Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 5:10 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 5:10 AM

Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

Being that I have not made it to 3rd Path, I'm very curious about the idea of seeing emptiness in real-time. Is there a good way to describe what this is like in experiential terms?

The reason that I ask is because I have chanced in to some frames/states of mind that seem to reflect this idea. It's not my predominant experience throughout the day, but it pops up at least once a day and lasts about a half hour.

For example, last night there was a shift in perspective while I was sweeping the floor. The phenomena that is generically labeled as "my self" suddenly took on the qualities of that which I refer to as "not my self" and vice versa. As I swept the floor, I had an intuitive paradoxical understanding that the universe was sweeping the universe. The dirt, the broom, the sweeping motion, pleasant and unpleasant thoughts and feelings, and the space in between… all were seen very clearly to be of the same nature, arising and passing, aware of themselves, and there was no problem. This was the most complete experience of this nature that I've ever had, and it was totally effortless and spontaneous.

Now, I know that it could possibly be the result of cycling in to High Equanimity (which it likely was). When I'm in High Equanimity, and formations become the predominant experience/perspective, it carries a similar unitive feeling but not quite as complete.

I am in no way suggesting that I'm an anagami. What I'm wondering is whether or not this type of experience resonates with what it's like to see emptiness in real-time. Is it similar? Different? Any and all thoughts are welcome.
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:07 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:07 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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That sort of sounds like it, but it might have been some kind of unitive experience, rather than emptiness. Difficult to say, of course. For me, emptiness in real time was like a sense of 'something' within my field of awareness that was not a sensation, perception, thought, feeling, idea - none of these - so that it was impossible to understand how I could be aware of it, and yet I was. It was like a part of the outside world was somehow folded inside into my awareness. Meditation felt like sitting face-to-face with God - it was that intense! I certainly understood what the saints had been getting at with their talk of angels, divine presence, etc.

The emptiness appeared to occupy part of the field of awareness, or to be somehow set against it. It was there, but there was also still very much a sense of me 'over here' in opposition to it. Before it first appeared I would never have guessed it was possible to have an awareness of something like that. I still remember how utterly gobsmacked I was at the time.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:22 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:22 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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That's very interesting. Thanks for chiming in.

So, if I'm getting this right, emptiness became apparent as emptiness itself, as a distinguishable quality?

What I'm experiencing may be a bit different, in that it's obvious that there is a "source" from which phenomena arises and passes, and that this whatever-you-call-it is indistinguishable from "knowing". Maybe it's the same thing. Whatever is going on, it is only happening for a short period of time, and the majority of sensory experiences are still from the perspective of duality.

The reason I'm reluctant to say that it's solely a unitive experience is that the three characteristics are clear-as-a-bell during these states. It's not "I am the broom". It's more like, "the broom and this self are of the same nature." This language reeks of spirituality, and I apologize for that. It's the only lexicon I know to use for this stuff.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:36 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:36 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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I think there are not only many different experiences in this process but also infinite ways to express them as well as countless ways to place them into one or another model, etc. That being said, it sounds right to me. How did you find the experience as it was happening? Joyful, scary, peaceful? I wouldn't worry about trying to put it in a box 'High Equanimity' or otherwise, just reflect on the experience in and of itself. It definitely has the right 'flavor'. And Jesus Man! :-) don't apologize about sounding spiritual - what do you think that stuff is all about anyway? It is a perfectly useful language and expresses some aspects much better then talking about cycles or path-moments.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:54 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:54 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Hi Chuck,

As far as the feeling-tone of these experiences, I find that they are peaceful but not boring, joyful but not giddy, restful but not lacking energy, accepting but not overtaken. From this perspective, a lot of the non-dual philosophy I've read makes a lot of sense. I usually have to sort of imagine the concepts rather than experience them directly.

I know I shouldn't apologize for using spiritual language, as it does have it's practical uses. I just hate that some of the words I use carry so much baggage. I guess I should just trust that you all know what I mean, and that I'm not just talking out of my spiritual ass.

So then, is the shift in to Third Path territory much like flipping the switch so this perspective predominates one's experience? If so, I am definitely not there yet.

Jackson
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 7:03 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 7:03 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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It's very easy to mistake a host of experiences for "emptiness", since most of us put little effort to thoroughly understand the meaning of emptiness at a conceptual level by asking "empty of what?" methodically, step by step. Your description resembles some aspects of relative cessation uncovered in samadhi. "Universe sweeping the universe" is a poetic description, and everything being "of the same nature" can mean almost anything you can make that nature to be. So what exactly was that same nature? And, what was the "knowing" from which "whatever-you-call-it" was indistinguishable. You see, using an expression like "whatever-you-call-it" opens doors for exactly that - everything becoming indistinguishable. And that's NOT emptiness/clarity.

