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Monk in the Mountain (Log)

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Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/8/17 3:13 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/8/17 9:42 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 12/8/17 10:09 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) jonjohn 12/8/17 2:29 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 12/8/17 2:33 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/8/17 11:56 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bhumi 12/9/17 5:51 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/10/17 5:21 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 12/10/17 6:37 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/10/17 6:46 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 12/10/17 9:57 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/10/17 10:06 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 12/10/17 11:28 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/10/17 11:36 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/15/17 9:40 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Adam M 12/15/17 11:06 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/16/17 1:14 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Adam M 12/16/17 3:01 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 12/16/17 4:28 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 12/16/17 8:34 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Adam M 12/17/17 3:08 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 2/26/18 4:17 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/21/18 1:22 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/21/18 1:59 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/21/18 2:08 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/21/18 2:21 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/21/18 10:06 PM
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RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/24/18 10:18 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/24/18 10:39 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/24/18 10:45 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 3/24/18 4:46 PM
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RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/24/18 7:17 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/25/18 10:26 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/25/18 10:33 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/25/18 11:40 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 3/25/18 11:35 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/25/18 12:04 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/25/18 2:21 PM
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RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/26/18 2:16 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/26/18 5:35 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 3/26/18 5:43 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/28/18 9:32 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/3/18 5:30 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Nick O 4/3/18 8:21 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 4/3/18 8:49 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Nick O 4/3/18 12:37 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 4/3/18 1:15 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/8/18 2:03 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 4/8/18 10:59 PM
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RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 4/9/18 1:06 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/9/18 2:36 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 4/9/18 3:55 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/9/18 4:56 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 4/9/18 4:16 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/9/18 4:59 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Rebecca P 4/9/18 6:45 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/10/18 4:47 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 4/10/18 6:30 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/10/18 6:58 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Rebecca P 4/10/18 8:46 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/10/18 11:20 AM
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RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 5/8/18 4:26 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 5/1/18 4:07 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 5/1/18 6:14 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 5/1/18 6:22 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 5/1/18 8:13 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 5/1/18 2:23 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 5/1/18 3:29 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 5/1/18 6:54 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 5/2/18 5:57 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 5/2/18 7:22 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Noah D 5/2/18 8:08 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Chris Marti 5/2/18 9:52 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) shargrol 5/2/18 10:00 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 5/2/18 11:16 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 5/8/18 4:42 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 5/4/18 5:44 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 5/4/18 11:34 AM
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RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bigbird 5/8/18 6:22 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 4/9/18 3:52 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Francis 3/24/18 10:21 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/25/18 7:26 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Jordi 3/25/18 9:42 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) seth tapper 3/23/18 11:48 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Scott 3/23/18 12:57 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/24/18 6:29 AM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Bruno Loff 3/21/18 4:29 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Lars 3/21/18 7:13 PM
RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log) Yilun Ong 3/21/18 10:03 PM
Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/8/17 3:13 AM
Decided to stop using the thousands of repair manuals out there to maintain this unique machine I have here. Sure took a long while to realize that instead of reducing suffering, mind is digging at faults perceived from other machines to repair, even when there is nothing there. This need to have something to repair is the biggest problem now, leaving an energetic wreck in its wake, perhaps from over-meditation. May I ask what the heck’s with asking what is wrong when the birds are chirping and the leaves are rustling? AND most important of all, the machine is singing just fine?

To live by 3 simple rules:
  1. Live in the moment. Every moment.
  2. Pay attention. Pay a lot of attention to events around suffering.
  3. Investigate by getting intimate with it.
Since the brain/mind is already overloaded with Dharma, I will not purposefully enforce any rules, guidelines or practices. Meditation will not even involve the basic 3Cs, mind will watch and think what it wants to. There will be no metta practice, I am curious if compassion is a natural outcome or is it ‘forced’, it being seen as a ‘good’ moral. The one problem I see with being a monk is that some problems (Greed/Lust/Anger/etc.) need to be summoned. Having struggled to find ill-will other than for insects that assault this body, it cannot be found unless it is manufactured. Shall watch how this animal behaves through it all. It hasn’t killed an ant for months, let’s see if that will persist on its own.

The kindest abbot in the world gives his blessings to however I’d like to practice. This means I am freed from all activities, including chanting, alms and even cleaning myself (He hasn’t said that yet). Will be interesting to see how Wrong Action is lived when there is almost a complete freedom from norms. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/8/17 9:42 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Fon:

Note: I'm only talking about Theravadan monasteries. 

Being a monk is like practicing in Hardcore mode.

Yes a lot of lifes problems are gone, you don't worry about money or worldly problems. It is a life where you really can fully apply yourself to practicing from the point you wake up until the point you go to sleep, without having too many situations in which doing so would be dangerous or unpractical. You do not have to think about tomorrow or the past a great deal (although your mind will want to). You have very little worries. Just living in the monastery your mind will automatically quieten. You will (mostly) be surrounded by like-minded dhamma people and forge relationships and help each other practice.
You will have the opportunity to meet and talk with highly attained monks in situations that many lay people would not easily get due to the issue regarding a monk discussing attainments with laity.

Yes, (usually) you have a lot of time to meditate , to study dhamma. Because of living in that system and the Vinaya, your conduct and Sila will be tend toward excellent and provide a foundation from which you practice.You will inspire Sila in others, you will inspire others to practice just by them seeing what you are doing. You can focus your entire life towards the Dhamma.

Sounds good.. from the perspective of Lay life. When you have been there a while, days, weeks, months, years - it is HARD. Your freedom and all the little nice things from lay life are gone. You are on Hardcore mode now. You are not there just to do some good meditation, get some attainments, you are there to develop wholesome qualities and have your unwholesome qualities removed.  

As a lay person you may normally practice when you are feeling good, well refreshed, not hungry, not thirsty, the room temperature just right.. as a monk you will be in a community of people you may not always agree with, You will sometimes be very tired, you will sometimes be very hungry, hot, cold, sick, you will be bossed around and told to do things and it will be unpleasant! You will at times have to do unpleasant physical labour. Your comforts gone. The delusions you have in lay life of how 'I am not that attached to much at all in the world' will be revealed!! You will realise that it was all delusion, and that in reality you only thought that because you still had all the nice little things. The nice cup of coffee when you want. The snack. The entertainment. The pleasant walk outside. Freedom. There isn't the 'in another 30 days the retreat ends and I'll go do X'.. This is it. Forever (or until you quit). Often it may feel like your duties and work get in the way of your own formal practice. You will begin to think that maybe the monks life isn't for you. How being a laymen and practice would be really nice......    you could walk into a shop and buy whatever you liked.. like a nice cold pepsi whenever you felt like it. Instead of waiting until you happen to be given one.

As you follow the monastery rules and the Vinaya , you will see your flaws. You will see the Kilesa. You will ooze desire and aversion. 

"I" don't want to do this. "I" am too tired. "I" shouldn't be spoken to like that. "I" think my way is better, "I" don't think he is practicing the way he should. 

You have to let go of your likes and dislikes. 

You can either go with these thoughts and suffer endlessly as some do, or you can observe them.

Your task is to ride it just as you would normally, observe the mind, observe the body, see the characteristics. Follow the 8 fold path.

To be clear, as others have said most Theravadan monasteries do very little towards actually practicing or meditating.
This is because in Buddhist countries they serve more a community purpose, ceremonies, marriages, deaths, blessings. The 'religious stuff'. Buddhism is part of the culture. Some people become monks just because its a better life than starving and being poor, some even do it because they become rich, some do it to get an education. The Vinaya is often not strictly followed. Being there you can easily begin breaking the rules.. and before long disrobe.

Then there are the other type, the small minority, the forest monasteries or monasteries where there are those that actually do practice. The names of many are well known around the world. In these places most people practice, they are strict, they are hard. 

As a trend in buddhist countries, the number of places that tend towards being the 1st type is increasing as the modern world creeps in, and the 2nd types are gradually becoming more like the 1st types. But there are still many places left that have a solid training.

There is however no perfect place. You may find somewhere that is a great location but has too many non-serious monks, or a very serious training place that is in a terrible environment. Within the monks there may be a lot of hierarchy issues, bossing around, people letting power go to their heads, jealously. Mean monks. Difficult lay people. You just have to ask yourself 'Is this good enough, is it okay?' Everywhere will have its problems.
You will have to deal with the religious stuff, the chanting, things you will not agree with - but remember, this is their religion.. if it wasn't for doing such things (from which the lay people gain faith and at the least train their sila) - you get your requisites, you are fed and the monastery has buildings. 
It isn't just about the monks. The monks and the lay people must work together. 

In the DHO community I have seen comments about Theravadan monasticism which I often think is quite ill informed. The biggest thing I often read is about attainments. Many people perpetuate a myth that in the modern world nobody believes being an Arahant is possible, or that attainments are not possible. This is not true. From what I have seen, the only place where this view is predominant is within Theravadan buddhist in the West. In buddhist countries it is not uncommon for people to chat about a 3rd parties attainments. People will talk about which monks are arahants. Monks will talk about lay people who reached particular attainments. Monks will discuss with each other these matters. One thing that monks will not is talk about their own attainments with lay people, as this is against the Vinaya. Some people will claim that some well known monks have done this.. in reality they did not. Usually in these circumstances they were discussing the matter with monks.. but were either overheard by lay people, or the discussion was recorded and a lay person later heard the recording. Other times they just describe what actually happened (the sensory experience) as they reached that attainment and it is up to the reader to assume what it means. It is not uncommon to find books or CD's in bookshops whose title translates as 'A Manual to become a Sotapanna', or to meet someone who says that 1st path is what they hope to attain in this life. Unfortunately, outside of Sri Lanka, English is not well spoken in Theravadan countries - so often unless a person understands the local language - it appears that none of the above is happening, and instead there is just the usual western style books in English. That said the standards for attainments are usually set very high.

One thing that must be understood. Being a monk is not just about attaining 1st/2nd/3rd/4th path. It is lifestyle/system in which you live as part of a community/sangha - monk and laity, developing your sila, developing wholesome qualities, uprooting unwholesome qualities, assisting others in developing those things, assisting the sangha, teaching the dhamma, being a symbol of the dhamma.. WHILST working towards those attainments... and supporting others so that they may reach those attainments.  

As for whether you should you become a monk.. It depends on the circumstance.  If you are married with children then obviously lay life is probably better suited. It also depends on your motivation. If you want to become a monk to escape from the world.. then you will find the monastery has even more suffering. Start by trying to keep a daily sitting practice in the morning and evening - whilst maintaining 7/8 precepts. Do that for a few months. Then go to a monastery and stay for month. The only will you will know if it is for you is by staying in a monastery and seeing it for yourself what it is like.

If you have the strength to do it, are able to do it AND practice (rather than just surviving) - then there is no more direct a way of practicing the Buddha's teaching. It is total immersion. Ajahn Chah was once asked how he was able to get to where he did - he replied 'I dared'

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/8/17 10:09 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Looking forward to this log.

Your approach really mirrors the approach that I took. I have a huge bias towards just being intimate with what is occurring and being generally inclined toward investigating ill will. This moment is the actual dharma. The problem and the solution is right here in this moment. 

I've used lots of techniques and philosophies/models, but I never thought that a concept or a method would "fix" the situation. I truly believe in developing your own practice approach, trusting your own inherent intelligence, and developing your inner sense of authority and wisdom over time. It just takes a deep sense of honesty and willingness to recognize admit to our own confusions and shortcomings.

It's okay to seek guidance or instruction or a technique, but it should be motivated by what is acutally occurring during practice, not something that is blindly placed on top of practice.


My respect to your abbot and my best wishes for your practice.

May you awaken, may you be free from suffering, may you be happy. May all beings benefit from your practice. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/8/17 2:29 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Best luck Yilun Ong 

and when defeat comes, don't forget to treat yourself with care (and appearences too). Caring and letting..  will always be your refuges. 

Metta

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/8/17 2:33 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I think the better way to look at it might be not "No Metta ever" but "All Metta always".  Just an Idea. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/8/17 11:56 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
seth tapper:
I think the better way to look at it might be not "No Metta ever" but "All Metta always".  Just an Idea. 

Thank you Seth, Shargrol & John! What I realize is that I am in a wonderful place now, location and mind-wise. This path is slippery in many ways:

1. One can hide/run away from oneself, placing oneself in a race type of game. Looking back, I can see that there are more than a few moments where I am lost in the game, role-playing this character with levels to attain to, often by being mindful at that, it is now laughable how lost in this game/story I was. There is a separate level of nowness that one must be living at and aware of - not dissing the paying attention to sensations at all. It is what got me to this realization in the first place. But these subtle layers of nowness are as beautiful as they can be scary in their "unknowingness". Opening up to them and exploring them is the priority. The hunter in awareness can be seen clearly now, not much to do other than to watch her dance...
2. I've read some UG Krisnamurthi stuff. A lot of what he says is disturbing - mostly about compassion being BS and that it is conditioned. To be frank, I'd hate for that to be true, thus "No purposeful metta" through my own further conditioning. Taking a long walk up and down the mountain today, I find it hard to believe him. I will try to explore this empirically but thus far, perhaps due to past conditioning, I felt great joy (compassion) in buying some snacks for the young monks and watching them play marbles. This might be a futile exercise but part of the watching that is Life anyway.
3. Attainments Attainments Attainments... Ha! Shed most of the chase for them, but must remain vigilant and watch their A&P. https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/7084018 : My current view is striving for and being at a place/level of attainment is plain suffering. Right Effort at this point in my journey is knowing that Life is a wave. Trying to pin anything to a dead spot in a wave is a crazy act. Being enlightened is knowing and living this fact. Wherever I am on the map pre or post 4th Path, I still need to deal with all the things that is happening in all the now's. How best to proceed is to use the Dharma Eye with gentle attentiveness, for optimal skillful living. Use the Eye to penetrate suffering in all its guises. The relationship with Time must be watched in the only way that matters - attempts for 'faster' or 'slower' must be lived in, in that exact moment of Time. Being a monk makes this an easy, pleasing affair. Deepest gratitude for all those before me, the Buddha and the lineage that makes the Dharma available and all that makes such an 'immoral' form of living, possible.

