Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Rodrigo C, modified 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 10:29 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 10:29 AM

Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Posts: 19 Join Date: 3/20/14 Recent Posts
Hi, everyone.

Before my question, a little background:

My current estimation of attainment is that I'm 95% confident to be at least 1st path, 60-70% 2nd and about 30% 3rd (and 100% not 4th). By that I consider myself somewhere in the middle paths.

My practice continues to improve, although at a slower pace. It's been quite a while since I don't notice specific sequence of the cycles, I just notice random ñanas popping up.

Regarding formal practice, I'm using Culadasa's incredible book "The Mind Illuminated" to fill the gaps I left behind while wandering around (my formal practices are not that great).

But I'd say my main practice is informal, trying to apply it anywhere anytime. Since I don't see the cycles anymore, l usually try to hang around 11.4.5 and 11.4.6, trying to stablish the witness. And although sometimes it works (the easiest is when I just wake up in the morning), a lot of times I have some problems.

Problem 1) Diferentiating between 11.4.5 and 11.4.6 (and, of course, 11.4.7 and 11.4.8). Sometimes things get too subtle and I can't really know if what I'm toching is 11.4.5 or 11.4.6. The descriptions fit both, but not exactly. So my guess is that I am probably mixing both.

Problem 2) Usually, while going after the edge, I end up losing most of the sense of self (and a lot of the sense of agency), and it's like I can't see 11.4.5, 11.4.6 or anything else and then I don't know what to do.


I've searched and read a lot of the threads dealing with what to do in the middle paths, and they helped me. And although I don't think I'm stuck, I think maybe I'm a little lost.

TL;DR: middle paths, trouble differentiating 11.4.5 and 11.4.6, don't know what to do after no-self.

Help with any of my problems or a direction to follow at this point?

Thanks,

Rodrigo
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Stirling Campbell, modified 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 10:42 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 10:42 AM

RE: Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Posts: 634 Join Date: 3/13/16 Recent Posts
I'm curious about the doubt about your attainments. Also wondering if you have a teacher?
Rodrigo C, modified 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 10:51 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 10:51 AM

RE: Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Posts: 19 Join Date: 3/20/14 Recent Posts
Stirling Campbell:
I'm curious about the doubt about your attainments. Also wondering if you have a teacher?

I don't have a teacher. I live in a not-big-town and although there is a meditation center here, members are just practitioners like myself. Sometimes they organize retreats, but I'm very low on money, so I can't afford them or to travel to bigger cities after a teacher.

And that's one of the reasons why I keep my attainments as confidence (and doubt). I increase the confidence as I notice more descriptions fitting my experience, specially if those stick during my day-to-day life. But since there's always the possibility for self-delusion, I try to keep a little skepticism.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 12:47 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 12:47 PM

RE: Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Your talking about different sub aspects of high eq with those notations, right?
Rodrigo C, modified 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 5:58 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 5:55 PM

RE: Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Posts: 19 Join Date: 3/20/14 Recent Posts
Noah:
Your talking about different sub aspects of high eq with those notations, right?


Yes, sorry, I'm used to looking at Daniel's map.

Also, the descriptions line up with my references to Ken Wilber/Diane Hamilton/Dustin DiPerna descriptions of the 5 states model: gross, subtle, causal, turiya (witness) and turiyatita (nondual).

In this case, it seems that is is:

11.4.5 - boundless space - causal
11.4.6 - boundless consciousness - turyia (witness)


At least that's what I get from the descriptions.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 8:45 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 8:45 PM

RE: Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
@Rodrigo:

Okay, cool.  Here's some disjointed thoughts from my experience.  My main squeeze was noting off-cushion, so I can talk about the same territory (high eq), but in off-cushion terms.   

I remember noting like a maniac when I would be stuck in mid eq no-man's land (it sometimes took a week of noting all day long to bust through), and eventually weird, trippy perceptions would begin and I would know I had made it into higher eq.  Past these odd phenomena, there was the sense of effortless bliss, and I would usually get a fruition after spending some time pondering the nature of suffering and how I was subtly resisting the moment.  This is probably the best advice I can give you; do some active examination when you are at a transition point into the next aspect of eq.  

"Technical" 3rd path was this nondual moment where it felt like a bubble of energy expanded from inside my torso to fill the entire field of time and space, and synched my energy up with it in a certain way.  After 3rd path there was this peripheral, intuitive sense of that nonduality, all the time.  Working towards "technical 4th," that sense of interconnectedness of all things increased until the core part of my 'energy field' (for lack of a better term) synched up with the environment in a complete enough way for that intuitive sense to become more central to my experience.

P.s.- I think the technical paths provide a similar degree of benefit to most yogis, but the pre-existing level of hindrance (i.e. somatic pockets of trauma) determines how much a given practitioner will find moment-by-moment relief from that benefit.  For some, further work is necessary, i.e. somatic, emotional, dream yoga, opening all perceptual doors, etc.
Rodrigo C, modified 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 9:58 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/30/16 9:58 PM

RE: Where to? (11.4.5 vs 11.4.6, witness and no-self)

Posts: 19 Join Date: 3/20/14 Recent Posts
Noah:
@Rodrigo:

Okay, cool.  Here's some disjointed thoughts from my experience.  My main squeeze was noting off-cushion, so I can talk about the same territory (high eq), but in off-cushion terms.   

I remember noting like a maniac when I would be stuck in mid eq no-man's land (it sometimes took a week of noting all day long to bust through), and eventually weird, trippy perceptions would begin and I would know I had made it into higher eq.  Past these odd phenomena, there was the sense of effortless bliss, and I would usually get a fruition after spending some time pondering the nature of suffering and how I was subtly resisting the moment.  This is probably the best advice I can give you; do some active examination when you are at a transition point into the next aspect of eq.  

"Technical" 3rd path was this nondual moment where it felt like a bubble of energy expanded from inside my torso to fill the entire field of time and space, and synched my energy up with it in a certain way.  After 3rd path there was this peripheral, intuitive sense of that nonduality, all the time.  Working towards "technical 4th," that sense of interconnectedness of all things increased until the core part of my 'energy field' (for lack of a better term) synched up with the environment in a complete enough way for that intuitive sense to become more central to my experience.

P.s.- I think the technical paths provide a similar degree of benefit to most yogis, but the pre-existing level of hindrance (i.e. somatic pockets of trauma) determines how much a given practitioner will find moment-by-moment relief from that benefit.  For some, further work is necessary, i.e. somatic, emotional, dream yoga, opening all perceptual doors, etc.

Thank you for your answer. I read it a few times trying to understand it and it gave me a couple of fruitions just now, specially searching for the peripheral nonduality.

Will try to apply your ideas. Again, thanks.

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