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1st jhana questions

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1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/15/18 5:38 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Andromeda 8/15/18 11:24 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/15/18 8:11 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions curious 8/16/18 6:03 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Jason Massie 8/16/18 10:30 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/16/18 10:55 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Jason Massie 8/16/18 11:56 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/17/18 10:45 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/17/18 11:08 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/18/18 12:59 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/18/18 10:21 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/18/18 1:51 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/18/18 2:23 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/18/18 3:51 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/18/18 9:06 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Nick O 8/18/18 10:14 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/19/18 12:23 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Jason Massie 8/18/18 10:58 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/19/18 12:47 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/19/18 9:54 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/19/18 11:16 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/19/18 11:53 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/19/18 12:23 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/19/18 12:22 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/19/18 12:25 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/19/18 12:24 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/19/18 12:30 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/19/18 12:48 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/20/18 1:02 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/19/18 12:43 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/20/18 1:18 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Keshin lu 8/20/18 4:58 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/20/18 6:59 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/20/18 10:06 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/20/18 10:18 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/20/18 10:35 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/23/18 6:39 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Lars 8/26/18 2:59 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/26/18 8:44 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Lars 8/27/18 1:11 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/27/18 6:53 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Lars 8/27/18 4:49 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris O. 8/27/18 9:27 PM
RE: 1st jhana questions Lars 8/28/18 1:09 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Peter Mendosa 8/28/18 9:32 AM
RE: 1st jhana questions Chris Marti 8/28/18 9:39 AM
1st jhana questions
Answer
8/15/18 5:38 AM
Hello everyone


Recently started practicing with the Kasina object(white) and I'd like some help with whether I reached the 1st Jhana or not..

I can bring up the object and keep the mind focused and stable with the object for 30minutes without any problems now, the mind is very calm and peaceful, no disturbance no hindrances present.

Can someone help me how the 1st jhana experience feels like or how it should feel or what should happen in the mind upon having the 1st jhana? 

Thanks a lot 

Peter

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/15/18 11:24 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Hi Peter,

The topic of what constitutes jhana and which jhana is which is large and hotly debated and it confused the heck out of me for many years. However, Daniel's chapter on the subject in MCTB2 is excellent and very much worth reading if you haven't done so yet. It should answer all your questions and more. Also, the book he wrote with Shannon Stein on Fire Kasina has a lot of great stuff on using a visual object for shamatha practice, in this case a candle flame.

You might find that asking yourself the question "which of the jhanic factors are present?" is helpful for figuring things out. Whatever you discover, it sounds like you are practicing well and having a good time, so keep at it!

Metta,

Andromeda

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/15/18 8:11 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:
Hi Peter,

The topic of what constitutes jhana and which jhana is which is large and hotly debated and it confused the heck out of me for many years. However, Daniel's chapter on the subject in MCTB2 is excellent and very much worth reading if you haven't done so yet. It should answer all your questions and more. Also, the book he wrote with Shannon Stein on Fire Kasina has a lot of great stuff on using a visual object for shamatha practice, in this case a candle flame.

You might find that asking yourself the question "which of the jhanic factors are present?" is helpful for figuring things out. Whatever you discover, it sounds like you are practicing well and having a good time, so keep at it!

Metta,

Andromeda
Thank you for the detailed answer, im looking for more of an experiential answer, like what happens when you reach the first Jhana, what the experience feels like etc

Also I read about the development of the fire Kasina, and those arent the experiences Im having with the white Kasina
Like the Kasina now never goes away its always on mind mind, even when im trying to sleep, it needs no effort to keep it there, its just there all the time

The reviewing of the jhanic factors happens after the jhana if im not confused?

Thanks

Peter

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/16/18 6:03 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Hi Peter, sounds a bit like access concentration.

I practice jhana on my own with limited contact with teachers, so my comments may be off base.  Having said that, the first time I really felt piti was a pulsing thrill like shooting a cork off a shaken up bottle - much as Leigh Brasington describes.  I let it fade quickly because I was too suprised to concentrate on sustaining it.  I have seldom felt it as strongly since.  Now, I tend to feel a more settled piti, I would characterise it as having a physical thrill of the body about it.  It can also be a buzzy feeling throughout the body, or a tingling of the skin  It is very pleasant, but it is not happiness and bliss as there are a separate jhana factor (sukkha).  Piti can intensify into raptures with sexual overtones.

