Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 2/17/18 12:23 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising streamsurfer 2/17/18 12:39 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 2/17/18 3:39 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Noah D 2/18/18 1:04 AM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 2/18/18 3:26 AM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 2/18/18 1:55 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 2/18/18 4:32 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Daniel M. Ingram 2/19/18 5:47 AM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 2/19/18 1:25 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 1/20/22 4:47 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Adi Vader 1/21/22 6:01 AM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dream Walker 1/21/22 8:40 AM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Chris M 1/21/22 6:39 AM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 1/21/22 11:09 AM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising George S 1/21/22 4:22 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/21/22 2:33 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/21/22 3:09 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Dom Stone 1/21/22 3:29 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/21/22 4:12 PM
RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö 1/21/22 4:15 PM
Dom Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 2/17/18 12:23 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/17/18 12:13 PM

Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 118 Join Date: 3/21/17 Recent Posts
I have been hesitant to write this due to wondering about reaching third path previously and it not being the case, and do not want to make any claims that lower the quality of attainment diagnosis, so discussion is encouraged, if just to maintain the high standard of dharma currently on this site.

I feel like there's not much to say here, experience tends to show for itself, however my map hungry intellectual mind bears onward.

I don't remember any fruition. In fact I merely remember a direct realization of clinging to experience, or lack of. Things were allowed to happen as they are. Not sure how this felt especially profound. It just was, however there wasn't any wierd states except a simple no self. Still happening.

My centerpoint is gone by default. I didn't realise it until putting my mind on it, but there is little natural boundary defining inside and out, there is a sense of me, but it is exactly the same sense that one would attribute to experience itself. Out of curiosity and maybe habit, there is intellectual inquiry on this matter,  (path or no path) which when done seems to artificially invoke an inherently stressful sensation that COULD appear to encapsulate this idea, but doesn't. It just happens.

It's not that there is this weird transcendent vibe of no self, with myself or others, it's just that it doesn't need to happen. I'm having conversations with people, but there is just the experience of conversion, no need to create more information than needed, though it does happen sometimes out of habit, and the stress is seen almost immediately.

Last night I had a trip to the beach  with my girlfriend, we had some weed (naughty, just bought some CBD oil for her though), and as the customary dark night experience happened, there was an initial struggle, but somehow, for once it didn't matter. A transcendent level of equinamity instead of what would be just"bearing" strong chaotic vibrations. Shortly after, during driving, I hit 4th jhana with formless aspect spontaneously Arising (weird and very unnerving when driving due to lack of control!). Letting go of certain aspects of experience have just become more natural. There's an intuition that all my constructs of reality are just that, constructs. everything is a lot less personal, impersonal except for the personal aspect that it is being experienced.

It feels like a review phase in the sense that there is some sense of completeness to ou. While I'm not sure what,. There is a sense of more work to be done, not including the fetters.

Descriptions of luminosity continue to elude me, however there is little more to the current experiences of the senses other than that they are known, with an observer ghosting in when logic calls for it. This observer is both me and not me. The sense is intangible, and effort to grasp.

There are still emotional feelings, and also anxiety when trying to conceptualise phenomenologically, along with clothes of"self" that don't fit properly, but it feels like a Dependant Origination to nowhere.

Finally, this morning, I woke up feeling worse for wear from last night's late night weed antics, guilt was briefly present, but not owned, but there was a much greater ability to get on with the day, and not be so self absorbed as I would be normally.

I've read through all the third path threads countless times, but yea, they don't quite answer my own experience. What do people think? It followed a period of meditational hopelessness, where I felt no amount of practice or bearing with this was going to get anywhere.

I was unsure whether to put this in claim to attainments or not. Sorry if it's in the wrong pleas, thanks!
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streamsurfer, modified 4 Years ago at 2/17/18 12:39 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/17/18 12:39 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 98 Join Date: 1/19/16 Recent Posts
I will just pick up the clues now with no garantue emoticon
Centerpoint nearly gone - sounds like 3rd.
Spontanious jhanas with formless quality - also more likely after 3rd, I think.
sense of completeness - I can relate to this for 3rd as well. Feeling of coming back to "normal", more settled, ground.

