Brightmind

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Michael Fogleman, modified 3 Years ago.

Brightmind

Posts: 19 Join Date: 9/15/13 Recent Posts
I wanted to give an announcement letting you know that the mindfulness app based on the instructions of Shinzen Young, Brightmind, has launched in the App Store for iPhone (and iPad). (We're working on an Android coming soon.) I work on the team- let me know if you have any feedback!

We're really proud of our app so far. It's a great way to get people from zero (or twenty!) to sixty quickly. We think it's also a great way to get familiar with Shinzen's system, its breadth and depth.

We also wanted to let you know that our ultimate goal is to help people go deeper than other mindfulness apps which have been created so far. We're starting with bite-sized pieces, but dreaming big. We wanted to get your feedback about which features we should prioritize in order to move towards that goal.

Our current thinking is that 1-on-1 coaching - as an added feature - is the way to go, because a coach can basically do all of the other features (refer to classes, find out what student needs, refer to other reading and videos, etc.), in a dynamic and meaningful way.

What do you think? How can apps like ours help people go deeper with mindfulness and meditation?
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Chris Marti, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 3992 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
If I make a suggestion you subsequently use do I get royalties?    emoticon
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Balint Pinczes, modified 8 Months ago.

Brightmind App election edition

Posts: 56 Join Date: 8/3/18 Recent Posts
Dear Sangha, 

in a generous gesture, the good people behind the Brightmind app have made this gem of a gadget publicly available, free of charge, for a three month period, apparently to soothe agitated spirits during and in the wake of the US elections. (I have no idea what the final date to start the three-month trial will be.)

Most of you will be aware that the app is based on Shinzen Young's approach. It features a neat sequence of audio instructions - basically guided meditations plus a few hints along the way. 

You can register by following the steps as outlined here.  

You might find the two following reviews useful:

What is the Best Meditation App in 2019?
 by Michael Taft
The Most Important Meditation App Ever Created by Daniel Thorston 

Should you be looking for some written material to complement the Brightmind curriculum (or as an alternative to it), these articles by Shinzen are a good place to start. 

May all benefit from this.
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind App election edition

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Balint Pinczes:
Dear Sangha, 

in a generous gesture, the good people behind the Brightmind app have made this gem of a gadget publicly available, free of charge, for a three month period, apparently to soothe agitated spirits during and in the wake of the US elections. (I have no idea what the final date to start the three-month trial will be.)

Most of you will be aware that the app is based on Shinzen Young's approach. It features a neat sequence of audio instructions - basically guided meditations plus a few hints along the way. 

You can register by following the steps as outlined here.  

You might find the two following reviews useful:

What is the Best Meditation App in 2019?
 by Michael Taft
The Most Important Meditation App Ever Created by Daniel Thorston 

Should you be looking for some written material to complement the Brightmind curriculum (or as an alternative to it), these articles by Shinzen are a good place to start. 

May all benefit from this.


  Something a little off about people with a vested financial interest saying, "may all benefit from this." And offering it free for three months also is oddly characterized as "a generous gesture."

   Smells like gain spirit.

t
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Balint Pinczes, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 56 Join Date: 8/3/18 Recent Posts
Dear Terry, 

I might have made the wrong impression. I am in no way affiliated with the app or the people behind it. 

I do like Shinzen's approach though and I also happen to appreciate his teachings. Thus I was happy when I saw the app made available without a paywall a couple of days ago. I promptly subscribed and was happy with what I found. This lead me to share with a few friends (my sister even chided me earlier today for being a bit pushy) and given that I have already profited a lot (in the sense of inspiration, technique and insight) from lurking on DhO and pondering, among others, your amusing and, more often than not, profound posts as well, including more than one with Rumi quotes this very afternoon, I thought it would only be nice to make a contribution and let the people in this community know as some might truly benefit. 

Sorry if my English was a bit pompous. Other than it not being my first language, it must be the narcissism emoticon but on a more serious note, I do stand by the "generous gesture" bit. Adhering to one version of the principle of charity (i.e., in interpreting peoples' motives favourably until being given grounds to reconsider) I have in fact assumed that the humans behind the app had made it available in good faith, with good intentions; and furthermore, I do think that this move was indeed generous on their part. One reason among others is that I think it is entirely possible for someone to complete the whole curriculum contained in the app in three months or less and move on without ever parting with as much as a dime.

