Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum

Are dark night phenomena always aversive? I had some experiences of it lasting for weeks/months last fall. I felt somewhat apathetic, unmotivated to do things. My sense of fear, stress, and anxiety was reduced and I didn't feel compulsively driven by them to do things. I noticed losing interest in reading fiction or seeing movies. I was able to function, particularly at work, by taking an altruistic Bodhisattva attitude. Since I wasn't driven by fear of consequences of not doing something, I focused on the positive consequences of how my actions would benefit others.

But really this wasn't an aversive state. I felt somewhat light and content, more disenchanted with external things (hence my chosen nickname). Is this just a drop in the bucket and the really heavy stuff is coming? Or do some people move through the dark night with relatively less hassle?

Incidentally, I am a student of Shinzen Young (for a few years now). I spoke to him about it and he said it sounded like dark night phenomena.

Sounds like "Knowledge of Dissolution". Hope that helps!

Hey.

I agree with Betawave. Note also that other stages can have qualities of dissolution within them. Equanimity can feel this way from time to time, and there are also hints of this stage in the other qualities you've described.

To answer another question you posed-- no, the dark night is not always abrasive. Some of them pass like the wind, and others can be complete hell. Some are long, dull and drawn out, while others may be extremely painful but relatively short in duration. Hard to tell with these things.

Trent

Thanks to both of you.

These are good questions and important issues. I agree with betawave and Trent.

It is hard to predict just how one's stuff, the situations of one's life, and the stages of insight will converge or diverge to make things pleasant or unpleasant, functional or dysfunctional, etc., and what is beneficial or dysfunctional may depend on one's definitions anyway. If the dark night caused someone to quit a job that really sucked or a relationship that was going nowhere good anyway, it might be beneficial, so there is a lot of richness and nuance that the standard maps obviously can't describe. Those things said, sometimes various passes through the thing really can screw people up, and so just being watchful for what is happening and what might be contributing to it can be helpful.

I just read MCTB and I am blown away. It's so straightforward, detailed but down-to-earth. I've read dozens of Dharma books and heard hundreds of Dharma talks and many times I get the feeling that people are regurtitating the same old stuff. But this book stands out.

Anyway, two more related questions, to Daniel or anyone else:

1. Do you incorporate metta practice, or recommend it, beyond just for developing concentration? I've been doing it for about 2 years (Sharon Salzberg-style) and found it rounds out my vipassana practice well. I notice a lot of emotional benefit from it. [Edit addition:] Could a practice like metta help mitigate the Dark Night periods?

2. I wonder if SSRI medications have any effect on Dark Night stages. On one hand it would seem insane to use a medication to "treat" a normal aspect of insight meditation. On the other hand, it could help a person get through a difficult phase. I ask mostly out of curiosity because I have been taking one as a treatment for anxiety (that long preceded my meditation practice). It doesn't seem to interfere with my practice at all. I have a normal and full range of emotion, still experience suffering, and have no problem noting impermanence and anatta.

I'm reading Daniel's book and I have read an article on his site about the A&P experience. I'm not sure, but I think I've gone through the A&P many times, especially during the frenzied personal prayer times I use to have as a Christian. As I began to "dig deeper" and make an effort to "get closer to Jesus", I had some problems with some things I was seeing around me. Soon enough, I ended up getting a different job, different house, different car, and different church. I was in a really rough time from 2004 to 2006, but it seemed to get even worse when I deconverted from Christianity. I basically became a real butthole, and I think getting a job as a cop didn't help. Any thoughts? Was I/ am I going through the dark night? I could be more specific if need be.

omg a dark nighting cop hahaha ;)

yeah jamie, sounds like you've had a couple passes through that territory. on one hand it doesnt seem like territory most people in the world will ever get to, but on the other it's not that rare either. all the focused prayer you were doing - and the intent behind it - probably had a lot to do with it. now the question, on an insight front, is how do you advance? that is, how do you get into, and make best use of, equanimity regarding formations, and from there find the three doors? and in the meantime, how do you keep from letting too much (or any, if you want to be a hardass) dark night bleed-through affect your every day life adversely? while these are two separate questions, it has been my experience that attempting to answer both will make figuring out each one much easier. in the meantime keep reading that book.. i first came across it and read it cover-to-cover while i was in really strong a&p land (great place to reading a dharma book btw, highly recommended) and it led me to book a 2.5 month retreat a week later. it took over another year from that point but thank god that hell is over.

edit add: i remember watching my life fall apart around me in really bizarre ways and wondering, 'am i a dark night yogi or just a neurotic mess using that as an excuse?' ... to which a friend, now a good friend, responded, 'well you could be both, as they are not mutually exclusive.' what a good question and what a good answer.

Back up to Nibbida's question: does the dark night always really torture you or sometimes is it milder: it varies tremendously. For some it is a long, mild thing, for others the peaks and valleys are sharp and deep, for some they might not notice much, and others can sometimes come right to the brink or over at times, and it is hard to predict what may happen after each A&P. I know many who have had long mild Dark Nights for one part of the path only to have rapid, nearly catastrophic ones later that lasted mere days years later. One way or another, the standard advice applies.

As TPG says in a roundabout way: getting stream entry generally helps, so it is highly recommended and doable, but that said, the later paths can bring surprises that are not always fun.

Maybe I'm posting to a stale thread, but anyway. I'm on SSRI (20 mg citalopram per day) in order not to derail completely after some insight retreat damage.

Symptoms were appearing after clear A&P stage/event and remaining up to equanimity, where they lessen but not disappear, intensifying significantly when falling back. Psychosomatic tension in the head region, quickly moving, flashes of headache, intense mental pain forming a depressive state when the mind gets stuck under real live pressure as opposed to relative fluidity in mid intensity retreats. The whole thing goes for about 4 years now and becomes slowly less hell like.

In my case SSRI clearly reduces the experienced pain to a supportable size but also seems to block progress, furthermore the pain seems slowly to adjust to SSRI and finds way to ship around it. So I'm perhaps about to enter a vicous cycle and do my best to avoid that.

greetings!