I can tell I am in access concentration when the mind and breathing have calmed right down and I have a kind of stable equanimious feeling and very strong yet relaxed concentration.  Then I look for the thrill of pleasure/tingling/rapture somewhere in the body.  Once I find it I concentrate into it, and try to spread it around the whole body.  If I can't find it, I create it by activating the root chakra (squeezing the muscles around the perineum).  Once the piti is thoroughly estabished, I aim to do the same for sukkha (happiness and bliss) which is more of a head thing than a body thing.  In first jhana verbal formations are still active, so some thought continues, although fairly quietly.  After a long period of jhana you can then move to second jhana by letting the verbal thought subside in favour of non-conceptual thinking and bliss.  I find rotating the eyes upwards helps to do that, when the time comes. 

There actually seem to be quite a few different flavours of piti and sukkha, and the piti I feel in second jhana is subtly different from the piti I feel in first jhana.  Similarly, the sukkha in third jhana seems a bit different from the sukkha in second jhana.  The strength of the jhana also varies, and I think this is to do with how much you have quietened other mental processes so the jhana factors predominate.

Hope this helps.  There are many others on the site who have much more jhana experience that me, so hopefully they will chip in.  However, I have noticed that as people progress their phenomenological experience and priorites change, and their vocabulary and advice may come from quite a different perspective.  So sometimes there is a bit of communication gap between the earlier meditators and the masters.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/16/18 10:30 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
It might be the 2nd jhana. The first jhana requires more effort than you are describing. Check out The Fire Kasina mentioned earlier. See page 52 on day 4 for descriptions of the 4 jhanas using a kasina. 

For confirmation, look for the characteristics of the 1st and 3rd jhanas before and after.

Also note that when using visualization, you might not catch the tactile clues like rapture and bliss that others use to describe jhanas. 

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/16/18 10:55 PM as a reply to Jason Massie.
So I forgot my password for my old account.. seems old age is catching up with me.

First of all thank you for the answers

But it still not clear for me what the 1st jhana should look like, in the Fire Kasina book Daniel describes the janas as visual differences from one stage to another, yet what i hear from other practicioners the moment you are in the Jhana, you arent conscious anymore. 

And the reviewing phase is happening after the absorption, recalling the jhanic factors as its stated in the Visuddhimagga

any insight on this?

thanks

Peter

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/16/18 11:56 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
My limited experience with jhana/kasina lines up with page 52.

1st - unstable, narrow, sustained effort - the nimitta moves and fades in and out. 
2nd - narrow, detailed, much less effort - the nimitta is steady with little effort and the detail is amplified. A&P feel if I bring in a vipassana aspect to it.

For me, I notice the shift into 2nd when the volume on visual detail cranks up.

You might also check out how Daniel describes jhana in mctb2 in chapter 26. The wide we world of jhana. There are definitely those that would say that his descriptions are not real jhana. However, his descriptions line up with my experience so it is pretty functional for me.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/17/18 10:45 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
but Jhana means absorption the mind merges with the object, there isnt an object-subject scnenario anymore


when I sarted parciticing with the kasina it goes all over the place difficult to keep it in the center and calm, and as the concentration and mindfulness develops its settling in the center of your vision and at the same time the roundness gets perfect the edges are becoming sharper, but this isnt 1st jhana cause there is still an object the mind is observing


so id really would like to know whats going on, the visuddhimagga says you can stay in the absorption for 7 days max, the jhana cosciousness is really close to the Bhavanga citta which means you arent conscious in the jhana anymore, but with making a resolution before entering a jhana the moment you come out you can review its factors or you can review the 3 universal characteristics 

what you are describing doesnt sound like an absorption to me neither does what i read in the fire Kasina book..

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/17/18 11:08 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
i hope someone can chime in

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 12:59 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
In the third
jhana we find the beginning of subtle 3D shapes, and it
can develop to rich, complex images, often with some
repetitive theme and some sense of more space and depth.
There can still be a lot ofcooler bliss in the third jhana .
Fourth jhana is where we find clear luminous alive
images, like living daydreams but much more clear, and
the bliss is gone. A somehow pleasant neutrality prevails,
and the mantra may go silent. The 3D objects may get
detailed to a degree it is hard to believe your mind gen-
erated, and represent a radical increase in visualisation
ability. Fourth jhana images often incorporate a substan-
tial sense of spaciousness. Body sensations may vanish,
vibrations may drop off, and one may find one’s attention
totally buying into dream-like realms.