The issue of charging for dharma, not to mention copyrighting it, is of course controversial and murky on many levels so I have nothing against you bringing it up. 

Whatever position one assumes in general, the fault in this specific case is all mine of course as I never did properly introduce myself on DhO so my post and motivation could easily be construed as part of a marketing campaign with pecuniary incentive. Shit, I have been planning to do so (and to finally start a practice log) for like ever... but hey, I promise I will in the days to come and if indeed I do, then the defilement known as procrastination will eventually have found its antidote in your critical commentary, for which I shall eternally (but, alas, not permanently) be grateful. 

Yours truly, 

b
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Siavash, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1342 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Don't beat yourself up please! Terry doesn't like Shinzen, so that response was kind of expected!

As a side note, I should add this too, that although brightmind uses Shinzen's teachings and Shinzen's recordings, the company does not belong to Shinzen, and for the work that Shinzen has done there to record guided meditations, he has donated his entire salary and has not received anything (according to Brightmind CEO on Shinzen Young Mindfulness Community facebok group).
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 3992 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Balint, your post read like an ad for Brightmind. I thought that's what it was, too. 
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Balint Pinczes, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 56 Join Date: 8/3/18 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Balint, your post read like an ad for Brightmind. I thought that's what it was, too. 

I guess it did. Thanks for the feedback, Chris!
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Balint Pinczes:
Chris Marti:
Balint, your post read like an ad for Brightmind. I thought that's what it was, too. 

I guess it did. Thanks for the feedback, Chris!

Any posts about any sort of app regardless of what it is, should be labelled with a big "Trigger Warning" on DhO, as it will be faced with immediate and blanket level distrust.  That's at least my experience on DhO.

Even though... DhO is an app.  It's literally a "web application" emoticon

But hey - this actually looks like a good opportunity for us.  Looks like one of the developers for Brightmind, Michael Fogelman, is actually a member here on this site. Maybe he could chime in to address some of the concerns here?  (Though this post is now several years old so there's no telling if he's still active).

And now, emoticonemoticonemoticon
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 780 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
As Dho is free, the amount of participation rises out the great ocean like a pile of garbage. Post counts must go up. Brightmind must be like a Volcano, as with other pay as you go sites. The island builds from underneath but  careful  of the lava.
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Nothing is free. I pay $70 a month for my (snail-like) internet connection!
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
J W:
Nothing is free. I pay $70 a month for my (snail-like) internet connection!

my snail like connection costs more...

and computers! if just one technological improvement that I would wish for came true, iI'd want it to be a waterproof macbook...

t
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 3992 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Are you saying our posts are flotsam and jetsam?
A. Dietrich Ringle, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 780 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
It was a general comparison that seemed pleasing to me. It's the age that we live in.
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Balint Pinczes:
Chris Marti:
Balint, your post read like an ad for Brightmind. I thought that's what it was, too. 

I guess it did. Thanks for the feedback, Chris!

I can see how your original post could be taken that way, but your subsequent post cleared it right up for me, you seem like a genuine person and meant no harm at all by this post emoticon

Happy meditating!
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Siavash:
Don't beat yourself up please! Terry doesn't like Shinzen, so that response was kind of expected!

As a side note, I should add this too, that although brightmind uses Shinzen's teachings and Shinzen's recordings, the company does not belong to Shinzen, and for the work that Shinzen has done there to record guided meditations, he has donated his entire salary and has not received anything (according to Brightmind CEO on Shinzen Young Mindfulness Community facebok group).


aloha siavash.

    I could disappoint your expectations, my friend. I don't dislike sy, he isn't on my radar at all. I oppose individual ideas he is said to promote, but have never actually run across any of his work, though obviously I haven't looked. If shinzen actually claimed he could endure torture for thirty days without reacting,as has been discussed here, I totally think I could make him tap out in 3 seconds with a wrist lock or elbow crank.

