I spoke with Daniel a few weeks ago - my hesitancy about asking ?'s here is that I don't come from a Buddhist background though my main teacher is a Zen Buddhist/Vedanta hybrid (maybe).....and she's in AU. 

I'm 55 years old. Like Daniel (and I've read his book now several times) I think I entered dark night territory early in life as a result of spending copious amounts of time in the occult section of a locally owned bookstore - everything from Castaneda, aromatherapy, witchcraft and Taoism - all found in a section in the basement called 'occult'. I started doing yoga and meditation (from books) and actually trying to practice the things I was reading. I can pinpoint a few of those A&P things you guys talk about that have happened through the years. I also have been diagnosed on and off with 'mood disorders', dysthymia, etc.....in other words - cycling through dark night stuff. 

Fast forward to my mid 30's and I got really serious about this stuff - started attending seminars, meditating more (totally uninstructed), finally came across the whole awakening/enlightenment thing and that was it....started with the typical Western versions with Eckhart Tolle, Adya, David Hawkins (I could list at least 20 more) spent lots of time on retreats and so forth - not until my early 40's did I find the TAT organization and a local Buddhist group (and yeah, they really really don't want to talk about enlightenment!). I met my current teacher, Linda Clair, about 7 years ago and have been on at least 3-4 retreats with her per year since then. I guess (and I am really guessing because she doesn't talk about it much).....Soto zen? Just sit, follow the breath - an odd caveat (though maybe not to folks here) she used the physical pain of sitting as the main object of her meditations - she also talks a lot about the love for her teacher/devotion. She spent the last six weeks prior to her "enlightenment" at a monastery in Japan. Of all the teachers I've ever been with, I can say with certainty that there's something there - I feel drawn to her, I love her - not in a personal way, but in what she symbolizes.

However, she's on the other friggin' side of the world and shit has hit the fan for the past 2 years. My question to Daniel was how to tease out the dark night stuff from the personal hits my life has taken for the past 2 years. I'm working with another teacher (who seems to be familiar with several of you guys on this forum) and he sent me a recording of some guys (Hamilton Project) discussing their experiences in the stages of Fear - Re-observation - I almost cried with relief hearing my symptoms come out of their mouths - I've had kundalini type of things in years past (I'm a yoga teacher) but having my body contort into shapes in the middle of the night - moaning sounds coming out of me (unintended) was new territory. This teacher feels that I'm "cycling" and probably have been for quite a while. 

I feel I've been very exposed to strong insight practices, self inquiry but lacking in the area of concentration practice. Daniel's suggestion was "Jhana, jhana, jhana" ......Okay, so even though I'd read his book, I still had to go look that up - I've since read Leigh Brasington's book and I'm involved in 2 groups as we try to work our way through Culadasa's book together.

I'm trying to find a therapist who can deal with both sides of this.....hard to come by in central Virginia. Daniel gave me some names but insurance is limited and some have not returned my calls. 

Since talking to Daniel a few weeks ago, I've been meditating for about 3-4 hours per day in periods of 30-60 mins. I've been using the fire kasina method to begin my meditations and then switch to the breath. At first, the access concentration was fairly effortless and I recognized from my reading the characteristics of the 1st Jhana. My problem is I don't really feel any strong feelings of intense rapture - more like just easy pleasure - which I've learned to turn attention to. I've been having intense forehead headaches for 3 weeks - I took LBr suggestion to run attention up the spine and out the spot of the headache which helped a bit.

Now, I've hit a wall of resistance - feels like something has risen up in me that is really pissed off at this whole thing.....and those personal issues are circling me. I have an appointment with my regular ole therapist for decades who will suggest meds. and making some positive life goals - I really don't want to take meds. - and I really only have one goal, which I can't really even talk to her about.

Daniel also suggested a longer retreat - I've looked up a few - I don't really want any Buddhist dogma - i like this Leigh Brasington but he seems very popular and booked up. I've got to get out of this cycling (but is it just that or life issues, too?) The whole stream entry thing helping everything appeals to me but I don't want to set myself up to think that I could be that close. If equanimity has been reached at some point - I don't stay there long.