Thoughts of returning to the world, facing the old challenges, portray the reality that this path, this monastic life, cannot change the world nor prevent the world from causing me pain. A non-dual perceptual shift can ease doubts but the real gold is how this path prepares one to deal with anything that can happen, now and the other many now's. Be gentle with change, knowing deeply why is cause for change to change anyhow...

Funny, a deep wish wishing that all beings be happy and as free from suffering as possible arose by itself. Hmmm...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/9/17 5:51 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I really like your approach because it goes to the root of the problem: what is suffering and its causes? Even though I bellieve attainments are a good indicator of where we are specially when using a map, we often tend to forget (certainly I do) that the whole goal of this is as Jiddu Krishnamurti says is true and unconditional freedom. Mental dissection and thought have their place but are very limited tools in their essence. I think you are going somewhere with this, maybe a total and natural integration of practice and insight in your life. I am looking forward to more about this as it will really be valuable in the way I am trying to live. I will be following your log and see what new perspective you are having with all of this!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/10/17 5:21 AM as a reply to Bhumi.
Thanks Bhumi! Wishing you all the best in your practice too... Keep at it and drop the uncertainties. A bit more bravery for the unknown will yield great rewards. emoticon

As a monk, it is much easier to practice: I have been doing choiceless awareness by ceasing control over meditation, allowing thoughts to flow as they wish. It's hilarious at times as it will hum music that I do not even remember THAT clearly in consciousness. The big benefit of it is that it allows deep thoughts/emotions to surface so that one can properly deal with them, once and for all. It is important to soak in all these stuff that pops up.

Shame is a common theme for me. Not sure if I am doing it right by just feeling the shame and chalking it to non-duality - that there is no self to be ashamed of? This could signal that there's pride to be let go off, the answer of how to let go further, is unclear at the moment...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/10/17 6:37 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I think your earlier statement applies: let it surface and soak in this stuff, including shame. 

I'm sure the shame will lead back to stuff from earlier in your life that you still need to "digest". As you know, a lot of times it feels like we regress back to the person/child that originally experienced the emotion and have to relive some of the feelings and thoughts from that time. Basically that "old self" will continue to exist until we fully experience and understand the situation that overwhelmed us in the past.

So it's more like 'there is a false self that needs to be fully experienced, so that the energy of the "knot" releases and reveals no self'. But it is paradoxical: to see beyond the false self, you need to fully experience the reality/truth of the false self in a very intimate way. So it's almost always better to assume the false self (in this case the shamed self) is real... until it isn't. emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/10/17 6:46 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Thanks shargrol, you're a gem!!! I think I was still running away by summoning a non-dual defense towards these childhood experiences (really interesting that these unconscious stuff is still stored). That's an important insight...

Much love! 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/10/17 9:57 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
In my practice - courage has always been the key.   If something scares you or feels terrible or important or just plain bad - the fastest path is straight into the gale.  Sticks and stones can break my bones, but electrical activity in the brain is nonsense. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/10/17 10:06 AM as a reply to seth tapper.
seth tapper:
In my practice - courage has always been the key.   If something scares you or feels terrible or important or just plain bad - the fastest path is straight into the gale.  Sticks and stones can break my bones, but electrical activity in the brain is nonsense. 
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/7102709

So you would push ahead with this energy thingy I have? I feel that I can summon it to push through the pain, but something says I might end up burning some fuses and end up crazy - that scares me as it will leave damaging ripples for others. Death in comparison is a release...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/10/17 11:28 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Crazy is scary.  Really really scary.  I think those fears are obligatory if you head out on this path.  The reality here, though, is that we are becoming sane.  Believing in some kind of ghost in the machine and supernatural stuff like suffering, meaning and consequence is a form of mental illness.  A sane rational person knows that she is just riding the earth through space and that the contents of her mind is not important.  It feels like accepting that simple obvious truth would dispell love from our lives, so we cling to delusion.  Of course, if you let meaning and consequence go, love smacks you in the face.  A sane person abides in love as the universe unfolds with no one in control. 

I overcame the fear of insanity by grounding myself hard in everyday reality.  Here is gravity and Harvey Weinstein and in that universe, everything is fine and I have no control.  

I have no idea what the best way forward for you is from a tactical perspective because I have never taught anyone and just am not qualified to opine on technique.   I do know it doesnt matter and you cant make a mistake because you arent actually in control. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/10/17 11:36 AM as a reply to seth tapper.
seth tapper:
 I do know it doesnt matter and you cant make a mistake because you arent actually in control. 

That's a good one! I think the technical info matters for people after me. I am sure going either way won't have meaningful results for me though!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
12/15/17 9:40 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I think I am almost certain that I have accidentally landed on the foot of Mount E. at the pathway called Kundalini Awakening... I am still resisting the possibility, I mean I didn't ask for it, did I?! Argh... This seems like a really long journey, more than a decade (or decades) from all that I could google. To be honest, I have not come to terms with this immense loss of control - at least with the Buddha's path of Vipassana, there is something to do! Now all I read about (of which I am in the baby stage of course - good read here) that I am supposed to do is complete surrender. This means do nothing about it. Just imagine that... I I feel like I am puppet on strings. *sad laughter*

8th July 2017: Assumed Kundalini Awakening:-

Meditating during the night discourse in Thai language. I was pausing the breath for too long in an attempt to control the entry to the 1st jhana. I had chanced upon it a couple of times but do not have controlled access to it yet. I was at the stage of Samatha that I discovered pleasant raptures/bliss peaked a moment or two after the out-breath. I had the thought of holding it as it seems like the point of jhana-entry then. A voice asked, "Are you afraid of death?" At first, I wanted to reply No. But I thought of my fear of heights and said "Actually yes" I started to hyperventilate and my heart rate went through the roof. I realized I had lost control of thebreath and body, it is frozen in place. Panic ensued for awhile. I remembered the Dhamma of equanimous observation so I calmed down to watch the episode of "Heart Attack" play out. It went on for ~30 minutes and stopped a few minutes before the sermon ended. I was pretty happy and excited, thought this was a good thing to experience and asked the abbot about it. He said to continue meditating and that it is probably symptoms of mental anxiety. I was kind of disappointed at the answer but went on about happily, not knowing what had actually happened to me. 

Well, what can we do about it. Life is a never-ending surprise and the lesson is to let go. The irony... emoticon

The only consolation is that the Dhamma to be lived is the same, nothing changes other than that I have lost the illusion of something to do. I kinda liked that illusion...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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12/15/17 11:06 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:

The only consolation is that the Dhamma to be lived is the same, nothing changes other than that I have lost the illusion of something to do. I kinda liked that illusion...

Yeah I hear you Yilun. Keep up the updates, I'm finding it helpful. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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12/16/17 1:14 PM as a reply to Adam M.
Are you having the same, Adam? If yes, 1st few runs - let go of the fear. She bites hard but won't kill.

The K stuff runs non-stop, gets intrusive when attempting to be still or sleep at night and goes into overdrive when in meditation. It is at its best form at night, so I have been taking naps in the day and staying awake to meditate at night - good thing about being a monk, heh...

K meditation requires minimal stillness and is much less imperturbable than other forms meaning lower standard of concentration. Movements are tolerated and it will resume like nothing happened in the next instant. Since they get stronger and require less focus during meditation, I am doing 2 things:

1. Watch the mindstream to actively decondition the 2 tiers of stuff mentioned below.
2. Train in separating pain from suffering. I am practicing a permanent inner smile, not unlike the ones you see perpetually on Buddha images. The stuff Pawel (the demon Angra Mainyu) teaches is not practicable at the moment, these K girls are way strong and don't even bat an eyelid at my feeble tricks. Perhaps in later stages. This inner smile is quite effective, on pain scale 8/10 I can remain calm and decide to snap out of meditation or not, as these K girls are quite nice - If you think the pain is too much, you can adjust for temporary relief or simply bail. They will continue but at a lesser intensity/area - the whole body vibration and energy vortices usually stops.

I am facilitating them to go on overdrive, from the unhealthy wish that this process can be shortened. If anyone knows that this is foolish, please let me know and I shall resume to normal sleeping hours, instead of 'torturing' myself for no good reason!

2 main tiers of stuff to watch and release:

1. Self + Control: Anything to do with illusion of self. Includes pride/ego and the works. See clearly. Explore control, release where it is obvious trying to control + failing is obviously going to end up as suffering.
2. Sankharas: Trauma/memories/worldly conditioning of all sorts including seeing a certain kind of woman as attractive. Erase.

This path can't be all doom and gloom, so let's add some things to gain and consciously maintain:

1. Peace
2. Humor
3. Happiness
4. Unconditional Love/Compassion (Metta etc.)

This K stuff frees some daylight hours so I will see how I can use that to engage more with people and community. This means starting to learn Thai seriously, a mute is not going to be very helpful for others. 

I'm noticing so much K phenomenon that I think will be too much to type. So please ask me but frankly, just let go of the illusion of control with K. It is becoming crystal clear that she is the one wearing the pants and way smarter than I am: She can perform brain surgery without anaesthesia and me screaming...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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12/16/17 3:01 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Wow - you've got a bigger pair than me haha. I freaked out with the fear and agitation this week and stopped all meditation for a few days. Even without any meditation the K just keeps getting stronger but at a more tolerable rate now. I'm cutting down to 1-2 hours meditation a day now. I feel I'm on a downward slope on a bumpy road. I don't think I need to pedal too hard. Yeah total surrender. I'll just let it do what it wants to do.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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12/16/17 4:28 PM as a reply to Adam M.
fear is a motherfucker of a hinderance.   Investigate it carefully, break it down into the sensations and aversions and such and it loses its power. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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12/16/17 8:34 PM as a reply to Adam M.
IME, the stuff doesn't get any worse from what triggered the fear. So overcoming it is the only hurdle. Psyche yourself.

Go for it, Adam! emoticon Tell us how it goes...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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12/17/17 3:08 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Thanks guys. Yeah I was getting a little flustered this last week haha. But just meditated today and went much deeper than I've ever been before. It feels that a whole load of psycological baggage has been removed to ease the meditation further. I think I'll be better when in happens again now I've got a good feel of what is going on and trust the process. Still gonna take it easy though and focus on Vipassana until the New Year.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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2/26/18 4:17 AM as a reply to Adam M.
Any updates, Adam? I hope you are more than well and progressing to your liking!

Getting lost in the past months as I have seemingly lost the POI maps (or it could be that I am stuck somewhere in a new-fangled place) to provide a safe space to work in and for reassuring this small, hurt animal inside me. Good news is that I broke out of needing this safe space through the help of many Beings of Light here. Some insights:

It may seem that the middle way seems to be a path of moderation like we are avoiding contracting or expansion, but it is not. By being very present, feeling into the sensations that make up holding the middle ground and investigate staying in this middle space, resisting making a Fight/Flight choice between extremes, resisting the urges to want to swing between making judgement/choices of pleasant/unpleasantness, what feels right/less right, NOT avoiding the what-feels-wrong, do feel like being torn in the beginning because we ARE being torn so that we can rightfully expand and grow like muscles. This feeling may seem to imply that we are being stuck or limiting ourselves but in fact, soaking in the truths from this space IS growth expansion itself as we accept that we ARE both extremes. We stretch ourselves wide with non-attachment so that we can watch this space grow and investigate it with equanimity, arriving with loving-kind acceptance, no longer identifying with either extremes. Through this middle way of practice, of not pushing stuff away, we are unifying the many extremities that make up what we truly are, progressively growing to be centred like the sun that holds the solar system together. Achieving greater understanding and feeling whole - a whole lot bigger than what we previously thought of ourselves.

The whole process is kind of like this. Hahaha.

And 6 Realms – such a profound teaching. Thanks Shargrol<3 to ALL

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/21/18 1:22 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I’ve been barking up the wrong tree the whole time, seeking enlightenment for ME. Been delusional in thinking a pragmatic path is possible for me and to work on morality later. Wouldn’t work because I am such a dick in the first place! I’ve caused quite some trouble here when self-spiritually-aligned to supposedly Right Views and using that as a wrong moral stand. Although the actions are mostly stemming from wanting to help, if it turned out ugly and if there isn’t Right Speech, then the actions are simply NOT Right Action. I am quitting the quest of attaining pragmatic paths and turning my full attention on the training of morality. After questioning what’s the point of pragmatic attainments if one cannot live a skilful, happy life empowering others – the choice of what to do became crystal clear. Much thanks to my ‘teacher’ Shargrol…

Some specifics that I have used to decide:
  1. Am I suffering in this pursuit? Yes – 99% of my sufferings are due to a spiritual greed, made more ugly with impatience, intolerance and flexible morality <- such a danger.
  2. What is the point of enlightenment if I am still an ugly SOB? None.
  3. Am I happy? Yes, I have become very happy after I dropped the ugly way of chasing this and finding somewhere to be mapped amongst the Kundalini stuff. Also had been wrongly angry at it instead of being appreciative. What a dumb nut...
NOT dissing the pragmatic path at all. But it ain’t my boat! emoticon Sincerest apologies to all I have been a SOB to. All the best to your paths!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/21/18 1:59 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
That all sounds like very normal stuff we practitioners encounter on the path.