   My objection was to the promotion of  a commercial product. I can't call commercial products dharma related. It's a truth thing.

terry
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
Siavash:
Don't beat yourself up please! Terry doesn't like Shinzen, so that response was kind of expected!

As a side note, I should add this too, that although brightmind uses Shinzen's teachings and Shinzen's recordings, the company does not belong to Shinzen, and for the work that Shinzen has done there to record guided meditations, he has donated his entire salary and has not received anything (according to Brightmind CEO on Shinzen Young Mindfulness Community facebok group).


aloha siavash.

    I could disappoint your expectations, my friend. I don't dislike sy, he isn't on my radar at all. I oppose individual ideas he is said to promote, but have never actually run across any of his work, though obviously I haven't looked. If shinzen actually claimed he could endure torture for thirty days without reacting,as has been discussed here, I totally think I could make him tap out in 3 seconds with a wrist lock or elbow crank.

   My objection was to the promotion of  a commercial product. I can't call commercial products dharma related. It's a truth thing.

terry


donating your entire salary "earned" for "dharma" promotion is as generous as a free trial for three months...
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Siavash, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1342 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
Hi terry,

If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.

(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Siavash:
Hi terry,

If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.

(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)


thanks, dan...
being as I use this service, if dan wants to ask me for a contribution I will send him a check, no problem...

you and I are providing our insights for free, bra, as well...computers and internet access are not cheap...it's a collective, communal effort, uncontaminated by greed for money...

t
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Siavash:
Hi terry,

If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.

(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)
To take your question and extend it a bit... let's take the example of monasteries, dharma centers, or really any sort of spiritual organization where there is a resident teacher of some sort.  

I would argue that most of us here have benefitted in some way from some sort of center like this, whether we have paid for classes or gotten them for free. And whether that monastery is modern or existed 2,000 years ago.  Those teachers still need(ed) to be able to eat.  My personal experience with this is that these teachers by and large do NOT make very much money, at all.  Granted, it is somewhat limited but I have been involved in administrative duties at one such center.

For example, the center I have worked with pays their resident teacher around $300 a month, which is all the money they have left over each month after paying rent. This is someone who is putting in 20-30 hours a week teaching classes.  It's hardly a lucrative profession.
Also keep in mind, for many of these organizations, everything is actually donation based, it may just be a suggested amount. They will never turn someone away for lack of money.

Of course, could take the stance that we would be better off without any such organizations and that we should live in a moneyless society. Well that would be great, wouldn't it emoticon

It's not a trivial point that DhO is completely free.  I think it's a great thing and we are lucky to have someone like Dan who has the resources and the time to have put this thing together. (Though I don't think Dan is sacrificing any of his vacation time for this site - at least, I hope he's not!)

There will always be people acting selfishly and profiting off Dharma for their own personal gain.  But to say "anyone receiving any money for anything Dharma-related is immoral" is just as extreme as saying "there are no people out there trying to misuse these teachings".
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
J W:
Siavash:
Hi terry,

If we agree that having apps and websites about meditation, in general is a good thing (As mentioned above, this very DhO is just one of those apps), then there is an issue here: It requires a lot of money to create each one of these. Who should pay those people that create these apps? They need to eat.

(Let's forget that there is one Daniel Ingram that makes it all free and instead of paying for his vacation, pays for this editor that I am typing in.)
To take your question and extend it a bit... let's take the example of monasteries, dharma centers, or really any sort of spiritual organization where there is a resident teacher of some sort.  

I would argue that most of us here have benefitted in some way from some sort of center like this, whether we have paid for classes or gotten them for free. And whether that monastery is modern or existed 2,000 years ago.  Those teachers still need(ed) to be able to eat.  My personal experience with this is that these teachers by and large do NOT make very much money, at all.  Granted, it is somewhat limited but I have been involved in administrative duties at one such center.

For example, the center I have worked with pays their resident teacher around $300 a month, which is all the money they have left over each month after paying rent. This is someone who is putting in 20-30 hours a week teaching classes.  It's hardly a lucrative profession.
Also keep in mind, for many of these organizations, everything is actually donation based, it may just be a suggested amount. They will never turn someone away for lack of money.

