Anybody here figured those things out yet?

More particulary (but not attempting to completely ignore/cancel the general focus of the original question) ... has anybody figured out how not to feel like a crazy-fucking-rapist-lunatic-dogslobbering-harddicked-bastard when observing/in the presence of a hot piece of female flesh (or man flesh for the gays and females)?

Trent, Tarin. Were any of these primal urges/lustful mindframes/doglike libidos holding you up at all/ causing any roadblocks for any of you.

Anyone else ... please feel more than free to express. Misery can appreciate the company. Much obliged.

Rich

Oh and then there's that eternal peace/fulfillment/bliss/ecstacy that a woman's smile appears to promise. Enchantment/obsession/infatuation ... love.

I could melt in her eyes, roll down her silky cheek, and drip off her soft, full lips into an abyss of blissful nothingness.

She promises peace and delivers me heartache. At best she smells like shit and I'm indifferent to her. At best.

At worst, she's a goddess. A goddess with absolute power over me.

There are other issues that comprise 'Me' but this one has been a relative biggie since about 3 years old.

i try to reflect on their shadow sides, what would happen if i did fall for it, what they would look like if they were zombies, what they would look like without skin.. try to seem them as they really are, try to draw compassion, try to notice any flaw of their physical appearance, if they're really beautiful, there must be something imperfect, think of something disgusting.
http://www.mycoolthing.com/images/world-record-fat-guy-300248.jpg
http://www.barelyhangingon.com/wp-content/uploads/fat_women_bathingsuits.jpg
http://dullsvillain.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/twin-failure.jpg
http://chriskolba.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/russian-woman-natalya-m-belly-fat-picture3.jpg

you can do it.

Mental tricks like those are dissapointingly temporary. I've tried all of those. I've tried to imagine a beautiful young woman as the old and crusty woman she'll end up being if she lives an average lifespan. I know that all women will become physically ugly one day in one way or another.

But all those mental tricks and distractions do nothing when faced with the physical, actual presence of the sweetest-thing-you-ever-did-see in daisydukes and flipflops walking by you in the grocery store smelling to sex and strawberries. And it makes it worste when my taste in women is so wide and varied. I find so many types -- young, old, big, small, black, white -- so enchantingly beautiful.

I do my best to keep my head from exploding.

You're horny?

Among the many and varied other emotions and passions felt with these females ... yes. And it sucks. Shit is fucking heroin. I may end up one day going to sex addicts anonymous or something but I have the feeling their prescribed treatment is going to do with a lot of suppressing of emotions and drives and whatnot. Suppression/ignoring/mental diversion isn't what I'm about. Elimination is the only key for me.

Goddamn ... women are beautiful.

Looking into Love Addicts Anonymous too. But like all these 12 step programs they have glaring problems. For instance, this is what they say is key to overcoming an addiction to love:

"Love addicts are alienated from the most important kind of love, the love we offer ourselves." http://loveaddicts.org/selfesteem.htm

So they prescribe "self-love." That's not eliminating the problem ... Love is still there! Except now in a narcissistic form!

Goddamn. Dr. Phil and Oprah and Krishnamurti and The 12 Step Program are in over there heads with this shit! This sex/love thing is a problem my fellow man, mammal, and reptile face and have faced since the dawn of sentient life.

Wars have started over this shit. Probably a billion suicides. All types of pain, sadness, frustration, brutality have come about because of this crazy lil thing called love ... and sex.

Time we figured this shit out for good, eh?

I frankly find this post completely inadequate for this forum...

Why?

No. That's not quite the way it works for me. My choice in the matter of whether I consider them beautiful or not doesn't seem to exist in any way shape or form. It seems like the choice was made at a more genetic level (if I were born gay I'd be into men).

Trust me, man. There have been more than a few times when I wished every single female on this planet (but especially this one gal) look like a crusty, nasty, piece of human defilement.

No avail.

Thank you for your feedback though.

You clearly project too much into what you see. This is not atypical.

What the eye sees, the eye desires.

How is it so clear to you that I project too much in to what I see?



Not necessarily. My eyes see a smudge on my white wall right now. I have no drive to make sweet barry-white love to that smudge.

I never, ever feel like I have to justify having sex ... in the same way I never, ever feel like I have to justify caring about my cat. Sex to me is as natural as coughing.

Again, I'm going to have to disagree with you that I choose (at least not at all consciously) to apply beauty on top of women in the same way as I would disagree with you if you were to say that a male horse chooses to apply his form of attraction on top of a sexy (to him) female horse. As I proposed, I think this stuff runs very deep ... back into ancient, ancient, pre-human, pre-mammal history.

Indeed the object of love and beauty and even sexual desire does not need be a person. I'm sure there are/have been anomolies throughout history in those regards.



Love, for me has little that is ethically/morally pleasing. I have seen in myself violence, hatred, blind adoration, grief, and despair all in the name of love and beauty. I do not follow society's blind encouragement and acceptance of love and beauty as the ultimate cure all.



Agreed. Both sides of that coin are terribly problematic.



No, sir. 'Tis not at all in the slightest about anything ado with society's acceptance of me and striving to fit in/gain acceptance/adulation/unity/whatever with humanity as a whole by openly and unabashedly indulging in one passionate-drive in favor of another one. Not in the slightest.