My Kasina object is a 3D object, crystal clear gemstone perfection, body sensations are not as pronounced anymore and my full attention is on the object

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 10:21 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
but Jhana means absorption the mind merges with the object, there isnt an object-subject scnenario anymore

There is still a subtle subject-object experience going on. The deeper the jhana, the more subtle the duality. If there is a true loss of consciousness then we have entered cessation, what is typically called "nirvana" in Theravada Buddhism. That is the purest non-dual experience.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 1:51 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
but Jhana means absorption the mind merges with the object, there isnt an object-subject scnenario anymore

There is still a subtle subject-object experience going on. The deeper the jhana, the more subtle the duality. If there is a true loss of consciousness then we have entered cessation, what is typically called "nirvana" in Theravada Buddhism. That is the purest non-dual experience.


That isnt correct Im afraid, if there is still subject and object, that means you havent reached absorption only strong access concentration. If the concentration is strong enough the mind becomes absorbed in the object



Comprehensive manual of Ahbidhamma

The jhanas are attained by the method of meditation called the
development of calm or serenity (samathabhavana). This type of medi-
tation involves the strengthening of the faculty of concentration
(samadhi). By fixing the mind upon a single selected object, all mental
distraction is eliminated. The hindrances are suppressed and the mind
becomes fully absorbed in its object.




Absorption (appana): Appana primarily signifies a highly developed
form of vitakka, initial application of mind, which thrusts the associ-
ated mental states so deeply into the object that they become absorbed
in it. Although vitakka is absent in the jhanas beyond the first, because
the mind that has entered jhana becomes fixed one-pointedly on its ob-
ject, the word appana comes to be extended to all meditative attainments
pertaining to the fine-material, immaterial, and supramundane planes.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 2:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
but Jhana means absorption the mind merges with the object, there isnt an object-subject scnenario anymore

There is still a subtle subject-object experience going on. The deeper the jhana, the more subtle the duality. If there is a true loss of consciousness then we have entered cessation, what is typically called "nirvana" in Theravada Buddhism. That is the purest non-dual experience.
Nibbana isnt an experience, it is the unconditioned
Nirodha samapatti is also a cessation

Theravada->Pali->Nibbana
Mahayana->Sanskrit->Nirvana

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 3:51 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Peter, do you have a lot of personal experience with jhanas? Do have personal experience with cessation? 

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 9:06 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Peter, do you have a lot of personal experience with jhanas? Do have personal experience with cessation? 


I do both, but with the jhanas only the first 1, and even that was a complete cut off. No visual image anymore the mind gets sucked into the object and the next moment you are out flowing in joy rapture, but there is a distinct cut off point where the mind blacks out and then comes out from the absorption. but all the information I read about it here is still talking about comprehending on the visual images itself and that doesnt sound like according to any buddhist text ( original ) 

I know its a very subtle sublime mindstate but once your mind is clear and concentrated enough and you have enough mindfulness, you notice the cut off point, that required a lot of training and learning how to balance the faculties.


I just dont want people reading about moving or steady objects when experiencing 1234 jhanas because you cannot called that a jhana.

In order to enter even just the first jhana, the mind has to go into full absoprtion or we cannot talk about reaching that level
(and yes the gross faculties start presenting themselves once you can recall the jhana at will whenever, wherever, as long as one wishes etc..) and you start using an addhitana to see the factors clear




I know how much craving and frustration present when you are unable to attain these levels, and people would make up anything to make themselves(or others) believe that they attained 1st 2nd 3rd so on jhanas.

Ultimately this is wrong, claiming false attainments is a heavy Kamma and so as spreading wrong kind of information.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 10:14 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Is the above what is typically discussed here as "hard" Jhana? 