Of course, could take the stance that we would be better off without any such organizations and that we should live in a moneyless society. Well that would be great, wouldn't it emoticon

It's not a trivial point that DhO is completely free.  I think it's a great thing and we are lucky to have someone like Dan who has the resources and the time to have put this thing together. (Though I don't think Dan is sacrificing any of his vacation time for this site - at least, I hope he's not!)

There will always be people acting selfishly and profiting off Dharma for their own personal gain.  But to say "anyone receiving any money for anything Dharma-related is immoral" is just as extreme as saying "there are no people out there trying to misuse these teachings".

   I'm with zen, as huang po points out, "there are no zen teachers."  When his students said, well, look at you, he replied, "I didn't say there is no zen, only that there are no zen teachers."

   To me a teacher - and I feel the same about psychotherapists - is a friend, and a friend doesn't charge you for their friendship. I have found generally that people who practice these arts for money are not accomplished adepts, but ongoing aspirants. Drug counselors are generally addicts; marriage counselors generally divorced. If you profit from their assistance, you owe them nothing, for you have paid them, they have received compensation and deserve no friendship, loyalty, or support in any ongoing personal, hiuman, social way. This is functionally an alienated and alienating society. A society in which friends were adequate to these human needs is not necessarily a moneyless society, though such is not to be sneered at either. In rural districts we make do with each other for all but hard cases. People with a little more wisdom than average are consulted, offhand, not a big deal, and in a context where everyone knows everyone.

   I also feel that meditation is not complicated, that one can read a sutta and meditate forthwith without missing anything. "Teachers" are more like coaches, providing encouragement and facilities. I think this can be overdone, like triathletes, who begin with an idea to improve overall fitness and end up mindlessly persuing personal bests in meaningless exercise, to their physical, mental and emotional detriment, and an undermining of healthy social functioning.

   The attractions of fame and gain stalk us all the time in every endeavor.

terry



from "the way of chuang tzu" trans thomas merton


When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets --
He is out of his mind!
His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him.
He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting--
And the need to win drains him of power.



   

terry

   

   
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Chris Marti, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 3992 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
A drug counselor, a marriage counselor, a triathlete, and a Zen teacher walk into a bar...
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
A drug counselor, a marriage counselor, a triathlete, and a Zen teacher walk into a bar...


Did I tell you the one about the 3 legged dog? He walks into a bar and says to the bartender, "I'm looking for the man who shot my pa(w)."
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Siavash, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1342 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
 I also feel that meditation is not complicated, that one can read a sutta and meditate forthwith without missing anything.

Those sites that contain these suttas, require lots of money to run.
That copy paste function to work, requires lots of money and work.
Same with inks and papers and those poor people that should type those "wise" words.
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Siavash:
 I also feel that meditation is not complicated, that one can read a sutta and meditate forthwith without missing anything.

Those sites that contain these suttas, require lots of money to run.
That copy paste function to work, requires lots of money and work.
Same with inks and papers and those poor people that should type those "wise" words.


   So, if I send you my address you will send me a check to help compensate me for my expenses?

   Or would I need to sell you something?

   I respect and honor the people who provide those sites for free, and I use them. I understand they are generous, spiritual people. God bless us.

   I despise google, facebook and twitter for "monetizing" the internet and selling out every value society holds dear, and destroying all our institutions. You don't own a phone, your phone owns you.

   Lets keep these spiritual people poor, it's where they belong. The more publicly spiritual, the more poor they should be. Homeless.

terry
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Siavash, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1342 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
So, if I send you my address you will send me a check to help compensate me for my expenses?

If I had, I'd sent it. That's how I've lived so far (although I didn't always feel comfortable about doing it).

I respect and honor the people who provide those sites for free, and I use them. I understand they are generous, spiritual people. God bless us.

All I am saying, is that, just because an app or a service charges money, doesn't mean that the people behind it are evils looking for fame and gain. There are a lot of them that are looking for fame and gain, no question, but how we can know people's intentions, and simply say it's bad because money is envolved? People need to eat.

