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Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?

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Apologies if this is the wrong forum for this question - I wasn't sure where it would best fit.
I was just listening to Dan Harris's interview with Steve Armstrong.  At the end of the interview, Steve mentions that post-stream entry, there are specific practices one can do in order to develop the ability to repeat fruitions.
I don't have much doubt that I experienced stream entry years ago - cessation, 3 fetters shattered, etc - except that I do not experience fruitions.  From what I've read it seems that some people just don't, but I'm still wondering if anyone knows what practices he's referencing?
Thanks.

RE: Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?
Answer
11/3/17 3:42 AM as a reply to Alex B.
Alex B:
Apologies if this is the wrong forum for this question - I wasn't sure where it would best fit.
I was just listening to Dan Harris's interview with Steve Armstrong.  At the end of the interview, Steve mentions that post-stream entry, there are specific practices one can do in order to develop the ability to repeat fruitions.
I don't have much doubt that I experienced stream entry years ago - cessation, 3 fetters shattered, etc - except that I do not experience fruitions.  From what I've read it seems that some people just don't, but I'm still wondering if anyone knows what practices he's referencing?
Thanks.

Hi Alex! Welcome to DhO.

IME, post SE, the raptures are going on all day long, especially during the immediate weeks after. Also with a wish or resolution made during that time, a fruition will occur quite magically. This capability goes away after progress is made towards the next path. Since it has been years ago, I am not sure what you will be going through now or if it is even possible to call up fruitions. You would probably have to practice again and look at the pattern of experiences to be able to determine the possibilities. Using the 3 fetters to determine SE is problematic, as those 3 can be achieved intellectually and not through meditation work. If I am not wrong, all stream enterers have to 'deal' with these non-stop raptures, but it is possible that some people are entirely unaware. Try meditating again to see what happens and perhaps we can diagnose from there...

Good luck!

RE: Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?
Answer
11/3/17 9:14 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:
Alex B:
Apologies if this is the wrong forum for this question - I wasn't sure where it would best fit.
I was just listening to Dan Harris's interview with Steve Armstrong.  At the end of the interview, Steve mentions that post-stream entry, there are specific practices one can do in order to develop the ability to repeat fruitions.
I don't have much doubt that I experienced stream entry years ago - cessation, 3 fetters shattered, etc - except that I do not experience fruitions.  From what I've read it seems that some people just don't, but I'm still wondering if anyone knows what practices he's referencing?
Thanks.

Hi Alex! Welcome to DhO.

IME, post SE, the raptures are going on all day long, especially during the immediate weeks after. Also with a wish or resolution made during that time, a fruition will occur quite magically. This capability goes away after progress is made towards the next path. Since it has been years ago, I am not sure what you will be going through now or if it is even possible to call up fruitions. You would probably have to practice again and look at the pattern of experiences to be able to determine the possibilities. Using the 3 fetters to determine SE is problematic, as those 3 can be achieved intellectually and not through meditation work. If I am not wrong, all stream enterers have to 'deal' with these non-stop raptures, but it is possible that some people are entirely unaware. Try meditating again to see what happens and perhaps we can diagnose from there...

Good luck!
I'm curious what exactly you mean by raptures? Many years ago (in my teens) I used to do hard concentration practices and would get floating, drifting, flowing sensations sometimes to the point of losing sensation of my body position. I find that now (45 years later) I can't reach that
sensation almost regardless of the meditation state. Were those raptures?
Thanks.

RE: Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?
Answer
11/3/17 9:49 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
hey, thanks for your reply.
to be clearer, i did experience what i suppose are "raptures" - a few weeks of meditating effortlessly for hours a day with consistent tingly bliss waves.  so that was cool. emoticon  it was also 7 years ago.  when that period ended, my practice eventually trickled off as i thought something was wrong and had no idea how to work, and then all this old conditioning came up and well... it was a lot to deal with, having no guidance.
eventually i started dealing with my conditioning, and then moved to a meditation center (goenka, which is where the SE happened).  so in the last 6 months i've done 45 days of retreat as well as 2-3 hours daily practice.  sometimes i can clearly identify where i am in a 'cycle' (either by seeing the dukkha nanas basically in order, or by recognizing that after that i was ok with everything for a week, or whatever), but i don't have a continuous sense of them, or where the cycles start and end.  
so, i'm not particularly looking for a diagnosis.  i've just never before heard/read that fruitions are something that can be trained for if they do not occur naturally, and i'm curious.  
sigh.  it probably wouldn't help anyway, i'm just craving progress.  all right, back to the cushion.

edited to say that i looked up piti to clarify and i think what i described above is more sukkha?  (Just learning how to identify/disentangle factors, sorry.)  anyway, wanted to add that based on the definitions i can find ("Joy, enthusiasm. Sensation of physical and mental lightness given by the purity of consciousness") -   yes, i did experience that 24/7 for weeks.  all the tension in my body was gone, and i was just elated and filled with joy and gratitude most all the time.  

