Author: Tracy.
Forum: For Stream-Enterers: A Different Way of Doing 2nd Path

The following is an IM conversation between myself and theprisonergreco where I asked him a question about this page and suggested that he clarify something in it, and he said he was too tired to bother fixing it so I should comment on the page. So I thought it would be funny to paste our conversation about it in my comment instead of bothering to write a real comment.

me: "you don't have to wait until going for 3rd path to do this if it makes sense to you to do this here and now."
me: don't you mean 2nd?
theprisonergreco: no going for 3rd path is going for anagami
me: but i thought the article was about going for 2nd
theprisonergreco: yes. hence, you dont have to wait until [you already have 2nd and are] going for 3rd ..
theprisonergreco: make sense now?
me: are you saying that your advice in this article is similar to advice normally given to people going for #3?
theprisonergreco: yes
me: that's not clear [to me]
theprisonergreco: edit it or comment on it
theprisonergreco: wait, dont edit it
me: yeah i'm not gonna edit it
why don't you just change it to "This kind of advice is normally given to people going for Third Path, but ..."
theprisonergreco: but if you wanna be helpful to me and other people maybe comment on it. cos i recognise the clarity of your point just dont feel like finding a way to insert it gracefully
theprisonergreco: ok, definitely sleep now
theprisonergreco: bye
me: ok goodnight

To clarify, I originally thought that he meant (and mistyped) "you don't have to wait until going for 2nd path to do this if it makes sense to you to do this here and now" meaning "go ahead and try this kind of investigation out even if you're not working on 2nd Path like I was, because it might be helpful for anyone."

Yes, Tarin this is what Daniel means when he says that Stream entry is so important, that it marks the opening of the dharma-eye. 1st path is really the tricky part, and after that the practice literally changes in response to the new territory. It is much more common to get involved in more wide, expansive, and present-focused types of practices (like you are describing here), and either way the insight cycles will unfold. I wouldn't say this is so much a different practice as what Daniel describes, but rather is a natural progression.

That said, I think it's true that the emphasis on noting is different than the emphasis you are mentioning here (on a more wide-open perspective). After I got 3rd path (and I'd been doing noting up to that point almost exclusively) one of the teachers I was interviewing with (John Travis) suggested that at that point I could either continue noting and intentionally try and line up the 7 factors of enlightenment OR that I could expand attention to infinitely and just let things happen, and gently return attention to a wide and expanded state when I get caught up (a more wide-open practice as described) and that the factors would line up by themselves. He then said that both methods would work, but it was his opinion that the later formless method was more gentle on the practitioner. It was definitely useful advice, and it gave me permission to radically ease up on noting practice and to experiment with formless practice for some time, which already seemed quite natural given the big shift that 3rd path represented.

[cont]

So, basically I agree that the more formless method, after 1st path, is something worth experimenting with--and more importantly that things will still unfold. I found it useful for sometime and my daily practice is still largely a formless method of inquiry. When on retreat though, I sometimes experiment with a looser kind of noting and with doing other technique-oriented practices. A teacher I recently sat with made the suggestion that being able to do both gives a much greater flexibility of mind--and I think he was on to something there.

Also, I would just suggest that this isn't really a new discovery and that if you push Daniel on this point he would likely agree with you (as he did when I pushed him on this). I was surprised to learn that he isn't nearly as attached to the noting method as you might think. I was also surprised to discover that as enlightenment progresses it is naturally and normal for it to become more formless, open, etc. That just seems to be how the thing unfolds. And going with that seems to be really helpful. I bet by 3rd path you will be a formless nut. ;-D

in no way do i think this is a new discovery (the existence of other traditions that encourage similar methods from the get-go indicates otherwise), nor do i think daniel would disagree. what i am writing to contrast is what daniel *recommends*, and it is largely for the mastering/mahasi crowd that i am writing, as, between dan's direct, in-person recommendations and both his book and mahasi's books, one would almost certainly come away with the impression that the rise through the cycles-harmonise-collapse method is surely the way to attain 2nd path.

while i can appreciate why dan does this/why this is the case, and i'm not asking him to write or say differently, it is misleading nonetheless. therefore, i want to use my own voice to emphasise that other ways of practice in 2nd path territory (such as described above) are not incongruous with the theravadan way, and to emphasise this point blank.. and not just when pushed to say so.

could you elaborate more, perhaps in a separate thread (or even a page if you have enough to write about it), on what lining up the 7 factors of enlightenment is like?

I was thinking back on what I did to get second path, which I did in daily life, and it was pretty much just vibrations whenever and wherever and however they occurred, without any particular attention to wide vs narrow, but trying to notice everything that arose and see the Three Characteristics of it, which at points was a bit tight, as I recall, so this may be a nice variation in emphasis, though I wonder if there may be some issues of readiness and also of individual proclivities, as some people do well with one emphasis and others may benefit from another approach, as you point out here. I didn't really note much except in dissolution while working on second path, as noting was always my fallback technique past stream entry only when for some reason I was having a hard time just taking things on straight up. However, noting still has its points, and I even used the technique some at points when working on building up strong concentration for the push to arahatship on my last retreat, though once I got very strong panoramic concentration I just payed attention and let things happen.