What can you find when looking for a "dualistic split"?
Dom Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 2/17/18 3:39 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/17/18 1:36 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 118 Join Date: 3/21/17 Recent Posts
Thank you for replying. I tend to be cautious with pointers whilst high as they are a poor reflection on my mind's typical properties, however, peak level of insight and how insight material is approached make it useful at times in negotiating future territory. The act of taking my body of homeostasis, and being selective to reality is definitely not helpful though lol. Being selective didn't quite happen this time. 

I'm also hesitent to take my claims seriously due to the amount I've read on the matter, however, there does seem to be a deepening to the moment. I'm assuming it can take the mind a while to settle into this. In fact it's quite a wild feeling at times when it sinks into new conceptual parts of mind. Wierd and slightly rapturous off the cushion experience. I've experienced this before, but fleeting, this is more of a direct baseline equivalent.

In answer to your question, I find the mind seeking (which is still vaguely seen as self in the fact I happen to be experiencing it, but it is arising of its own nature). In response there are sensations that imply a dualistic split the same as before, but they are seen as sensations arising where they are, then disappearing naturally by themselves. Normally there are more fabrications that continue by themselves including discursive thoughts.

I'm in some joyous awe right now, quite confused, it just makes no sense, but I'm aware that's the point, and maybe that is one reason why it can be so hard to accept.

What I don't understand is why I didn't notice any blip.

There are thoughts like "now what", which normally happens in review for me, which I believe are the result of hyped up delusions on what path might be. But I clearly see how any idea on how things could or should be are delusion, and this confusion, lack of tangible self is ''love" and it could probably be the most permanent thing that has suffused my experience, this time I don't want to run. (Minus the 31 years momentum and karma that has accumulated thus far.

EDIT: definitely the feeling of coming back to normal. Like it doesn't matter where I am, practice is simply a karmic desire to calm down the delusions a bit. Like an inevitable "enough is enough" on the mind front. And there is no need to be scared of things like"not doing the right things in life" etc

EDIT 2: Been cycling today. Whilst on my bicycle ironically ;) it smells of doubt and uncertainty, a cloud of many thoughts dependent on one another undermining any attempt to concretise what is happening. It has probably arisen due to this too.


This may get put in the practice log after a bit as it's the most I've wrote on my practice the last 2 weeks. 
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Noah D, modified 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 1:04 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 1:04 AM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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The path models can scale to measure varying scopes of development.  One person's 3rd path will be another ones first.  The center point is an onion with many layers.  The subject can seem to drop out yet there are many more unseen filters.  There are myriad nondualities which need to be stabilized if one wants to meet the strictest criteria for insight attainments.  Then nonduality alone is not enough.  Even in that realization there is an experience of space.  At some point space collapses & all points know all other points equally, from a unified fulcrum of information.  

This doesn't begin to discuss cleaning up emotions & conduct.  To me, all of this begs the question - what's 3rd path? 
Dom Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 3:26 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 3:25 AM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Interesting. Well path models are increasingly being seen as a crutch, a rather pervasive duality that itself needs to be shed, though I'm guessing that eventually as this all becomes integrated properly, the sensation of something being 'shed' refers to yet more duality. Once my mind gets sick of this perpetual game of whackamole, there is obviously stress in this, it will simply begin to stop caring whether emptiness is seen or not which I'm assuming is the road to 4th.

I read a thread made years ago, and it mentions how some people haven't had a cessation and how it was more of a 'aha that's how it is, and I can relate to this. It was a matter I have been approaching off and on for a while now, it just so happened that something clicked that time.

The biggest part for me is the concentration boost and mindfulness being much easier to maintain. It is like the resolution that has been turned up through practice now stays with me. My stories still exist but they have little hold over me unless I am in a stimulating position, but I now have the opportunity to see it as a welcome blockage to be overcome (though in reality, there is still a considerable amount of resistance).

Good question. "What is 3rd path" feels like a koan to me. I could provide you my interpretation on what I believe it is, and it will be recognised as based upon MTCB with the intentional exclusion of the fetters for simplification, though I get the feeling this means nothing and your question means more as a koan!