I'm in a position where I could potentially go on a longer retreat - but I'm very unstable right now - took the week off to get my act together - week is almost up and 'act' is worse than ever. I feel like I'm about to explode - sometimes sitting helps and sometimes it seems to make things worse.

Any advice? And please remember, I don't know this lingo very well.....but willing to learn.

In case you haven't heard it, there's a great hamilton project recording on the jhanas: http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/09/episode-1.html

You might also find this helpful http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/yogi-tool-box-letting-go-approach-to.html

Thank you - I'll try the 'letting go" one tonight.

Jhana - with fire kasina I get less somatic feelings of pleasure or rapture than I do with the breath. Even with the breath it doesn’t have to be some sort of extreme rapture or pleasure. “Just easy pleasure” will do just fine.

Especially if you are looking at jhana as a way to ameliorate the dark night , I’d suggest a laid back approach to jhana.. The anger really pissed off at the whole thing could be desire for deliverance. You may be ‘close’ to equanimity but if you are feeling unstable you may want to work finding a bit of stability rather than just powering ahead.

Try using the breath as the initial object and hang out in that space between access concentration and first jhana that begins to be peaceful and in a way very healing. Linger there before letting it move on into first jhana and again just relax there without trying to push for more.

For kundalini try running the energy down into the earth grounding it.

For Culadasa – try looking at on the interludes in his book where he talks about the difference between attention and awareness. I’ve found those descriptions and some of his meditations and discussions about this very helpful in translating between Adya and pragmatic dharma.
there are also now a lot of free downloads on his websites
http://dharmatreasure.org/
http://culadasa.com/

Don’t worry if you have a hard time fitting your experiences especially past ones into the models and terms. I came to this from long 40ish year history of other stuff. Sometimes my experience fit sometimes not so much but at least for me the practices worked anyway.

I highly recommend going to another retreat, and staying in contact with your teachers.  Make sure you're asking them the questions that are at the forefront of your psyche.  Even the scariest ones.  The notion of "cycling" for some time can be limiting.  I was trapped in the dark night for four years.  It was horrible...what got me out was by just focusing on meditating, not the maps.  I looked at the cheetah project and all manner of strange websites trying to figure out what was happening to me.  The cheetah project finally wrote back to me, by the way.  I think that when one is in your predicament, the important thing is just to keep looking for the three characteristics.  Meditation can also become very heady - one can engage the visual part of their mind a little bit too much, and get caught in a swirl of shallow sensate data.  Make sure you're putting effort into opening to the whirlwind of sensations.  Always imagine that there's more data you haven't seen.  Pretend that a baseball is going to come at you from any direction, so you have to sober up and fall in line with the way reality (sensations) are actually presenting their-selves - impermanently, in a manner that is beyond the self.

The reason teachers act so strangely about the notion of enlightenement has something to do with the fact that it becomes normal for them.  I'm not enlightened but...remember, this isn't some crazy action movie where you're trying to defeat the bad guy (samsara) and save the world.  You're searching for something that will expand your psyche naturally.  It should be difficult (sitting still with upright posture, body-scanning, or at least maintaining awareness of the three characteristics in the midst of all manner of sensations), but not so difficult that only some ridiculously rare genius can accomplish it.

I didn't experience any insight until I went to a retreat several years ago.  I'm in the middle of a dark night now, so for some reason it feels a little awkward giving advice.  But I'll go ahead.

I've been to a few retreats.  At my third ten day, I was once again feeling very bipolar.  I was experiencing extreme ups and extreme downs.  In the middle of one of my "downs" I decided to cut through my mental drama and witness the impermanence of sensations.  I don't know why it happened when it did, but that's how it went down.  This didn't have much of a lasting effect until I returned home from the retreat.  I was lying on my bed, full of these horrifying fears and sensations...when it dawned on me that the only way "out" was by cutting through the mental drama that worsened the fears, and by focusing on sensations with a light, natural attitude.  And to continue doing that...forever.

Interestingly, what I've described barely lines up with anything described in Daniel's paths.  But those experiences completely changed the landscape of my mind.  I'll admit I'm still troubled.  I'm still very haunted, actually...but there is this strand of confidence in me that feels unshakable, and reading dharma texts no longer intimidates me.  