Here's the scenario: Driving home from work, while slowing down to a stop light, I look over to my left and see a curvy black girl with thick yet lean thighs&ass wearing the tightest, smallest track shorts she could fit into while wearing a size extra small white tank top being stretched to the max by her gorgeous, juicy melon-bags sitting below her cute, nubile face. YIKES! I'm suddenly struck with a painful wave of energy that starts simultaneously from my groin/heart/and head and travels all over my body ... toes, fingers, earlobes ... everywhere. All I want to do (to relieve this painful/seductive/will-controlling energy) is stop my car. Get out and walk over to her and start making sweet, sweet, lovin' til I relieved myself inside her. It wouldn't be just sex ... it would be mixed with the absolute most romantic and unified feelings for this stranger my physical body could muster. I'd worship her as a goddess and would expect the same in return.

Very occasionally, this will actually play out in the physical world (not being quite as direct and anti-social in the above scenario, of course), but 99% all this takes place in my noggin. All of this passionate rollerocoaster occuring for this one female my eyes caught a momentary glimpse of. And then I make my turn at the light and come across a blonde, skinny woman jogging ... and there it goes again! And it doesn't matter if the lady is stranger or familiar ... my obsession has few prejudices.

As I've said, there are plenty, plenty, plenty other aspects of 'Me' that are just as worthy of attention (if not more so), however I am choosing to focus on this one for the time being. It seems like it's something I ALMOST (more or less, I can FEEL it goddammit!) have the answer to (at least relative to the other bullcrap in my life). I'm just out here looking for any piece of information/insight that'll helpn trigger this whole entire feminine issue to dissapear without a trace and finally leave me in peace.

To the author of this thread or to one of the moderators.Maybe changing the title of this thread would be appropriate. I know we all have to get a long here, A/F practioners and Dharma practioners, sigh, but come on....Women? as a title thread and then just talking sex? Yeh, sure we have an area sectioned off for A/F. But most people are pressing the recent threads button. Please, please for the rest of us Dharma practioners and out of respect to the female posters here, change the thread title to something like Dealing with Lust. Respect please!

I can't believe this.

I come on here with a bonafide problem requesting assistance. I spill my heart out in the most open and frank way ... censoring nothing with the aim of encouraging responses in a like-manner pertaining to the issue I brought up. I titled it "Women" because that's the issue I am dealing with. I have no ill-will to the female of this species. My issues, I realize, are MY issues.

What you are essentially doing, Nikolai, is advocating censorship ... albeit in the name of "respect." What dictatorship society do you come from where one can't talk openly? I have great respect and admiration for women. Which is one of the reasons I am trying to eliminate this issue from my heart of hearts.

Rather than attempt to help your fellow man you choose to censor him. C'mon man. Let's not start a precedent. Let's try and deal with the actual issues and content of the writings and not get too distracted by the style they were presented in.



Have you actually read what it is I am talking about. This is about more than just sex dude! This is about the human fuckin condition! This is about the ancient animal condition! This is YOU at the core, man! C'mon don't you ever look at women?! Aren't you curious about all the shit going on inside of you while you are looking at them women?! While you are making love to women? (or guys if that's your thing)

Shit.

C'mon now. Let's not all act like we're above all this base stuff. Let's not all pretend like it's not there. If you guys are truly above all this stuff (or even better, have eliminated it completely), share with your fellow, suffering pal, Rich.

In the spirit of giving you some ideas of how to work with this issue, here's just one:
Build a shrine to the Great Goddess and devote yourself to it. Seriously. Even if a project like this doesn't seem like your cup of tea, or something you would ever normally put effort into, just consider this for a moment- just for the hell of it. Consider building a small shrine, maybe out of an old wooden box or a small cabinet, and placing it in an auspicious corner in your house or room, or even in a nice little grove outdoors somewhere you pass by regularly.
Next, find or make an effigy that seems to fit some sort of feminine ideal: A resin cast of Kali, Kwan Yin, Babalon, Artemis, the Corn Goddess, etc. Any thing that seems to fit. Put the effigy in the shrine. Surround it with things that you imagine might appeal to a woman of her stature, like flowers you've picked, a scented scarf you found while crossing the parking lot, a love note an ex-girlfriend gave you once long ago, pretty rocks. Light a candle or some insence at the shrine. Do these things regularly, especially whenever you're most frustrated (or "backed-up and blue-balled", to quote the late, great comedian Bill Hicks), but even when you don't. It's important to be dedicated.
Leave this Goddess an offering, write her poetry, try to associate her with the woman in the short-shorts you see bouncing down the grocery story eisle or whenever else the irrepressible urge begins to sweep over you. I can promise that you'll quickly find this funny little art project becoming something much greater than the sum of it's parts.
It's a practice that takes a while, but in dealing with this very same issue, I've found such a devotional practice to be very worthwhile, in that it seems to divert the main stream of the urge, gradually at first, but then increasingly so. I believe this is a perfectly decent way of dealing with Morality, as it is a very "safe" practice, and is no one's business but your own. Buddhism has a long and myriad tradition of dealing with all sorts of aspects of human nature, often including roadside shrines to the elements, devotion to various feminine archetypes, and other idealistic practices. None of these have to be creepy or ostentatious, just heartfelt. Results will follow by employing these mindfulness practices.
Try it out for two months, see what happens. Otherwise, join the 12 Steppers. In any case, I hope you come to a skillful resolution of your entirely human condition and I wish you all the best. You are not alone, brother!
Yers truly,
Gabriel

P.S. My house reeks of nag champa as we speak, and my monthly candle bill? Don't get me started.