RE: Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?
Answer
11/3/17 9:47 AM as a reply to Alex B.
The main practice I've heard for trying to induce fruitions post-stream entry is the following:

I remember something Kenneth Folk had written on the Dharma Overground on how to check if you have dipped. Flutter you eye lids and watch for the last flutter and the end of the last sensation. I did this, the mind was immediately pulled into something unknown, there is a conk out (fruition) and a wave of bliss 3 seconds later. I also realise that I can will the mind into that build up of energy before that unknown moment in the conk out(fruition) and remain in it. I started meditating in it and I seemed to be powering through and the cycles got faster.

That's by Nikolai Halay on the Hamilton Project , and it also refers to this DhO thread and this Awake Network thread. I think there are some more references in his practice log and this thread. I think I'm working on second path and this doesn't work for me, but it might be interesting to try it out sometime at the end of a sit when you're feeling concentrated and relaxed.  There seem to be a few different variations on whether you roll your eyes back before you flutter the eyelids, whether you focus on a point in the center of your head, etc.


RE: Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?
Answer
11/3/17 9:41 AM as a reply to Daniel Gurzynski.
I'm curious what exactly you mean by raptures? Many years ago (in my teens) I used to do hard concentration practices and would get floating, drifting, flowing sensations sometimes to the point of losing sensation of my body position. I find that now (45 years later) I can't reach that sensation almost regardless of the meditation state. Were those raptures?

i just looked it up and the most concise definition is:  joy, elation, an uplifting state.  Sensation of physical and mental lightness given by the purity of consciousness.  
what you are describing sounds like something else, something that happens in intensive concentration practices.  i don't do those, and so don't have a better diagnosis.  someone else may.

RE: Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?
Answer
11/3/17 11:23 PM as a reply to Alex B.
Alex B:
 i've just never before heard/read that fruitions are something that can be trained for if they do not occur naturally, and i'm curious.  
sigh.  it probably wouldn't help anyway, i'm just craving progress.  all right, back to the cushion.

edited to say that i looked up piti to clarify and i think what i described above is more sukkha?  (Just learning how to identify/disentangle factors, sorry.)  anyway, wanted to add that based on the definitions i can find ("Joy, enthusiasm. Sensation of physical and mental lightness given by the purity of consciousness") -   yes, i did experience that 24/7 for weeks.  all the tension in my body was gone, and i was just elated and filled with joy and gratitude most all the time.  

Raptures (Piti) are anything you sense/feel that is not normal, it can be pleasant/unpleasant/neutral; you may call it the effects of meditation, e.g. during Dark Night, those painful, irritating, itchy vibrations; in A&P or jhana, those pleasant flux, waves, etc. IME they are the most important things to observe during meditation and if you do not experience them, you are probably not in Access Concentration and should continue to lose effort/control and calm yourself down till you are able to. Sukha will be as you described, that is born out of the positive emotions of joy, happiness, gratitude, etc.

I cannot tell you how important it is to lose the craving for progress, although I am much better now, am still wrestling with it hahaha. If you can look practice in this manner, it might help:

"There is no-self, although I cannot fully comprehend or experience it now, I need to know that there is no self meditating, no self progressing, no self getting enlightened. Therefore I will let go of hot coals of suffering, especially with painful gripping onto control, illusions of having control over progress. I shall simply meditate and observe whatever happens."

P.S. I tried various methods of getting fruitions including the above, it will work when the fruition is ready but more likely produce duds when you are not ready, as you are trying too hard. The best way to get a fruition is to not try to get one but keep dropping effort so that it can kick you in. It is best to adopt the attitude that things aren't within your control.

Imagine your meditative state in terms of energy expended. The fruition-giver (path-maker, God or whatever name you like) has 9W. Whenever you are producing more than that, she is powerless to help you. Get to 0 and you are asleep. So your goal is to stay 1-8W. Hypothesis:
  1. Pure awareness (wide consciousness with a still mind) ~ 7W
  2. Craving/Aversion (e.g. attainment) >1W
  3. Specific focus or shifting it  >1W
  4. Investigating sensations >1W
  5. Instructions to mind >1W
  6. Emotions >1W
  7. Thoughts >1W
  8. Etc.
You should understand clearly the objective is to lose things than to do anything at all.

Have fun and enjoy! emoticon

RE: Specific Practices to experience Fruitions on 1P?
Answer
11/4/17 4:11 PM as a reply to Alex B.
Hi Alex,

I've never been able to control fruitions. I've had them come after pumping gas, walking around at a festival, and then every time someone turned a light off and on for a couple days at a retreat, after which they stopped. I also get what I call "microfruitions" where there is like a very, very short interruption of awareness, not long enough that you could really notice but just that you know something has happened. These generally occur when I am practicing more, doing retreats, etc. which isn't right now, 'cause I am really immersed in work. Sometimes they occur when what I would characterize as unskillful thinking arises, then they jump in and interrupt it. I also am not very good at controlling jhana. I've gotten the Culadasa whole body jhanas and pleasure jhanas but couldn't manage the luminous jhanas which seems to be the only kind the orthodox Theravada monks recognize.