For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 12:31 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/20/16 11:21 PM

For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Hello all,

As mindfool noted recently[1], there isn't much discussion on this board about actualism anymore. As Noah pointed out in that same thread[2], there is a discussion group currently set up for discussing actualism and the actualism method. The group is quite active, with Richard even posting there occasionally (see 2015, 2016 archives).

To obviate someone having to post the links each time someone asks, I've decided to make a sticky with links to that group for ease of reference.

Please note, however, that the discussion group is *not* a general-purpose discussion group. From the group's description:
This group is for engaged discussion amongst anyone sincerely seeking to enjoy and appreciate each moment of being alive, and thereby to free themselves from the human condition, by being as happy and harmless and as in alignment to what is actual as possible, as amply described on the Actual Freedom Trust website. The site is the best written guide as to what is actual, and members are asked to learn and use the terminology as best they can, to facilitate sensible discussion.

This group is moderated to create a place where those well-intentioned folks in alignment to and/or open to what is actual can discuss without having to constantly deal with those who are ill-intentioned or opposed to what is actual. [...] [link]

Note in particular that the group is for "folks in alignment to and/or open to what is actual", not those who are "opposed to what is actual". In short, if you are interested and open to what is on offer then you are welcome to participate, but if you have already made up your mind that actualism isn't for you, or that it's another form of spirituality or any of the other frequently flogged misconceptions or commonly raised objections, then you need not inquire within. If that's the case, this DhO discussion board is a place where you can continue those discussions/debates about actualism with any interested parties.

*

Without further ado, here is the link to the discussion group:You may also be interested in the Gitter chat and the discussion group's companion wiki:
Cheers,
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem

==========
[1]
mindfool:
P.S. Can someone explain why noone has been posting in the actualism inspired thread recently? :/ [link]

[2]
Noah:
If you wanted to practice the actualism method, I reccomend joining this discussion group. [link]
mark harris, modified 4 Years ago at 7/3/19 3:22 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 7/3/19 3:22 AM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 3 Join Date: 7/3/19 Recent Posts
Thank you very much indeed.
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Nik, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 9:02 AM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 9:02 AM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 55 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
I think that yahoo link is dead.

I found another forum here https://discuss.actualism.online/
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Pawel K, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 10:19 AM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 10:19 AM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 1166 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
I don't think content promoting any -isms other than pragmatism fits DhO rules.
To me this sounds similar, still better because he is the worst but still similar, to certain "Kim" and his sect.

Personally I would like to see DhO move away from any dogmatism and this "you have issue with..." as first sentence in any dharma book which only causes people to being led by the carrot on a stick (as some liberation, 4th path, AF, awakening, THIS, whatever) to start subconsciously induce the issue, then get invested in the topic to then not being able to admit they don't really know anything more afterwards than they knew before and have little if any skills.

I mean we can do better within dharma as its woefully misrepresented. Actualism from what I read is just rewrite of dharma with emphasis put on certain sentences. Its literary work, art of sorts to use such words to elicit certain feelings and I actually admire that but overall as way to liberation... the only way to liberation is not thinking there is any liberation and improving oneself by studying oneself and improving what feels like could use improving by working directly with what needs improving and not through something I call "keys methods" as if there was some lock which one needed keys to unlock to then not suffer and have like some people put it "complete knowledge of mind" not knowing single thing that wasn't written in some book which also didn't explain anything and put bunch of ambiguous nonsense for people to experience whatever and then think they realized something important.

The lock is very simple: get down to Earth and stop magical thinking about these things. Then no keys will be needed and no specific practices will be needed because what needs to be practiced everyone knows - people just choose to ignore own intuition because they see other people vouching for something else. This is, these communities which mislead people already outside "pragmatic" and actually, often through pure ignorance (at least here on DhO - otherwise often through ill will) "ill intentioned"!

What is "actual" is even on DhO which is most open community regarding meditation one cannot actually have discussion about anything because everyone is weak-minded enough to need approval from their tradition of choice regarding what they can do and cannot do or think about. Now for some people having some "Richard" and other BS figures to tell them what they should think might feel like a good deal. No need to think for oneself. But to me this feels disgusting. Simply, disgusting.

ps. Just to clarity. This post is well intentioned. I am very well intentioned guy overall.
In fact I am so well intentioned I always check for anything about what I am about to post to not sound like anything anyone who might misunderstand it and take in wrong direction. Other than maybe thinking something is wrong with me. Leading others to suffering is not my intention. Saying to fellow human being he/she has "condition" you have cure for is snake oil salesman ill intention to prioritize sales over their well being.
Martin, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 11:30 AM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 11:30 AM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 852 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
"I don't think content promoting any -isms other than pragmatism fits DhO rules."