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/18/18 10:58 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
So you have your definition of jhana. Why come here and ask if you have reached jhana? Does your experience meet your definition? Only you can ask that.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:23 AM as a reply to Nick O.
Nick O:
Is the above what is typically discussed here as "hard" Jhana? 


you see this is the thing, there is no soft or hard jhana, there is either an absorption or not

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:47 AM as a reply to Jason Massie.
Jason Massie:
So you have your definition of jhana. Why come here and ask if you have reached jhana? Does your experience meet your definition? Only you can ask that.


why come here? because you are spreading misinformation,
misleading people into believeing that they reachead something is a big no no

i read so many posts here people saying they reached all the rhupa and the arhupa jhanas with ease, which is really wonderful if someone can do that, but when they describe their experiences ( as stated above) those arent absorptions

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 9:54 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
No visual image anymore the mind gets sucked into the object and the next moment you are out flowing in joy rapture, but there is a distinct cut off point where the mind blacks out and then comes out from the absorption.

This sounds like description of cessation, Peter. If that's what you have been referring to here then yes, there is no subject-object duality during that black-out.

Thoughts?


RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 11:16 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
No visual image anymore the mind gets sucked into the object and the next moment you are out flowing in joy rapture, but there is a distinct cut off point where the mind blacks out and then comes out from the absorption.

This sounds like description of cessation, Peter. If that's what you have been referring to here then yes, there is no subject-object duality during that black-out.

Thoughts?

the cessation is absorption as well, but there the mind takes the unconditioned as its object, in jhana its the samatha object

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 11:53 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
I agree with you - the build-up to cessation has the same "feel" to it - at least until consciousness winks out - as the jhanas. Here's how I described it a few months after having my first cessation:

While observing an object in meditation – let’s say the breath entering and leaving my nostrils – I perceive a slow building of energy and focus. The in-breath starts to bring a very fine set of vibrations in the top of the head and an almost giddy mental feeling, sort of like a tiny whiff of laughing gas, that grows as the breath is drawn and until it is at its peak. The peak of the breath brings a sharp distinct break and when the out-breath starts that same energetic and finely vibrating giddy feeling resumes (this not a hyperventilation-like giddiness). Each successive breath slowly increases the intensity of these fine vibrations until a kind of crescendo is reached, at which point all the energy that has built up quickly flows to the observed object, appears to merge with the object and then FLASH!, an image appears, a complex image, for just a tiny fraction of a second, after which everything – and I do mean EVERYTHING – winks out of existence. 

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I agree with you - the build-up to cessation has the same "feel" to it - at least until consciousness winks out - as the jhanas. Here's how I described it a few months after having my first cessation:

While observing an object in meditation – let’s say the breath entering and leaving my nostrils – I perceive a slow building of energy and focus. The in-breath starts to bring a very fine set of vibrations in the top of the head and an almost giddy mental feeling, sort of like a tiny whiff of laughing gas, that grows as the breath is drawn and until it is at its peak. The peak of the breath brings a sharp distinct break and when the out-breath starts that same energetic and finely vibrating giddy feeling resumes (this not a hyperventilation-like giddiness). Each successive breath slowly increases the intensity of these fine vibrations until a kind of crescendo is reached, at which point all the energy that has built up quickly flows to the observed object, appears to merge with the object and then FLASH!, an image appears, a complex image, for just a tiny fraction of a second, after which everything – and I do mean EVERYTHING – winks out of existence. 

Yes things get really interesting when you start seeing the net of delusion before cessation, its a very strange state indeed
those japanese KOANS are directing the mind to this state, which is in itself a paradox

samatha in the other hand doesnt have this strange entree or exit (depends from which way you see it) its more like melting into an endless tunnel just moments before the full absorption takes place

btw what you describe there sounds more like a jhana than a cessation to me

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:22 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
I periodically turn to The Blue Cliff Record to get my fix of koans.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:24 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
samatha in the other hand doesnt have this strange entree or exit (depends from which way you see it) its more like melting into an endless tunnel just moments before the full absorption takes place

Which seems to be a good working description of nirodha samapati.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:25 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
edited the comment above

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:30 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
samatha in the other hand doesnt have this strange entree or exit (depends from which way you see it) its more like melting into an endless tunnel just moments before the full absorption takes place

Which seems to be a good working description of nirodha samapati.

Nirodha samapatti is very rare to come by, its a special skill that requires mastery off all the rhupa and arhupa jhanas
higher concentrated states can be mistaken with this

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:48 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Nirodha samapatti is very rare to come by, its a special skill that requires mastery off all the rhupa and arhupa jhanas

Does your description of it (in your post above) stem from readings or from personal experience?