"Emptiness" refers to the ULTIMATE nature of self and all phenomena. It is first experienced as impermanence at gross and more subtle levels. At a very subtle level, it's the moment-to-moment nature of this awareness and of every experiential phenomenon. Seeing self as "selfing" in real time is one way of expressing that. Namely, being aware of oneself and the world without reifying the "over here" and "over there" sensation - that may or may not appear, it doesn't matter - is when we get close to realtime emptiness. It's crucially different from the unity felt in absorption. But the true meaning of emptiness is yet to be discovered when emptiness and appearance - of which emptiness is the ultimate nature - become indivisible. That is the meaning of great or true emptiness, specialty of Prajnaparamita sutras.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 7:32 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 7:32 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Thanks for the great response Hokai. This is exactly what I need.

To clarify my statement that included the "whatever-you-call-it"... what I mean to say is that it seemed quite obvious during this period that all experiential phenomena (including what are normally considered to be interior and exterior sensations) were a process, and that the processes were understood to be arising and passing to and from a "source", for which the only other word I can think of is "knowing". Impermanence was the characteristic showing most strongly, as nothing appeared to be the same from moment to moment. The unitive aspect of the thing had little to do with One-ness in the sense of thing-ness, and everything to do with the coming together of impermanence to manifest sensate reality. Even the false split of subject and object appeared to be brand new at every moment, which was weird. When I say that the universe was sweeping the universe, I mean that there was only process and knowing the process. Maybe that's related to what you call "selfing" (great term, by the way).

Now, I could very well be describing what you called aspects of relative cessation uncovered in samadhi. If so, great! I'll work with that. I just wanted to see if there were any parallels between what I have been experiencing and the process of seeing emptiness in real-time.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 7:46 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 7:46 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Jackson,

based on your description, this sounds like your awareness momentarily shifted to the "wave" (or impermanence) nature of "reality", hence the "oneness". Shinzen calls this the 4th dimension of "spirituality" (check out this audio - http://bit.ly/XDyu ). in fact, according to Shinzen, an enlightened being is someone who could shift between the particulate and wave nature of self, at will. very groovy. sounds like you're "almost" (always, already) there emoticon

btw, whenever Shinzen speaks of "impermanence", most of the time he means the *micro scale* nature of impermanence, which are waves/vibrations. not sure if this notion of impermanence is specific to Shingon (maybe Hokai could expound on this some more), but this metaphor works great for me emoticon

~C
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 8:00 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 8:00 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Hey C,

I've been listening to Young's talks on impermanence lately, and I dig the way he articulates the concept. My best guess is that I chance in to really getting a good sense of this in daily life every now and then, and the above experience is just one of those times. Being able to just drop in to it whenever, just by inclining towards it, would be incredible.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 8:11 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 8:11 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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“I just hate that some of the words I use carry so much baggage. I guess I should just trust that you all know what I mean”

Yes, well baggage is an issue for sure. And this process we are all involved in is a sticky one. We can't just hold up a glob of emptiness and say 'Here, this is what I am talking about!'. I wouldn't trust that we know what you mean. It is important to watch closely and try maybe to describe your experience from different angles. I think the natural tendency for anyone is to take someones description and try to fit it in to their own experience – so any discussion requires care from both sides.

“is the shift in to Third Path territory much like flipping the switch so this perspective predominates one's experience?”
From my own experience, third path felt something like 'separate self' collapsing like a house of cards.
There was a sense of falling through space but not ever hitting ground. And it was quite clear at the time that that sense of falling was directly attributable to not having any 'ego identity' to hold on to or to ground me. There was nothing that had to be done – much more like having the rug pulled out from under you. It was not at first a pleasant experience but over a few weeks I really came to love it – once I realized that I didn't need to hold onto some ego self in order to 'be'. I have no idea how this compares with others experiences though.

-Chuck
Hokai Sobol, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 1:30 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 1:30 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Not particularly, the micro-scale is important since it necessitates close, yogic attention, where one is intimately involved with what is being discovered, and not mere sensate perception as in macro-scale events where one can pretend to stand apart from it all. Shingon would aim at observing this wave/vibratory nature of everything as an evidence of reality's aliveness at various levels, i.e. the dynamic nature of everything's movement qua emancipatory activity aimed at melting our frozen dualistic perceptions. However, Sasaki Roshi's teaching on expansion and contraction in myriad forms at various levels can also serve as basis for this emphasis, and it is itself quite compatible with the micro/macro cosmic structure proposed in Shingon, Tendai and Zen.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 2:32 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 2:32 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Jackson, you've given us several good openings for discussion. One is the experience itself, another is the language we might use to talk about it, and a third is how to map it.