I despise google, facebook and twitter for "monetizing" the internet and selling out every value society holds dear, and destroying all our institutions. You don't own a phone, your phone owns you.

Sure. I too am strongly against these power-people that use humanity and our shared resources for their own greed. Let's see the difference.

Lets keep these spiritual people poor, it's where they belong. The more publicly spiritual, the more poor they should be. Homeless.

I'd say, let's expect fairness and honesty and respect. I can't tell someone else how they should live their lives.
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Siavash:
So, if I send you my address you will send me a check to help compensate me for my expenses?

If I had, I'd sent it. That's how I've lived so far (although I didn't always feel comfortable about doing it).

I respect and honor the people who provide those sites for free, and I use them. I understand they are generous, spiritual people. God bless us.

All I am saying, is that, just because an app or a service charges money, doesn't mean that the people behind it are evils looking for fame and gain. There are a lot of them that are looking for fame and gain, no question, but how we can know people's intentions, and simply say it's bad because money is envolved? People need to eat.

I despise google, facebook and twitter for "monetizing" the internet and selling out every value society holds dear, and destroying all our institutions. You don't own a phone, your phone owns you.

Sure. I too am strongly against these power-people that use humanity and our shared resources for their own greed. Let's see the difference.

Lets keep these spiritual people poor, it's where they belong. The more publicly spiritual, the more poor they should be. Homeless.

I'd say, let's expect fairness and honesty and respect. I can't tell someone else how they should live their lives.


   Yes people need to eat. A couple of handfuls of grain per day.

   Human greed is universal, the desire for fame and gain is human. We want to live, we want to see and be seen. The point is not letting animal needs defile our spirituality, which in fact cannot be defiled, sold, bought or expressed.

   There is no profit in being a spiritual adept. In fact, it costs you everything.

t
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Siavash, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1342 Join Date: 5/5/19 Recent Posts
The point is not letting animal needs defile our spirituality

I don't think of any separation between sprituality and non-sprituality. It's either all-spritual or there is no sprituality.

Instead, I think the question needs to be: Is it fair and moral or not.
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Siavash:
The point is not letting animal needs defile our spirituality

I don't think of any separation between sprituality and non-sprituality. It's either all-spritual or there is no sprituality.

Instead, I think the question needs to be: Is it fair and moral or not.

   I didn't say there was a separation. Animal needs and spirituality coexist; that is, one could not exist without the other. It's a tension, as it were. Form and emptiness.

   As a line of separation, whether something is fair or not, moral or not, is a measure of how conventional one's thinking is. 
   
terry



― Søren Kierkegaard, Either/Or: A Fragment of Life

“I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations — one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it — you will regret both.”

*************

“If you marry, you will regret it; if you do not marry, you will also regret it; if you marry or do not marry, you will regret both; Laugh at the world’s follies, you will regret it, weep over them, you will also regret that; laugh at the world’s follies or weep over them, you will regret both; whether you laugh at the world’s follies or weep over them, you will regret both. Believe a woman, you will regret it, believe her not, you will also regret that; believe a woman or believe her not, you will regret both; whether you believe a woman or believe her not, you will regret both. Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, and you will also regret that; hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both. This, gentlemen, is the sum and substance of all philosophy.”
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
[quote=terry
   There is no profit in being a spiritual adept. In fact, it costs you everything.

t/quote]

Costs you everything? Sounds a bit like you're advocating for asceticism here.
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
[quote=terry
]   
   To me a teacher - and I feel the same about psychotherapists - is a friend, and a friend doesn't charge you for their friendship.

I personally would feel a bit odd if I was not paying my therapist to sit and listen to me talk for 45 minutes.  One of the reasons I see a therapist is so that I spare my wife and close friends the agony of listening to me whine about things all the time.

I can afford it.  For people who can't afford mental health services, there are programs for that.

And to flip that statement - would you want your friend to starve?

"Drug counselors are generally addicts; marriage counselors generally divorced."

I'm not sure if this is even a little bit accurate...
Of course, you can make whatever generalizations you want, there's nothing I could, or want to, say or do to change your opinions.
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
J W:
[quote=terry
]   
   To me a teacher - and I feel the same about psychotherapists - is a friend, and a friend doesn't charge you for their friendship.

