energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment - Discussion
energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 15 Years ago at 6/3/09 7:38 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/3/09 7:38 AM
energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum
I'm sorry in advance for asking a question that might have already been asked many times before. I searched before posting but couldn't find a similar discussion.
I attended S.N. Goenka retreat two months ago. In the last couple of days we were asked to scan our bodies up and down and feel the energy flowing unhindered outside and inside our bodies.
Since I came back (read my profile for more details) and still have that energy sensation, sometimes it's flowing and sometimes it's blocked in certain areas. Now I came to see pains and discomforts in my body in terms of energy blockage.
My question: is there a relationship between clearing the energy in my body and allowing it to flow and vipassana? While the dvd of S.N. Goenka talked about the energy flow, the teacher assistant seemed disinterested and emphasized just observing whatever sensation that comes.
I got the impression that Deniel also sees this energy flow as a symptom of certain stages rather than something that could be utilized for progress.
Amr
I'm sorry in advance for asking a question that might have already been asked many times before. I searched before posting but couldn't find a similar discussion.
I attended S.N. Goenka retreat two months ago. In the last couple of days we were asked to scan our bodies up and down and feel the energy flowing unhindered outside and inside our bodies.
Since I came back (read my profile for more details) and still have that energy sensation, sometimes it's flowing and sometimes it's blocked in certain areas. Now I came to see pains and discomforts in my body in terms of energy blockage.
My question: is there a relationship between clearing the energy in my body and allowing it to flow and vipassana? While the dvd of S.N. Goenka talked about the energy flow, the teacher assistant seemed disinterested and emphasized just observing whatever sensation that comes.
I got the impression that Deniel also sees this energy flow as a symptom of certain stages rather than something that could be utilized for progress.
Amr
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 6/3/09 7:57 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/3/09 7:57 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Aberino
I am not a very experienced meditator but I read your profile and identified with it, so just wanted to chime in that I experienced this shortly after restarting my meditation practice a couple months ago after reading MCTB. Over a period of a few days the sensations of "chi" in my body that I detected in vipassana grew stronger and stronger and were often quite unpleasant. Over a couple of days they grew so strong that I was unable to avoid noticing them throughout the day, except occasionally when my mind was preoccupied with a conversation or something else that demanded attention. I felt quite miserable and noted that I had felt this way in times past but decided this time to just stay with the feelings, notice how they moved and not fight them or manipulate them in any way. Just passively accept and observe them. In the evening I was talking to someone and paused, noticing that the unpleasant sensations were gone and had been replaced by a warm, gentle and even pulse of vibrations throughout my body. I felt greatly relieved. I then went to eat some food and it tasted almost too strong, indicating that my senses were heightened in some way. The next day the vibrations were weaker and less noticeable and have remained as such. Since then I sometimes notice that I seem to be "directing my attention" to certain places very rapidly during vipassana, body-scanning almost without intending to...I find this annoying but try to accept it.
I also believe I experienced the "energy stagnating in head' thing directly as a result of trying to manipulate the chi: it was unpleasant, I felt very hot and did not sleep so much as two hours or eat hardly anything for three days combined, but still felt wide awake and very mentally agitated.
I guess my point is, in my experience your teacher at the retreat's advice sounds like good advice.
I am not a very experienced meditator but I read your profile and identified with it, so just wanted to chime in that I experienced this shortly after restarting my meditation practice a couple months ago after reading MCTB. Over a period of a few days the sensations of "chi" in my body that I detected in vipassana grew stronger and stronger and were often quite unpleasant. Over a couple of days they grew so strong that I was unable to avoid noticing them throughout the day, except occasionally when my mind was preoccupied with a conversation or something else that demanded attention. I felt quite miserable and noted that I had felt this way in times past but decided this time to just stay with the feelings, notice how they moved and not fight them or manipulate them in any way. Just passively accept and observe them. In the evening I was talking to someone and paused, noticing that the unpleasant sensations were gone and had been replaced by a warm, gentle and even pulse of vibrations throughout my body. I felt greatly relieved. I then went to eat some food and it tasted almost too strong, indicating that my senses were heightened in some way. The next day the vibrations were weaker and less noticeable and have remained as such. Since then I sometimes notice that I seem to be "directing my attention" to certain places very rapidly during vipassana, body-scanning almost without intending to...I find this annoying but try to accept it.
I also believe I experienced the "energy stagnating in head' thing directly as a result of trying to manipulate the chi: it was unpleasant, I felt very hot and did not sleep so much as two hours or eat hardly anything for three days combined, but still felt wide awake and very mentally agitated.