Just sayin'

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/21/18 2:08 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Yo Chris! Whaddya mean? emoticon

Man, I was consumed by Mara in this 'pragmatic' pursuit, almost made me into a stinking devil... What a relief to drop that heavy bag of rocks... Phew.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/21/18 2:21 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Can you tell me more about your bag of rocks? Are you running away from confronting it? Are you postponing the inevitable?

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3/21/18 4:29 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I personally like to separate morality from meditative attainment (i.e. shifts in the quality of perception). This way, I don't run the risk of thinking that just because my perception is all clean and pure, I am somehow magically protected from acting with ill intent.

I know the case of a man whose perception became very, very pure and pristine, and because of this he convinced himself that he was now completely harmless and free of malice. I.e. that he had no ill intent left whatsoever, and so he was simply uncapable of acting selfishly. Somehow this gave him free reign to act however he pleased, and no matter how many people were hurt by interacting with him, and there were several, he always put the blame on them because, after all, if he was free from malice as witnessed by his clean perception, it couldn't be his fault, right?

I have since decided that I would think of morality and meditative attainment as things, which of course can complement each other, but are really very separate, so that success in one is no guarantee of success in the other.

I have also known people who have never meditated in their life, and yet whose actions and words and dispositions reveal a nobility of character, a natural grace and humility, and a deeply benevolent core. Even in the best of days, when my mood is fine and the weather is nice and I'm on vacation, I can only vaguely approximate their behavior.

Alas morality is, for me, a matter of sacrifice and self-control... but for some people it just comes so naturally! How I envy them!

And yet, there is this:

"All I know is that I am an asshole, but in knowing I am an asshole, I am less of an asshole than those who are assholes but don't know it."

A motto I have adopted, and which has had a very benevolent effect on my life, and my attitudes towards others.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/21/18 7:13 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
"All I know is that I am an asshole, but in knowing I am an asshole, I am less of an asshole than those who are assholes but don't know it."

A motto I have adopted, and which has had a very benevolent effect on my life, and my attitudes towards others.


Sounds similar to " the one who is truly wise is the one who recognizes his own ignorance" type statements. On the subject of assholes, i've found this one puts things in perspective on a day when everyone else seems to be the problem:

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

We now return to our regularly scheduled non-asshole programming. emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/21/18 10:03 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:

"All I know is that I am an asshole, but in knowing I am an asshole, I am less of an asshole than those who are assholes but don't know it."

That IS me!
Lars

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

That seems to be me too this morning!

Good thing I'm going off to the mountain stream and have a picnic in the water with the floating takeway bags, read A Path With Heart and count how many times I am dissatisfied with each moment. Last I checked, I kept planning and suffering for the Path...

There can't possibly be more assholes in the stream. So it is me! emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/21/18 10:06 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Hey Chris, the bag of rocks are all the planning/strategizing/thinking about maps and progress. Gonna just drop that and enjoy each moment. Do you have a better suggestion? 

Sending everyone: "Love IS In The Air!" emoticon 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/22/18 7:19 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Do you have a better suggestion? 

Yilun, I think you need to find your best path and process.

But... when I read your comments yesterday it sounded like you were sort of running away from the unpleasantness. As I posted then, you don't seem to be having experiences unlike those we all have at one time or another on this journey. You seem to have locked onto a self-image that you're a bad person, angry, unable to handle what you were doing in your practice. I would hope that you'll take the time to examine that carefully, and deeply. I went through very similar periods of being angry, expecting me to be the center of my practice universe, expecting me to get awakened, not allowing for downtime, lesser expectations, and just letting go.

I think you need to take a break and let go of all your expectations and as much self-referencing as you can. Just don't avoid experiences and even practices that, if examined and pursued carefully, will actually help you in the long run. If you're like me, you get frustrated at the (expected!) lack of progress, and you'll swicth practices some, maybe a lot. Switching practices for switching's sake, or to avoid being uncomfortable with one's self, isn't usually the best course to follow. This practice is inevitably going to make you uncomfortable. That's absolutely part of the deal. No pain, no gain.

I'm sure you'll be just fine.

Peace!

emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/23/18 1:44 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thank you Chris. Brings light to my heart just reading your compassionate post. Yes I was all you mentioned!
 
I was holding the sword of goodness, striving and slashing away that I lost the middle way. Can you see that I ended up in a pool of my blood and others, losing sight of the path? I was doing this in the name of good but in a very ‘unmerry’ way, forgotten the joy that can be had in a healthy way, by being merry in the centre of the cross.. I am sinking back to the great neutrality, to learn and stay in this space of clarity, come what may, they are my spiritual fodder…

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/23/18 9:13 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
What's the goal of your practice, Yilun?

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3/23/18 11:48 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun, 

You are sounding a little manic to me. Am I wrong?  I suggest getting a good long novel about something unrelated to dharma and your life and just dig in for a while.  Maybe the Godfather by Mario Puzo.  I wouldnt suggest making any big life decisions in this state of mind. 

Seems like a normal response to the extreme isolation and self focus you have been engaging in.   Take a vacation! 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/23/18 12:57 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
seth tapper:
Yilun, 

You are sounding a little manic to me. Am I wrong?  I suggest getting a good long novel about something unrelated to dharma and your life and just dig in for a while.  Maybe the Godfather by Mario Puzo.  I wouldnt suggest making any big life decisions in this state of mind. 

Seems like a normal response to the extreme isolation and self focus you have been engaging in.   Take a vacation! 

This is very good advice. A lot of the best treatment for kundalini problems and spiritual upheavals more generally amounts to just caring for yourself and others on a very pragmatic, physical level. Eating "comfort food", reading a novel, exercising, and being social are all beneficial not only for people generally, but are specifically important to do under the conditions you've described. 

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3/24/18 6:29 AM as a reply to Scott.
Thanks guys. I'm definitely going more than a little crazy in the head. I'm booking a flight to Sri Lanka (after the last foreign meditator leaves) and spending 4 months or more there and just chill out (not disrobing). Anyone knows of places or people I should visit?

I'm open to travelling to India too! 

Love,
Mad Monk 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/24/18 6:36 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris, I found that there is something very wrong with me when some kind soul asked me for my short term goal and I cant find any! 

All I could think of is getting enlightened - that's so royally unhealthy. I don't even know why I want to be enlightened... I need to come back to reality to recollect myself. Shikes...

After giving up sights of Big E, life has been easy and good. There's no suffering, at least in a monastic environment. After spending 10 months in a foreign monastery with no English speakers to communicate with, I'm suffering from lack of whatchamacallit-lack-of-communications? 

Going to Sri Lanka where 98% of the population speaks English for a change. Hope that helps!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/24/18 10:07 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
All I could think of is getting enlightened - that's so royally unhealthy. I don't even know why I want to be enlightened... I need to come back to reality to recollect myself. Shikes...

Yilun, if waking up isn't your overall goal then WTF are you doing?

Seth asked you if you're manic and for good reason - you do sound sort of manic. Take some time off to reset, and let your mind soak for a while without forcing it to do anything.

After giving up sights of Big E, life has been easy and good. There's no suffering, at least in a monastic environment. After spending 10 months in a foreign monastery with no English speakers to communicate with, I'm suffering from lack of whatchamacallit-lack-of-communications? 

Again, I think you need to sort out motivational issues like this. I think you're giving up the long term (awakening) for the short term (feeling happy) because then your practice isn't causing you to face up to being a human being with all the ordinary human foibles.

I keep saying this and while I know it sounds like a broken record I think it's what you need to hear.

So what is it you ultimately want - to feel happy and unecumbered all the time, or to wake up?

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/24/18 10:18 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Hi Chris,

I do want to wake up. But I am lost now so I am taking time off to reset. Hopefully via travelling around Sri Lanka and finding someone who can guide me face to face.

I am really very frustrated in the practice area. My sits are basically sitting and being a witness to whatever the Kundalini energy is up to in visuals and sensations mostly. I have lost access to the samatha jhanas - the same places where raptures happen have been replaced by strong, painful symptoms. Even if jhanas were to happen, they are unpleasant. It is difficult to simply watch the breath as the strong symptoms around the nostrils or even the abdomen overtake this observation with great complexity. I have to calm myself down and attention is automatically pulled to the strongest symptoms. After a while, either I enter hypnagogia (lucid dreams, OBE), enter jhanas or what seems like a fruition -> then what seems like an exit from meditation and I end up attempting vipassana with the whole body vibrations. I am totally lost as to what I am even doing. This has been going on for 3 months...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/24/18 10:39 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I think everyone weighing in here is in agreement - take a break  emoticon

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3/24/18 10:45 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Even if jhanas were to happen, they are unpleasant.

I've never experienced or heard of anything like an "unpleasant jhana." It would be interesting to get a detailed phenomenological description of these experiences. How does the state arise? What's jhana-like about it, and why is it being labelled a jhana? What kind of unpleasantness arises, when, and how? What arises in the mind that triggers the unpleasantness?

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/24/18 4:46 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yes, taking a break is a good thing for these kinds of situations.

Just for the record, there is a lot of re-wiring that the body goes through during this stuff. I have a feeling the "unpleasant jhana" is basically the kundalini, jhana, rewiring combination that especially happens during A&P of first path and throughout second path. (I've honestly forgotten where Yilun is at right now, so this isn't a path diagnosis for him --- just a general statement about something people should know.) It's not uncommon for sits to be very confusing and basically unmappable during these stages.

Being gentle to oneself in these phases is the right approach. There is no point in "pushing onward" when we can't really connect with the present moment of experience. 

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3/24/18 4:50 PM as a reply to shargrol.
You're pretty much getting to what I'm getting to, shargrol. However, I'd still like to have a detailed phenomenological description of these things Yilun is calling "unpleasant jhana." Maybe Yilun will indulge me. Anyway, I wish him all the best.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/24/18 7:17 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thank you and no worries at all, Chris!

Unpleasant jhanas: This happens when I forcibly bear the pain of the facial sensors OR the mind decides to enter into jhanas. The background body bliss of the jhanas are the same and still pleasant. However the locations on the face where pleasant jhanas used to be felt now feel like tensed/pressured - a bittersweet pain/pleasure combination simlar to how overworked muscles will feel like, the 1st 2 jhanas raptures/symptoms are in phase with the breath and the 3rd is not. It goes through a jhana arc 1-4.5,4.6,4.7,4.8->back downwards where kundalini stuff are overlayed on top where whole-body vibrations gets more refined/subtler the deeper I go.

Kundalini or rewiring stuff: I get mad skull pressures especially on the T zone of brows and nose; drilling in these areas and back of skull; pleasant wave like stuff; tiny pin pricks, often itchy all over head especially around the nostrils; teeth/jaw feels like being rattled, rearranged or achey, sometimes I have to open and relax the jaws for relief; what feels like lasering of the organs in the gut, accompanied by hearing groans/hisses; hands/arms/legs get numb and achey; what feels like energy entering/leaving the body via 3rd eye/crown/hands/feet/dan tien/solar plexus; tingling sensations all over body; heat/cold everywhere especially extremities; bliss waves and chakras/spinal energy arcing up down; the most crazy 3D/realistic visuals ever with psychedelic colors - control over them is possible but I have dropped trying to do so; lucid dreams with/without control; OBE - change of postures/movements;  varying Nada sounds, usually louder when going deep, so much more... 

These go on all day long, especially during sleep. They get strongest during attempted meditation or chanting. Most of the time, I am putting on a cranial cap with all kinds of effects. Funny thing is I am not tired from lack of snooze.

Sincrere gratitude, Shargrol, Seth and Scott! 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/24/18 10:21 PM as a reply to shargrol.
Yilun Ong:
After spending 10 months in a foreign monastery with no English speakers to communicate with, I'm suffering from lack of whatchamacallit-lack-of-communications? Going to Sri Lanka where 98% of the population speaks English for a change. Hope that helps!

I hope that helps too; there's nothing wrong with leaving if you need to explore and communicate the depths of your stream in different ways than what's currently available, and Right Action is always worth striving for as it's something all of us can improve on with compassion, understanding and feedback. Perhaps a change in culture, scenery and routines can help reconnect with the meditative path in a unique way; resting, self-care, sitting meditation, walking meditation and exploring are all exercises in life, but part of the process can also involve living life and engaging with an expansive culture at different levels. Whatever happens, feel free to keep in touch here, and if you're patient with the k stuff it may resolve itself over time. If you ever feel the risk of losing your mind or that a painful experience might be never-ending, I've been there more times last year than I can remember or count, it helps to be reminded that it's more often an example of creative license than accurate risk.

shargrol:
Just for the record, there is a lot of re-wiring that the body goes through during this stuff. I have a feeling the "unpleasant jhana" is basically the kundalini, jhana, rewiring combination... Being gentle to oneself in these phases is the right approach.