Go to alchemicaltaoism.com and find the description of Biels fire and water technique. It is a simple way of blending heart energy with sexual energy. It feels lovely and eliminates horniness by creating a steamy sort of compassion bliss. It works in the moment and for sometime after that but does not remove the sex drive over the long term at all. I don`t really see why you would want to do that anyway.

Hi Rich,

Sex (straight or gay) is fine and human being enjoy it since immemorial ages. So, sex itself - the body activity, excepting the desire, fantasy, fetishes and the libido behind it - is not the actual problem here.

Like you, some hetero women also nurture sexual obsession (or 'addiction' if you prefer) regard men.
Some questions to help you in this issue:
Are you married? Or do you have a [official] girlfriend? Do you have sex attraction for your sister(s) / mother / grandmothers and any kin female (daughters, nephews, etc)? Do you feel sexual attraction for female babies, childrens or teens? How many times by day (or week, or month) you make sex (and/or masturbation)?
The ball is in your hands now...

Luciano

When it comes to Love (and especially the type that lasts for extended periods, i.e. way, way after the first orgasm) personality and common interests andsuch play a much, much larger role.



Those cultural variations/personality types have little to no effect on me when it relates to the pure sex drive. And I'm not alone. Have you ever heard the recent pop hit song in the U.S. called "I Wish I Could Fuck Every Girl in the World"?

I wish I could. But I don't have a world famous Rock band, I'm not the King of Thailand, I'm not an NFL superstar, I'm not James Bond, and I'm by no means a model hunk. Unrequited Love/Romance/Sexual Interest and the concomitant blue balls are more up my alley. Not that I am entirely bitter about all that. But it's just a fact of my life. And I much, much rather it not be.

As I don't see myself turning into Brad friggin Pitt or signing that mega-huge record deal by the end of this week, I need to eliminate this love/romance/erotic/libido thing ASAP.



In my view it is. The same drive running through my veins when I see Candy and her tight-ass swirling around the strip pole is the same drive running through Butch's when he sees a k9bitch in heat. Both of us have the same thing on our mind!

But, this all debatable (obviously else we wouldn't be debating about it). And regardless if the human sexual/erotic/romantic passions are the same, similar, or totally different from a squirrel's, it still doesn't change the fact that I'm going absolutely bonkers when I see that mind-boggling fit femme-fatal. MEU DEUS!

Like taking a baseball to the chest every fuckin time! Goddamn!



OK. Well with that in mind ... Love (more particularly romantic love) can also get you arrested, get you killed. Godforbid I lived in Afghanistan as a woman. I would've had my head chopped off years ago. Romantic love can and does breed jelousy. So romantic love runs hand in hand with malicious passions ... which could get you killed or imprisoned. Love for oneself (self-pride, self-esteem) has many a person being killed over such a small thing as an insult! Love for family, tribe, country, religion, or soccer team can certainly put one in a kill or be killed situation. A good number of wars have been based/supported by such things.

All types of Love has the real potential to exacerbate the risk of bodily harm to all concerned. But all this is not quite really the issue I'm trying to get at.

So, having received quite a few tips, have you considered pausing the performance, and actually applying those tips?

If they don't work out for you, I'm sure you'll receive more tips.

But we'll never know without you putting them to the test.

Cheers,
Florian

Hi Luciano



Correct.



"Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man"



No.



Not an [official] girlfriend, no.



There are the occasional nightmares where the woman your making love to turns into momma. God I fucking hate those! And then there's that 1st or 2nd cousins that might leave a grave thought or two in your head every once in a while. Very ackward.

But by and large: No. Keeping it in the family (especially the immediate family) is definitely not enticing.



Teens: yes, Babies: no, Children: no.



Varies. I might go a couple of weeks without a sexual session of any sort. Or, on a given day, I might have 10 sexual sessions with myself or a female.

All together I might average about 6-8 orgasms a week. Sometimes less, sometimes more.



I do wonder where you are going with this.

Thanks for your interest.

Well, Florian, I received one tip which I already had been using a long time before coming to this forum with ultimately no lasting success.

I received a response from a poster stating that they think that what really happens is that I want to believe women are beautiful and that I want to (and choose to) fall in love with them. So I'm guessing his tip was that I stop believing women are beautiful and that I simply choose to not fall in love with them. Maybe he can follow up with how I am supposed to go about doing that. I forgot to ask that and got caught up in a debate or two.

Then I received another response telling me that, to this person, I clearly project too much into what I see. He never did respond to my follow up question asking how it is clear to him that I project too much into what I see. And based on what he's telling me, he's essentially saying that projecting into what I see is OK ... I'm just doing it "too much." Then he goes on to say. "What the eye sees, the eye desires." That helps so little.

Then I received an obvious (but not at first, it was quite well done) tongue-in-cheek joke tip ... Did you not catch that one!

Lastly, I received a tip about a method that, as stated by the poster, does not remove the sex drive over the long term at all. Apparently the method is used to alleviate too much sexual energy. The method goes: "To activate the true process start by drawing energy up from the sperm palace (outer water) up to the heart center. The heart by itself is just fire and love energy, just a dry fire burning out. When this water reaches the heart center you use the sexual ching by combining it with the heart's natural fire to activate the heart's inner water. This is the true compassion. It's a very distinctive cool and gentle feeling at the heart. Then you take this newly formed seed of gentle cool heart compassion that has been activated and along with the heart’s natural yang fire, lower it down to the sperm palace point. By itself it is just wet water looking for a way to leak out."

