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Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment

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Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment

I haven't been able to get my user account activated at awakenetwork so I'm copying the OP from a thread there, entitled Lets get clear about Final Awakening. I recommend reading through the thread. I'd appreciate if someone active at awakenetwork could post this thread, to the thread there. Thanks.

Anthony Yeshe quoted with >, my comments with -.

>Lets get clear about final awakening. Lets make this a collective approach and pull no punches. For those who had an initial awakening, what to do next? To use Adyashanti's lingo, you are indeed enlightened after your initial awakening where the aperture opens up, but then it
closes again and ego fights back
. Then you have a (~10 years of it by a few reports) post-awakening period where you are now changed
forever but not quite fully done.

- To be exact: Initial awakening is an opening of aperture. That is a very fitting description. However, if awakening is legit, it does not close again. This is not a correct way to understand it which I think reflects insufficient view on the whole project. The thing is that just one or even several awakenings are not enough. The number of awakenings doesn't really matter but it seems to me that few really have a complete picture of the path, from beginning to end. Suggested reading: What's Next? On Post-Awakening Practice

>Post-initial awakening is all about getting that damn aperture to stay open. This means that we are working towards an abiding state of awakening. There is not much information about this phase. I don't accept that it is because it is highly individualized or mysterious. I purpose
here that we attempt to develop it anyways. Lets shed light on all the dark spots that we can and see what we come up with.

- I don't accept it either. It is only logical that if it is possible to have one awakening, it should be possible to attain perfect enlightenment, and if it is possible, let's go for it! However, between initial opening and perfect enlightenment (buddhahood, anuttara samyak sambodhi) there's a lot of things to consider. Nevertheless, none of it is rocket science, imo.

>For the first part of this process I suggest we state our current assumptions, goals, and definitions for all to critique. In this, I hope we get a baseline on where we are at, where we are trying to go, and are we all experiencing the same truth? This will have to be a non-religious (sorry buddha, but you dont own enlightenment) and non-traditional approach. Enlightenment theory is obviously very contended and hotly discussed (many practices, teachers, methods, sudden vs developmental, etc.) but my main objective here is to maybe find out what we all have in common. What is the lowest common denominator in all of this? Perhaps getting clear about some aspects of this path will be helpful for us to make progress again.

- I really recommond reading my book above to answer many of these questions.

>Here are some questions to start:
1) Where are you at currently and honestly tell us where your end goal is. Do you believe there is an end goal (It depends how you approach this philosophically).
2) Defend/explain your experience(s) of awakening. What is it like for you not being in this state 24/7 once having experienced it at least once? How do you know it was the real deal? This is dangerous but it can be helpful to compare notes.
3) What is your definition as final awakening/enlightenment/done? How do we get there? Who has this info sufficiently spelled out?

-1) Knowing awareness is my default mode of being but I'm still working on neutralising some subtle layers of substrate mind. I don't feel like being more specific than that on an open forum. Perfect wakefulness is my goal and I know that it is possible in this life. By saying this, I'm not special in any way. In our sangha we have a group of people at, let's say mature stage, where they have familiarised nature of mind and are in the process of integrating it completely. This has been achieved by numerous practitioners of history before.

- 2) Sudden and gradual ways of awakening are discussed. I've had 16 awakenings, major shifts, and a number of gradual awakenings. You can find my account, written quite recently from the linked book, page 51. I have also given instructions how dynamic concentration can be used to effect consecutive awakenings.

- 3) To be perfectly enlightened means to be perfectly awake, being in a state of pristine purity. What this purity is, didn't really dawn on me until a year ago, when my mind was at a full halt for an hour. By then I had had over 20 shifts (that didn't regress). Then I understood what ”pristine purity of emptiness” is.

- How do we get there? The self-based mind is like a Russian doll (analogy mentioned in the book too). Pre-awakening you are enclosed
as the smallest doll, inside the rest of them. Culturally, practitioners don't have but a few major shifts at tops so they are still somewhere there inside the biggest doll (layer of self-based mind). So, we have to know exactly where we are in terms of start and finish. Then we have to know a way to crack the nut, for doing that enables us to come to a stage where we no longer need to worry about finding knowing awareness anymore.

Kim

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/24/19 1:09 PM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Is this enlightenment though?

People (namely those who have not attained fully integrated self realization, but have rather, realized Self, that is, they know they are Awareness but they still function within the graspy of the Ego; the Imposter; the "I am a body" thoughts) say that when you become fully Self realized, that is, living from the Self as Pure Awareness; you therefore become "Enlightened".

I am somewhere in between the stage of realization of Self and Self Realization, I would say around 80% integrated if I really had to put a number down. Yet I don't think when it becomes 100% and the "I" ego is gone, or put in it's box, or whatever (I cannot speak of the experience as I am not there yet) I don't think that is full enlightenment.

We have 7 bodies, the karmic body for example. Whilst we are operating as Pure Awareness from the physical body, what about the other 6 bodies? It feels to me like we need to purify them before we can be true Self (Enlightenment).

For example if you look at pictures of enlightened humans you see they all have a light body behind them, from Jesus to the Buddha to other beings, to dieties such as Shiva. Light body represents the etheric body, right? So it makes sense, to me anyway, that some energy work is required to create a light body, that it doesn't just happen when you are experiencing "reality" as Pure Awareness.