I guess my point is, in my experience your teacher at the retreat's advice sounds like good advice.
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 6/3/09 11:16 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/3/09 11:16 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
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Author: thittato
This is a great article by Shinzen Young on the topic: http://www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/Flow.pdf
He is basically saying that as one starts to deconstruct the solidity of ones experience by tuning into its impermanent quality one will indeed become more aware of prana/chi.
This is a great article by Shinzen Young on the topic: http://www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/Flow.pdf
He is basically saying that as one starts to deconstruct the solidity of ones experience by tuning into its impermanent quality one will indeed become more aware of prana/chi.
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 3:45 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 3:45 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent PostsWet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 7:13 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 7:13 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
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Author: yadidb
I believe you may call what you experience by any name (chi, prana, energy, sensations, vibrations, something, feeling, etc) but it is what it is isn't it ..
From my understanding the goal of the Vipassana practice is to observe 'what's going on' which may be labelled as anything (sensations/energy/etc) and to see the impermanence/unsatisfactory and self-lessness of that.
I think that once you start trying to change something, unblock something, you've probably -changed your practice from Vipassana which is observation.
I believe you may call what you experience by any name (chi, prana, energy, sensations, vibrations, something, feeling, etc) but it is what it is isn't it ..
From my understanding the goal of the Vipassana practice is to observe 'what's going on' which may be labelled as anything (sensations/energy/etc) and to see the impermanence/unsatisfactory and self-lessness of that.
I think that once you start trying to change something, unblock something, you've probably -changed your practice from Vipassana which is observation.
Mike L, modified 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 4:38 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 4:38 PM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 75 Join Date: 5/13/09 Recent Posts
Isn't Vipassana itself the process of changing one's attention and perceptions, unblocking clear seeing? Can one not observe desire, intention/decision, action, results, evaluation, and so on when directing energy -- or does that particular process tend towards concentration over insight?
Wet Paint, modified 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 8:28 PM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/4/09 8:28 PM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
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Author: yadidb
Well, possibly,
I'm just relating from my own practice in which I try to see what's going on as precisely and accurately as possible..
You could say that I'm changing something - changing the habit of seeing things through the illusions of permanence, satisfactoryness and selfness.
or possibly you could say I'm changing my attention from one object to the other.. true.
But I was referring to consciously trying to move things around and stuff - which is probably a useful practice aswell from what I understood from people who do energy-based practices, but I have no experience in that field.
Well, possibly,
I'm just relating from my own practice in which I try to see what's going on as precisely and accurately as possible..
You could say that I'm changing something - changing the habit of seeing things through the illusions of permanence, satisfactoryness and selfness.
or possibly you could say I'm changing my attention from one object to the other.. true.
But I was referring to consciously trying to move things around and stuff - which is probably a useful practice aswell from what I understood from people who do energy-based practices, but I have no experience in that field.
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 4:27 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 4:27 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Practically speaking, I agree that Vipassana is about observing and studying what is. But as in quantum mechanics observing an object changes it.
When I say I can direct the energy to different places all I do is just move my attention to different parts of my body and the energy just follows.
If there is pain or discomfort in one part of my body and I give it attention (observe) with equanimity this part of the body relaxes and the energy flows. If there is aversion or a desire to get rid of the sensation while I'm observing, that causes tension in the body and blockage and stagnation continues.
I understand that Vipassana is not energy work. But I had a hunch that in the S.N Goenka method, scanning the body up and down quickly but with equanimity was meant to facilitate the energy flow. And my question was if this is true? If so, then for what? The article by Shinzen Young sheds some light on that.
I have to admit though that I’m also concerned that observing the body with this mind set could be a diversion. When meditators talk about realizing that a solid sensation is just a vibration when observed closely, I see energy attacking a solid sensation and dissolving it to vibration to allow its flow. I think there is a big difference between the two.
Any thoughts?
When I say I can direct the energy to different places all I do is just move my attention to different parts of my body and the energy just follows.
If there is pain or discomfort in one part of my body and I give it attention (observe) with equanimity this part of the body relaxes and the energy flows. If there is aversion or a desire to get rid of the sensation while I'm observing, that causes tension in the body and blockage and stagnation continues.
I understand that Vipassana is not energy work. But I had a hunch that in the S.N Goenka method, scanning the body up and down quickly but with equanimity was meant to facilitate the energy flow. And my question was if this is true? If so, then for what? The article by Shinzen Young sheds some light on that.