My mind cannot produce that level of hallucination without the proper illegal narcotic.

Tarin, Trent. I'm still short 4 cents.

Please consider helping in any way you can. I would be too appreciative. Thank you.

Have you tried any of the AF stuff? It looks like it would completely eradicate the whole problem, which seems to be what you are looking for. Who knows that might help, especially since loathsomeness of the body meditation or any of that sort don't work (inferred from your other posts). I can tell you plenty of ways to suppress it or alleviate the problem temporarily, but that doesn't seem to be what you are looking for.

There was a discussion here a while back on the whole 'gaming women to bed them 'phenomenom/movement. Mystery method, David D'Angelo et al. And while much of that seems short sighted in its aims there is one variant called the 'Natural Game' that two or three years ago really helped me gain some emotional balance about women. The basic premise is making the encounter with another human being enjoyable for both of you. One of the founders made the comment that he used the method with all the women he met from his grandmother on down. And that at the end of the night he'd usually had such a good time just hanging out and making good genuine contact that he didn't care whether he'd got laid or not. You may feel this is not quite on point to being blown away by a gorgeous women. I'd say you're wrong. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you don't actually intimately connect a great deal with women - sexually, or otherwise. What an approach such as NG can do is provide the skills to relate and enjoy someone you're attracted to in a relaxed fashion. Then from a vantage of poise and balance and connection, its possible to assess where you want to go next with much greater dispassion. If you want something to develop further, great, you can pursue that confident she and you are going to feel good about the exchange. And, if you decide that you don't, you're still left with the pleasure of having made good genuine contact. The key is providing you with skills and perspective to get up close/connect and from there see with clarity ( that is with very little anxiety or neediness) and have a base from which further intimacy and/or sex can develop organically. For me it was most significant in helping me see very clearly the distinction between love and sexual attraction. Aka how to connect in a way that felt great for both sides of the party, yet didn't necessarily involve emotional bonding. Very freeing.

'Nuff said. Good luck. How about trying some noting/actualism practice btw? You might find that Trent/Tarin are all over a report on that..

Rich - I encourage you to take Damon's advice. Practicing Mystery's method out in the real world will cool off the 'unrequited' part a bit. Stop practicing it once that goal is achieved. I found that it is essential to do whatever one can in order to get back to normal at least, before you can even apply the actualism method on this matter. (Personally, I don't practice Mystery's method - never did and never will)

When you do get back to normal, first of all - try to up-level your default feeling of experiencing life. If the immediate moments *preceding* your encounters with voluptuous women happen to be particularly felicitous, you'll notice that lustful desire would be correspondingly lesser in intensity.

From that vantage point (of lower intensity lust), you should apply the actualism method. Also pay definite attention to the subject matter, to the point of breaking it down from illusory emergence to detailed actuality -- a) sense the texture of a female's face/parts; observe the imperfect "details" thoroughly and enjoy the company of this person happening in this moment; slide into actuality from the intuitive reality. b) ruthlessly discern the actual moment-to-moment behavioral nature of this female to the point of making non-sense of the intuition/feeling of 'softness' of this women (which softness plays a major part in the romantic feeling of love).

-srid

Hi Rich,

If you believe this is an obsessive-compulsive thing, then, apart from the observation that taking medical advice from the internet should not be the main strategy here, I think the tips about "diluting" or "fanning out" your experience of women (building shrines, Mystery method, taoist alchemy, whatever) are definitely worth a try. By building up alternatives to your habitual reaction to women, you're putting things into perspective, and the habitual reactions won't loom that much any more.

It's not a silver bullet, it's a change in habits (rule of thumb: takes about 3 months), and from then on it's still a lifelong thing to maintain it. But, as srid pointed out, from that position you have much better ways of putting a strategy like AF (or insight) to work.

Cheers,
Florian

LOL dude! Natural Game's Zan Perrion can't help me! I wrote his book!

From his article: The Essence of Enlightened Seduction http://www.zanperrion.com/the-essence-of-enlightened-seduction.php



I'm tired of these power plays. I don't want her to have any power over me, and I want to stop having power of her.



And now I want freedom. I am tired of romance, love, eroticism.

What you describe is the avenue I am taking at the moment/and have been taking for the past couple of years. It's the most sensible approach I have on hand. Progress is slow and barely noticeable ... but is certainly there. I've most assuredly upped my base-level happiness and my NEED for women is nowhere near what it was years ago.

There is still enough, however, that my boat can get severely rocked. I was hoping maybe Trent or Tarin's assistance will perhaps show me a way to maybe somehow utilize these (often unrequited/sometimes requited) romantic passions concerning women in a way that will have break free into a complete actual freedom from the entire human condition. Kinda like using them as fuel boosters of sorts. I feel a very deep/ very essential part of myself when experiencing these feelings. I, for some reason, don't back away from these deep feelings as much as I do with fear ... however these feelings can certainly produce a lot of fear ... so maybe I don't know what I am talking about.