The experience is obviously significant, as evidenced by the fact that you chose to create a thread to discuss it. But we won't really understand it until you are able to place it within the context of other, similar experiences. When you say that the universe was sweeping the universe, I have to think that is a very good thing, a very deep thing. Looking back on this, you might conclude that it was the first time you actually saw things as they are... but it's too soon to tell.

As for language, the word emptiness has become almost meaningless through overuse. Everyone seems to mean something different by it. Personally, I've given up on it. :-) You're better off to just keep looking for new ways to talk around the experience.

Finally, there is mapping. Daniel's map says that an anagami can see emptiness in real time. I don't like to define Paths by what a person can see. (See my page on physio-energetic and psychological models of enlightenment.) I think if we're going to use language as concrete as Path, we should define it by some change in psychic anatomy. I say an anagami is someone who has completed a physio-energetic circuit from the level of the third eye chakra. This opens up a whole new way of being in the world, just as 1st and 2nd Paths opened up new ways of being. My feeling is that Daniel's definition of anagami lets too many sakadagamis slide through...because sakadagamis can see all sorts of amazing things, including luminosity in real time. Having said that, I think the line between sakadagami and anagami is the most difficult one to map.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 4:25 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 4:25 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Hi Kenneth,

I agree that these experiences I'm chancing upon are indeed the most complete moments of seeing things "as they are" that I've experienced. You're right, though. There's a lot of progress to be made yet, and I'm sure to see things as they are at some point.

Again, I know that I haven't attained Third Path. There are shifts in my perception happening that are very new for me, and have only been showing up in the last week. It's probably all 2nd Path stuff, but I am curious to see if any of it is a taste of what is to come. Whatever is going on, it's much different than anything I've ever worked with.

Regarding the chakra models, are there any good practical resources for learning about them? The energetic models make sense to me, so I want to explore them more.

Jackson
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Kenneth Folk, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 4:45 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 4:45 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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I haven't yet done much online research for kundalina/chakra models of enlightenment, but I'm hoping someone here will be able to point us in the right direction. One of the reasons I'm fascinated by this kind of modeling is that these energy/chakra phenomena have shown up so clearly in my own practice, without any indoctrination beyond some casual reading. Right now, as I type this, I'm able to see/feel these energy flows within and around my body. It's all very experientially real to me, even though my Cartesian, reductionist, scientist mind would like to dismiss it. And this phenomenon of completing the circuit from the third eye chakra and later from the crown chakra is just too pat to be unrelated to the Paths. I told you about Alex Grey, right? He's the artist who draws pictures of the energy circuits. He has a website, alexgrey.com.
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C4 Chaos, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:42 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 6:42 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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i'm also interested in the "chakras" but i haven't really done specific practices pertaining to it. my only experience, which is close to the chakra model, was a sensation of energy/waves rising up to the top of my head (as if pulling my hair), while doing lying down meditation.

here's a ton of information on it: http://www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/

also, Wilber takes the subtle energy theory to a whole new level. see "Toward A Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies"
http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/books/kosmos/excerptG/part1.cfm

would love to hear Kenneth's take, especially on Wilber's geeky theory on subtle energies.

~C

P.S. Alex Grey is one of my favorite artists. i have a copy of Sacred Mirrors on my coffee table. very powerful images. but i don't resonate with his use of psychedelics (see http://bit.ly/14Qm2 ) - a good topic for discussion for another day. to each his own i guess emoticon
Frater Geur, modified 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 10:17 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/18/09 10:17 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Agree with what Kenneth said re. ajna chakra and anagami. In my experience of this path, the point in the field of awareness where inside and outside collapsed in onto one another was situated at the third eye - very strongly.

However, it seems there are meditators who simply don't experience any kinds of sensations on these levels, yet that does not seem to mean their attainments are not genuine. Also, my ajna chakra started to activate whilst I was still a sakadagami - although it intensified far more at anagami. So too did my throat chakra. My heart chakra acivated only after third path, and only because (it seemed) I undertook a regular kundalini kriya to make it happen.

I strongly suspect I have attained fourth path recently (still coming to terms with this) in which case, the entry into fourth path was marked by very intense activity in the stomach chakra (manipura)!

Now - I've been most interested in Rudolf Steiner's model of the chakras, in which they activate in a sequence from the top and working downwards. (The exact opposite of the usual model.) Having adopted this model, it seems that's what I got!

In my opinion, then, this level of energy is involved in the process, but not everyone can perceive it (and it doesn't seem important that they do). Neither does the sequence or the timing bear any obvious relationship to the stages on the path - but there does seem to be some correspondence, nonetheless.