That's been my experience with allot of this stuff as well. It also helps to practice good sleep-hygiene; using dim/red light at night if possible (dim-red for least impact on sleep), reducing screentime and filtering out blue-light at night (computerandroid, ios), sleeping ~8 hours the same time each night, and shortly after waking to white/blue light the same time each morning get exposed to a bright sunny area if possible or a bright white light (~5k-10,000 lux) for 15-45 minutes each morning to sync the entire body and sleep/wake cycle together; with phone/tablet access a free lux app (androidios) can measure approximate lux levels if need be. I also remember a post about snoring, so if possible it might be worth doing a sleep-study at some point in this lifetime. I apologize for bringing it up again, but I can't recommend enough good iron intake and if possible a blood test to make sure you have a good amount of ferritin (iron storage). Speculation: much of the intense vibration stuff around kundalini and map stages might be indirectly related to a process that's trying to finish but is more difficult without enough reserves.

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3/25/18 7:26 AM as a reply to Francis.
Thanks Francis, I do not snore but when going into hypnagogia, I do hear the sounds due to the relaxing of the throat area. I am taking this time to sleep more as well. I'll go get some iron tablets and see if that helps! I have actually achieved equanimity with all the Kundalini stuff, the suffering in the past is related to frustration with not knowing what is going on. I am watching dissatisfaction with Life very closely now as my main practice whilst smelling the roses, so I will be careful not to be affected by that and spiritual greed!

Love to ALL! emoticon

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3/25/18 9:42 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hi Yilun, maybe you burn out yourself in your practice and your environment. As other users said it would be a good time to make a little break in your practice and see things in other prespective and point of view. 

I can't say nothing about the physical phenomena that you are experiencing, there are more experienced people can guide you on this.

You seem a social person and maybe you are and was quite isoleted in the monestery not being able to comunicate ( all thai spekaers). This is why you are so active in this forum and wanting ppl to come where you are. This of course is not bad, is what you are and its so good to have you in this forum. You made this forum very active and generate very good topics and make people participate more, so thank you emoticon

It would be ok the next monastery or place for meditate you will choose you can find people to comunicate on your language or maybe put yourself in a guidance of a teacher or master you can understand,comunicate and trust. A good talk and guidance can relase a lot of tension, stress, put order inside, calm the mind and get strenght to keep working in a safety way.

Now  its a good moment to reflect on this past months and see what you learned from yourself and cultivate the good insights you got.

So Yulin big hug, and tell us how its going on everything! 

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3/25/18 10:26 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Seth, thank you for the detailed descriptions. While I've experienced all manner of "bad stuff" while practicing I have no experience with what I would call a "bad" jhana. I'll do some research and ask some of my dharma pals about it, too. Maybe someone else relates.

Meantime, all the best to you!

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3/25/18 10:33 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks Jordi & Chris! Yes, I think many can see that I am lonely as heck here thus I am spouting nonsense so much over here. Really just spouting has been very therapeutic, I must say. Hahahaha. Well, DhO has been a great release for me and has helped me immeasurably...

Following the wise shargrol's advice, I am doing a sit/walk around and do nothing practice (not the Do Nothing meditation), just looking at my mind stream and being curious about dissatisfaction/clinging to self in general. It has been pretty pleasant and insightful as I can watch the mind go into Hunter mode and suggest that the moment can be improved by something. Pretty funny stuff... emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
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3/25/18 11:40 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I'd call your situation being "lost in your own head." Or your own narrative. Or your own thoughts. Seeing that happening in real time is a huge advance. Kudos to shargrol for urging that as your practice right now.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/25/18 11:35 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
A random point: 

  What happens in our minds and bodies is irrelevant.  The crazier and more terrifying the arisings, the greater the opportunity to just let it go.  You are not screwing this up. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/25/18 12:04 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
I can't screw this up Seth. I am not doing anything, never did. After falling back to integrate, it all fell into place. All I can 'do' is watch it all unfold further. I completely do not believe in a separate self and thusly THINK that I am now a stream-enterer by the Buddha's standards. Meditation if it happens, happens by itself. I am just along for the ride. And what a funny ride it has been, looking back hahahaha... Cosmic joke indeed.

Thank you, you have been instrumental for the culmination of this realization!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/25/18 2:21 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I completely do not believe in a separate self and thusly THINK that I am now a stream-enterer by the Buddha's standards.

Does this mean you believe this intellectually or that you have deep experience in the reality? Curious...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/25/18 5:46 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Intellectually cos the experiences didn't stick! Sure feels better than without. I'm not gonna hanker after it and suffer. Not enlightened but I can live an enlightened life till it stays on. Ha!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/26/18 2:16 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
With all due respect and compassion, we need to level set here about the difference between stream entry and a purely intellectual understanding of not-self. From MCTB, and squaring with my experience (the bolded italics are mine):


"14. PATH

This stage also lasts just a moment, and after the first completed progress of insight it marks the first moment of the newly awakened being’s awakened life. The first time around, this is called “stream entry” or “first path” in the Theravada, the “fourth stage of the second path” or “the first bhumi” in the Tibetan tradition, and many names in Zen that are purposefully ambiguous. After a subsequent, new progress of insight it marks the attainment of the next level of awakening, and there are lots of names for those that will be discussed shortly. It is directly followed by... 


15. FRUITION

This is the fruit of all the meditator's hard work, the first attainment of ultimate reality, emptiness, Nirvana, God or whatever you wish to call it. In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else. Reality stops cold and then reappears. Thus, this is impossible to comprehend, as it goes completely and utterly beyond the rational mind and the universe. To “external time” (if someone were observing the meditator from the outside) this lasts only an instant. It is like an utter discontinuity of the space-time continuum with nothing in the unfindable gap.

The initial aftershocks, however, can go on for days, and may be mild or spectacular, fun or unsettling or some mixture of these. There are times when it is fun to show off, and this is one of those times. Aftershocks I have noticed after paths include but are not limited to: the visceral feeling that sensory reality is so intense that the nerves in one’s forehead and upper neck may not be able to handle the strain, the feeling that one has become diffused into the atmosphere without a center, purpose, function, sense of direction or even of will, a feeling of joy and gratitude beyond what is normally possible welling through one’s being, the sense of discovery of that which one has most needed, the profound sense of coming home, a quiet awe like the stillness after a great storm, and rapturous transcendent highs that make anything that happened after the A&P seem like dry toast.

Remember how I said in the section on the psychic powers that strong concentration and intent make magickal things happen? Just after the attainment of a path, particularly the first path, is a time when formal resolutions have an outrageous amount of power. The Buddha said that the greatest of all powers is to understand and then teach the dharma, meaning to attain to full realization, however you define it, and to then help others do the same. I had been advised to use this unique period in my practice well, and I resolved to attain to full enlightenment for the benefit of all beings as quickly as was reasonably possible. Despite all the complex consequences of having done so, I do not regret my decision in the least and highly recommend that you do the same.

On subsequent passes through Fruition of that path the mind tends to be refreshed, bright, quiet and clear for a while, and milder forms of the above listed phenomena may occur. It is as though someone hit the reset button and cleared out all the junk for a little while. There is a nice bliss wave that tends to follow and may take a few seconds to develop. If you have not learned the concentration states yet, doing so in the afterglow of a Fruition can make them much easier to attain and master."

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/26/18 5:35 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Well Chris, that thing called Fruition happened last year and I didn't feel a complete loss of "Belief in Self". The loss of this fetter only happened very recently. I am not digging up the pragmatic vs Fetters models but just saying, yer know... emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/26/18 5:43 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Okay. You know more about you than I do!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
3/28/18 9:32 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Just wanted to share this intellectual insight of what this path is about: 

To gain enough concentration for clear-seeing, through stillness investigate and relaxedly debunk the ignorance (best done off-cushion, NO FIGHTING!), LET GO of the discovered crap. It took me 10 months to digest this although the Buddha said it so clearly so many times (I'm a dumb ass that grabbed onto new stuff after letting go of old stuff). Right View is NO View. Leave the bloody boat!

I've to share this golden, gentle advice from my 'teacher' shargrol:
Basically, the primitive part of our human mind is very stupid, like a lizard. You can't "teach" or "argue" with a lizard. The lizard needs to directly experience the uncomfortable nature of greed, aversion, and delusion otherwise it will never change its bad ways of thinking about the current moment. When we can drop greed, aversion, and delusion then we can be (when it is appropriate) just like the lizard happily sunning itself on the rock, like the wise old man sitting in the sun, and actually enjoy a simple life. 
Thus, Ananda, the purpose and benefit of virtuous behavior is freedom from remorse.
The purpose and benefit of freedom from remorse is satisfaction.
The purposeand benefit of satisfaction is joy (pīti).
The purposeand benefit of joy is pacification of the body.
The purposeand benefit of pacification of the body is pleasure (sukha).
The purposeand benefit of pleasure is concentration (samādhi).
The purpose and benefit of concentration is knowledge and vision of things as they really
are.
The purpose and benefit of knowledge and vision of things as they really are is
disenchantment and dispassion.
The purpose and benefit of disenchantment and dispassion is knowledge and vision of
liberation.

Kimatthiya Sutta: Purpose and Benefits of Virtue, from the Anguttara Nikaya 10.1.1.1


RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/3/18 5:30 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Adding my experience of Sila (morality) here:

1. In the beginning, I practiced it and saw that it allowed me to concentrate.
2. After the beginning, I let it go and saw that much of suffering comes from not having Sila.
3. Through investigation, I saw that Sila is the key to the end of suffering. It is all the conflicts we suffer internally whether or not we practice 100% outer morality or not. Enlightenment to me is perfect internal morality, where one is FEELING A-Okay inside and does not fight any longer with what is right/wrong and lives Right Livelihood through Right Thoughts/Speech/Action naturally and without suffering negative self-questioning. This is not the same as being a perfect being and I believe an uninterrupted ease and flow of positivity is attainable. Is this wrong?

Back to work after 'old man sitting in the sun'! Will still be practicing that, adding something to do and hope that this isn't too much!

So there are 2 problematic areas that I encounter: subjective good/objective bad (kill bad habits) and the opposite (to increase good habits). Any brilliant ideas to work on them other than the below, will be greatly appreciated.

Describing (bad habits only):
1. Keep watching the subjective good and question the good feelings + (3Cs). Slowly wire in the positive feelings of addressing the objective bad by strengthening the value system <- Any ideas on how to make it easier to positively alter the value system so that it overpowers the nonsense without strengthening the ego? Or is the (feel good about self) ego, the tool for this job?
2. Failure - Be compassionate and know that these are all due to past conditionings. It will take patient endurance to complete the walk.

AND: My experience of Belief vs Faith. Having previously bound myself to beliefs (especially of the Buddha), I've let go of true faith, which is being absolutely open to the truth. With beliefs, I create obstacles to the truth. What a tricky one...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/3/18 8:21 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Yilun Ong:
Adding my experience of Sila (morality) here:

1. In the beginning, I practiced it and saw that it allowed me to concentrate.
2. After the beginning, I let it go and saw that much of suffering comes from not having Sila.
3. Through investigation, I saw that Sila is the key to the end of suffering. It is all the conflicts we suffer internally whether or not we practice 100% outer morality or not. Enlightenment to me is perfect internal morality, where one is FEELING A-Okay inside and does not fight any longer with what is right/wrong and lives Right Livelihood through Right Thoughts/Speech/Action naturally and without suffering negative self-questioning. This is not the same as being a perfect being and I believe an uninterrupted ease and flow of positivity is attainable. Is this wrong?


Since discovering and practicing Buddhism,  I've noticed my quality of life improve immensely with practice. However, lately I've realized that the only thing that has changed is seeing through a lot of bullshit illusion. My life is the same. This is the slow but steady collapse of dualism. This itself is sila. By my experience of how this is all unfolding,  I cannot see how an uninterrupted flow of ease is unattainable (or at least come to a point where the desire of such a state is simply realized as a burden in and of itself and dropped). We just have to teach the lizard, clinging to hopeless desires to watch, listen and feel.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/3/18 8:49 AM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O:
... However, lately I've realized that the only thing that has changed is seeing through a lot of bullshit illusion... By my experience of how this is all unfolding,  I cannot see how an uninterrupted flow of ease is unattainable...

Yes, first you drop the bullshit, which reduces suffering, and then you take a close look at the "suffering" that remains. Careful sorting is needed because while some of the remaining unease might be true suffering, other forms of unease are simply forms of information.

So complete unease is probably a stupid goal, it would be like the lizard that just sits on the rock, regardless of whether it is in the shadow or in the sun. Some forms of unease are simply the lizard noticing, "hey my body is now in the shadow and I would be warmer if I moved over a little back into the sun". 

A lot of the time we begrudge our uneasy feelings, but if we see them correctly, we should be thankful we receive that kind of motivational information.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/3/18 12:37 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Nick O:
... However, lately I've realized that the only thing that has changed is seeing through a lot of bullshit illusion... By my experience of how this is all unfolding,  I cannot see how an uninterrupted flow of ease is unattainable...

Yes, first you drop the bullshit, which reduces suffering, and then you take a close look at the "suffering" that remains. Careful sorting is needed because while some of the remaining unease might be true suffering, other forms of unease are simply forms of information.

So complete unease is probably a stupid goal, it would be like the lizard that just sits on the rock, regardless of whether it is in the shadow or in the sun. Some forms of unease are simply the lizard noticing, "hey my body is now in the shadow and I would be warmer if I moved over a little back into the sun". 