I personally would feel a bit odd if I was not paying my therapist to sit and listen to me talk for 45 minutes.  One of the reasons I see a therapist is so that I spare my wife and close friends the agony of listening to me whine about things all the time.

I can afford it.  For people who can't afford mental health services, there are programs for that.

And to flip that statement - would you want your friend to starve?

"Drug counselors are generally addicts; marriage counselors generally divorced."

I'm not sure if this is even a little bit accurate...
Of course, you can make whatever generalizations you want, there's nothing I could, or want to, say or do to change your opinions.

   My friends don't starve.

   You can doubt all you want, without evidence. Facts and truth are not opinions. I think the biggest problem this society has, bar none, is that they can't distinguish truth from lies. Lack of practice, no doubt.

   As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.

t
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
"You can doubt all you want, without evidence. Facts and truth are not opinions. I think the biggest problem this society has, bar none, is that they can't distinguish truth from lies. Lack of practice, no doubt.

   As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.

t"

Lol, and what evidence do you have that "marriage counselors are generally divorced"?

My comment about whining was an attempt at a joke, and a bad one apparently, as you appear to have taken it personally. emoticon
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
J W:
"You can doubt all you want, without evidence. Facts and truth are not opinions. I think the biggest problem this society has, bar none, is that they can't distinguish truth from lies. Lack of practice, no doubt.

   As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.

t"

Lol, and what evidence do you have that "marriage counselors are generally divorced"?

My comment about whining was an attempt at a joke, and a bad one apparently, as you appear to have taken it personally. emoticon



    A recent study (mccoy and aamodt), which admittedly underreports, doesn't address marriage counselors directly but listed occupational therapists as having a divorce rate of 24.2% My assertion was based on general statistics and some anecdotal evidence - I have a cousin, divorced, mariiage counselor, and her husband the same. They believe, and their peers believe, that being divorced makes them better counselors. Ditto drug counselors, who in many jurisdictions are required to be ex addicts (and they generally believe that once an addict always an addict). I expect the number of divorces among marriage counselors to be higher than 25%. But perhaps "most" was an exaggeration in making the point. Perhaps not. Make of it what you will.

   Sorry I didn't get the joke. Having actually lived in a ghetto for a year (five points, denver) I knew lots of mentally ill people who had no one to care for them, or listen to them. The situation, please understand, is truly dire and exacerbated like so many social shortfalls are by the pandemic. 

   The situation in nursing homes is enough to make me cry.

terry




https://apnews.com/article/nursing-homes-neglect-death-surge-3b74a2202140c5a6b5cf05cdf0ea4f32
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. It seems like you have had some very real and difficult experiences in your life and I don't doubt that those experiences have provided you with a unique and raw look into the truth of suffering. I do hope that I can learn from your experience and the experience of others, especially those who are less privileged, in some way, so that I can act better and more effectively in lessening the suffering of those who suffer the most. (And by that I mean, eliminating my own delusions.) This is the goal of my practice.  

Don't worry about the joke, and I understand your use of hyperbole. I think what we had here was a communication breakdown, which is basically unavoidable, especially when you are communicating over the internet and not face to face.

Have a wonderful weekend emoticon
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
J W:
I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. It seems like you have had some very real and difficult experiences in your life and I don't doubt that those experiences have provided you with a unique and raw look into the truth of suffering. I do hope that I can learn from your experience and the experience of others, especially those who are less privileged, in some way, so that I can act better and more effectively in lessening the suffering of those who suffer the most. (And by that I mean, eliminating my own delusions.) This is the goal of my practice.  

Don't worry about the joke, and I understand your use of hyperbole. I think what we had here was a communication breakdown, which is basically unavoidable, especially when you are communicating over the internet and not face to face.

Have a wonderful weekend emoticon


   Any antagonism is hyperbolic, my friend. I appreciate your willingness to try to keep me honest. I usually do have better references than anecdotal evidence, and you caught me. 

   One should pay attention to the breakdowns, among thoughtful people they provide material for reflection. The spaces are often more significant than the marks, as we take the time and space to let things work themselves out.