Back to Jackson's original question about third path. Whatever we call it, however we describe it, one thing I guarantee: you'll know it when it happens, and it'll knock your head off. (In the nicest possible way!)
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 4:05 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 4:05 AM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Duncan,

Well said. I've become a bit of a model-freak (a pretty good symptom of us 2nd Path'ers), so it's good to be put in my place regarding their use. Every other major shift or change was obvious when it occurred, so I should probably ease up on trying to predict what the next shift is like.

Sometimes it seems like Second Path is the Dark Night of the Theravada Four Path Model, in that some important changes have occurred that are noticeable and life altering, but it's obvious that it's not at all complete. My plan was to attain Second Path and then try to enjoy it for a while, which I've been doing for the most part. But the sense that things need to continue persists, and the realization that "cycling" isn't the point of the practice is becoming ever more clear. Because of this, my practice is extending beyond formal practice in attempt to discover what it's really all about. Wish me luck.

Also, congrats on your progress! I'd like to hear more about it.
Trent S H, modified 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:20 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:20 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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I distinguished 3rd path by the suffering. For this stage, noticing the relative lack of suffering would be really really hard to mess up or misinterpret. I realized one day that "hmm...i really just don't suffer much at all these days," then thought about a week or two before when I had been comparatively steeped in it. Daniel said in the ranch discussions 15/15/60/10 or so, but I would personally tilt it even more toward Anagami (although it could have just been the content of my life making fundamental suffering more difficult to distinguish). I would say 10/15/70/5 or something similar. I had previously labeled the 4 path model as arbitrary and useless, but when I view it through the context of relative suffering, the numbers correlate.

Jackson, I definitely agree that second path is the "big" dark night. When I looked at the fractal nature of them, 2nd path seemed dark night, and 3rd is very much equanimity. This also makes sense when we think about "the fall from grace" typically occurring for most people around this time (perhaps everyone). When all the dark nights line up, you're in for a mean time. Similarly, try to keep in mind that "letting go of enlightenment grasping" seems to be the hallmark of 2nd path. I imagine obsessive mapping can get in the way here of one is not careful.
Trent S H, modified 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:24 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:24 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Duncan,

I have also noticed a great deal of manipura activity in these later shifts. When I close my eyes, for example, my attention instantly focuses on that area and there is an intense simultaneous contraction/expansion which also feels as if it is "deepening" in a gut wrenching way. I associate manipura with thoughts of fear, death, dissolving, etc; and so this makes sense considering the circumstance.

I never really noticed ajna in a pronounced way, but I may have just not been paying attention. A couple of days ago, however, I had a ridiculous shift that had extremely intense reaction with the crown. I could literally feel a stream of energy pouring out of my head like a spotlight. What's more, it felt like it bent back around into the stomach or heart area. Combining that with the absolute centerlessness made the totality of the experience (which lasted 2-3 hours) feel like BEING twisted inside out and back to normal again, simultaneously, for as long as it lasted. Definitely the most wild "visual" opening I have ever had. Also, since that shift, all occurring fruitions seem to have colors now. Previously, I only saw white visual patterns, but now there are dark rainbow hues. Dunno if that means anything or not, but seems energy related.
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:39 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:39 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Hey Trent,

The obsessive mapping just seems to happen on its own. I think it's due to the fact that my concentration is getting much stronger, and I'm able to see how things unfold much more clearly now. Sadly, I know that I need to let go of the models. I'm sure my sub-conscious is clinging to them because it's the only way to makes sense of what's happening. Maybe adopting a simpler model would be a good stepping stone prior to leaving them in all in the dust.

Also, in regards to experienced suffering... at my current stage, it seems as though the suffering caused by day to day, mundane circumstances has noticeably diminished in intensity. It seems as though the bulk of my suffering lies in my resistance to uncomfortable, out-of-phase vibrations during my passes through the Dark Night. At this point it's easy to get out of that with some good practice time. I have a feeling that the Dark Night of my next full Path will be excruciating, but who knows?
Trent S H, modified 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:48 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 3/19/09 12:48 PM

RE: Sorting out real-time emptiness

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Jackson,

The models themselves aren't a hindrance, as they're just as empty as anything else. As long as you're not obsessive in a perceptual way (I hope that makes sense), then you don't need to worry about it. Seems like that's the case, hinted at by the way you mention it. So I wouldn't worry too much man.

A simple model like you mention helped me a lot when I was in similar territory and also having a hard time ignoring the maps. I just went with 4 markers: feels pleasant, feels unpleasant, A&P, new fruition. Noting them in this way, you're able to remind yourself of useful advice (like not getting lost in content when things feel bad), you avoid an obsessive level of mapping that could obstruct practice, and you're able to realize your progress in a way that creates momentum.