A lot of the time we begrudge our uneasy feelings, but if we see them correctly, we should be thankful we receive that kind of motivational information.
To see unease as motivational "information". I like that. A great way to think of equanimity. Reminds me of a recent reddit thread where someone was questioning Ingram's arhatship based on the fact that he still felt frustration at work. Some people seem to want equanimity to be something more than I suspect it is.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/3/18 1:15 PM as a reply to Nick O.
In my experience, thinking of a human mind as a unified thing that exists in one state or another - e.g. equanimity - is reductionist. The reality is my mind is constantly changing state, it is just a recurrent neural network and it fluctuates continuously due to external and internal stimulous. 

There are at least three stages that a mind could be at in this "enlightenment" nonsense.  The first would be when the main rational model of reality switches from responsible actors acting with consequence to just This.  The second is when the mind can let go of identification with itself and its own importance and experience This free of condition.  The third is when the mind stops identifying all together and the nervous system may or may not do stuff until it dies - which is actually all that is happening in the first place! 

In my experience, before the mind settles in the third category, you are likely to see minds that can articulate the first prinicple act in all kinds of ways contrary to it and minds that can abide in the second state feel all kinds of things that seem absurd when they are abiding with out producing self.  

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/8/18 2:03 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
After taking a break doing old man practice and reading dharma, it's back to the same Kundalini overlayed over POI cycling. A&P-DN-EQ-Fruition-STRAIGHT BACK AT A&P with the skullcrushers non-stop at work. Now verified with additional open-eye visuals of POI courtesy of Kundalini Kasina - the scary faces flying at me sure beats any IMAX. I think a much longer break from dharma is necessary. As a monk that is like wtf haha. I may have completed 5 cycles but not 3rd path yet. I am one of those that are missing something that completing more cycles can't get to 3rd. Emptiness? 


This K thing is mystifying, it has cleared through the chakras to the one above the head and still it is going. I can't push on even though I increase EQ to bear its increasing intensity. Much as I have resisted the notion, I suppose I have to ground myself from meditating and start grounding the energy or do energy work...  emoticon

Any suggestions other than disrobing and hitting the beaches? emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/8/18 10:59 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hi Yilun, if its in the Energetics trying to remain Equanamous is of no use. Its caused by the energy circulating on itself. Its common and once it gets back to a workable flow, you can go back to work. Once enough of your stuff has been purified the mind will have enough Insight to progress. Force the issue and you fry. 
If its in the nanas its for the mind to use so it can do what needs to be done. Thats how it worked for me. The ultimate lesson for me was assisted by the fry of reobservation, nothing else just pure fry. I lost all other experience, couldn't even hear over the horrible sound it made. My understanding by then knew that it was checkmate, the door was closed. I had kind of expected something like this. So i went about my business which did not involve doing anything about that.
About a year later i had the last experience of POI stuff. Now all that remains is the sensations known in the way people describe the shift, with the only difference to the general discription being no cycling,nana,fruition at all.

                                                                                                              

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/8/18 11:53 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.

cleared through the chakras to the one above the head and still it is going.


I don't know how this will end, but its reason why you get people to stop and get the energy to come down. If you dont you wiil develop symptoms resembling mental illness, hallucinations and run the risk of opening the crown. Then your world is madness. Ive been out the top but the crown closed when i came back in. I got lucky. Contact Yogani directly tell him what you think has happened. See if he can help. This is considered a very difficult situation. Don't use a energy worker is my understanding.                                                                                                             Be proactive get advice.


RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 1:06 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
The talk about finding your way through and the maps and stories about how they are doing it, don't appear to show the how. 


The Buddha said you can't break in. So don't try. There are no gates, its a mental prison.



The energy that must come down and go out the feet is you. Its not allowed up there. Its governed by vibration. Human or less is the best you can do. Or can learn to let it go. Practice but understand that this a non conceptual world. Not a head trip. Letting go is a real thing. At this level you should be seeing it happening. It certainly makes it less confusing, and more clear. When the crown is open you dont go up, it comes down and the process continues.

Thats what my experience seems to show.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 2:36 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Thanks Bigbird! During all recent sessions, I reach a point where everything is flowing, including in/out from the legs fine vibrations in every square inch of the body, stuff above the head (consciousness bounces up and down from there, quite a strange experience). This usually happens after a huge electrical zap that jolts the whole body; would that still mean that the energy has to come down? And if yes, (1) how do I make it do so?

I do go through Reobservation and yes sucks max.(2)  What do you mean by go through the pure fry of Reobservation? Can prolonging that help me? IF I am not equanimous to it, I am sure it will last very long!

(3) How does one know whether the crown closed or not? There's activity from tingling to crown pressures 24/7 up there. 3rd eye pressure has shifted upwards but when the top rains, the whole skull includes the teeth, shakes...

I am very sure this thing has made people very, very crazy, damn I have been manic with no depressive moods at all for months, everything is just nice and shiny. There are crazy thoughts but I can mostly bin them, although the doubts about practice keeps swimming around my head whilst the strange positivity simply gets me energetically going in many directions, trying new things, digging many shallow wells!!!

Concentration is sky-high and effortless, to the point it makes me feel like I am the alien in the body. Meditation basically goes on by itself, I tried day-dreaming and the same stuff goes on by itself, seemingly without my participation to power it. Visualizations are so easy, I cannot believe that I am the one doing it. It feels like I am the afterthought... I try screwing with POI progress, it goes on nicely without me! I can move/feel energy in the body, direct its flow, just by intending. I can do the single nostril breathing from one foot up one side of the body and down the other, without closing any nostrils. It's crazy, makes attempting to do the yoga/qigong physical exercises kind of like moot? I can just get them to move it in any nonsense position?

This thing is such a mystery! (4) Would this Yogani guy help? How do I contact him? Post on aypsite?

Thanks again! Help with this K thing is hard to find... _/ \_

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 3:52 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Bigbird:

 If you dont you wiil develop symptoms resembling mental illness, hallucinations and run the risk of opening the crown. 


Erm, hallucinations are a daily affair. Open-eyed mental imagery, you name it... I can get concentrated in broad daylight and have the mental imagery block information from the eyes, displaying only the funky stuff. If I venture out to the forest at night, the brighter spaces of the night sky behind the tree spaces - comes to live in the form of cartoonish characters, e.g. an old kungfu guy doing the moves. The mind seemingly grasps onto whatever it can make sense of and make it come alive. I can power visualization to get it crazier. I suppose this activity should be stopped? hahaha...

I am in a happy manical mood today - there is absolutely no reason for me to be happy in the midst of this K thingy. None at all...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 3:55 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Ive never met Yogani or been involved in AYP. I can't think who could have a better chance of knowing or knowing someone who can advise. I have heard that premature crown opening is a real challenge. Heading out into the spiritual market place-you dont know, who's what, youve seen the internet-its crazy.
I feel that Yogani is a safe direction. The answer may be stop practice-self pacing etc. I understand that, having to do that is going to suck. Its my attitude that the dharma belongs to all beings. So one yogi should be able to call out to another for help. So if Yogani has no contact-post it. You could include Yogani help. You may find others who have prematually opened the crown.
I do know that the greatest yogis that ever lived could not find ways around the problems that the energetics could develop. Even the Buddha. So they used the list of what is needed before you start. You may find that you have to stop until the balance is restored.
I will explain the reob fry experience later. 
Remain pro active about this. Premature crown openings happen. They produce this crazy stuff. So there normal symptoms. 
Start at AYP. There are others, i will post who i can think off when i find them.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 4:56 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Thanks Bigbird. I am not prideful to ask for help. The problem is no one seems able or wants to help and I am not in the position to offer an expert money to solve this! I have posted in aypsite before, all their answers are the same - go ground the thing (we are householders, they say). Posted again anyway. Damn did I hate that answer, so I went head in, diving into this K madness, trying to find a hole that I can punch out from. I can see that there is danger in continuing to do so as I am probably near the cusp of crossing into the neverland - the pain I am EQing is probably off the charts for most people and I am manic for far too long to be anywhere normal! emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 4:16 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Clearing to above the head would indicate open but tingling, pressure at crown would indicate closed. So its hard to confirm from what your saying. This is always with internet chat communication shortcomings.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 4:59 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
As I type, it is tingling from eyebrows to top to the back of the skull. What other information do you need? and what should I do? Go get some garden tools and start digging holes? emoticon 

I think you know that it is not possible to stop the K train. It has a mind of its own, like you have said before, it is not meditation! I am just the passenger watching with no control...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/9/18 6:45 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Just checked out your log. You're experiencing some intense stuff! I get tingling around my crown chakra too. Have you tried grounding yourself?

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/10/18 4:47 AM as a reply to Rebecca P.
I did try grounding last year (and on/off) but I didn't stick to it long enough to find out. I am a monk and my only purpose/job is THIS. If I am going to fry myself by doing so, at least there is a data point telling others not to push on when met with this K stuff. I think grounding has to be engaged for months to see results. e.g. I spent yesterday grounding and avoiding any concentration, got myself all tired and hit the sack. Guess what, halfway through falling asleep, the strongest ever energies slammed onto me. Like it is a choice whether I can avoid it and go to bed or not?!

I had to sit through it all (thank god it's pleasant but it is so powerful it is scary like Raiders of The Lost Ark ending scene complete with lights/energies/best HD holograms I've ever seen) till it lowers in intensity before I can attempt to sleep. That lasts about 2 hours. So grounding - doesn't seem to work but I haven't persisted with it long enough. Screw that, I'll go with the possibility of frying myself and serving as a bad example. Hahaha...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/10/18 6:30 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Just another idea...

There will always be new sensations as the body re-wires itself, so in that sense K is inevitable -- it's happened to everyone I know with a long-term practice.

But it also seems like resisting and indulging make it worse. Sometimes people try to forcibly ground themselves and that effort makes it worse. Sometimes people try to make it happen more extremely and more quickly and that effort makes it worse.

The people that seem to get through it best are ones that have time to stay gently physically active (walking, working) during the day, use something other than the K symptoms as mediation objects, eat good food, and then let themselves rest at night. Sleeping can be goofy, but it is important to slightly fatigue the body during the day and also have enough food and rest/sleep where the mind can do it's modifications. 

People tend to make things >>worse<<< by exercising too hard and exhausting themselves, focus on the K symptoms as meditation objects, eating too little and/or just fruit/carbs, and not letting themselves lie down for long enough during the night. 

Basically, a lot of the time people resist or indulge in K symptoms and that makes it worse. It's important to understand that there is nothing "wrong" or "insightful" about K symptoms, it's just the body rewiring itself. Unfortunately, there is too much legend about K that makes it seem like a super special thing, but it's closer to the body farting as it is digesting food. emoticon

Best wishes!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/10/18 6:58 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:

Basically, a lot of the time people resist or indulge in K symptoms and that makes it worse. It's important to understand that there is nothing "wrong" or "insightful" about K symptoms, it's just the body rewiring itself. Unfortunately, there is too much legend about K that makes it seem like a super special thing, but it's closer to the body farting as it is digesting food. emoticon

Best wishes!
Thank you very much! That is what I will do, Sir! emoticon

It is extremely hard to prevent attention from going to them, I suppose I am to find the stillpoint? That is a tough exercise when they are raging though. I succeed doing so in the day, but the nights are practically impossible...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/10/18 8:46 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
You're brave, with a certain nobility about you. I admire that very much. I can imagine it must be exciting to feel such changes occurring. I know when I get the intense chills, I feel quite invigorated about it. Perhaps for you it has become routine. I suppose when you're floating so high, grounding isn't an easy thing to accomplish.
You've piqued my interest in doing my own kundalini practice, but I don't know if I'm ready or if I would be skilled enough.
And please don't fry yourself! Who else is going to laugh at my jokes?

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/10/18 11:20 AM as a reply to Rebecca P.
Kundalini yoga? I think Qigong and most forms of yoga are very beneficial to body/mind and you can start doing them if you have the time to do so. However, I would not attempt to wake it up via methods other than if they come along with meditation and breathing exercises (Spinal Breathing Pranayama or Microcosmic Orbit). Everyone who has gone past a certain point in this journey has these K stuff and it is best to have them behave in a balanced, blissful manner - although we cannot choose and we shouldn't try to. I think right view is to not want/reject having such experiences and instead welcome whatever comes our way... See how much the silly me has suffered to reach this point of understanding? Thanks shargrol!

Best to learn from others' silly mistakes haha. <- I'm not good at that, at all! Nobility yes if you mean Court Jester! emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/10/18 3:13 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hello Yilun,

Mostly lurker here, but been thinking of your encounter with the Mother force and you coming to the same conclusion as I found in a wonderful little scripture called "The Mother Book" , surrender. Although I can in no way claim the perfect surrender this book speaks about. I see it as inspiration and transmission to read her words.

The book speaks of that part of the journey when the force descends from above and awakens from below and starts to live you. It's a short read but contains her force and wisdom. Maybe it can give you some further clarity and confirmation.

Remember that it's channeled from a more devotional context than usual to Buddhism. Hopefully it will not put you off. It might also be of interest to those evoking magicians who frequent the forum.   

A taste of the language.     

"There are two powers that alone can effect in their conjunction the great and difficult thing which is the aim of our endeavour, a fixed and unfailing aspiration that calls from below and a supreme Grace from above that answers."

"The surrender must be total and seize all the parts of the being. It is not enough that the psychic should respond and the higher mental accept or even the inner vital submit and the inner physical consciousness feel the influence. There must be in no part of the being, even the most external, anything that makes a reserve, anything that hides behind doubts, confusions and subterfuges, anything that revolts or refuses ."