   I appreciate your good will. It makes honest discussion possible and also warms the heart.

   I remember that as ronald reagan's progressive senile dementia loosened his handlers' grip on him, he floated the idea one time that the world would be a much better place if we were invaded by aliens and the whole world had to band together to fight the common enemy. Now his vision has come to pass and we have the virus attacking all without regard to race, creed or origin (also global warming and the larger theme of drowning in our own effluvia). The current crisis ultimately is a crisis of good will, of people using their differences as strengths to fight a common enemy, the deterioration of our global social, moral, spiritual and physical environment.

   Polarization is so 2020.

terry
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry:
J W:
[quote=terry
]   
   To me a teacher - and I feel the same about psychotherapists - is a friend, and a friend doesn't charge you for their friendship.

I personally would feel a bit odd if I was not paying my therapist to sit and listen to me talk for 45 minutes.  One of the reasons I see a therapist is so that I spare my wife and close friends the agony of listening to me whine about things all the time.

I can afford it.  For people who can't afford mental health services, there are programs for that.

And to flip that statement - would you want your friend to starve?

"Drug counselors are generally addicts; marriage counselors generally divorced."

I'm not sure if this is even a little bit accurate...
Of course, you can make whatever generalizations you want, there's nothing I could, or want to, say or do to change your opinions.

   My friends don't starve.

   You can doubt all you want, without evidence. Facts and truth are not opinions. I think the biggest problem this society has, bar none, is that they can't distinguish truth from lies. Lack of practice, no doubt.

   As for you having to pay people to listen to you whine, that's rather like paying a prostitute. If you need therapy and have no wise friends, I guess you are out of luck.

t


    "For people who can't afford mental health services, there are programs for that."

This smells like white privelege...you can't really be this naive...

imagine one in five americans getting effective psychotherpy...

in china the number is less than one in a hundred... 


t




Mental illnesses are common in the United States. Nearly one in five U.S. adults live with a mental illness (51.5 million in 2019). Mental illnesses include many different conditions that vary in degree of severity, ranging from mild to moderate to severe. Nov 2, 2020

NIMH » Mental Illness
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J W, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 452 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
[quote=

    "For people who can't afford mental health services, there are programs for that."

This smells like white privelege...you can't really be this naive...

imagine one in five americans getting effective psychotherpy...

in china the number is less than one in a hundred... 


t]
Alright, now we're talking T.  I think you and I actually agree on a great deal of things.  Yes, I consider myself to be privileged and yes, I am white.  

Do I think as a society we should have better access to mental health services and make those services more available to the underprivileged? Absolutely.

Does that mean that no programs like this exist at all? No.

We share the same dream, T. Perhaps we just disagree on how to get there. And, perhaps, there is truth in more than one path.
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
J W:
[quote=

    "For people who can't afford mental health services, there are programs for that."

This smells like white privelege...you can't really be this naive...

imagine one in five americans getting effective psychotherpy...

in china the number is less than one in a hundred... 


t]
Alright, now we're talking T.  I think you and I actually agree on a great deal of things.  Yes, I consider myself to be privileged and yes, I am white.  

Do I think as a society we should have better access to mental health services and make those services more available to the underprivileged? Absolutely.

Does that mean that no programs like this exist at all? No.

We share the same dream, T. Perhaps we just disagree on how to get there. And, perhaps, there is truth in more than one path.


   Better access to mental health care - such as it is - is not the issue. The absence of social networks in our dystopia and consequent dependence on simulacra of caring only leads to more mental illness as root causes are papered over and treatments declared to be successes when they only aggravate the problem.

   We share the same dream in the sense that I am in your dream and you are in mine. My only solution to problems, other than emergency interventions, is to recognize them and trust they will work out. Not actually expecting them to, though.

   When noah is your captain, you have nothing to worry about.

terry
Monsoon Frog, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 58 Join Date: 3/16/14 Recent Posts
terry:

aloha siavash.

    I could disappoint your expectations, my friend. I don't dislike sy, he isn't on my radar at all. I oppose individual ideas he is said to promote, but have never actually run across any of his work, though obviously I haven't looked. If shinzen actually claimed he could endure torture for thirty days without reacting,as has been discussed here, I totally think I could make him tap out in 3 seconds with a wrist lock or elbow crank.