Anyways, I'm sorry for just giving you more anecdotal advice.  Once your mind has stabilized, go on a ten day retreat.  It will be difficult, but it will be worth it.  The dogma is an unfortunate price to pay, but ultimately it's worth it.  It's very worth it.  Try to pay for a retreat where there will be a living, verified teacher present...I always go to S.N. Goenka retreats.  I really like them, but they are intense.  And his recorded lectures are a little dogmatic.  I believe in you though!  Even though I don't know you.  If you're this far, keep going.  You can do it.

Until several weeks ago I didn't know about maps - I actually want to know as little as possible to get through this. I didn't quite know what I was doing these past 3 weeks with the concentration practice, so as 'insight' natually arose - I would investigate (what I now understand as the 3 characteristics). I have a feeling that may have been where I went wrong with Daniel's instructions. I'm thinking he may have meant to build up the concentration and avoid inquiry just to get some stabilization.....but the draw to inquire just took on a life of its' own so I just went with it - but then I crashed.....and recognized that re-observation territory.

And do these 2 maps line up? I swear, from the descriptions of those jhanas, it felt like my first attempt I went flying through the first few (and I read the descriptions of the 2nd and 3rd AFTER that first sit). After that, I feel I got stuck in the 1st thinking that the 'easy pleasure' I felt wasn't enough.....then I just started over-thinking the whole thing. 

And what you described about investigating impermanence of sensations cutting through your mental drama - that's what seemed to make things worse for me. But who knows, I'm so confused about all of this - I need to simplify, somehow. But thank you for your response - it means so much to know that others are struggling with this stuff. Your vote of confidence made me tear up - thank you so much. And that's the advice Daniel gave me - get stable and go on retreat.....onward.

Yes, Elizabeth - I think that's what Daniel was trying to tell me - get stable by doing concentration practice (but as I was telling someone else, the insight (inquiry) just took over so I went with it. Now I know better and thank you for telling me the 'easy pleasure' was okay - I haven't felt that rapture/bliss stuff for a while, now - it's like a clunky lawn mower trying to start and puttering out.

And yeah, I'm a yoga teacher so I know about grounding energy but I'm finding it's very experimental as far as when and what type of yoga helps or hinders this practice.

I really loved Culadasa's differentiation btw attention and awareness and thanks for the free stuff.
Again, it's really lovely to hear from folks that understand.....funny how you can feel like such a beginner with the lingo but find a common experience anyway - says something about what we're all looking for.

Can you elaborate on translating between Adya and pragmatic dharma? I'd love your thoughts on that.

I turned to Adya a couple of years ago to explain and get some ways to work with some of the oddness which showed up unexpectedly when I started working with pragmatic dharma. I did a lot of Adya style resting as awareness with attention either on awareness or just resting as awareness.  Working with him and with Mukti was very helpful but seemed somewhat like a separate thing.  Not really jhana.  inquiry but not quite the same as what I had done with insight / vipassana.

I was in a weekend retreat in NYC with Culadasa’s a couple of weeks ago. Loved his extended discussion about attention and peripheral awareness. He did a guided meditation going from attention to awareness. Awareness felt like what I had experienced with Adya. The shift between them felt a lot like the transition between first and second jhana. I had a chance to ask him about it and he said yes, that focused attention falls away at that point. So that gave me the link between the two ways of working.

I'm currently working with Culadasa's approach to add a bit more in depth concentration focus to my own practice. 

Your story resonates with mine. Like you I also started with Adya and Tolle and to this day I have no idea what jhanas, nanas, or dukka means. LOL. And I was falsely diagnosed with bipolar disorder by five different therapists and psychiatrists.

I'm going to remain objective as hell because all I have to go on is my experience.

A great deal of MCTB resonated with my experience. But a lot of the buddhist terminology was way over my head and I just didn't trust it. In hind sight I'm still not sure what to make of it because how I got out was messy as hell and certainly not what was prescribed by the book. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I'd have gotten through dark night quicker had I really studied and applied it.