It also makes sense to me that your karmic body carries, well, your karma that you have accumulated not only in this lifetime but also other lifetimes, and the only way to "Perfect Enlightenment" would be to purge your karmic body.

In fact Perfect Enlightenment sounds a lot like Nirguna Brahman. Which is formless. So you cannot be Nirguna as a body, because a body is of form..therefore the highest attainment as a body is Saguna Brahman, surely?

I think you can get to Saguna and then when the body dies you go back to Consciousness and stay there in your expression of Consciousness but as perfect enlightened consciousness - nirguna brahman. This would explain why for example, Gary Weber, who did Self Enquiry to get to the stage of Pure Awareness; he found he could not drop the subtle ego and he asked a dead Ramana to do it, and said he felt the presence of Ramana moreso than reality, and that he had never met him. Ramana in his dead form would be Nirguna Brahman; perfect enlightenment with no form.

I don't think the mind can understand perfect enlightenment in the same way that the mind cannot understand Awareness / Consciousness. The mind tries to label it as "nothingness" or "everything" because the mind is of form and so only understands that which is of form; it cannot understand a formless something so it says it does not exist.

Sorry for the essay :/

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/24/19 11:04 PM as a reply to John R.
John R:
Is this enlightenment though?

People (namely those who have not attained fully integrated self realization, but have rather, realized Self, that is, they know they are Awareness but they still function within the graspy of the Ego; the Imposter; the "I am a body" thoughts) say that when you become fully Self realized, that is, living from the Self as Pure Awareness; you therefore become "Enlightened".

I am somewhere in between the stage of realization of Self and Self Realization, I would say around 80% integrated if I really had to put a number down. Yet I don't think when it becomes 100% and the "I" ego is gone, or put in it's box, or whatever (I cannot speak of the experience as I am not there yet) I don't think that is full enlightenment.

Hi, Do check out: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 6:14 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:
John R:
Is this enlightenment though?

People (namely those who have not attained fully integrated self realization, but have rather, realized Self, that is, they know they are Awareness but they still function within the graspy of the Ego; the Imposter; the "I am a body" thoughts) say that when you become fully Self realized, that is, living from the Self as Pure Awareness; you therefore become "Enlightened".

I am somewhere in between the stage of realization of Self and Self Realization, I would say around 80% integrated if I really had to put a number down. Yet I don't think when it becomes 100% and the "I" ego is gone, or put in it's box, or whatever (I cannot speak of the experience as I am not there yet) I don't think that is full enlightenment.

Hi, Do check out: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment


Thank you.

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 9:32 AM as a reply to Kim Katami.
Kim, did you get Anthony's permission to post his comments here? Personally, if someone took my comments made on a closed forum and posted them to be discussed on a different public forum without asking first I would not be happy about it. 

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 9:54 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:
Kim, did you get Anthony's permission to post his comments here? Personally, if someone took my comments made on a closed forum and posted them to be discussed on a different public forum without asking first I would not be happy about it. 

Really? They're publicly visible at that link - I generally don't think you need someone's permission to quote their publicly visible comments.

Especially in this case, since his comments were asking survey-type questions and Kim didn't even post Anthony's answers.

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 10:52 AM as a reply to J C.
Maybe I'm weird, but yeah I would personally find it discourteous. Of course anything publicly visible on the internet is technically fair game, but if it were my thread I'd probably be thinking something along the lines of, "If I'd wanted to start that discussion on the DhO, I would have done it myself." AN and the DhO are very different venues for conversation. 

But again, maybe I'm weird. Who knows?

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 10:57 AM as a reply to Andromeda.
Andromeda:
Maybe I'm weird, but yeah I would personally find it discourteous. Of course anything publicly visible on the internet is technically fair game, but if it were my thread I'd probably be thinking something along the lines of, "If I'd wanted to start that discussion on the DhO, I would have done it myself." AN and the DhO are very different venues for conversation. 

But again, maybe I'm weird. Who knows?

If it had been your post and someone wanted to ask similar questions here, would you have preferred they just paraphrase those questions without attribution?

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 11:31 AM as a reply to J C.
My preference in this case would have been a polite, "Hey, do you mind if I move this discussion over to the DhO?" That would give me the option of saying, "No, leave me out of that, but go ahead and paraphrase without attribution if you like."

But again, maybe it's just me and I might be old fashioned. 

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 12:14 PM as a reply to Andromeda.
I agree with Andromeda - it's just polite to ask a poster on another message board if they will allow you to use their words here. It's the correct, honest and noble thing to do, and it allows the other person to have a say. Those are their words, after all.

Chris Marti
Dho Moderator

RE: Lets Get Clear About Perfect Enlightenment
Answer
1/25/19 12:35 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
I agree with Andromeda, too, and I’m glad it was brought up. Not knowing made me uncomfortable. I wouldn’t want people to discuss my comments behind my back, even if it was as harmless comments as in this case. I have been bullied for so many years as a child and young adult (because I’m weird too, hehe), and it has taken its toll. This is public forum so it isn’t hidden, but if one doesn’t know about the discussion, it’s still technically behind one’s back. Even if one notices it, one may not have wanted the discussion. I’m sure he would appreciate to be asked if he hasn’t been already.