Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum


I sent this to Daniel as a PM and he suggested making it a public thread so here goes:

I'd like to outline my experiences a little as I thought I had attained a path or two, but my lack of review fruitions is causing me a bit of doubt. I noticed in MCTB it says review fruitions should occur about once a day, but this hasn't happened for me even though there have been some big changes and some single experiences which seemed a lot like fruitions.

A few months ago I was pretty sure I'd cycled into equanimity (feeling of a weight being lifted, meditation became effortless), and after a few weeks of this there was a moment where it felt like something being ripped away quite harshly (remember afterwards) followed by a very pleasant sense of release and the thought 'that must have been it'. This happened during the night, and the next day there was a noticeable shift in the sense that things seemed much clearer and immediate, like a veil had been lifted, like there was much less of a boundary between 'me' and 'the world'. The next day I had what I thought was another fruition, this time with a pleasant moment beforehand and the sense of release afterwards, but then I didn't have an experience like this for another month.

(cont.)

A month later I had the same pleasant entrance 'fruition' and another very noticeable shift with things being much clearer and much more anchored in the now, also with considerably less suffering. I didn't have any more moments like this until a week later when I was doing self-inquiry, there was an amazing moment where it was like something silvery and light looking back at me, but I was the silvery light on that side and there was nothing on this side. This was followed by a feeling which was completely different to the sense of release in other 'fruitions', it was more like a broad jhana which was very pleasant and lasted a few hours, and it switched to what I believe was sukkha (cool rather than exhilirating) after a while. Again there were no more experiences like this for a month.

(cont.)

A month later (a few days ago) meditation occured during the night automatically, and I was half asleep a lot of the time, it came to a point where there was a very sudden (but not painful) STOP, followed by a mild sense of release. I haven't noticed an exact definable shift point this time, although my days are generally much more pleasant now, and there is far less of that tension from the sense of watcher in the head. It feels softer and more subtle. My mind also doesn't grasp or reach out to objects anymore, for example when I listen to the hum of my computer the mind doesn't envelope it, it just seems to be where it is rather than something over here listening to it over there. That being said, I have yet again not been able to repeat the supposed fruition experience over the last few days.


Any thoughts?

Thank you
- Martin

Hi Martin,

It is all very cool stuff!

I am new to the Theravada maps so they are more than a bit like a foreign language that I haven't learned very well yet. So, take what I say with a grain of salt. If someones notices that I have made a "grammatical" error please feel free to point it out.

It would be helpful to know what came before as well as what came, or didn't come, after. What was your practice like leading up to the experiences you enumerate and what it is like now?

My take on the Paths is that once you have had one of these big E moments it is somehow always available to you when you turn your attention to it. There is a kind of permanence to attaining a path that is not present in what I think of as glimpses of Enlightenment that come before attaining a Path. There is nothing wrong with a glimpse of Enlightenment! The more you glimpse the goal the more likely you will be to reach the goal. You can think of it as walking through the grass. Do it once and there is no path, do it many times and there is. That doesn't match up with the suddenness with which a Path is attained, one moment you aren't a Stream Enterer and the next you are, still, preliminary glimpses of Enlightenment are very helpful in getting there.

Hope this helps.

Ed

martin,

while assessment can be difficult, and the tone on the dh.o. at the moment is to be wary of claims of attainment and their assessments, i'm gonna go ahead and say that your description of the path leading up to and the moments after what you thought to be stream-entry, while vague and possibly indicative of other states and stages and stage shifts as well, so far sits well for me. not noticing fruitions regularly, at least in that beginning period, though, doesn't sit as well, but imo, that needn't be as strong a criterion for discernment as MCTB suggests. i know someone who thinks he actually >missed< his first path fruition, and only caught on after he noticed his first review one. i also know other people acknowledged by still others i know to be path-winners who just don't notice this stuff as much as dan. and tbh, i rarely do too - after it was clear to me it was happening on its own 1-2 times a day (took several weeks before i was satisfied), i just stopped taking notice. i've been considering starting a thread on this topic.

on another note, the silvery light no-sides and the broad pleasantness > sukkha afterward sounds like a strong a&p to me.

also, i want to add that i agree with what ed said about availability upon reflection being one way to determine if what you got that you thought was a path really is one - the understanding, confidence, and undeniability (or comical deniability) that a path confers is, as best i can tell, permanent. of course, there are other stages, like the a&p the first time through, or some of the early formless realms maybe, that could be described in similar terms, so that as the sole diagnostic criterion would be inadequate.

ultimately though, the point of path-winning is to improve your life. you are detecting clear changes? let's see if they're relevant tomorrow! onward! rarrr

Sounds interesting, I'm looking forward to it.

Thank you both for your replies.


On a side note, I was thinking back to after the second month I described above, and there was a period of about a week where reality would seem to jump for a moment a bunch of times a day. They were like little blips which left me feeling a bit disorientated / dizzy. Could these be review fruitions, or are fruitions always really big events with powerful entry / exit points?

Thanks
- Martin

A few things. I did not know I had attained fruition until months after my first fruition. I was having several a day and did not know what it was until after getting my hands on MCTB and then analyzing the hell out of my experiences. That said, doubt is very natural throughout the entire path imo. I still have doubt about things-- it seems cyclical in some way or another.

That said, I had trouble identifying fruition until sometime mid 3rd path. I think that's mostly because my concentration became relatively crap, but I don't know. These days, a fruition is as noticeable as a punch in the face, so these things come and go for various reasons.

The best thing you can do is just push on. When you read MCTB, what don't you understand? What's at the end of a vibration? If you tap your finger on the desk, what's the difference in hearing it "outside" and hearing it "inside?" Who am I? Where is the suffering? Where is the self?!

Good luck,
Trent