I'm out here trying to find the quick and dirty way. Maybe it exists. Maybe it don't. Gotta, gotta get free of it though. Sooner or later. Hopefully sooner. Patience isn't my strongest virtue.

Thank you for the feedback.

No, it's not. Though thank you for your feedback. I am attempting to do the AF stuff currently as prescribed but I'm looking for a quicker way to end this rollercoaster ride.

Hi Ric,

So, you are not married, don´t have any girlfriend and are not a sex addict (or perverted) and also seems to have a healthy sexual life due its frequency* (btw, how old are you?). And probably, because you don´t seem to be possessive, don´t want impregnate, procreate and reproduce your genes, right? Hence, you are an open mind hedonistic guy! Smile my fellow: the sheer immediacy of the bodies and sex organs, etcetera, is a delight!!
Now, I have only one last question to help you to be free from the lust, desire and misery (in whatever order) attached to women:

- Do you have the burning desire to find a way to live together (i.e. intimacy of a relationship) with a female (or several...) in peace and harmony in this planet?

Maybe this following links could clarify this question above and motivate you to search your own sincere answer:
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/intimacy.htm
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-beauty.htm
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/sex.htm

*http://www.iub.edu/~kinsey/index.html

self-love aint narcassistic. ive been doing a lot myself lately and it helps. Metta'ing myself, embracing my shadow side with loving kindness. Try to think of love as a spectrum. Lust is coarse. Love is inbetween. Compassion is fine. So the thing you gotta do is see past the illusion of love (which is selfish) and step into compassion. I don't think the 12 step program has a problem.. you should definitely check out self-love, or self-compassion practices.

Another technique that I've tried for my shadow sides or addictions is a tibetan technique called Chod:

you visualize your "Horny or love-struck self" as an entity in you. Give it a shape, a form, a real identity thats separate from you. Then, you visualize him drinking from you or taking your energy. Give him your energy and make sure that he is satisfied and fulfilled, allow him and offer him to take as much as he needs. Radiate your energy with compassion.
This also helps in disembedding or non-associating from the negative habit, recognizing it as "Not you".

I like the one about making a shrine.. turns your lust & love for women into compassion and rezpekt.

The disgusting image thing works for me to an extent. Perhaps get a really ugly photo and put it in your wallet. Something related to STD and disgusting.

Point taken.

ok, well, since you asked for my input three times, here i am. and here's something to start with: can you tell me how it is that these deep feelings (of often unrequited/sometimes requited romantic passion) produce a lot of fear? what are you afraid of?

tarin

Thank you, Tarin. I appreciate you taking some time out of your schedule to attend to my posts. Highly appreciated.



Fears of not getting IT. Fears of being forever closed off from IT. Fears of receiving outright and permanent denial and rejection from getting IT. Fears of losing IT (if having obtained IT to whatever degree).

And by IT, I mean that ultimate eternal peace/fulfillment/bliss/ecstacy that a woman's smile appears to promise. Enchantment/obsession/infatuation ... love.

By IT, I mean that heroin, that drug, that shit that makes my eyes roll in the back of my head. That perfect beauty. That pussy. Them titties. Her voice, her laugh, her moan, her love, her want.

So, to basically repeat myself: There is a significant fear of not obtaining That (and a more significant fear of not being able to/or being forever cutoff from obtaining That). Or if I have obtained That (to whatever degree), there's a significant fear of losing That (and a more significant fear of losing That forever and never, ever getting it back).

you're welcome.



two questions:

1- what is the significance of getting 'That' to 'you'? (that is, what is the relationship that 'you' and 'IT' have?)

2- have you ever had a pce?

tarin

'It' takes all my pain away. 'It' makes up for a lifetime of suffering. Yet, at the same time, my need for 'It' has caused a lot of pain and suffering itself. 'It' demands so much of me. 'It' has me enslaved. I'm addicted to 'It' and it hurts to live without 'It.' 'It' is what fulfills me most and has been a total obsession since I was about 3 or 4 years old making-out with Joice behind the big oak tree in the preschool playground. I've been hooked to 'It' since. I don't want to need 'It' anymore. That is the significance and relationship that I have with 'It.'

And upon investigation of 'It' and myself throughout the years, I have found that I am looking to obtain 'It' not just with females but in several other aspects of life such as with friends, family, strangers, myself ... every human basically (the utter fulfillment aspect of 'It', the expansive love and unity, mutual worship/adulation, bliss, and glory part. I have no desire to seek any erotic bliss/fulfillment from anything or anyone other than beautiful females). The aspect I seek with the females is probably the strongest, most potent form of 'It.' And so I'm preoccupied with that aspect the most.



I wish I could say yes or no. I had an experience 7 years ago (out of the blue, no narcotics or nothing) wherein my whole experience/state of awareness all of a sudden drastically changed from the same-old, same-old suffering-laden/grey-tinted reality to an utterly crisp, clear, vivid, lucid, bright-eyed experiencing of the physical world. I was able to see with startling clarity (at least it seemed startling clear at the time), every aspect of who 'I' was and all the games 'I' had been playing. The world became terrificly inviting. All my worries and pains and inhibitions had dissapeared and I felt immensly sharp-headed and light (as in no extra baggage). I then felt like every woman I passed wanted to have sexual intercourse with me right then and there. I then felt invincible. I felt infinitely grateful. I felt like a God. I felt like Superman. I swore I was enlightened. I felt like everybody in the world was at that moment realizing I was God/Superman. And then slowly and little bit by little bit, I started returning to being a normal human being ... trying and trying futiley to recapture the experience. I dishearteningly returned to the same normal, F'd up boy with all the problems in the world resting heavily on his shoulders.