"The last stage of this perfection will come when you are completely identified with the Divine Mother and feel yourself to be no longer another and separate being, instrument, servant or worker but truly a child and eternal portion of her consciousness and force. Always she will be in you and you in her; it will be your constant, simple and natural experience that all your thought and seeing and action, your very breathing or moving come from her and are hers."

https://www.auro-ebooks.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Sri-Aurobindo-The-Mother.pdf





RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/10/18 8:55 PM as a reply to Jyet.
Thanks Jyet! No I am not on any spiritual high ground that I am aware of hahaha. I appreciate reading all kinds of literature and I will dig into 'The Mother'  NOW, that you have so kindly linked! 

'The Mother'
to follow her movement is impossible even for the quickest mind and for the freest and most vast intelligence.
The above I have witnessed is so true. The stuff I experience are so blindingly fast, complex and powerful that it seems impossible to have came up from one mind. We shall not join others and get incensed, fight over the naming of phenomena that we all know are the same and true - God, Mother, emptiness, no-self, true-self, ok - gotcha!

May All Be Happy & Free! emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/22/18 5:20 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hi Yilun,
            Hope all is well. I thought the AYP forum gave pretty good feedback during your last enquiry. Christi presents ideas well. If your doing some of the AYP practice, please send me some feedback. How do you find it? Is it more effective with the energetics than Satipathana? Tell me whatever you think is worth telling.

I have been meaning to catch up. Are you still going to Sri Lanka? You may have left already. I know a monastery, its got all the right stuff. Im not sure what you have in mind. At this monastery they practice long hours per day. The early Kundalini, may not allow you to practice at that level. It may be to much for the energetics. I remember awhile back you were not to happy about the idea of self pacing. Your a Monk. If you can't practice much, the monastic setting is not so usefull. I have seen other Monks with Kundalini, Insight disease. They are told to stop or reduce practice. They stay in the monastery. At the time i was going to suggest something. Christi said the same thing. If your on a reduced practice schedule, self pacing. Get a broom and sweep the paths. Those big fan brooms. You can make them yourself.

If you want to look into this monastery, i will give you the details. You never know, because of your situation there may be a way of staying there. I was going to go there, i got told it gets hot and the foods full of chilli's.
                                                                                                   Best Wishes.  

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/26/18 6:03 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Hey Bigbird! Thanks for checking in. Really appreciate your heartfelt concern! 

I have been trying to do more grounding but have not noted any noticeable effects. I have simply been generating more equanimity towards the painful stuff as frankly the 3Cs are the seal aren't they? Stuff come and go, are dissatisfactory, not within my control and are not me. What can I do about it? Nothing but rest in the transcience. Bad karma or purification - it is what it is and time/effort is best spent Vipassana-ing them rather than fight or wish them away haha.

I don't think the Kundalini stuff can kill me. As long as I do not identify with it, I am safe. And if I die/go crazy ploughing on nonetheless, people will know NOT to do it!!! emoticon

I don't really think what the Buddha taught for enlightenment is that complex and that I have not completely understood the teachings. Satipatthana is sufficient IMO - we really need to dig in our heels and see it through to the very ends. I intend to simply travel around Sri Lanka, Dhutanga-style so as to build in more physical routine into the practice, find suitable places and keep hopping around the island. Just enjoy myself while practicing!

Thanks for recommending the monastery though, maybe you can let me know the name and I can try to pay a short visit? 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/27/18 3:58 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
All Day Long:

I just do nothing for almost all activities for extended periods and slow way, way down to Observation Mode of firstly - Attention. Completely no hold on attention and let it surf, do not allow for any actions until I have watched the intentions, held that and satisfied with observing that - watch what the mind does in all the dharma I know in a totally uncontrived, non-searching manner - specifically 3Cs, Clinging Aggregates, Dependent Origination, Satipatthana. I trust that I already know the Dharma inside/out.

There will be times where some/all 3Cs will show themselves, there will be times when I watch the mind cognize objects of attention or struggle to make sense (frustration/fear),.choose preferences or feelings of pleasant/neutral/unpleasant, there are times when I see it crave/averse/cling/habits, there are times where I see 'why' - the conditions of rebirth. Basically the poor fellow just wants to be safe and happy, it is worried that I cannot take care of myself. Keep letting the 3Cs show themselves to the mind, especially Impermanence so that it can let go and let things be. Only control 'making' awareness going wide to deal with troublesome sensations like itch/pain whilst watching it change or go away, whilst I check for excess mental weight distribution.

My alarm bells ring when: 

1. I notice a clinging to self, or an idea of it; 
2. Greed, Ill-will, Ignorance;
3. Crave/Aversion/Clinging;
4. All forms of suffering - check to see if excess mental weight has been misplaced;
5. Thoughts drifting too far into past/future fantasy - bring it back;

- Investigate, see why, debunk gently (if necessary) and drop into choiceless mode again. Use the sighing breath as "Relinquishing" into wide, diffuse Awareness as often as necessary to ground/re-center myself back into this mode. Watch the breath change and when attention goes to it for refuge.

I stop trying to be a controller and be like a parent simply watching the kid in the playground, never interrupting unless something dangerous pops up to gently steer the kid back to safety or to reinforce some guiding knowledge. Is the key to liberation: to allow the old, troubling stuff to unfold naturally, turn out just fine and keep witnessing that?

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/30/18 3:38 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.

http://www.nissarana.lk/most-venerable-udaeriyagama-dhammajiva-maha-thero/

Hi Yilun,
             Hope your doing ok.

Once the energetics get out of balance, they can stay that way for a long time. This is often because it was going to happen anyway. From when the buzzing began it was set. This happens. Don't forget this is Premature Kundalini Awakening.

Above is the Monk, i recommend. I did retreats with the local Sri Lankans up at Jhana Grove. His instruction can vary alot from pupil to pupil. His knowledge was vast. He may be able to help. 

He has Mahasi training and is aware of all the maps. So he can relate on that aspect, including multiple others. 

                                                                                                                                                            Best Wishes.                                                                                                                        


RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
4/30/18 8:07 PM as a reply to Bigbird.
Thanks Bigbird! I'm doing great! Found some methods to spread and work with K, will post when I have time. How about you and your Kundalini stuff? Is it still ongoing? Your experience can help many, do share? I'll try to pay the teacher a visit and seek his consult.

For the sake of other readers, I suggest we do not use the word premature, it's making Kundalini seem like a bad thing and that there is a right/wrong way/time to it. It is what it is, it happens when it happens; not useful to judge it especially with feelings and we deal with it skilfully - mostly to do with acceptance, surrendering and working with the energies... emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/8/18 4:26 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
The 7 schools of Yoga have been around since before Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Taoism, Buddhism. Although its difficult to authenticate who the real Swami's are, there is a similar trail of information that goes way back. Some areas of Kundalini have consistent opinions. Preparation is one of them. I'm not saying things are good or bad, or am i trying to scare people. Even the Buddha had requirements to be perfected before doing practices that could activate these experiences.

Explosive Kundalini Awakening.
With 6 or 7 Days of meditation experience i had complete purification of the central canal then around in the head and down the front, every chakra up to the throat fully activated. The 3rd eye was significantly open. It didn't stop there, in the head i had a blackout ceasation then it kept going,through Bindu then 3 maybe 4 more chakras. Obviously little of what functions i have; got out there, only a facility,was that mine i don't know. Some form of mental seeing was operating but no processing was. The person next to me said that from the time i went quiet to when i opened my eyes was 5 minutes or more. Getting back together was one bumpy ride, even got stuck in a vibration for a while. When the mind came back online i got to see how; what we experience through the senses is fabricated from our side. The crown closed.

In isolation from information i had  Sankaras coming up, POI cycling and Kundalini going full force. All the sounds, visuals, mental agitation from to much energy. Even the nectar dripping down the throat for awhile. I had automatic responses to contact. If the feeling was pleasant, the response was danger. I thought that part was hilarious. People who get excesive Kundalini stuff, have nothing to fear. If they work with it and not fight with it, it will work out in time. It is difficult often very uncomfortable but ive never heard, not worth it. For me it took 6 years to really get it all flowing. That was about the same time POI ran its course. I don't think thats a coincidence.

I wrote about those years hoping Daniel or someone may have offered some feedback that would be of use to you. There was nothing. All that stuff that came up and passed away were results of the delusion of a self. Sankaras. In the beginning i could recognise exact moments in my life now and then, until i was told not to entertain this stuff, just let it go. After years of practice  the mental factor would come out so fast, it was a blur. The conditioning at the elements and vedana level, repeated the same pattern pleasant, unpleasant.Pleasure, pain. Ecstasy, agony. Craving, averson. Eventually i got to neither pleasant nor unpleasant, it took time. The experience was a living hell but absolutely amazing. The POI cycles blips ect, were like falling of a log. When the process was established at a certain stage. A cycle would complete. I did not regard them as what they are claimed to be. I had some early periods of prominent experience being POI. The nanas from Dissolution to Reobservation matched Daniels discriptions perfectly. Also at the 5 year mark, some extreme POI aspects. The final shift is as they say, also things arise but as an impersonal process, thats clearly seen, as they say. For me the nanas broke apart as well.

Not having the exposer to the ideas about what this all means, i disregard it. The Sankaras though very subtle and Kundalini continue, and rightfully so, they are aspects of the same thing. So i keep practicing. Ive been posting about the practice i used on Curious's thread. Obviously i have you in mind. I do have a few suggestions, and will mention them another time. There only suggestions based on my experience. Above is pretty much a general overview on how things went.

I'm not prepared to disregard traditional views on subjects. They are just as relivant today as they were then. This is yogic stuff, although we have advanced in ways that would have probably been unimaginable back then. Apart from the Buddha, there has been no advances in the yogic stuff, in fact we may have gone backwards to the point of reinventing the flat tyre.


Below is a fairly common traditional yogic Kundalini view.
Deleted due possible copywrite. Ref: Kundalini Tantra. Swami S Saraswati. Ch 6: Preparations for Awakening.
One thing of interest, is that even an awakening with preparation first, seems to have alot of dificulties. I might deleat this soon as its property of the author, though i'm sure he would'nt mind. If you cross reference with other Swami's and their traditions you will see alot of similarities. Of course i recommend a thorough general look at Kundalini, then let it go. Though be clear with people that A&P=Kundalini. Just depends on how it unfolds. A&P is insight into the material aspect of phenomena. That is the limit one can investigate the material aspect. Kundalini can awaken now.
As above.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/1/18 4:07 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Sounds like you had a lot going on there too! Now, how would it be useful to classify your experience as premature or not? If someone told you it is a premature experience, ask him what is the difference in dealing with it as the word makes it sound like you did something wrong and should be guilty or reverse time to correct some errors? Premature ejaculation is something that should maybe be worked on, but K - no difference either way, no? Search Chuck Kashmire here - in his pdf, he went though 2.5 years of Kundalini after awakening. Post-mature, but painful nonetheless.

Have your Kundalini symptoms totally receded, how long did they take to go away? Do you think you are past MCTB 4th path already? Do you think that you stopped POI cycling due to you not paying attention to them for prolonged periods or for another reason? As that is contradictory to Daniel's claims in MCTB. It is so interesting to see how the K lines up with this advancement, though I doubt it is closely related as the majority who got past the K stuff aren't enlightened by this pragmatic measure. I am sure they are a lot more compassionate though...

Are you liking the mystical aspects of Kundalini a bit too much, Bigbird? IMO, it is just energetic flow related to rewiring necessary for enlightenment - most have it before, some have it after. It is definitely not A&P, I go through A&P with K layered on top. Unless you are saying you are having a 6 year POI Stage 4: A&P? It will drive people to wrong conclusions and thus practices if we go along and propagate the myths. I frankly do not think practicing by all these old technical knowledges e.g. chakras, channels are of any use - e.g. sending me to go check on my assumed premature crown opening, etc. There shouldn't be anything to fear of any chakra other than good use of attentional breathing techniques to soothe/spread out the energetics. I do not think grounding is the solution either. It is a temporary measure to get people to get used to the strong symptoms. I might go mad or get through this by bashing through it anyhow. I think this information will be useful to others.

I suggest we soothe people when we encounter them. I would instead congratulate whomever has Kundalini Awakening symptoms and tell them to simply ignore all the dogma (there is nothing practical to find there), trust it won't kill/harm them and just proceed without fear. I don't find all the information gathering the past months, at the expense of simple 3C practice of any benefit at all to be honest. I have been guilty of trying to find some secret master/teachings to get me out of my misery instead of trusting the exquisitely simple instructions of the Buddha. Now, after simply being okay with the K energetics, they can go on about their business and if I choose to interfere, step in with a modified pranayama/qigong routine to spread them out and move on nonchalantly. It is time for me to drop this spiritual greed  and simply return to dilligent practice! The advice to stick to one practice should not be taken lightly. Liberation is not beyond the 3Cs, is it not? emoticon

All the best to you, dear friend. you have a heart of gold...

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/1/18 6:14 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
I don't have the data on this, but it seems to me like Kundalini is very much a upt to 1st and up to 2nd path thing.

Some people go through a lot of purification during first path, mostly associated with the dark night nanas, with experiences of negative sensations passing and the "release" that follows". This is has a feel of psychological-spiritual refinement, finding union with the shadow, etc. There is a lot of change, but the self/body doesn't really change that much.

