Is hard jhanas necessary to obtain 3th path?

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Julie V, modified 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 8:10 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 8:10 PM

Is hard jhanas necessary to obtain 3th path?

Posts: 82 Join Date: 8/17/10 Recent Posts
I'm a newbies here on this site, but Daniel's book and blog have been very helpful to my practice since I started a couple years ago. It's also great to read so many interesting posts here. Thank you very much, Daniel and everyone for all of these knowledges and comments! I really appreciate them.

Anyway, to get to the point, without any proof here, I suspect that I have obtained the second path 3-4 months ago. Now I'm onto the third, and I just need some advices about the 3th path. I have read on Kenneth's website that you would need to be able to access all different stratas of mind before reaching the 1st pure land jhana, which is the indication of the third path. These different stratas of mind seem to include all of the 8 jhanas (if I'm not mistaken). Because of this, I'm wondering then whether being able to master all of the 8th samatha jhanas is necessary for obtaining the 3rd path.

Just a little bit about my practice: I have been practicing in Mahasi Sayadaw tradition (based on IMS curriculum). I haven't been contratrating much on samatha practice. The only couple of times that I have tried to concentrate (using metta as my object), I always ended up hating everyone around me. That happened about 1 month of using metta as my main practice. When I decided to switch back to insight practice, my perspectives about people around me seemed to soften again. Because of all of these experiences, I think that I would post here to see what others think about hard jhanas before attempting to concentrate again. Any comments are much appreciated.

With Metta :-)
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 8/18/10 5:11 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/18/10 5:11 PM

RE: Is hard jhanas necessary to obtain 3th path? (Answer)

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Great questions.

It is worth knowing that definitions and markers for Third Path vary, and we are not all quite on the same page in these regards, as well as having different emphases as to what is important for Third Path. Thus, you may have to get used to a little friendly controversy regarding what is important and essential.

I tend to emphases the following things for Third Path:

1) Have completed at least 3 full, new insight/path cycles. This is not necessarily a guarantee of third path, as counting insight cycles is problematic and sometimes inaccurate, as one can review old territory after having crossed the A&P of the next path, get a Fruition (from the path you have already attained), think that Fruition was of the new path, and believe you have finished the next path, when really it was just review from the previous one. This is more common than most think. Now it is true that people who come up in traditions that don't emphasize path cycles or maps can be anagamis but just don't know what to count, and so for them this criteria is not as useful.

2) Have a substantially increased appreciation of this being ultimate reality, the truth of the dharma being here and now, of things being empty/luminous/causal in real-time when walking around. This understanding can deepen as third path deepens, but one should have a substantial appreciation of it in ways that people in second path simply don't. Kenneth doesn't emphasize this as much as I do. More panoramic and spacious perspectives should be more readily available to the mind in times of difficulties and in general.

3) There are the jhanic criteria, of which I prefer Nirodha Samapatti as more hard evidence than the Pure Land Jhanas. Not all anagamis will be able to get Nirodha Samapatti, so this is not as good a criteria, but if you can get it, you are very likely third path.

How important is it to have hard jhana skills in order to get Third Path? Well, this is a complex topic. The texts and commentaries do make some mention of the relationship between anagamihood and concentration mastery, but there are also "dry insight workers" who don't have much in the way of jhanic skills.

I personally had been into the formless realms solidly right after stream entry when playing around, but I was on retreat and my practice was very strong on that retreat and particularly right after getting stream entry. However, when I went to back to working and daily life, my concentration skills were moderately diminished, such that the 4th jhana in some moderate strength was pretty easy to get, but formless realms and more solid concentration attainments were much more elusive and spotty. However, once I got Third Path, which I did in daily life on a few hours a day of practice having crossed the A&P of that path on a short retreat, I suddenly had much easier access to the formless realms in daily life and was soon able to get Nirodha Samapatti also in daily life. Thus, I didn't have really hard jhana before getting Third Path.

In short, while there is something about the width and openness of the formless realms, particularly the first two, that does something good to the brain and helps with Third Path, it is certainly not necessary to have them mastered before going for Third Path, though, if kept in perspective, couldn't hurt and might help, obviously.

Is that helpful?

Daniel
Pavel _, modified 13 Years ago at 8/19/10 6:36 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/19/10 6:36 AM

RE: Is hard jhanas necessary to obtain 3th path? (Answer)

Posts: 88 Join Date: 1/20/10 Recent Posts
I can't really offer anything as insightful as what Daniel wrote but I can vouch for the efficacy of the dry insight path, in that I got third path without being able to access the formless realms and never even came across nirodha samapatti. The progress that I have made and still am making does not appear to be in any way impeded by my lack of concentration ability. The only thing that I genuinely wonder about is whether the very difficult and unpleasant Dark Nights I have been through would have been any easier to travel through if I have had spent some time mastering concentration practice.

All the best.
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Julie V, modified 13 Years ago at 8/19/10 4:35 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/19/10 4:35 PM

RE: Is hard jhanas necessary to obtain 3th path?

Posts: 82 Join Date: 8/17/10 Recent Posts
Thank you very much for the responses! From both of you, I definitely got the answers I was looking for.

I have been a dry insight worker, and it is great to hear that it's possible to attain the third path with sole dry insight path. Thanks also for the different markers for the third path. I actually really like your point about the more and more understanding that here and now is an ultimate reality. I definitely feel like I got a lot more understanding from the second path than the first one. I'm now curious about how much more I can feel that way as the insight deepens; this definitely motivates me to practice well again and yeah ... to get there as soon as possible.

Also, your comment about the amount of time you practiced in daily life to get the third path is very helpful. Having practiced mostly in daily life (I only had a chance to go onto my first weeklong retreat about a month ago), it's good to know that it again is possible to do it in daily life.

With all of these being said though, I'm quite interested in the jhanas practice at the moment, and I think I will give it a try. As you said, Daniel, it probably does not hurt!

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