I have to admit though that I’m also concerned that observing the body with this mind set could be a diversion. When meditators talk about realizing that a solid sensation is just a vibration when observed closely, I see energy attacking a solid sensation and dissolving it to vibration to allow its flow. I think there is a big difference between the two.
Any thoughts?
tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 6:10 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 6:10 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
yeah, it's stage specific and doesnt really matter what you do or dont do as long as you keep watching whats going on with diligence, precision and full engagement.
i have a friend who likes to watch energy move around his body. i like to just watch what happens, whether energy moves or not. both of us got path. the take-away message is keep paying attention and you'll figure out what to do, and even if you dont, just follow the instructions anyway. too much concern about what should be happening on the cushion = grief. then again, grief = suffering characteristic, so either way you win so long as you keep paying attention.
helpful?
i have a friend who likes to watch energy move around his body. i like to just watch what happens, whether energy moves or not. both of us got path. the take-away message is keep paying attention and you'll figure out what to do, and even if you dont, just follow the instructions anyway. too much concern about what should be happening on the cushion = grief. then again, grief = suffering characteristic, so either way you win so long as you keep paying attention.
helpful?
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 6:49 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 6:49 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Poststarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 7:07 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/5/09 7:07 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent PostsDaniel M Ingram, modified 15 Years ago at 6/6/09 6:08 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/6/09 6:08 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 3293 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
This is a good thread.
A few points:
1) It is true that this is a stage-specific thing: as TPG says: unpleasant with blockages: Stage 3 (Three Characteristics), when it turns pleasant and the energy is flowing well, A&P.
2) When trying to cross the A&P, it is ok to focus on the energy movement, the impermanence of each little pulse, the tensions where they are blocked (suffering), that the energy moves on its own (emptiness), as in the 3rd and 4th insight stages, there is a lot of overlap between more energy-focused work and vipassana, and both lead to basically the same thing at that level.
3) Focusing on energy work at the later stages is harder, as in Dissolution that follows the A&P, nearly all the vibratory/chi/chakra/channel/whatnot will not be easily perceived, and this can cause frustration to the person who had good success with a more energy-focused approach in the early stages (where it works well), and thought it would work well later, which it doesn't. There are those who level this basic point at the Goenka tradition and say it is why it is very good at getting people to cross the A&P and not so good for those who which to cross the Dark Night.
4) In the later Dark Night, the vibrations tend to be wide, feel dispersed, are peripheral, feel too complex, too irritating for most people to have any sense of success from standard energy-movement, blockage clearing approaches, as the deeper one goes, the worse it tends to get. However, staying at a level of things vibrating, however they vibrate, and regardless of whether or not it feels good or right, can be the subtle shift that makes it work out well, and makes the subtle shift from a more energy-clearing approach to a pure vipassana approach. I got very far in my early practice because I could just stay with things vibrating, however they vibrated and however much it sucked, and it allowed me to make rapid progress in insight.
A few points:
1) It is true that this is a stage-specific thing: as TPG says: unpleasant with blockages: Stage 3 (Three Characteristics), when it turns pleasant and the energy is flowing well, A&P.
2) When trying to cross the A&P, it is ok to focus on the energy movement, the impermanence of each little pulse, the tensions where they are blocked (suffering), that the energy moves on its own (emptiness), as in the 3rd and 4th insight stages, there is a lot of overlap between more energy-focused work and vipassana, and both lead to basically the same thing at that level.
3) Focusing on energy work at the later stages is harder, as in Dissolution that follows the A&P, nearly all the vibratory/chi/chakra/channel/whatnot will not be easily perceived, and this can cause frustration to the person who had good success with a more energy-focused approach in the early stages (where it works well), and thought it would work well later, which it doesn't. There are those who level this basic point at the Goenka tradition and say it is why it is very good at getting people to cross the A&P and not so good for those who which to cross the Dark Night.
4) In the later Dark Night, the vibrations tend to be wide, feel dispersed, are peripheral, feel too complex, too irritating for most people to have any sense of success from standard energy-movement, blockage clearing approaches, as the deeper one goes, the worse it tends to get. However, staying at a level of things vibrating, however they vibrate, and regardless of whether or not it feels good or right, can be the subtle shift that makes it work out well, and makes the subtle shift from a more energy-clearing approach to a pure vipassana approach. I got very far in my early practice because I could just stay with things vibrating, however they vibrated and however much it sucked, and it allowed me to make rapid progress in insight.