Pretty much everyone goes through a significant body rewiring up to 2nd path. This rewiring feels deeper that psychological shadow, more with the processing system, and the chakra "idea" becomes much more obvious as an experience. The rewiring really does cluster around the chakra areas, but it is also clear that much of the chakra descriptions are poetry and not litterally specific colors or spins -- but definitely something is happening there. This is also when people can have fruitions and immaterial jhana experiences, which really adds a lot of dimensions to the psyche and the body/mind really feels like it has changed. In fact, people may begin to identify with these subtle changes and think that enlightenment must be the complete/deep rewring of the body/mind.

Ironically, this view of deep rewiring falls apart during the road to 3rd path. Instead of becoming "better" better wired, more sensitve, more pure... what actually happens is that the empty/meaningless aspect starts becoming evident. This is a huge shock to our pride. During second path we thought we were becoming the ultimate sage, pure body, pure jhanas, etc. While the changes keep occuring to some degree or another, depending on the person, what becomes really obvious is that all experiences come and go, so they can't be "it". So this stage tends to be when kundalini dies down. Also, the changes in purity and sensitivity, etc. just make it easier to see more subtle impurity and insensitivity -- in a wierd way it feels like we have taken two steps forward and one step back. People find all sorts of ways to rationalize this and say that spirituality ends before 3rd path is reached.

The road to 4th path is all about making peace with how things actually are, without sugar coating it, and yet still investigating, even investigating the investigating. It's a very subtle blend of inquiry and not-doing in a way that can't be appreciated by someone that hasn't gone through all the changes above. It is very very subtle and yet requires very very strong psychological resilance. It's looking right at nothingness and not loving, not hating, and not blinking. It has aspects of looking at the "I will die" sensation in the psyche. By this stage, there isn't much kundalini, except for odd moments when really strong jhanas will hit, almost like a protective mechanism, when things get too edgy or cut too close to "self". People find all sorts of ways to rationalize this and might say that spirituality ends before 4th path is reach. 4th path really clarifies the thing that drove the search in the first place in a pardoxical way, with the intention to search being what the searching was trying to find.

Hope this is helpful in some way.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/1/18 6:22 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
4th path really clarifies the thing that drove the search in the first place in a pardoxical way, with the intention to search being what the searching was trying to find.

Hope this is helpful in some way.
Thank you very much! Extremely helpful and strengthens my resolve not to identify with the Kundalini stuff. 

The above is very profound and I suppose one cannot jump straight onto that! _/ \_

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/1/18 8:13 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Shargol, 

 I am not on a traditional path - that I know of - and who knows what "path' I am at.  Clearly the mind is actively dropping identification with a self at all and this is just this.  Interestingly,  it is something that I have had access to for years now in meditation, but slowly slowly it is becoming the default metaphysiscs of the mind even in previously very stressful situations.  That said, my system wants to rid itself of nervous tension by any means neccessary.  Everything is just letting go and shedding tension in giant hours long releases day after day.  I think this is what folks call kundalini.  This tension is created by subconsious subminds that are still hanging onto some narrative that causes it to be concerned and tense.  At first, as each new, deeper buried, submind became convinced that it was hanging onto nonsense, it let go and the tension released.  Now, the mind no longer buys into the whole category and tension is released as it comes into consciousness, but there is a near infinite amount!  The result is a deeply relaxed nervous system with a big old marley grin and a clear path to a state of complete ease and satisfaction.  It features a flatness of experience where there is no interior monologue or "feelings".  I am this.  The mind is widening out to inifitity and absent flaw nothing ever really changes and is always absolutely perfect.  This seems to be the end state that this system is winding down to. 

I do not feel done as I am still going through the tension release and I still find myself self identified at times through out the day.  I am still running a business and living with my family so I think if I were a monk the amount of selfing would be alot less - it is for me even on a 10 day retreat - 


I am interested in you experience of 4th path and how it relates? 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/1/18 2:23 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
Oh, good question Seth... By the way, I don't think anyone really has "a traditional path". Mostly, these maps are just averages of multiple datapoints, not necessarily the one right way or anything like that...

I guess what I would say about what you are describing and how it might relate to 4th path, so to speak, is basically two things...

At a certain point, all the gross impurities burn off, and you are left with a feeling/experiencing organism which still feels tension and discomfort but it becomes clear, in time, that this tension and discomfort isn't "wrong" or "not spiritual", rather it reflects the reality of this meat computer needing to navigate a changing world. There is a wise sense that we will always be a work in progress. There can be a tendency to avoid this idea and the normal living aspect of tension/discomfort/pain feelings etc. --- which is basically spiritual bypassing. This is really really really common up to 3rd path, so to speak. It can take a lot to let go of this idea of perfection and find the humility in being a lump of red flesh after all. But there is also a huge relief associated with this realization, as you can imagine when a perfectionist finally really does r...e...l...a...x.  Perfection is not required for awakening, wow! And yet the habitual mindfulness/release continues. For me it was like watching my body/mind doing spiritual practice on it's own, while realizing that all of that activity was sort of beside the point. I could let go when practice itself, the intensity of seeking, was indulgent. I saw the futility in the ignorance of spiritual bypassing mentality (i.e., pretending I was any different that I was.) Hard to explain, but the result is a big drop in tension. Practice was basically doing itself and I could trust it and if I was imperfect, no big deal.

(This is about when people can become very good spiritual teachers because they finally have the patience for people going through their problems, in their own way, in their own time, with their own thoughts... there is much much less of a need to fix people or to make them think right. It's possible to see how everyone is working out their problems in their own way and they just need a nudge this way of that, at most. It's usually obvious at this point that all philosophies/models/map help as much as they hurt. )

Ususally there is a period of time afterwords where practice seems useless and unnecessary. And then there is the little tickle that something isn't "done", there must be something that is being "overlooked". That's the classic 4th path problem. And usually it is resolved by looking very closely at this remaining "I am" experience. Not that "I am" is wrong and needs to go away for ever --- that's more of a 3rd path attitude. On the road up to 4th, there is simply the curiousity about "what does it mean 'not to be done'?" and "what does it mean when I say/think 'I am' if I have seen through the I-am-ness of sensations, urges, emotions, and thoughts? What am I missing?"

Hope this helps!

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/1/18 3:29 PM as a reply to shargrol.
Thanks for the response!   The tension release stuff is the very essence of what is happening to this nervous system.   My mind seems to be effectively reconditioning itself to accept the magnifigance of its own irrelevance and it just wants to let all the way go.   I wonder if you have heard of anything similar? 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/1/18 6:54 PM as a reply to seth tapper.
Sure, I would say everyone goes through this. Lots of different words for it, lots of different versions of it: renunciation, letting go, purification, kundalini, mindfulness, vipassina, breaking the link of dependent origination, seeing emptiness in real time, some say dzogchen, just sitting, mahamudra -- and of course these are all subject to definition and debate and fundamentalism but basically the commonality is they are all pointing toward fundamentally dropping suffering/contraction as soon as it arises in consciousness/semi-consciousness.

I usually like to call this tension-release aspect either "purification" (if there is a proto-emotional tonality to it) or "seeing emptiness in real time" (for the cleanest version of seeing both the objectness and objectlessness of each thing in an instant). 



LATER ADDITION:

And one nice thing about this, as you already know, it kind of does itself at the pace that makes sense, so it really is a matter of trusting your instincts and following your personal path. 


Hope this helps!.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/2/18 5:57 AM as a reply to seth tapper.
seth tapper:
...it just wants to let all the way go...

Just as an added poetic point, the "letting be, letting go" is wisdom, whereas the "wanting to let go all the way" is suffering, albeit very advanced suffering.

Centering yourself in the current moment of "letting be, letting go" is enough and you'll notice that it is all that can be done.

There will probably be thoughts and resistance about the inadequacy of "just this moment", in which case, simply notice those as thoughts and emotional resistance. Don't try to change them or rationalize them away, just notice thoughts and resistance related to "wanting to let all the way go..." as upwellings of the mind and love them as the natural protective urge that they are. That's it. Basically, the whole path is the replacing the natural protective urge with natural mindfulness of this moment, which is the real protection. 

The self is a creation that allows us to protect this being by protecting our "sense of self". Very practical. The problem is this sense of self is an odd creation that winds up creating suffering when things are okay, because we're compulsively still trying to protect the self. When we sit in meditation, we can see this natural protective urge rise up and compell us with thoughts and emotions about events that aren't really happening. So mediation is about finding a home in the current moment, mindful and unswayed by compulsions.

May this be helpful. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/2/18 7:22 AM as a reply to shargrol.
Just as an added poetic point, the "letting be, letting go" is wisdom, whereas the "wanting to let go all the way" is suffering, albeit very advanced suffering. 


My own way of expressing this, probably far less coherently, is that one cannot use aversion to work with aversion. The same is true on clinging. That's another reason this practice is so hard - we just have to reach a certain "place" from which to be most effective. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/2/18 8:08 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
So antidoting must never work for anyone then, huh?   :/ 


RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/2/18 9:52 AM as a reply to Noah D.
Not in this realm :-)

Seriously, though, can you elaborate on antidoting?

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/2/18 10:00 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I'm also interested in hearing about antidoting. It strikes me as a very nuanced idea that touches on the domains of skillful means vs. repression vs. the dzogchen-ish idea of self-liberating, etc.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/2/18 11:16 AM as a reply to shargrol.
I find that in meditation the mind will let go of the myth of itself as a leprechaun in control and all of the tension in the body is available for release.  When I say it wants to release, i mean the experience of letting the mind rest on a muscle with tension and at first it feels like it is pain that you have no control over, then it becomes pain that you are making and then the mind knows the pain is meaningless and it can let it go and it does and the muscle relaxes - often with a involuntary contraction that can be very painful.  This has been my experience, but on a nervous system wide basis and for thousands and thousands of hours.  Maintaining equanimity and not rendering a self with feelings as these releases occur has been the main impediment.  Each release brings with it sensations and thought streams and the mind eventually gets lost in one, but it no longer gets stuck inside a protagonist for very long.  I believe in ends with a nervous system with virtually no tension, not as a goal, but as a side effect of not believing in a self that has anything to be tense about.   I cannot quite understand why this isnt happening to you guys. 

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/8/18 4:42 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.

Yilun
If someone told you it is a premature experience, ask him what is the difference in dealing with it as the word makes it sound like you did something wrong and should be guilty or reverse time to correct some errors?


Hi Yilun,
the word sounding like you did something wrong can be in ones own dynamics-from childhood experiences for example.Certainly would throw a spanner into understanding my intentions. My intention would be concerned with-was something wrong done based on a lack of understanding of a better option, is this ongoing. Is the practitioner unaware of the trend regarding the practice, based on mass practitioners experiences. Is there a misunderstanding, or is the practitioner not interested. In which case leave them alone.

This is the result of a choice by myself, to present, acknowledge, support and encourage a code of what is best overall view to encourage regarding meditation. Such as. To check it out first. Get informed. Some practices can have permanent concequences. There are traditional preparation standards that are showing to have merit, based on present day results. If you want to get into this stuff. Use the knowledge now available. Have a realistic psychlogical profile of yourself. Run it by qualified people, a number of them to be sure, Make sure you have access to experienced technical support, preferably a teacher. Advice on internet forums can be coming from good intentions but no experience.

Thats why i point out Premature Awakening. Not to shame. To present, make it known that there are opinions. These opinions can have merit. If your the practitioner, don't hold back from pointing out things going wrong. If you don't like the wrong, try more difficult. Use it to add to (not dogma), but statistical knowledge that can be accessed by those taking up the practice. This is a choice, opinions on detail will vary. Don't sit on the fence waiting for what are the dominent opinions. Just start, put it out there, if yours isn't the one, look at whats dominent. Its probably better than yours. Its clear lots of other people do it. Daniel Ingram also is promoting an approach that is not his personal choice, because of difficulties  people are having. Its early days. There is alot of potental in using both the good and bad results of many practitioners.

In a possible future if a person wants to meditate, they can access stats. Average Joe coming on 40. Married, kids, morgage. Had a managable daily drinking problem since 18. A  20 a day smoker, suffers from depression. Wants to use meditation to turn his life around. Instead of  being told. Great idea! It could read, great idea. You've got 22 years of substance abuse under your belt. Mindfullness practices can develop into a no turning back process. Stats with substance abuse show a high rate of difficult symptoms. Its not uncommon to experience periods of instability and loss of function. What? Could involve some down time, or add degree's of difficulties to daily life. What?How difficult?For how long? Joe can be shown the results. Understanding of his current responsibilities- he can make an informed decision-say not at the moment, what else have you got. 

Yilun
It is definitely not A&P, I go through A&P with K layered on top.It will drive people to wrong conclusions and thus practices if we go along and propagate the myths. I frankly do not think practicing by all these old technical knowledges e.g. chakras, channels are of any use - e.g. sending me to go check on my assumed premature crown opening, etc. There shouldn't be anything to fear of any chakra other than good 


A&P=Kundalini
means at first proper A&P(insight into the material aspect of phenomena) Kundalini can awaken. The meditation now inclines to the mental aspect. So it doesn't mean Kundalini and A&P have a ongoing connection. At A&P rupa (corporeal) and nama(mental attributes) or matter-mind this is when Vipassana commences. Psychosomatic means mind (psyche) and body (soma). Thats why Kundalini can get called the Psychosomatic Serpent.
I assume what you said to be important.
You said you were above the head. I recommended getting things checked out. If you go back and read the posts you will see, it was one of your more challenging periods. It was a good time to consolidate. I think. The explanation above, including how it could develop is not some idea that i have. The intention is fact, where it may lead is fictitious but inline with the heart felt intention. So throwing shame or instilling fear isn't there.