I ended up remaining stuck in dark night for four years. I meditated a crap ton for the first 2.5 years and got nowhere except nearly wrecking my life.

The remaining 1.5 years was equal part relaxing, committing to work, friendships, and taking care of my health.

This allowed me to study and know myself on a deep level. This alleviated about 50% of the dark night.

I finally popped out when I got laid off from my insanely stressful job, quit smoking, set aside all my goals, and laid around the house doing nothing. You may have heard of the "backwards step." This was it.

If I had to do it again I'd put my life on hold so I didn't wreck things, find some place safe to go, and take really good care of my health. I suspect this is why retreats are recommended so highly. However, I don't see how you can really know yourself from sitting on a cushion.

The unfortunate thing is that not many outside of Zen or Buddhism will know anything about dark night. However, there are a couple of therapists out there who are familiar with it. I encountered one, and she was pretty fucking amazing.

You mentioned yoga, but I'm curious what your life looks like. Do you have friends, strong health habits, or addictions?

I have a feeling I know what you are going to say but what is this one goal that you speak of?

Hi Ivory,
Thanks for sharing. Did you reach some different level - Equanimity, SE? Or did your life calm down enough to  make what you were going through easier?

Backwards steps?
I was a soccer mom/yoga teacher/adjunct professor teaching conscious relaxation (funny, since all I feel lately is adrenalin coursing through my system). Husband made a lot of money for around these parts ;-)  Within a few years, lost my college position, my husband (affairs), my home, my financial security, moved in with my mother, both kids dropped out of college.....my "personal search for Enlightenment" was mentioned 10 times in the divorce documents - which is still pending. 

I would change nothing about what has happened - I prayed that dangerous prayer daily - take whatever is in my way and place on my path what is necessary. My mother has graciously opened her very tiny home to us, kids are getting back on track, I have the support of many other seekers - the best friends I have - really, the
only friends I have - and I don't mind. And yeah, I think you know what that one thing is that I want.

I teach about 60 yoga classes per month - make a little more than minimum wage - get a hefty alimony check (for now) which is being used to pay for kid's college - thus - living with mom. Some close to me would say that this search is an addiction - as I still use whatever money I have left to go on retreats, and travel to attend events with other seekers. 

Very strange - I've always had a fairly good diet, though not fanatic - about a month ago, it changed, with no conscious decision of my own - I'm eating extremely 'clean'.

I'm in a unique position for the time being (another year and half whilst daughter finishes school). I'm being supported, in a way, and my schedule is very flexible - I could even take a leave of absence and come back to my job - I can also easily take a week here and there - even once a month as other teachers will trade classes so I don't lose money. However, eventually I need to get back out there - 

I have some questions for you or anyone else that reads this:

1) Is it just me or does this re-observation seem worse every time it comes around and does the amount of meditation (which I've increased lately) make it seem more extreme? I literally dropped out for a few days and stayed in my room - fortunately deleted every vile email I concocted to my husband - it felt like I had become Mr. Hyde and needed to be tied down til it passed. Now that it has, the only thing I can think about is getting back on the cushion....and yes, I did manage to sit through some of the bad days - basically sat and cried, though.
2) I need to see a therapist - just to SAY things to someone - but I know those inevitable questions will come into play - do you ever have suicidal thoughts, etc.....I simply do not know how to separate this stuff. Some folks have given me a few names of people (Cheetah, a few therapists in different parts of the country - I don't do well with computers, in general which leads me to the next question.....)
3) How the hell do I change my full name to a screen name.....all I need is for my husband's attorney to find this. I'm surprised I was able to sign up in the first place! 
4) It was suggested that I "get some stability" and then head to a longer retreat (10-30 days).....I'm not sure how to define stability as I find myself in that 'bad' place every few weeks/days (actually it seems to be coming around more frequently as I meditate more). Or did they mean try to reach Equanimity before heading out?
5) I've done many retreats with different people - but mainly with my teacher from AU - does it matter what phase I'm in at the end of the retreat as to what shape I'm in post-retreat?! I've left some feeling like I was 'untouchable' and left others feeling gutted. How do you manage that or is that left to the wisdom of the teacher?