Did you notice that you are posting this in a subject called: Home > Insight and Wisdom > Practices Inspired by Actualism

There are a bunch of other categories in there too, like Zen and Vajrayana/Tantra, which we talk about here all the time. I would say that checking out traditions by one's self and deciding, by one's self whether they are useful is at the very heart of pragmatism and a key aspect of the DhO. None of us has to agree with what any teaching says, but I gain a lot from seeing what a wide range of traditions say. 
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Chris M, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 12:34 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 12:31 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 5243 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Ni Nurta, any content related to the dharma is fine here. Read the rules and you'll find that the idea here is to share, cross-communicate and inform each other. Thanks for your vigilance but posting about Actualism doesn't break the rules of the DhO.

Chris M
​​​​​​​DhO Moderator
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Sha-Man! Geoffrey, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 12:56 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 12:56 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 377 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Okay, so for people who weren't on DhO during any of the actualism stuff, what's the pitch exactly? It seems like it got very mixed reviews, and Daniel a tactic endorsement to a stripped down version.
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Chris M, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 1:19 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 12:59 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 5243 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Visit the sites on the previous posts to get the gist from the experts. I could provide a summary but why not get the real thing from Actualism practitioners Here's some info - I did a quick DhO message board search for the word "Actualism":

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/23249806

https://www.simpleactualism.com/

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/23642312#_com_liferay_message_boards_web_portlet_MBPortlet_message_23646630
Martin, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 1:38 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 1:26 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 852 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
I wasn't here for the 2009 Actualism Wars :-) but I got a lot out of a post here about three years ago:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/23669142

I don't know whether this "simpler version" was what they were talking about back in the day, or even if it would be considered main stream actualism, but it clicked for me. I would not agree with the argument that this kind of seeing is all you need. It might be for some. For me, it's a way of seeing or a state, which can be accessed at any time, and can be super useful, both at the moment-to-moment level and as a fulcrum for insight. But it is not, just by itself, a replacement for insights that have a permanent impact on experience, outside of temporary states. 
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Pepe ·, modified 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 2:00 PM
Created 19 Days ago at 5/5/24 1:59 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 730 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
From Daniel's Posts Compilation: Actualism-Inspired Practices . In particular: Chasing limited emotional range model dreams
shargrol, modified 18 Days ago at 5/6/24 8:32 AM
Created 18 Days ago at 5/6/24 8:32 AM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 2484 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
There is also this:

​​​​​​​My Experiments in Actualism — Integrated Daniel
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Pawel K, modified 18 Days ago at 5/6/24 4:00 PM
Created 18 Days ago at 5/6/24 4:00 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 1166 Join Date: 2/22/20 Recent Posts
From https://www.integrateddaniel.info/my-experiments-in-actualism

Then there was everything related to things back in Australia and that old guy called Richard, the Genitor of Actualism, Discoverer of The HAIETMOBA (How Am I Experiencing This Method of Being Alive) Method, something he claimed was unique on this Earth, never before known or experienced before he experienced it.

Yeah, no one before Richard on this Earth figured out that you can experience jhana all day long and with it experience greatly reduced affect.
And people fall for this...

Imho Actualism is trivial and there isn't even anything to "practice"* here other than figure out what consciousness configuration they point to. Which isn't even any new invention or Richard but instead it is very closely related to Sukhāvatī from Mahayana.

I felt very lucky, in that I had plenty of up-close-and-personal exposure to people who claimed to have eliminated all affect. That said, there were some creepy aspects to all of this. Tarin, Trent and Jill had all gotten into a mode of being that was probably best described by the word "zombie", like you could just set them down on the floor and they would just sit there unmoving and undisturbed for some long period of time. It was definitely odd. Stef, on the other hand, seemed not affected in this way at all.

This happens because jhana can at most reduce affect but never eliminate it completely. There is a reason emotions arise forcefully but them themselves don't only arise for that reason but also because they are representing range of experiences we experience when being alive - which isn't anything bad. Mind can be programmed in such a way to prevent further affect by blocking itself until something akin to "attention wave" passes and it can be unconscious. The whole thing can be passed as transmission too. This wave here is realization mind is doing something it is not supposed to do - here experiencing emotions. In this case mind is not allowed to be experiencing any emotions because of belief it cannot because of attaining AF thus 'freezes'.