Yilun
This K thing is mystifying, it has cleared through the chakras to the one above the head and still it is going. I can't push on even though I increase EQ to bear its increasing intensity.

Bigbird
Clearing to above the head would indicate open but tingling, pressure at crown would indicate closed.
So its hard to confirm from what your saying. This is always with internet chat communication shortcomings.


Thats not EQ. Its not EQ of formations and its not the other one that you develop.
You don't decide to be EQ. Either you have EQ or you don't. Increase to bare. You should look at that. Decreasing or letting go of resistance to accept, helps develop EQ. Allowing phenomena to present itself as it is, develops EQ. Goenke says remain EQ, but its a figure of speech-more stay calm. When you do develop that EQ. You can't increase it. You can't keep it. You can know when its present and know when its not present. You must keep developing it.Its a quality of Enlightment.I know people say that they are being EQ or remaining EQ. That would be whats called interllectual EQ. You can stay on the breath, that is a more legit form of EQ. The interlectual EQ is a standard beginning. Its worth analysing how to develop EQ. What are the practices that drive the development. Both EQ and Letting Go may start from a affirmation type but should be developed to become the real thing.Have a look at Dharmajiva's- In this life itself, chapter 8 Contenplation on feelings.Develop awareness of the indifferent feeling. You need to develop awareness into the nature of both the pleasant and unpleasant feeling. The nature of pain involves observing pain, same with pleasure. Don't do this thing where you try to get the three fold quality of feelings, first. Its to be developed.

Yilun
use of attentional breathing techniques to soothe/spread out the energetics

. I do not think grounding is the solution either. It is a temporary measure to get people to get used to the strong symptoms. I might go mad or get through this by bashing through it anyhow. I think this information will be useful to others.

I suggest we soothe people when we encounter them.

 I would instead congratulate whomever has Kundalini Awakening symptoms and tell them to simply ignore all the dogma (there is nothing practical to find there), trust it won't kill/harm them and just proceed without fear. I don't find all the information gathering the past months, at the expense of simple 3C practice of any benefit at all to be honest. I have been guilty of trying to find some secret master/teachings to get me out of my misery instead of trusting the exquisitely simple instructions of the Buddha.

Are you liking the mystical aspects of Kundalini a bit too much, Bigbird?


The things that i would follow would be what is the current most prominent performers, as long as it was not high risk or something like that. If that means thats a 3000 year old piece of information. If thats still the proven performer by todays current experiences. It is what it is. Obviously its subjective. 
I don't have a problem with mystical. I'm quite comfortable seeing the story of Adam and Eve both a metaphorical story from the Old Testament and a catagorically accurate understanding of something. As long it doesn't involve being facinated, amazed or in awe of some ambiguous, open ended, paradox.emoticonI prefer particle physics theory with what can't possibly be imagined in the mix.
The stuff that the yogi was saying about preparation and results, had alot of accuracy, regarding sushumna awakening, and possible effects when applied to the current experience practitioners have today. I only used that piece to show you that these old ideas still stand. Until something better is known- Thats where i sit.
I'm not traditional at all. Put some substance on table and i'm in, and that will be usefull for to others as well. Its good to examine the established or presented ideas and be skeptical, thats what people should do. Don't forget you are now in the process of dropping one view and taking up another. Your saying you realise the problem with the other, and promote the new one as the correct view. Thats good, it still has to work, be varified. Alot of the existing ideas you have negated, then introduced a counter idea of your own, you didn't really give a reasonable trial to the existing ones and the ones you have introduced you have not trialed either. Somewhere along the line, you will need to follow through, and find a source, something tangable. It may not be the best word, but will do. Develop something tangable is probably a better term, because its something for you, not for anyone else.

The websites are as close as i could reasonably find about what i call dynamics. Its been 25 years. Its all been split up. Though i think may have spotted why Noah is not happy with New- Age. They are sticking there nose into Psychology and turning into, its bad i was only in there for a momement- Fourth Force, Ultimate Development, Cosmic Humanist, Perfect Health, Shirley MacLaine, im out thats 3 paragraphs. Should send a whole squadron of Nanas in there and half a dozen Kundalini's.                                                                                                 
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evil-deeds/200806/essential-secrets-psychotherapy-the-inner-child
http://joy2meu.com/inner_child.htmlhttps://healthpsychologyconsultancy.wordpress.com/2012/04/21/who-is-your-inner-child/
http://learningcircle.ubc.ca/files/2011/03/UBC-Learning-Circle-March-10th-2011-Addiction-and-Codependency.pdf
http://relational-integrative-psychotherapy.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Chapter-15-Systemic-Theory-and-Therapy-handout.pdf

There is a psychological component, its a pattern of dynamics that are operating.The term i remember was Systemic Dynamics.
It involves a number of participants, eg a Family. Its when a group breaks into a system of roles, to compensate for dysfunction. This means each individual develops a very strong pattern of behavior, regarding a few key issues. That means there will be a low number, maybe 3 very strong, almost guaranteed responses to situations, but may have a few more variations. It was called acting out. Often this is a case of young children being put into a situation where they have to drop their need for nurturing, and start playing a role. This is where Inner Child stuff came from. As adults they can be high functioning, but will have these buttons, that produce a consistent predictable response. Its compulsive. Awareness of it doesn't work that well, the dynamics win everytime.

My personal opinion is being a meditator with Kundalini, use the opportunity to work directly with the psychology. Do a Goenke and use the technique to penitrate through, to what is often called the subconcious mind, which he calls concious mind, as its aware 24/7. It is the mind that the yogis that don't sleep mostly use, so i guess its the concious mind. This stuff will be what Goenke calls the deep complexes. Deep,like grooves cut in, so you fall in everytime, its the same as the term hardwiring, or deeply engrained neural pathways. Its only eradicating a few massive pathways, in form of a huge amount of of energy. You can try and penitrate from the surface, which i would consider the equivalent of penitrating a 1 foot thick concrete wall by licking it with your tongue. The reason why i say that is because the master controller is only sensate, and you will work with the conceptual mind-the surface. You will be talking to the assistant. Not even that. Everthing is at odds. Every contact is a conditioned response. The energetic component first then the assistant, then back and forth. They don't work well. You wouldn't penitrate, to any degree that would be effective.

At the sensate level its entirely different. Learning to recognise the Sankaras, then EQ observing using the breath, will cause them to become weaker and start to oscillate and break up. As they rise up into the energetics, the mental factor will respond like a parrot, only now there's no delusion. You've got both aspects in your field of awareness, two parts of the one experience. 

Anyway its looks like your moving out of the Kundalini Information Network. Sounds like a good move. Simple instructions of the Buddha-thats as good as it gets, but instructions not creations. Not having any real discriptions about POI, Goenke, Kundalini and using Satipathana was probably easier for me than you've got it. Understanding the theory was more complicated than doing the practice, as three different traditions each had taken an aspect and made it the whole show. I got on the net around 6.5 years from starting. A thread with Daniel-san was the first.
Having done Goenke was ideal. It came with the perfect outlook.
Whatever happens is what happens. Perfect for Satipathana.

Trusting the Buddha-i don't know about that. Metaphorically speaking the instruction and practice is the Buddha for me. So it has to perform, verify be tangible. It does that.

Yilun
Liberation is not beyond the 3Cs, is it not? 

emoticon

I may misunderstand. The 3Cs themselves don't liberate,i think. In fact i think one could have never heard of 3Cs and not be disadvantaged regarding liberation. I would think that doing whats written below would liberate. I would think that yogi in 2000 years would have done that. So if no one got liberated before the Buddha. Maybe the concept of the 3Cs, but the quality of the mind would be liberating factor. I'm not laying it out here-this is just ideas, as participation in discussion. I find alot of these discussions to indirect, because i don't know if what i think a person is saying is what that person means. The stuff below by Shargrol and Chris would be the qualities of mind and the liberating factors.

Satipathana
This "objective" way of looking at a thing, freed from considerations of the personal reactions to that thing, is the pith of the method and constitutes what is called "knowing as it is" (yathabhuta ñanadassana). Also by its quality of reckoning just what is present, mindfulness cuts down discursive thought and prepares the mind to take in the actual characteristics of the cognized objects. In this sense, mindfulness lets the objects speak for themselves and unfold their nature.


Shargrol
So mediation is about finding a home in the current moment, mindful and unswayed by compulsions.

Centering yourself in the current moment of "letting be, letting go" is enough and you'll notice that it is all that can be done.

Just as an added poetic point, the "letting be, letting go" is wisdom, whereas the "wanting to let go all the way" is suffering, albeit very advanced suffering. 


Chris
My own way of expressing this, probably far less coherently, is that one cannot use aversion to work with aversion. The same is true on clinging. That's another reason this practice is so hard - we just have to reach a certain "place" from which to be most effective. 


This is just my opinions, possible ideas,waffle. I left your question about Kundalini symptoms etc. I will do a timeline with discriptions of the symptoms. That will be next, if i you respond to this and i don't respond back its because there's no time at the moment. Dharmajiva knows about Buddha Medicine. He talk to me about it once, i don't know its limit. He's is kind, and Sri Lankans are easy to be around. 
                    Best Wishes.
 


RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/4/18 5:44 AM as a reply to Bigbird.
Bigbird, I think you mean really well and perhaps, just perhaps you are lost in the woods with the Kundalini stuff as well. Consider that others who are going through this will be massively confused and beaten up. What they really need is reassurance and solid guidance in the correct way of dealing with them and not throwing them further out in the woods. To be frank, your words could be confusing as you throw in big words and concepts, and do not explain their meaning and simplicity - this had caused me to go wild and lost in the unbeknownst, to go into a frantic search for THE information that will set me free, when the teachings and guidance are so, so simple. If someone with Kundalini comes around, I am not leaving the network. I will fight tooth and nail to present the simple information and make sure that they do not follow in my crazed, knowledge-based search. <- It is this seeking itself that keeps us from realizing our true enlightenment. AND practice seeing through with equanimity, acceptance and understanding. Letting go means the complete acceptance of this entire process, preferably without the dogma...

All the best to your practice. emoticon

Add: You may have something going on there about this K thing being possibly an addiction-based phenomenon for some. As long as it stays in the pathway of acknowledging the past/present addictions, not wishing them away, working on them gently/dilligently, it belongs where it belongs and is not to be obsessed over. Any obsession or tunnel-vision conceptualization is a strong attachment that must be released anyhow. It is dangerous to slap on more than what really is bare, simple and wanting to be understood.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/4/18 11:34 AM as a reply to Yilun Ong.
Hi Yilun,
             sorry about this morning. The internet over here is up the creek. I kept losing what was written, so when time was up it was a mess.
I posted it thinking it would vanish into the cloud. It didn't, so i followed up with a short explanation; Sorry about this unfinished stuff, i will get back to it and tidy and organise it so that it is coherant. "you beliefs don't count" wasn't part of any script, which is a why i attached a sorry on as soon as i noticed it. You may not have seen my appology by the time i deleted it. It was expressed!
                                                                                                                       Best Wishes.

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/4/18 9:31 PM as a reply to Bigbird.
NO worries at all Bigbird. A coincidence that Dhammajiva replied to a request I sent to that monastery last week. He said to simply balance walking and sitting meditation time spent. Have you tried abiding to that mid/long-term? He did not mention Buddha medicine emoticon

RE: Monk in the Mountain (Log)
Answer
5/8/18 6:22 PM as a reply to Yilun Ong.

NO worries at all Bigbird. A coincidence that Dhammajiva replied to a request I sent to that monastery last week. He said to simply balance walking and sitting meditation time spent. Have you tried abiding to that mid/long-term? He did not mention Buddha medicine

emoticon


Hi Yilun,
            I first met him was around 2.25 years after starting. I did the retreat with the Sri Lankans. I had been told he knew Satipathana behond most. I explained what was happening using whatever means: energy, episodes, pain, pleasure, disomfort etc. I used classical music and movements for one discription. Satipathana to discribe the practice and was looking foreward to finally getting some advice. He told me to stick to what i was doing. There are alot more details, but thats the main part. So i haven't done what he suggested to you.

His instruction was spot on, at 2 years my practice was difficult, because it was quite extreme energetics, and lots of Sankaras, nightime events of the winds blowing, but is was consistently, working. The daily sitting followed by what i did to faciltate it coming out when the winds started blowing was working. From my perspective now,to change it would have been silly.

If your wonder how i can recommend him.
Over some years i watched him answer thousands of questions, from the Sri Lankan lay people, western lay people, Monks. People would come in from the monastery to hear him answer questions. He was a cut above the normal, he is kind, and someone that would be more likely able to help.


During a conversation he made suggestions regarding medical capabilities that were out of the range of normal, by western standards. I queried him on it, and he was clear he understood what he was saying, knew it was behond western standards and that in specific areas there were cases like this-behond western. It seemed to involve bodywork, of some kind. Thats it.

We use to talk physics, amongst other things. He's well educated by western standards. So i would think his claims could have merit.

Below is from the post, where i mention it.

Dharmajiva knows about Buddha Medicine. He talk to me about it once, i don't know its limit.


I removed the unfinished discription of the practice i did to work with the heavy winds that would come at night. It was using the breathing to maintain a position of nuetral observation to phenomena and developing EQ to all the formations (sankhara upekkha) but one of the benefits along the way was being able to keep working with it effectively as aposed to to getting overloaded. Thats because it helped to open up to it and let it pour out. I will fix it up, then post it.
Hope your well.
              Best Wishes.