I'm not clear on SY's claims or aspirations regarding pain and torture as I've only read a few things authored by him and listened to/viewed  a few talks/videos. One of the latter was an interview (perhaps it was 'Buddha at the Gas Pump"?) wherein SY speculated that at his present level of liberation he would not be immune from the suffering induced by being physically tortured.

However he speculated that if he underwent a super intense amplification of his meditation practice he could condense years of practice into months (weeks?) after which he’d have attained to a place of development wherein he’d be able to endure the pain of physical torture of the type meted out by (hypothetical) radical militant jihadists.

I don’t know what if any precedent exists for that sort of thing or what the record books have on file regarding enduring physical torture with complete equanimity (I imagine the equanimity would need to be complete or things would go south rapidly).   

There is the monk Thích Quảng Đức’s self immolation event in protest of the Diệm regime in Vietnam. Some people I’ve discussed this with (including a dentist friend who routinely drills into the nerves of patients’ mouths and has a front row seat to their suffering - using anesthesia of course) do not sahre my sense of awe. They dismiss self immolation by saying the conflagration destroys all the nerves instantly so that a burning monk feels no pain. Since I have no knowledge of such things and being an agreeable chap I give them the benefit of the doubt and inquire instead about having 5 gallons of petrol poured over oneself while retaining a relaxed equanimous nonplussed demeanor despite any respiratory or other bodily responses. They remain predictably unimpressed. Some people just have very high standards when it comes to the requirements of enduring physcial pain.


*Maybe the Gestapo had a good understanding of this type of potential? Or the Soviets?
From what I've read of the Soviet Union’s Great Terror the professional torturer's - for ex. the NKVD officials employed in the Lubyanka's and Sukhanovskaya's cellars - would themselves be routinely purged as part of the purge's quota system. They well knew from direct experience that the end result was everyone succumbed to torture and signed the false confession. So when it came their turn they’d immediately ask for the pen and avoid the unpleasantries resulting from resisting.
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terry, modified 8 Months ago.

RE: Brightmind

Posts: 1718 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Balint Pinczes:
Dear Terry, 

I might have made the wrong impression. I am in no way affiliated with the app or the people behind it. 

I do like Shinzen's approach though and I also happen to appreciate his teachings. Thus I was happy when I saw the app made available without a paywall a couple of days ago. I promptly subscribed and was happy with what I found. This lead me to share with a few friends (my sister even chided me earlier today for being a bit pushy) and given that I have already profited a lot (in the sense of inspiration, technique and insight) from lurking on DhO and pondering, among others, your amusing and, more often than not, profound posts as well, including more than one with Rumi quotes this very afternoon, I thought it would only be nice to make a contribution and let the people in this community know as some might truly benefit. 

Sorry if my English was a bit pompous. Other than it not being my first language, it must be the narcissism emoticon but on a more serious note, I do stand by the "generous gesture" bit. Adhering to one version of the principle of charity (i.e., in interpreting peoples' motives favourably until being given grounds to reconsider) I have in fact assumed that the humans behind the app had made it available in good faith, with good intentions; and furthermore, I do think that this move was indeed generous on their part. One reason among others is that I think it is entirely possible for someone to complete the whole curriculum contained in the app in three months or less and move on without ever parting with as much as a dime.

The issue of charging for dharma, not to mention copyrighting it, is of course controversial and murky on many levels so I have nothing against you bringing it up. 

Whatever position one assumes in general, the fault in this specific case is all mine of course as I never did properly introduce myself on DhO so my post and motivation could easily be construed as part of a marketing campaign with pecuniary incentive. Shit, I have been planning to do so (and to finally start a practice log) for like ever... but hey, I promise I will in the days to come and if indeed I do, then the defilement known as procrastination will eventually have found its antidote in your critical commentary, for which I shall eternally (but, alas, not permanently) be grateful. 

Yours truly, 

b


    "The issue of charging for the dharma, not to mention copywriting it" is not controversial in my view. It always has that odor.

t