Right now I am just grateful I have such a wonderful opportunity to lessen my suffering in such a way and hope to be more incremental in helping others lessen theirs when or how I am able.
Dom Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 1:55 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 1:49 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Wow Pawel that is very lucid thank you and drew my awareness to possibilities unthought of. The immediacy of Jhana of cool and totally comprehendible. My mind is quite blown right now and it all needs time to sink in! ItsI like there's so many possibilities and up until now, I've spent my life putting them into boxes so they can be conceptualised and called upon, and it is like God had just come along and rooted up all the boxes and the contents are everywhere, right where I can see them. I don't need to find words for all this thank goodness because if I did, I would be generating so much suffering! Your first paragraph really resonates. It renders the fetters impersonal. I guess that's why there's no longer a 'need' to get pleasure this way. And the lack of piti is almost strange, but cool. My head is hollow now! Hehe.

Experimenting with bliss on different parts of my body.. it's interesting how the bliss is clearly not in the body, but just a feature of awareness that happens to manifest as the body at the time.
Dom Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 4:32 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/18/18 4:32 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Oh right! Oops. I get it intellectually, and have been fascinated by your descriptions in the past, despite it being very far from the knowledge I have been used to. I can see how, being brought up with western science, I could still widely misunderstand these factors and guess it pays to never take any belief for granted in case I am limited by them.

It will be nice when this mind has integrated all the recent insight material to save any wasted energy and to continue the good path. Will practice just absorptions tomorrow. Thank you very much for your advice =)
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 4 Years ago at 2/19/18 5:47 AM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/19/18 5:47 AM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Models vary in how helpful they are for various people and various circumstances. They often work better in the traditional practice contexts for which they were designed and in which they were tested. The farther one gets from those, the more it can be tricky to see how they apply.

Still, there are various axes of development that can be developed.

Imagine an axis that represents the degree to which all sensations naturally self-liberate, meaning that the recognition of their true nature co-arises automatically as part of their immediate occurrence, meaning that they are naturally known to be known where they are, by themselves, to arise perfectly causally without any agent, doer, controller, or separate knower of them or in them.

We can try to place marks along this axis and label them as paths, and there is some utility in doing this in the right context and regarding the right practitioner, but, for those that are coming up outside of an intensive training situation or by some alternate path, some of the standard marks might not be as useful.

Using a path model when there isn't even recognition of such things as Fruition and the like might not be as useful.

Stll, the general direction of development and that it can be developed all the way to 100% perfection of the direct knowledge of all sensations being the answer to the question of vipassana are worth considering as a guide to recognizing what might need additional clarity and to motivate one to realize that it is possible and doable in this lifetime.

In all map endeavors, watch for the standard mimics, Equanimity ñana for high paths, the A&P for Equanimity or Stream Entry, Formless Realms for Fruitions, etc., as these are so commonly misdiagnosed that this misdiagnosis should be considered normal.

Helpful?

Daniel
Dom Stone, modified 4 Years ago at 2/19/18 1:25 PM
Created 4 Years ago at 2/19/18 1:25 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Yes actually, thank you. I guess with goal oriented practice, such models provide motivation at the start, followed by reassurance during the middle paths when there is still a lot of resistance to emptiness. It can be easy to overlook the 3 characteristics of something that is viewed as a source of comfort, especially when it defines a sense of progress. This means they eventually need to be shed similar to how the significance of the ñanas need to be shed in order to separate from the mental sensations that arise with them. 


This doesn't explain how such a dramatic change in the relationship with 'self' can be radically altered in a moment, though I assume a lot of time is spent priming the mind until a change of lineage moment can occur. In reflection, I can identify with all 3 characteristics during this 'more profound' moment that has closely resembled previous experiences, but with total acceptance of them rather than clinging on to fabrications outside the scope of my awareness. At this point of total impermanence, mind can come to the unmistakable conclusion that there is no ground here to root itself in anymore, so such distortions can be deleted.

I wonder if it's possible to have a change of lineage moment not followed by a cessation moment.
Dom Stone, modified 8 Months ago at 1/20/22 4:47 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/20/22 4:47 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 118 Join Date: 3/21/17 Recent Posts
Blaaa blaaaaa...
I need to know if I've woken up... Because it really matters to me that much I cannot stop until I've figured it out... 