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 5:20 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 5:20 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Thanks Daniel, I understand what you're saying and I see the difference.
I think my question about facilitating the energy to attain awakening was in my mind on the background of a broader question. While the maps are meant to give us a perspective and to assure the meditator, I was thinking of understanding the mechanism of enlightment, i.e. what causes what. For example: observing with equanimity causes relaxation. Relaxing allows the energy to flow. Energy flowing causes...?
We can dig deeper in the cause and effect investigation, why observing with equanimity causes relaxation, and why relaxing allows the energy to flow and so on.
I understand that this is not vipassana which is about seeing things as they are. But maybe investigating why vipassana works will allow us to develop enlightment technology, i.e. less effort/time and more results.
I might be totally off the mark here. Feel free to laugh and I’ll laugh with you.
I think my question about facilitating the energy to attain awakening was in my mind on the background of a broader question. While the maps are meant to give us a perspective and to assure the meditator, I was thinking of understanding the mechanism of enlightment, i.e. what causes what. For example: observing with equanimity causes relaxation. Relaxing allows the energy to flow. Energy flowing causes...?
We can dig deeper in the cause and effect investigation, why observing with equanimity causes relaxation, and why relaxing allows the energy to flow and so on.
I understand that this is not vipassana which is about seeing things as they are. But maybe investigating why vipassana works will allow us to develop enlightment technology, i.e. less effort/time and more results.
I might be totally off the mark here. Feel free to laugh and I’ll laugh with you.
tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:08 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:08 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
actually i would question the assumption that observing with equanimity causes relaxation. although i understand where you're coming from, consider that the 3rd nana and the dark night in general are arrived at via the progress of insight which is advanced by, among other things, observing with equanimity, and consider how neither of those stages/stage sequences are associated with much relaxation at all.
i think it would be more accurate to say observing with equanimity causes change, or even better, observing with equanimity 'causes' one to notice that change is occurring, though the noticing of which could be argued to be causing change of some sort as well when compared to the prior not-noticing.
as for what energy flowing causes, i would say it causes a bunch of different things. it can cause good health. it can cause mood swings. it can cause raptures. it can cause (eventually) indifference. im not much for investigating the specifics of it (proximate cause, near cause, etc, all that jazz terminology you run into sometimes if you read enough buddhist commentary stuff), but for insight purposes, i would say that it's good enough to say it causes change. i think that understanding alone can probably carry one to the very end.
please let me know if you found that helpful,
tarin
i think it would be more accurate to say observing with equanimity causes change, or even better, observing with equanimity 'causes' one to notice that change is occurring, though the noticing of which could be argued to be causing change of some sort as well when compared to the prior not-noticing.
as for what energy flowing causes, i would say it causes a bunch of different things. it can cause good health. it can cause mood swings. it can cause raptures. it can cause (eventually) indifference. im not much for investigating the specifics of it (proximate cause, near cause, etc, all that jazz terminology you run into sometimes if you read enough buddhist commentary stuff), but for insight purposes, i would say that it's good enough to say it causes change. i think that understanding alone can probably carry one to the very end.
please let me know if you found that helpful,
tarin
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:25 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:25 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
I'm not sure if I'm right in my assumption either. But this is not my point; I was just giving an example to illustrate what I mean by cause and effect in this context.
I'm not questioning if vipassana (insight) meditation will carry us to the end or not. Now that we know it works, let's dismantle it and see how it works. May be we can invent something similar or better to do the same job.
I'm not questioning if vipassana (insight) meditation will carry us to the end or not. Now that we know it works, let's dismantle it and see how it works. May be we can invent something similar or better to do the same job.
tarin greco, modified 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:43 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:43 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
yeah i caught that you're not asking in order to practice vipassana, but after doing my best to answer your question, i purposefully redirected the topic back that way because if you really want to figure out energy stuff, or any other specifics, you should probably aim at getting path. once you do, you will be completely locked into it, effortlessly, and it will be much easier to figure out the specifics and review the insights. to make an analogy, im not sure someone who hasnt yet made nor eaten a loaf of bread is gonna be able to do much toward creating new recipes. make sense?
Amr El-Nowehy, modified 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:54 AM
Created 15 Years ago at 6/9/09 7:54 AM
RE: energy/qi/chi and vipassana and enlightment
Posts: 25 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Yes, makes sense. I already have enough on my plate to worry about.
This was just an idea for those arahats out there to think about instead of just sitting there enjoying their enlightment.
This was just an idea for those arahats out there to think about instead of just sitting there enjoying their enlightment.