Those are very old tricks.
There is literally nothing new here.

And total elimination of affect makes the whole thing obviously scream not only nonsense but ill will - even if subtle.
I would respect Richard and other AF guys if they just said there is state of bliss that one experiences when practicing being appreciative of each moment of being alive and being harmless and said this is already the goal. Nothing else.
Now spinning it about some human condition and total elimination of affect with actual freedom being freedom from any or all emotions altogether is pushing the buttons that don't at all fit the vibe of what their method should be about.

To me it looks like the only invention Richard made here is take someone else dharma and make business out of it by desecrating its meaning. Maybe not but then again we have proof his books aren't very original. Ockham's razor in this case doesn't leave any place for doubt.

*) For Anagami and Arhats at least.
No ill will doesn't mean person is ignorant to ill will - more like there is extremely strong pull on experiences, to vipassanize them to pure forms and isolate out anything unpure. The perception of 'hooks' as I call them and being bothered by them is however already present in Stream Enterer. I mean, obviously person does not 'attain' Stream Entry and obviously it isn't any blip or other nonsense. When consciousness has matured enough to be conscious of itself in such a way to see consciousness as greatest source of knowledge and the way only to really surpass our own limitations then Stream Entry can be claimed.
I do get a feeling not that many people get that...

p.s. If its worth anything I for one writing this post enjoyed being alive emoticon
Harmless - only to views. But not even that because as much as Anagami has pull toward purifying experiences heedless unconscious of itself minds have even stronger pull toward any ideas of relief. I am in fact completely powerless to change anyone attitude toward what meditation is or can be. Therefore I can actually say whatever I feel is pure and not consider it as having any chance to rob people of their precious relief. At least not right away.

Also - I could easily claim AF - I got something better though: not only I am Stream Enterer but also Anagami. I can distill snake oil sold at convenience store and make lemonade out of it emoticon
...or buy lemonade at convenience store. So many options!
Martin, modified 17 Days ago at 5/7/24 2:16 PM
Created 17 Days ago at 5/7/24 2:16 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 852 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
Just for fun, I asked DanielGPT, "What do you think of actualism?"

The bot said:

"My experience with Actualism has undeniably had an immensely positive impact, particularly concerning my emotional life. It has enhanced the satisfaction from ordinary sensations, easing pressure elsewhere and increasing my enjoyment of numerous activities. I found that while it certainly doesn't eradicate hardships or a range of affective feelings, Actualism has significantly improved various aspects of my life. While mixing Actualism with other practices isn't advantageous, elements of it can effectively be incorporated into your life and practices. Throughout my journey with Actualism, I found immense delight in ordinary sensations, colors, textures, smells, and tastes. I took the time to recognize and appreciate how feelings arise and vanish, and how they function within my body. Also, practicing mindfulness in regard to my whole field of experience has proven to be beneficial. Regardless of any claims of the principles and teachings of actualism being proprietary or unique, I view them as consistent with traditional Buddhism teachings and they make good sense on their own, in their most basic practice. All this has only done me good, with one reminder: the effects from these practices could be specific to my basic wiring, previous practice, and my unique implementation of Actualism's instructions. This practice of attentiveness to feelings, tuning into the beauty of the physical world, and striving for a Pure Consciousness Experience (PCE) were introduced by Richard, a teacher of Actualism whose teachings some dharma friends and I explored around 2009. In the context of my understanding of awakening and the stages of insight, the Actualism practice experience falls in line with many of the stages, particularly the practices that help cultivate mindfulness, investigation, tranquility, concentration, and equanimity, and the experiences that resonate with recognizing the cause and end of suffering."

This, of course, contrasts sharply with the quote from MCTBII that Shargol recently posted but doesn't actually contradict that, as that writing was about definitions of enlightenment, while this focuses on practice. I wonder how Daniel feels about this answer. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 17 Days ago at 5/7/24 7:28 PM
Created 17 Days ago at 5/7/24 7:28 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 2826 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
At the end of the day all this seeker-tiring stuff is but fart in the wind. All of it. Nothing wrong with that though. 
Martin, modified 17 Days ago at 5/7/24 9:06 PM
Created 17 Days ago at 5/7/24 9:06 PM

RE: For those seeking active discussion about Actualism...

Posts: 852 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
At the end of the day, there is not much that is not a wind-storm fart. That's a beautiful thing!

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