2nd edit.. just wanted to say what is written here is my own story.. i dont really know how it relates to anything else being discussed on this forum, but hopefully it can help anyone who mayb have fallen into a similar state i did.

edited post for clarities sake as this settles.. to all those people going round with a lonely unfeelingness, which is rationalised as correct and ok, you can get out of this state. its lonely despair and requires you deep powers of questioing it rather than submitting to it, i know it feels compelling, but that is what is holding you back. its a temporary state. for all those not experiencing a state of meaninglessness, then thats great, get out in the garden or something and enjoy things.

i questioned 'AF', i feared it somehow becuase it made me lose the idea of the bedrock of the meditative path and it unsettled me, i experinced depersonalisation. (existensial meaninglessness), i got delusions of its correctness and decided i knew it all (haha) and engaged in the self perpetuating argument. then i reasoned with it. then i felt relatively normal and just happy to be out. then i worked through things gradually and things came to me, little messages of logic and sense all around me,

it is simply awareness (you) viewing emptyness (space), the space we live in, and being scared by the lonely feeling, which rationilises its self as ok.,.(perfectly neutral and feelingless) . it can be put into a larger context by realising yourself that that empty fear is just your own anxiety about it, a little pschological trap near the end of a line of looking for answers not in the present

anyone who is really lost in this, please please see through it, have the faith. keep onto your concepts of real love. this is the thing that will see it through, it is overpowered by your own love and banished as a temporary but not so nice delusion.

Hey Matthew,
Interesting post.

I just watched Alice in Wonderland, and actually I thought it was a little bit boring and contrived. It seemed like Johnny Depp's character was a lot like another Edward Scisorhands or repeat of any other Depp character where he has lots of white makeup on his face. And, the ending was so cheesy how Alice just right away goes to business on some crazy scheme to expand the business into China (spoiler alert). I mean, really, business doesn't work like that in my experience. I really like the 70s porn version of Alice, that one is funny (don't know if you were aware that one exists). I think the Lewis Carrol book is the best version however - An amazing author. If you haven't read it yet.

I hope all is well for you, you sound like maybe a little stirred up over this or something. yeah?

Daniel J.

hi daniel, you might notice i edited my post just to tone down some of it to make it appear more clear and a little less sensational. it maintains the same thing though,

as long as you still got pleasure its all cool, as long as you can enjoy the book thats just brilliant. you dont need to be hanging out in these parts.

The book is the original real deal. the new film is pretty inauthentic and hollywoodish at surface level, but the key points of the things i talk about are in there. im not trying to make a cult thing out of the film, it isnt a unique secret holder. its just follows certain topic that can help people out, who might be in a bad way. there is no use like i first suggested to watch until it makes sense, or even to watch it at all. that was a bit stupid . if sense is to be made, it will come from lots of angles. its cool you watched it and made whatever you did of it.

dont seek it.

just be happy whatever you are doing.

Something similar happened here also. I got particularly apprehensive and scared that I was accidentally working towards AF without meaning to, because the clarity of the senses has become very pronounced, as if a whole layer of filters has been removed (which is nice, actually, but which I didn't know could result in having one's affective faculty pulled out).

The only relief I find for the lonely despair thing so far is when I (accidentally at first) engaged in some sort of AF practice, as when I look around and see that everything is in fact gorgeous, I am lead into a sort of peaceful wonder, and that helps me make it through the day. And I have to admit, such a practice does enclose its own very powerful logic, and it exerts a tremendous pull (towards what I would guess is utter self-dissolution into the world).

However some of what you vaguely described, particularly a lonely despair, which is also a sort of unfeelingness, could be what I seem to be going through, as it seems like a good name for the overall tone of this part of the path. It is as if one is hurt that things turned out to be the way they are, or appear to be, but does indeed rationalize repeatedly that it is simply the way it is, without even seeing an alternative since the logic sustains itself fairly well (even in real time), a certain "I've stopped believing santa claus" (but it was soo nice!) sort of mood. However, I can get out in the garden and enjoy things, since at least the flowers are, indeed, very pretty, and that brings genuine comfort, so maybe we are talking about different things?

Please be more thorough. If you want, we can talk through skype, my skype name is bruno.loff .

Something interesting about the way you write, Matthew. I also love the way Carroll writes. His words will shut down your internal dialogue and speak directly to your inner self. It's so skillful, like a koan.

Contrast this to the way AF-Richard speaks (and I mean AFers no disrespect). His website is a huge sticky morass of words, words, words. It's like a robot has been programmed with the Oxford Dictionary and was asked to explain itself in as many words as possible. It's like intellectual quick sand, the more you struggle with it, the more you get sucked in, the more activated your internal dialogue. I see no beauty in it, no gentleness, no peace. I see it as being a very unskillful way of writing, even if the message is good.

Seeing as how this is now settling, I guess I was correct in assuming that things had been stirred up. It still sounds perhaps a little stirred up with phrases like "please, please..." which I think would constitute a type of pleading with the reader. Personally, I'm just curious what might have you stirred up to the point of pleading. What is at stake here? Specifically, what is at stake for you?

Overall, it's still unclear to me what exactly you're talking about, but since you now addressed it to "all those people going round with a lonely unfeelingness," I suppose I'm not currently your target audience anyway.

Anyway, thanks for you comments.

Take care,

- Daniel

hi daniel. yes you right in percieving things are kind of settling in for me.

overall if its unclear what i am talking about, thats a good thing. my pleading is toward anyone who has fallen into the feelingless state, and desire to help any of those who might question it, so yes it isnt addressed at you. this is probably all quite enjoyable itellectual stuff for yor, thats fun. whats at stake? well for those who fall into the trap, endless meaningless vs truth and beauty. but thats only important if you feel the meaninglessness to the core. you are essetially a good guy just interested in the world and spectrum of things. its mnot gonna make too much sense if you havent fallen into any strong states to do with what people are calling AF. (pure existential meaniglessness, 'the filth' and not the truth of things)

yes, spot on, (though the message is not good, it masks itself as good) the AF state is a feedback loop of meaninglessness that holds you in and compels you to rationalize it as ok. a projected world view of meaningless looking in the mirror. it is simply not true, in the same way your reflection isnt you. life is full of love when the mirror is removed.

sounds like you are in it bruno. youll see through it, and let in a world of true joy and meaning. ive contacted you by skype..

So, I''m also right in perceiving that they weren't settled and still aren't fully settled?



I figured you might say something like that, which is why I asked what's at stake for you? And mostly I'm asking because it sounds like things got really stirred up for you. It sounds like you had a very pronounced unpleasant experience which you are calling "existential meaninglessness." And reading your posts further, it sounds as though you came to the conclusion that this state is a "trap" that you or others might fall into. And, it seems as though this experience has stirred up a lot of emotions for you which have led you into something of a "crusade" (if I may call it that).

Basically, I read your posts and I'm just curious what's going on for you... really. And not just an intellectual curiosity either - I'm curious because I care. But, of course you're under no obligation to tell me or any of us. Perhaps as things settle more for you, it will become more clear.

Anyway, take care. Enjoy yourself.

- Daniel

Matthew, is Love painful at all?

And is there anything at all in this universe that is repulsive?

no offense to anyone, but this thread sounds pretty cool, like a real sci-fi movie or twilight zone episode , or, this thing would make a good movie, visualizing the poster right now, maybe it would be a fun 'dharma art practice' project