I don't know if the initial portion of that experience was a PCE or not. I kind of somewhat recall that there might have been the feeling that I was Superman the whole time. I kind of somewhat recall having an ever so slight sense of inhibition during that experience. It's hard to remember.

After coming upon Richard's writing a year or so later, I vowed to be on constant lookout for an unequivocal PCE. It's been 6 years (since coming upon Richard) and so far nada.

What I do know or feel in my heart of hearts is that there has to be something more to 'This.' And by 'This,' I mean Everything that is 'Me.' All the bliss, love, eroticism, fulfillment, unity, greatness, glory, etc ... as well as the heartache, fear, anger, frustration, desire, loneliness, etc, etc. I'm so tired of experiencing Me. I'm tired, fed up, and so open to experiencing life without all or any of 'Me' blocking the view. I've done the best I can do. I'm ready for something new. I'm ready for something better. I want to end the rollercoaster. I want to at least see what's "out there" ... outside of Me.

Yet it's almost like I don't want to just give up. I want to stick around to receive the fulfillment/bliss/exctacy that I've longed for all My life ... what I deserve for this lifetime of pain. What I've desired and strived for with blood, sweat, and tears throughout these long hard years. 'I' want my utlimate reward. 'I' don't want to just ... dissapear ... at least not without tasting/basking in perfect bliss and beauty. 'I' seem to refuse to want to go because of a sense of being short-changed. In short, if someone had a gun to my head with the intent to pull the trigger, I would probably break down and sincerely beg for mercy.

Yet, at the same time, I'm just so tired of all My drama ... and just want out.

On the other hand, it also largey seems to be that 'I' just don't know how to do it. How to end 'It' all. And by 'It' I mean Me and every aspect of Me and every potential or realized glorious/beautiful/blissful/fulfilling/ugly/terrifying/incomplete aspect of Me. I know how to end 'Me' with a revolver, a noose, a knife, etc. ... but not in any way that won't kill this body.

I do so hope you can make a semblance of sense of all this. I'm having a hard time myself trying to do so.

To even further spell it out ... as if it hasn't been spelled out enough.

There's also an uncontrollable attraction to 'It' (perfect beauty, love, ecstacy, eroticism, enchantment, romance, bliss, absolute fulfillment). Every cell in my body wants 'That.' 'It' means everything to me. 'It' hurts bad not to have it. 'It' feels indiscribably good to have it. 'Its' significance to 'me' is as if this body needed it to survive. 'I' am absolutely, completely drawn to 'It.' 'I' am absolutely, completely drawn to her, to woman ... She offers 'That.'

Hey Rich,

You may want to check out David Deida, The Way of The Superior Man is a pretty good read.

Sounds like you're suffering quite a bit and wanting some peace. Yeah?

For immediate relief, perhaps you could start by not looking at women. In your scenario where you're driving in the car and you see two women, all of that "story" that you spun off in your head in reaction to seeing them, could have been avoided had you not seen them. So when driving, instead of looking out of your windows at people, you could look at your hands on the steering wheel. Look at the traffic light while waiting for it to change. Focus on the empty space instead of just the objects in space. Widen your gaze to take in as much of the upper landscape as possible--look at the sky, the tops of the trees. Focus your attention on your breathing while stopped in the car until the light changes. Then cycle through each aspect of the experience of driving in that moment. Feel your hands on the car. The contact your legs and buttocks make with the seat. The air blowing from the A/C or through the windows. The sounds outside, or of music if it is playing.

If you eyes happen to fall upon a hunk of flesh you recognize to be a woman, simply do noting as someone else suggested. Simply say to yourself "seeing." Resist the temptation to then "add" to that seeing. If you observe yourself you will notice that a process occurs in your mind after the act of seeing, where you add in: beauty, desire, lust. Then your mind kicks in with fantasy. If you can be attentive enough to break the chain, then you will simply realize that you have "seen," and all the other stuff will fall away on its own.

It will not, however, fall away if you do not want it to fall away. From your posts it seems that you revel to some extent in your blind lust. I use the word "blind" very carefully here, because though you emphasize "seeing" women throughout your posts as the catalyst for your lust in many cases, you do not really see them as they are. They are projections of your desire regardless of any detail about them in particular. I am not suggesting that desire is only legitimate if one is attracted to a particularity, but it seems to be the case that any reasonably attractive female who is not related to you or geriatric or infantile is "up for grabs." Imagine if you had the same grasping need in relation to friendships with men. If every man you saw seemed to be a great candidate for hanging out and every single time you saw another man you were seized by a desire to befriend him and spend time with him you would, of course, seem quite odd. This same applies here, it's just that your need for women is buttressed by a sexist society that encourages the objectification of them.