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/19/18 12:43 PM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
btw what you describe there sounds more like a jhana than a cessation to me

YMMV

How would you describe cessation? Will your description come from personal experience or from reading about it?

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/20/18 1:02 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
with path and fruition experiences yes, not with Nirodha Samapatti

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/20/18 1:18 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
btw what you describe there sounds more like a jhana than a cessation to me

YMMV

How would you describe cessation? Will your description come from personal experience or from reading about it?

the path and fruition experience is not a nothingness experience, its not like everything disappears
the best way to describe is from the film Matrix, the conventional consciousness disappears for a moment and you are experiencing reality ( Neo wakes up in the pod) but the next moment you are back in the conventional world, but what happened in the split of a second resonates through the core of you, its the same world but you saw what it is all about


in more experintial way, from the moment you sit down, your body disappears, your feelingsa disappear, and you are just there watching the consciousness rising and passing away, there you make a wish (adhitthanna) or if youve been there before then you know how to bring up the fruition experience, and the conventional mind starts to loose its grip, it feels like falling into a whole in the ground and as you fall the mental process related to your existence which make up space time and self are disappearing like the way you imagine dropping an ice cube into hot water the form the size the texture just disappear 


no bright light no big bang, none of that

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/20/18 4:58 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Hi Peter,

I’m a bit late to chime in but here goes my 2c

Im aware of many description of jhanas by many different teachers. And yes they’re confusing as anything but the results or how it shift our perceptions and changes us is quite the same.

For example, a fruition is ....no time, no i 
Nirodha Samapatti....formless, then unconsciousness...follows by huge energy surge.

If cessation persists for a long time, mine 18 months! With nirodha at almost every sit, then the next phase in the path should follow...ie emptiness, themeless and undirectedness. This phase have the classic phenomenon of emptiness and unstickiness. The sense of “I am” is very faint , disburse, expansive. There is almost 100% living at contact except for that nity grity amness. 

I found abidharma which is a later version of Pali canon is overload with technicalities making jhanas inaccessible.  Which is not true at all. 

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/20/18 6:59 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
in more experintial way, from the moment you sit down, your body disappears, your feelingsa disappear, and you are just there watching the consciousness rising and passing away, there you make a wish (adhitthanna) or if youve been there before then you know how to bring up the fruition experience, and the conventional mind starts to loose its grip, it feels like falling into a whole in the ground and as you fall the mental process related to your existence which make up space time and self are disappearing like the way you imagine dropping an ice cube into hot water the form the size the texture just disappear 


This appears to me to be a description of a jhanic state, not a cessation. 


emoticon

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/20/18 10:06 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
in more experintial way, from the moment you sit down, your body disappears, your feelingsa disappear, and you are just there watching the consciousness rising and passing away, there you make a wish (adhitthanna) or if youve been there before then you know how to bring up the fruition experience, and the conventional mind starts to loose its grip, it feels like falling into a whole in the ground and as you fall the mental process related to your existence which make up space time and self are disappearing like the way you imagine dropping an ice cube into hot water the form the size the texture just disappear 


This appears to me to be a description of a jhanic state, not a cessation. 


emoticon
there is no energy surge, joy, rapture, etc with that experience in contrast with the jhanic states and clearly the unconditioned enters the mind stream
jhanic state are very different

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/20/18 10:18 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
We seem to have come to an impasse. This could be due to a difference in terminology or a different set of experiences and how we interpret them. We'd probably have to sit down face to face to really figure it out.


emoticon

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/20/18 10:35 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
We seem to have come to an impasse. This could be due to a difference in terminology or a different set of experiences and how we interpret them. We'd probably have to sit down face to face to really figure it out.


emoticon
It also could be the use of words, but both Jhana and cessation are absorptions but one of the main difference is the afterglow of the event.

after jhana absorption you will feel drugged because the jhanic fine material conciousness(which is the bhavanga of those beings in the fine material plane) is very close to the bhavanga and it leaves this "aftertaste" of being out of this world, not registering muhc beause of the amount of concentration, kinda like a tunnel vision



after cessation you are very present, everything is sharp and clear with full on mindfulness 


so its concentration vs mindfulness

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/23/18 6:39 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Oh no -- we agree again!

After cessation, the world is new, fresh, bright and clear. After jhanas, the world is duller, quiet, like observing it through a gray filter, or like being under water.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/26/18 2:59 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
After cessation, the world is new, fresh, bright and clear.


