I begin this post because I seen there was another thread about Bhante Vimalaramsi. ( BV )

I wish to talk about my personal experience of BV, perhaps I am worrying about nothing but after contemplating this issue I dont think I am worrying about nothing.

I am concerned for the welfare of vulnerable people who may go to BV for spiritual guidance.

I was a monk for 2 years in Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore. For most of those 2 years BV and I were close friends.

We lived in various temples together. There was a little gang of Western monks who practised together. BV was on the outskirts of our little free lance group. I even attended some of his meditation retreats he led in Malaysia after he returned from Burma.

Why I am concerned about the welfare of vulnerable people who may look to BV for spiritual guidance is that over the years on various serious topics I have witnessed fist hand BV radically change his story about his meditation experiences and alleged attainments.

I have challenged BV about his various contradictory stories he used and uses now about what happened to him in Burma. His response to my first challenge was to say that when he first arrived back in Thailand-Malaysia after Burma he was confused about what had happened to him so the things he said may not have been very accurate.

Of course his story sounds feasible until I say that I talked to a Korean monk who was in the same temple as BV in Burma and that the Korean monk alleges BV hardly done any meditation at all in Burma.

Of course Korean monks often are hard core meditators, especially the ones who visit Theravada countries, ( I met a few of them in Thailand ) and perhaps his standard of " hardly done any meditation" may mean that BV only done 15 hours daily?

So perhaps BV really did do lots of meditation?

BV swore me to secrecy but he told me the angels/devas visit him in his meditation and have informed him that what he is teaching is identical to what Buddha taught.

Does BV swear many of his students to secrecy?

Has he told many other people they must keep his secret meditation attainments confidential?

And in the meantime of course his confidant students are V V E E R R Y Y loyal to him.

Knowing BV for some years and having seen him change his story about his attainments and also witnessing what looked like a compulsion to be revered it is my feeling that BV is a disqualified monk.

In my view, judging by the monks four parajika vinaya rules he is disqualified as he has broken one of the rules of disqualification.

In my view if you listen to what BV says on Youtube he has many extreme views e.g. he says all babies who are born dead or die very early were butchers in their last lives and they died as a result of their negative kamma-vipaka.

In my view we all have opinions and we are entitled to them, but BV does not say it is his opinion that children who die young were nasty butchers etc. He says the children were butchers e.g. he knows first hand their karminc conditioning.

Considering my personal experience of BV over the years I am very concerned that he may damage vulnerable people.

Shendy.

Dude that is one typical case of a guy who believed what the depths of his fear-full (or bliss-full) mind wanted to believe. If only he had known that it was possible to fall into such delusions as a result of meditation practice, maybe he wouldn't have.

I have myself during practice come across such whisperings. I had a few months of my first-path A&P during which it felt I understood "The Truth," which is something like "the whole universe is a permanent act of lovemaking between shiva and shakti," or something to that effect. I have some embarrassing posts here on DhO juggling with a slightly less lavish version of the ideas I had at that time, I won't bother to point it out (and I will feel really silly if you do Daniel and Tarin).

Looking in retrospect, it seems very foolish, and I can clearly see that the core of "knowing The Truth," was simply feeling that way (in this case, feeling that life was a constant act of lovemaking), without any objective content or thesis at all. I can easily imagine me getting stuck into such a delusion if I didn't have enough critical thinking to backtrack why and how I came to those beliefs.

The ensuing dark night helped a lot also . However, during my first dark night, I also came to the conclusion that life was pointless and worthless, and that other people didn't see that because of being idiots. Now every time I walk in the park I can clearly see who was the idiot then

Rapture and pain can both feel like understanding. But every "conceptual construction" which derives from such "understanding" is usually incredibly biased! And in fact, the act of delusion can easily be changed into an act of understanding by only a slight change of perspective: it is clear that BV clearly "feels as if" angels/devas visit him in his meditation and have informed him that what he is teaching is identical to what Buddha taught, and if he could see it that way (instead of buying into the content), he would have a great insight into the tricky nature of belief and his own mind. Instead, he has become a poor silly, lost dude, liable to drag others into the same shit-hole.

Anyone else here has stories of silly stuff they came to believe because of their practice?

Bruno.

I love your response.

It made me laugh so much.

I take my hat off to you.

Shendy.

When I first started reading your post I thought you were going to say BV was a child molester or a mass murderer. So you've heard from someone else that maybe he didn't practice as much as he claims to and he speaks openly about attainments. I'm relieved!

As to his violation of the vinaya, I am guessing that you mean #4 "Boasting that one has realised a high spiritual attainment, knowing that one is lying" (my emphasis).

Not being a mind reader, I have no idea what attainments he has attained nor do I know if he was boasting about them - keep in mind that you are on a site dedicated to creating a space where people can speak openly about practices and attainments.

BV makes some odd statements at times - can't argue with that. But if we don't allow quirky teachers then there will be no place for me. Generally, I find BVs teaching a hands on - you can do it and this is how I did it - approach. You say you have taken some retreats with him. I am curious what your experience with the practices were. For those unfamiliar with him he teaches the jhanas as a cultivation of tranquillity, happiness, and insight using the Suttas as a guide. Is there something in his approach that you feel is in error?