​​​​​​​I can honestly say, categorically that there was no Third Path moment. And even with the time it takes to integrate this knowledge, I probably wouldn't be asking. 
Adi Vader, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 6:01 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 6:01 AM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 162 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Please consider the following:

1. Use a well defined explanation of the 10 fetters and what they are and how they cause  suffering - also a well defined explanation of suffering could also help
2. Use a practice that is designed to create recognition and familiarity with the fetters

Here are some resources:
1. Brian Taylor's ten fetters explained: https://issuu.com/universaloctopus/docs/tenfetters.issuu_16
2. My explanation of dukkha and Ten fetters: https://www.reddit.com/r/Arhatship/comments/rs5ytz/the_awakening_project_chapter_1_a_theoretical/
3. Paccavekhana a formal practice: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/prtgo1/comment/he3a87c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

​​​​​​​Hope this helps 
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Chris M, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 6:39 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 6:37 AM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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I need to know if I've woken up... Because it really matters to me that much I cannot stop until I've figured it out... 

There is a phase most people go through, usually just before "it" happens, in which you can be so close as to think you might be. But you aren't... yet. Then lightning strikes. It's pretty obvious when it happens. Awakening is not something you can easily miss because it changes your orientation to everything you experience. 
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Dream Walker, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 8:40 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 8:40 AM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Dom Stone
Blaaa blaaaaa...
I need to know if I've woken up... Because it really matters to me that much I cannot stop until I've figured it out... 
​​​​​​​I can honestly say, categorically that there was no Third Path moment. And even with the time it takes to integrate this knowledge, I probably wouldn't be asking. 


Have you read this---> Framework of awakening -->
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5800908
It's chock full of good tidbits. (At least I think so)
What pieces/parts do you got? What are you focusing on still?
~D
Dom Stone, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 11:09 AM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 11:08 AM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Exactly! Sorry I should have made it more clear that this was satire relating to previous desires to 'wake up'.

Funnily enough, when this moment happened about 2-3 weeks ago, I thought it was my personality disorder that I was so close to... Pointing around but not quite... Ended up going celibate and lessening the reactivity, and it wasn't till a few days later when it was all intergrated when I realised the shift was permanent, not just a refined state of consciousness. Now these triggers have lost their weight on this level, and my sense of self is separate to the states of consciousness themselves. There was a fair bit of kundalini which felt like the aligning of my energy on different levels, felt 10 years younger, and now my awareness no longer constricts around the content of consciousness itself, but to this entity that is independant of these states. It's opened up a much more psychic world and I've realised that a lot of the things that have happened and synchronicities is higher self teaching lower self, realising more intimately how the universe is part of mind, and reading energy has been intutitive and natural. Also the foods I eat are making much more visible difference to these states. It's probably the biggest relief of energy I've had, and there is this bodhisattva style desire to operate for the benefit and clarity of all sentient beings.

Finally I can talk to girls without my insecurities getting in the way, but now I'm turning down nearly all tempting situations as it rarely feels in alignment with my spirit and it's just not worth it anymore. The irony ;)
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 2:33 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 2:33 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
You might think it's blaaaa blaaaa in retrospect, but I think it's a great thread with lots of useful information. The issue of obvious difficulties in diagnosing is but one of several interesting aspects in the thread. 

Too bad that some of the posts have been deleted, though. It seems like they would have been helpful to read.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 3:09 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 3:09 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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For instance, funny that you describe how you now notice how different foods affect you spiritually. I hope this means I'm on the right track (definitely not third path yet in my case, though, just somewhere on my way to it). I have had extreme food sensitivities for a number of years and tried to cure them, and very recently I have realized that they are actually not a problem at all. It's just that I notice how much different eating habits affect the energy body, and this knowing makes the body say hell no and hell yeah. It's not an illness. I'm healthier than I have ever been. It's only the three poisons that make it a problem. So actually, the "illness" provides great pointers. Being able to eat "normal" food isn't worth the extra ignorance that it would require. And recently, I have started noticing more nuances of how food affects me, on much subtler levels than "symptoms". It very clearly affects the vibrations (kinesthetic/nada sound/light) and the scope of focus and the expansion-contraction axis and te extent to which I can access intuition as well as altered states.

