Meditating vs Thinking

Jeff Ratner, modified 13 Years ago at 9/6/10 6:13 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 9/6/10 6:13 PM

Meditating vs Thinking

Posts: 5 Join Date: 9/6/10 Recent Posts
Your opinions please - when a college student is trying to penetrate and deeply understand, for example calculus or physics, they may spend time reading, studying, etc. A student may have to battle their wandering mind and at some point keep focus and by thinking begin to just grasp, then grasp more and more until they understand, then more and more until they get closer and closer to fully understanding.

What is the difference between a student studying then grasping calculus or physics and a student studying then grasping the Four Noble Truths or other key Buddhist concepts? Can someone who is not skilled at meditating but is skilled at keeping focus on a subject, thinking through and truly understanding get to the same place as a skilled meditator?

Or would you say that type of thinking is meditating?
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triple think, modified 13 Years ago at 9/7/10 11:15 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 9/7/10 11:07 AM

RE: Meditating vs Thinking

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Jeff Ratner:
What is the difference between a student studying then grasping calculus or physics and a student studying then grasping the Four Noble Truths or other key Buddhist concepts?
There is largely no difference as in both cases the mind is conceiving of and grasping at conceptual thoughts.

Jeff Ratner:
Can someone who is not skilled at meditating but is skilled at keeping focus on a subject, thinking through and truly understanding get to the same place as a skilled meditator?
No, as it is not the same kind of understanding. In all forms meditation with the aim of developing direct knowledge, insight and understanding into all phenomena as it actually is the preliminary step is always to bring the all efforts of conceiving and maintaining conceptions to a halt. Steadiness of perception can either be achieved by remaining steadily with one form of conception or by abandoning conception. In steadying perception on one conception or perception there is no diversity of perceptions which can be observed. It is by observing the natural diversity of perceptions without any accompanying conceptions that is the cause for direct knowledge, insights and understanding to arise and develop.

To understand the Dhamma in the manner the Buddha intended for it to be understood one proceeds by initially limiting to some degree the proliferation of conceptions and one then examines perceptions just as they are arising and passing by means of discernment including any remaining conceptions. As a result of insight meditation like this direct knowledge unmodified by proliferation of conceptualizations can accumulate. As a result of the accumulation of direct knowledge and sufficient degrees of insight into this knowledge types of liberating understanding arise which are not at all the same as conceptual understanding, which is not similarly liberating. Liberating in what sense? Liberating in terms of liberation from self delusion and liberation from craving, aversion and clinging in regards to the compounded mentality and materiality of being and becoming. As such, conceptual understanding of the Dhamma, although it may be correct understanding, can not suffice to serve as the cause for liberating understanding of the Dhamma.
J Adam G, modified 13 Years ago at 9/13/10 4:19 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 9/13/10 4:19 PM

RE: Meditating vs Thinking

Posts: 286 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
In order to have really effective meditation, the mind needs to become significantly calmer than for studying concept-intensive subjects. The mind takes hold of calculus and physics problems in a different fashion than it should for a meditation object, whether it's insight or concentration meditation.

Concentration, as in "concentration meditation," is not the same thing as "concentrating on a lecture/book/problem." In meditation, the aim is to become so calm and tranquil that the mind stays with the object because it isn't being strongly pulled toward anything else. In studying, the aim is for the mind to be quick and flexible so that you can regulate what's in the working memory -- recalling what you need to recall, retaining that stuff in the memory, discarding things that are not useful, doing the right stuff with whatever is being held in the memory, and being able to easily change gears when necessary. Samadhi isn't generally like this. The focus is on tranquility and stillness.

Insight meditation can involve more objects and more activity, but still, it doesn't help to "hold on" to anything for a very long time. The idea is to keep noticing the true nature of sense impressions as they come, in real time. You might be switching gears on the fly if you're going from sense door to sense door, but the only thing to retain is the sense of how things really are -- specifics of the sense inputs are unimportant.

At least, that's my experience. I have ADHD, so maybe people shouldn't listen to my advice on attention. Or maybe through having to struggle with my own attention at times, I learned a lot about it. Take your pick.
Jack Hatfield, modified 11 Years ago at 7/20/12 6:00 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/20/12 5:59 AM

RE: Meditating vs Thinking

Posts: 98 Join Date: 7/5/10 Recent Posts
triple think:
Jeff Ratner:
What is the difference between a student studying then grasping calculus or physics and a student studying then grasping the Four Noble Truths or other key Buddhist concepts?
There is largely no difference as in both cases the mind is conceiving of and grasping at conceptual thoughts.
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Right, there is no difference in the studying of both. However, I believe the Four Noble Truths, to use one example, are to be proven by seeing them in action not just studied conceptually. The Buddha said his teaching should be: 1. Understood conceptually. 2. Practiced. 3. Practiced enough so they become part of you. You then don't have to think about them. There is no longer just a conceptual understanding or any grasping.

jack