In your last and more raw post you exposed a tremendous amount of insecurity that you expect obtaining "IT" through the vehicle of romantic connection to solve. This makes me very sad for you, and for whatever women you end up connecting with, because what you want is impossible. The only way to truly solve this problem is to focus on the sensation level and not on the content level. Only then will you be able to figure out what is really going on with this lust problem, because the lust is just how the sensations are manifesting on the "mind" level. So rather than generating aversion to feelings of lust when they do arise, commit yourself to observing them without judgment and in their totality every single time they arise. If you do, you will soon learn that feelings of lust need not be acted on (a very liberating realization) and that you can survive the tremendous build up energy that is the result without pursuing an external object (women) and without ejaculating. I have often, and probably irreverently, thought that one of the most salient models of Arising and Passing away is the penis. Just as lust arises, it will pass away. You can use your lust as a tool to understand this. Ajahn Chah writes of experiencing overpowering lust as a younger monk; perhaps seeking out some of those works will help you as well.

I feel tremendous sympathy for you because I have experienced some of what you discuss. Being a "woman," so named in the thread, I know this is an unusual admission. But if you dig deeper and observe your lust, you will discover what is causing it to be so out of control (and it is not primordial, it is related to conditions of your own life) and if you discover the cause, you can then discover the cure. But there is no magic bullet, no easy way through, no quick fix, no anti-arousal pill. There is only you and your ability to step back and be a witness to how you are happening in those moments. Perhaps it would help you to realize that you are not your body and just because the body feels arousal doesn't mean you have to 'act,' or feel a certain way. It is simple, really--you look at yourself, "Ah, desire has arisen. Let's see how long it lasts." And you watch, watch, watch, and the next thing you know, poof, it is gone. And it'll arise again. And again, observe. And again, poof, it is gone.

But for the sake of your immediate sanity, start by not focusing on women as much as possible. Not focusing on women will enable you to get some distance. I am not suggesting you be rude. I am suggesting you do not dwell on them until you have a greater understanding of your own mind and how it works in relation to this function of lust.

This should scare the hell out of you. Do you realize that women can use sex to manipulate men? Look at Mel Gibson. Sure he's super narcissist maniac, but look at how miserable he is. If I had a dollar for every guy that fell in love with a woman because of her looks and got burned afterwards I would be a Sultan.

I had a similar experience when I saw a hot real estate lawyer that looked like Marisa Tomei and her slinky dress and bed head in the morning sent my heart pounding like a jackhammer. She worked out of her flat so I met her in the morning to get some documents officially oathed. By the time I concluded my real business with her I just noted and watched my impulsive ego with the watching part of my mind and held it in sympathy and understanding. After about an hour I could feel some suffering because I was projecting an entire fake future with abstract concepts that weren't real. I was planning our wedding. I was having marital arguments with her. I didn't know anything about her personality. If she was a man eater narcissistic psychopath I wouldn't have noticed. After a few hours I started feeling better and I knew so much more about myself (and probably many men).

You need to date for a longer period of time with someone you like and get to know their personality and find that comfortable friendship that can last longer than copulation. If you don't you will have to learn the hard way.

Think of it from the hot person's point of view.

"Boy people really react positively to my looks. I'm really hot. How can a leverage this for my external gain?" They won't use those words but hot people (men or women) are prone to conceit and can be really cold to you if they feel they can replace you for someone as equally hot as them. There's also a danger in that if you act needy towards women or send off constant signs that you're horny they may look at you as weak and pathetic. Men or women love confidence and people who know what they want and aren't easily distracted or obssessed about one aspect of life.

Anyways I hope you find long lasting peace and ease of mind with your choices with no regret. Find a guiding light outside of yourself that is more important and is outside of "self image" and you will be the one that is attractive to others. Then you'll be the one that has to keep the superficial women away instead of chasing after women you superficially like.

Good Luck!

Richard

Sup,



A few questions, some are 'replies', some are just misc (not intended to be answered here, but for investigating on your own, though of course you are welcome to publish them here if you wish). Sit with each one, ponder it, observe if there is internal duplicity or struggle, chase down each "side" of the duplicity, try to ask more questions as you go; attempt to keep a here-and-now mindset as you do (talking out loud helps). Dig and dig and see what you can find:

Does it really take away all of your pain? Does it really make up for a lifetime of suffering (and if so, why are you posting here)? Do you really want to break the bonds you have to something that you suspect takes all of your pain away? What is the pain and suffering it causes "itself?" What does it demand of you, and why, and why do you respond to the urge? Do you think the reason it hurts to live without it is because you suspect that it makes up for a lifetime of suffering? Why do you "need 'It'?" What will happen if you do not have it? Why is the attraction "uncontrollable?" If you had the option between successfully rescuing a bus full of doctors or having it with a woman of choice, which would you choose, and why? (Does this demonstrate an ability to control it, or do you see my point regardless?) Does every cell in your body really want that-- if so, why are you also stating that you want to be rid of it?

Are you afraid that by losing desire, you will lose the ability to partake in sex? Or be unable to enjoy it? Or lose face in the eyes of others (or yourself)? If so, why are these scary?

Talk and listen to yourself, man...you have the answers (and likely a load more questions for yourself, too) if you are sincere with your stated aims.

Trent

Right. The goal is to live as these senses and not be even able to apply any emotional/passionate overtones to what my physical senses are experiencing.



This is all 100% correct. It would be so, so much harder to vent or to seek help or if it was children I was objectifying as sex objects rather than women.