As for the aspect of higher self leaving clues for lower self, I remember a big aha-moment with regard to that pretty soon after stream entry. It was probably at a much grosser level than what you are describing, though. At first I felt cheated, because before I realized that "I" was the one who had placed all the little sign posts there for me to find, I really felt like there was some greater power (separate from me) that was communicating with me. I thought of it as the process itself rather than as an entity, but there was more of an entity-relating anyway, subconsciously. And I valued the special relationship so much! It was devotional, I guess. So discovering that the amazing pointers, which had indeed helped me to stream entry, were actually just the cause and effect that my delusion would unavoidably produce... it felt like discovering that what I thought was great intimacy with the love of my life was just masturbating under delusion (I refer to this experience as my Dirk Gently experience).  But then I came to appreciate how cool it is that our very delusions are exactly what we need in order to wake up, and how amazing the timing of it all is, especially since there isn't anyone behind it, operating from a God perspective. It just works anyway! I mean, if that isn't miraculuos enough, I don't know what is. 
Dom Stone, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 3:29 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 3:29 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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So much to say, but on a phone!

Yeh you'll find as you're less identified with the physical sensations your mind will be more accepting of the finer vibrations, and that may include being able to see right out your existing reality set and find more finer patterns to follow. (Remember that from birth our minds create a universe by seeing patterns and guessing what is going on, when it comes to subtle states of concentration, it can (but not necessarily) lead to an entirely different framework. I think that makes sense but it's pretty conceptual and my insight might be incomplete or not finished integrating, so my answer there may be somewhat murky.

I have noticed that once the ignorance is lifted, then regardless of what mode of concentration you are in, aside from the occasional karmic distortion, it remains gone. But even the odd disturbance is mindless at best, without the tightening of awareness around the object. Despite still having cravings for immaterial stated, they are seen in perspective in that the answer isn't in these states (though I do feel the answer lies in these states, which is probably good insight material) 

Yeh I also felt like the same about universe giving back but being separate. 

​​​​​​​It still has that separateness attached, however there are little bits of information from experience that is proof enough to convince my conceptual mind that this is the case, which is very useful! 
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 4:12 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 4:11 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Dom Stone
So much to say, but on a phone!

If that was an invitation to talk, I’m all for it. Just not in this precise moment, as I have just finished what turned out to be almost a 12-hour workday (and I’m on disability leave halftime, so that’s three days of work in one day).


Yeh you'll find as you're less identified with the physical sensations your mind will be more accepting of the finer vibrations, and that may include being able to see right out your existing reality set and find more finer patterns to follow. (Remember that from birth our minds create a universe by seeing patterns and guessing what is going on, when it comes to subtle states of concentration, it can (but not necessarily) lead to an entirely different framework.

You just described one of my greatest cravings, lol. I want that entirely different framework so badly! Not time to let go of that raft yet, though. I still need it for remedy with regard to other cravings (and right now that seems to work surprisingly well all of a sudden; it might be a different story tomorrow, though).


I think that makes sense but it's pretty conceptual and my insight might be incomplete or not finished integrating, so my answer there may be somewhat murky.

It makes perfect sense to me. And that might be a sign that further nuances are yet to be revealed. It matches my view too well to be the whole truth.


I have noticed that once the ignorance is lifted, then regardless of what mode of concentration you are in, aside from the occasional karmic distortion, it remains gone. But even the odd disturbance is mindless at best, without the tightening of awareness around the object.

I feel like that with some aspects of ignorance but definitely not all of them.


Despite still having cravings for immaterial stated, they are seen in perspective in that the answer isn't in these states (though I do feel the answer lies in these states, which is probably good insight material) 

This I can relate to.


Yeh I also felt like the same about universe giving back but being separate. 

Noticing that The Divine Grace was causual effects of how the attention system works felt like a bummer at the time, haha. That was the main reason that my first review phase felt exactly like what you described earlier in the thread, like ”now what?”.


​​​​​​​It still has that separateness attached, however there are little bits of information from experience that is proof enough to convince my conceptual mind that this is the case, which is very useful! 

I do relate to this as well, but probably at a grosser level from what you are describing.

This was interesting!

Now I need to wind down and get some sleep.
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Linda ”Polly Ester” Ö, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 4:15 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 4:15 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

Posts: 6727 Join Date: 12/8/18 Recent Posts
Heh, I just realized that I just might be pretty much in the same place as you were when you started this thread. Or close to getting there, at least. 
George S, modified 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 4:22 PM
Created 8 Months ago at 1/21/22 4:22 PM

RE: Possibility of hitting third but not realising

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Awakening is the ultimate irony emoticon​​​​​​​

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