I could keep going, but enough for now. I work with several teachers besides the one in AU - none Buddhist - but one knows about you guys and your work, here. I'm glad I finally took his suggestion and jumped in - it has been very comforting.

• You break down more and more until the pain becomes unbearable.
• I had a few therapists. When they asked I told them that life didn't feel worth living but I would never take my life.
• Maybe PM the moderators.
• I found some stability with friends and exercise.
• I don't know much about retreats.

Your desire for enlightenment is holding you back. For you it's an obsession / addiction. It's long gone now but that's how it was for me for 2 years. Often times we use spirituality to bypass responsibility or working with our fears. 

The backwards step is letting go of all your goals, addictions, and obsessions. There may also be a unconscious material lingering underneath the layer of seeking energy.

In my experience, dark night was part taking a massive step back, and part working with the core beliefs that manifested as fear and complacency.

Go to the top right corner where you see your name.
Click on my account

Change for first name to what you want your screen name to be
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Increased time on the cushion may make the effects more intense. This may not be the time to try to power through. Paradoxically relaxing might work better. Awareness or metta - well wishing practices might help but may not be possible in intense reobservation. Noting at the most basic level you can manage may help too. That got me through the worst of my reobservation cycles. Just lying in bed paying attention moment by moment to the extraordinary cacophany that was going on. Not trying for any sort of insight or concentration beyond staying with what was happening instead of telling myself stories about it.  Other possibilities getting out in nature, walking, maybe a good book or movie  something to shift attention away from the search for a bit.


edited to add more

Myby copy pasteing the dark nanas would help. http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html


5. Bhanga nanaThis is the fifth insight knowledge. It means "Knowledge of contemplation on dissolution," and it has the following characteristics:

6. Bhaya nanaThe sixth stage of knowledge is bhaya nana or "knowledge of the appearance as terror." The following characteristics can be observed:

7. Adinava nanaThe seventh knowledge is "knowledge of the contemplation of disadvantages." It has the following characteristics:

8. Nibbida nanaThis is, "Knowledge of dispassion." It has the following characteristics:

and so on..
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you can change your name: At the right up corner is your your current user name, clicking on that will bring out pop-up menu from there click on "My Account" and fro mthere opens up a screen where you can change setings and screen name.

4 noble truths

it is important that it must have its own post dedicated only to 4 noble truths. So you have no otehr choice to notice it.

i just add that if you are occultist, a loner. Then your partner is subtle reality. You have to learn to give it a form what exactly matches the feelings etc...

Paraphrasing...


This is right on. I can't emphasize the relaxation component enough.

I'm a bit afraid that you're going to receive too much conflicting info from people here. Myself included. Dark night is really messy and it's difficult to find your way out if you don't know what's keeping you trapped there.

Given your spiritual and yoga background I think you'll like this woman. She knows dark night well. Not only has she experienced it but she's worked with a number of clients stuck in that space: Check out her services and audio: http://drariadne.com/dark

Good luck and I wish you the best.

Thanks everybody - some great advice and starting places - and when my IT person arrives tonight from school - we'll see about getting that name changed ;-)

Hi Leesa,
 
I'm really sorry to hear you are having so much difficulty. I'd like to re-iterate what elizabeth and ivory said. Going through a Dark Night is difficult, but the fact that your personal life is filled with so much conflict is probably making the symptoms worse. You've received so much advice so far that I hesitate to give more, but I do think you probably would do better to back off, wait until the divorce is finalized, maybe start spending more time with friends, maybe still do a sit or so a day for 40 minutes with focus on concentration as Daniel suggested, but I would not push for jhana or anything like that. Just let the concentration come easy and naturally, and enjoy the feelings of pleasure however intense they are. Once you get your everyday life settled, you could then return to intensive practice.

I was fortunate to go through Dark Night and Reobservation with a very supportive partner who I have been married to for over 30 years and a steady job. Nevertheless, it was extremely difficult, and I kept wanting to leave her, even though we had and have an excellent relationship. Supportive friends can make a big difference in times of difficulty.

Good luck!