It rises and falls like you said. I might catch a glimpse of a pretty girl and subtle or not-so-subtle passions/feelings/desires might start to rise and then I might get distracted or something else calls for my immediate attention that doesn't involve a pretty girl and the intense erotic/desirous/romantic passions accordingly dissipate ... only to rise again if the appropiate physical conditions manifest themselves (i.e. a cute girl walks in front of my field of vision) and then gradually fall again when those said physical conditions deteriorate (i.e. when she walks out of my field of vision and I carry on doing whatever it was I was doing). Depending on where I am or what I am doing that day, those feelings may rise and fall a hundred times or only a couple times.

I just want to live in society amongst fellow men and women and not have these lovestruck and horndog passions rise again (and fall and rise and fall ... ad infinitum) for the sake of personal and inter-personal peace, freedom, and clarity.

Thank you for your sincere and well-meaning response.

They will never stop arising. All you can do is be mindful and aware of it when it does arise and get used to it so that it doesn't disturb your equanimity. Continue practicing mindfulness. I think Buddhism doesn't even stop these feelings arising because it's repression. Unless this "Actualism" (which I know little of) works, you should desire to develop the skill to be mindful all the time so you can look at reality no matter what shows up including a hot chick. As long as you have an expectation that says you can eliminate sexual desire from arising you will be disappointed. You have to be mindful when sexual desire arises and stay mindful long enough to see the desire pass away. That may take more than a few minutes but that's reality.

Richard

I'd most likely be inclined to have that conviction too had I not come across actualism writings years ago. Check out Daniel Ingram's recent post which has taped dialogue of himself and Tarin talking about actualism.

I read several excerpts and some of it was interesting. His state of being isn't what I am looking for but his idea that true bliss and love and spiritual fulfillment and unity can be found when you make love to a woman with all of your Being is something that I'm not in disagreement with.



Complete and utter peace, yes.

Thank you Trent for responding. Those are indeed good questions and I will take your suggestion and really think about them and toss them around in my head for a while. I may answer some, all or none of those questions on this forum. And please, if any other questions or comments occur to you at any future time concerning this topic, I'd be delighted to read them.

Hey Rich,

It's awesome you're getting so much great feedback here.

Deida's state of being might not resonate with you, but since your question was "has anyone figured this out?" - Deida has written many books on exactly the questions you raise and describes your situation over and over again as quite typical of the masculine identified person. I've heard the same types of things from hundreds of men myself, and none of what you're saying is uncommon at all. This is the "masculine" perspective (to be somewhat stereotypical here)... the masculine person is constantly distracted, tempted, seduced, and tormented by the radiance of the feminine, always in search of complete and utter peace. This is the movement of the masculine in life. Look at the male orgasm: thrust, thrust, cum, sigh, sleep. That's masculine bliss.. emptiness, peace, nothingness. Why is it that the stories of monks going off to live in caves are almost always men? Why are those fighting war and obsessed with death usually men? Why do men get so excited about sports... so that one team can win and one can lose and it can be over, settled and done. (While the torment is that it's never done. And, so next year they have to play the whole damn sports season all over again just to get to find out who wins again.)

Why do women watch cooking shows or soap operas? There's no resolution there, no win/lose conclusion, no final goal, no climaxing orgasm, no superbowl ring, no victory march or death. It's just ongoing stuff... drama... and more drama. And, this is what the feminine identified person wants... the fullness of life, to be immersed in colors and smells and textures, dancing with life, moving with it, feeling their body as full of light and life, to produce children and nurture, etc. To the feminine person... masculine peace looks like death. And, to the masculine person... feminine ecstatic fullness looks like pure drama.

So, what I'm saying is that this isn't something new. It's been figured out many times over... many people have "figured out women..." To a feminine person being "figured out" is equivalent to death and she will do everything to destroy your figuring, while to a masculine person figuring her out is equivalent to peace, victory, climax, and the end of all the drama. You want to come here and figure out women, and the equivalent might be a woman coming on here and wanting to feel men more. It's a different perspective.

But, then... this is all very dualistic, and it all breaks down when investigating identity and what we really are as human beings. So, if this stuff doesn't interest you, I suggest you take more of the wisdom approaches suggested by others and rather than get caught in a long story about it, just start investigating your actual experience and questioning the beliefs and whatnot that makes it up. From that perspective, it's not really about you figuring out women at all, it's about you understanding nature, the universe, and yourself better.

I'm not sure if any of that makes sense. I still recommend Deida, as he has written tons on this subject with way more discernment than what I can express here. Personally, I'm not that into his stuff anymore.

Good luck, be well.

This was alltogether quite funny and I did laugh outloud at several points. Possibly a bit over-stereotyped and over-generalized and over-simplified but ... funny (and possibly has Truth in it). Very compelling/interesting theories.



It does require more investigation, else I wouldn't be having issues with it. I've been investigating it for years now. I must be missing something. Will continue probing until it is ALL figured out and there are no problems anymore in regards to my co-existence with those beautiful creatures.

Thank you for your understanding and support.

Starting to read this book. I'm liking it so far. Nice and blunt and to the point.

Richard

Don't know if you're still reading this forum or whether this issue has been resolved yet. But if not, I recommend 1) not looking at porn, not indulging in looking for/at women in any form of media (and actual reality), and not fantasising. 2) When you feel the urge, go do something else, e.g. go for a run, watch a movie, work, etc. And 3) maybe buy a good, neutral looking toy (no fantasising).

A combination of these three things over 1-3 months will probably lessen your 'neediness' dramatically. Not ever having a girlfriend, not being attractive, and not ever having sex, won't be a problem.