A question for both of you, has your experience of the cessation afterglow changed over time? Was the first more intense? Did it last for hours or days? Do your current afterglows have the same intensity?

Also, do path and fruition have a similar afterglow, if not how do they differ?

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/26/18 8:44 AM as a reply to Lars.
By far the most extensive cessation and fruition I've experienced was the first one, at stream entry/first path. The second was at third path. The first and third path cessations were very different and on top of that there appears to be a spectrum of cessation experiences, from small blips to major path events. I have since had nothing like the first path stream entry event. That one stands out as the most impactful and the one with the most "wow."

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/27/18 1:11 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Thanks Chris, I appreciate the response. Regarding the spectrum, have you ever encountered or heard of a bodily cessation that didn't involve the usual full cessation, but instead was just limited to a particular sense door (or subset of one)? It one particular case it was as if a nerve cluster had a cessation, with the dit-dit-dit-<reset> followed by intense pleasure (while doing vipassana on pain in that cluster). However hearing, seeing, consciousness etc didn't cease momentarily, only the sensations coming from the nerve cluster.

Not a big deal, but always wondered if that one was "scripted" or some A&P thing, i've never heard of one described like that.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/27/18 6:53 AM as a reply to Lars.
Lars:

... have you ever encountered or heard of a bodily cessation that didn't involve the usual full cessation, but instead was just limited to a particular sense door (or subset of one)?

I've never heard of that, no. The part of me that experiences cessations says, "Hey, that's not a cessation, but could be something else." I think that because a cessation is, by definition, a complete loss of consciousness and total disappearance of the subject-object experience.


RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/27/18 4:49 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
That's what i'd assumed as well. Probably just another of the many possible distractions on the path, thanks again.

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/27/18 9:27 PM as a reply to Lars.
Lars:
Thanks Chris, I appreciate the response. Regarding the spectrum, have you ever encountered or heard of a bodily cessation that didn't involve the usual full cessation, but instead was just limited to a particular sense door (or subset of one)? It one particular case it was as if a nerve cluster had a cessation, with the dit-dit-dit-<reset> followed by intense pleasure (while doing vipassana on pain in that cluster). However hearing, seeing, consciousness etc didn't cease momentarily, only the sensations coming from the nerve cluster.

Not a big deal, but always wondered if that one was "scripted" or some A&P thing, i've never heard of one described like that.


Sounds similar to a phenomena I've experienced. I'll be in mid or high EQ and experience the same kind of somatic discharge of tension through the body that one typically gets immediately following a cessation, as if there was a body circuit breaker that tripped off then back on. A couple minutes later, I'll have moved through/back up to EQ.

Your experience sounds a little more specific/localized to one area vs. my experience where it's typically a whole-body phenomenon. I've come to think of the experience as some sort of "purification" or tweak to the body-mind wiring. It can feel strikingly similar to a cessation with respect to its immediate effect in/on the body--but there's no actual cessation of mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/28/18 1:09 AM as a reply to Chris O..
Chris O.:
Your experience sounds a little more specific/localized to one area vs. my experience where it's typically a whole-body phenomenon. I've come to think of the experience as some sort of "purification" or tweak to the body-mind wiring. It can feel strikingly similar to a cessation with respect to its immediate effect in/on the body--but there's no actual cessation of mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Interesting, there was another that was whole body, and actually gave me access to a new state (so at the time I thought it was a path). In both cases there were permanent changes, so some sort of wiring tweak isn't out of the question.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ about sums it up lol, i'll just keep practising. emoticon

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/28/18 9:32 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
By far the most extensive cessation and fruition I've experienced was the first one, at stream entry/first path. The second was at third path. The first and third path cessations were very different and on top of that there appears to be a spectrum of cessation experiences, from small blips to major path events. I have since had nothing like the first path stream entry event. That one stands out as the most impactful and the one with the most "wow."


every path experience is a wow experience, unless you keep on repeating your first fruition experience
even that when you keep on repeating it it gets clearer and clearer, but 2nd and specially the 3rd is completely different in terms of afterglow, or effects that leaves on your mind stream

RE: 1st jhana questions
Answer
8/28/18 9:39 AM as a reply to Peter Mendosa.
Peter, thanks for validating my experience   emoticon