stage. They tend to associate with men and women and places of perceived spiritual power or status and add that experience, contact, retreat etc to their C.V ( so to speak). These days I tend to be less tolerant of them but it should be noted that they may be useful to some.
Edit ( more info)
Here is Osho's view on Rampa and (Osho himself, a mixed bag, Buddha/Deluded?) regardless his influence is huge and very popular at present with Indian youth (and worldwide). Carlos Castaneda’s series, on fictional shamans such as Don Juan is still a great read and packed with wisdom and creative possibilities gleaned from a subtle relationship with living entities and forces that surround them .Osho, made an insightful comment on these two writers ( below)
There are third-rate spiritual fictions and first-rate ones: if you want third-rate, then read Lobsang Rampa; if you want first-rate, then read Carlos Castaneda. He is a great master of fiction. But I say ninety-nine per cent fiction. One per cent of truth is there, hidden here and there; you will have to find it. It is good even to read it as fiction. Don't bother about Rampa's fiction, because it is rubbish created by a mediocre mind -- and of course created for mediocre minds. But Carlos Castaneda is worth reading. When I say fiction I don't mean don't read him, I mean read him more carefully, because one per cent of truth is there. You will have to read it very carefully, but don't swallow it completely because it is ninety-nine per cent fiction. (The white lotus)
Marty G:
Kim, I deleted that post because it was unnecessarily abrasive, is this a secret code ? (Marty G. 10. dan black keypad) could you shed some light on this?
Oh sorry, I meant Sid and his googling skills. Dan-rating is used in Japanese martial arts, different degrees of black belts. 10. dan is the highest. Same in keypads. A joke.
bernd the broter:
Kim Katami:
The episodes that concerned teachers of other schools than Open Heart have been removed.
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2016/02/stages-of-spiritual-attainment.html
http://openheartopenheart.blogspot.fi/2016/02/stages-of-spiritual-attainment.html
I've started to feel for a while that (at last!) I'm done with analysing the stuff (methods and techniques) and states (bhumis) of others/other traditions. I've done it a lot. Yeah, it's a wonderful tool and it works but I've felt less and less interest in mapping others. I want to focus on working with my friends/students from now on.
Yes, I know that "this is probably the most interesting and most important part" of OHBM. And yet at the same time, with others than the sangha members, I am not seeing much interest towards it. Fine with me but can't help thinking whether people actually wish to remain ignorant of such matters instead of getting the necessary skills down.
Plus, there is always the factor that "Who does this guy think he is mapping such great saints!?". Doesn't bother me but maybe it's better for people to remain as they are and think as they do. I don't wish to be a contributing factor for anyones confusion in anyway.
But yeah, at OH sangha, we still use it