-Chuck

Hi Bruno,
Do hell realms and past lives qualify as silly?

You believe they exist anywhere beyond your (meditation induced super-powered) imagination? And if so, why? And if you have a reason, can you give experimental evidence? Such as "writing a note" in this hell realm, and getting another equally skilled meditator to read it?

I guess the answer is yes :-) Well, best of luck to you Bruno.

My experience using Bhante Vimalaramsis Brahamaviharas method is very good I had more progress in a short period of time than in my long years opf meditation practice, he is the guy to follow if you want off the wheel of samsara no doubt to me. Bear in mind that his is a hands on practial approach, not an intelectual one, this means that the eighfold path for example would be expresed in a different way, harmonious insted of right for example and harmonious action to be explained as the 6Rs.

with Metta
dhammarelax

The Dhammapada states:


While i am not labelling BV a 'fool', he has obviously been studying the suttas for most of his life & gives the impression of not understanding the instruction in them so when he makes a valid breakthrough he claims he discovered some unique method.

BV is instucting some meditation method of 'relaxation' claiming he has made a breakthrough although liberally interpretating the scriptures (step 4 anapanasati) in an attempt to justify his method.

BV is correct when teaching 'relaxation' as a method to practise meditation. In other words, there is no need to make any deliberated act of will so the mind can unite with & develop insight by experiencing breathing. However, the Lord Buddha expressed it properly in the following ways:


If the mind had not yet discerned the path is one of letting go by abandoning craving, attachment & ego becoming (rather than 'relaxing') then it has not discerned the Buddha-Dhamma.

Otherwise, the mind will ignorantly believe: "I am relaxing", "I have attained jhana", "I am a stream enterer", "I have attained the cessation of perception & feeling", "I am enlightened", "BV is a person or being (satta)", etc.

If we read the scriptures, when the Arahants, such as Sariputta, entered jhana or some higher attainment, the thought never occurred to their mind that "I am" entering, abiding in or emerging from jhana. Instead, their mind was free from I-making & my-making.

What BV calls 'relaxing' is properly called 'abandoning craving' or 'abiding in emptiness (of 'self').

Keep in mind, the scriptures state a mind with right view can only honor one teacher (namely, the Lord Buddha).

Hi friends

Using the word relax instead of abandoning craving it seems to be a more practical approach that answers the question of how to abandon craving, maybe there is a better way of expressing the duty in regards to the second noble truth but I am not aware of it, do you agree that craving manifests as tension in the body? If yes then to relax it seems to be the way to letting it go.

If craving does not manifest as tension then relaxing is not the way to let it go so maybe this is the quid of the question, what do you think that craving is and how does it manifest?

with Metta
drammarelax

There's superficial tension and deep/core tension. The first can be tackled with relaxation, using the senses as a guide. The second one isn't that easy... For example, try this: lying in bed, do some breathing and try to relax in the out-breath (or if you prefer relax in the in-breath too); after the out-breath you'll notice that there's still a non-specific tension deep in the body. My view is that the deeper tension needs not only relaxation but some change in behavior/emotional patterns, that's why "letting go" seems more inclusive.

 

I tried it and I think you are right, my first instict is to say that the remanng tension has to be taken care by the jhanas.

I would say there are three modes of meditation on the continuum of skill: (i) exertion; (ii) non-doing (relaxing); & (iii) releasing or liberating.

The art of 'letting go' is more than just non-doing or relaxing. The adept practitioner can actually practise releasing or opening the mind, which is is 'letting go'.

Hi Nicky

All three come together in the practice, the duties for the noble truths are: to comprehend the first one, to abandon the second one, to realize the third one and to develop the fourth one.

Taking one noble truth and teaching only that one does not lead to the same results, eg teachers that only teach let go, let it be, jut be a witness, just exercise choiceless awareness, etc.Teaching only comprehension eg suffering is not self or philosophicals appoarches to suffering like destiny. Teaching only to enjoy life and to avoid suffering, teaching only morality, teaching only concentration (jhanas) etc.

Some of this variable can be even found today so we need great care when selecting the teacher and the teachings we follow. The 6rs that Bhatnte Vimalaramsi teaches include all this:

1.- Recognise means we understand what suffering is eg the hindrances
2.- Release means we let go
3.- Relax means we are eliminating the craving the cause of suffering
4.- Re-smile means we are realizing the end of suffering
5.- Return to our object of meditation means we get back in to jhana that is the corrolary of the noble eightfold path
6.- Repeat if we are distracted again

with Metta
dhammarelax 

1. The 4 noble truths do not state the hindrances are suffering. Instead, the 1st noble truth explains attachment (upadana) to the five aggregates is suffering. 'Attachment' is 'egoism', such as believing "I have attained jhana".

2. A mind approaching or that has reached 'jhana' is light years away from distraction. Often, students desparately attach to words (such as 'jhana') & over-estimate acheivement for the sake of ego reinforcement.

3. There are three levels of concentration described by those who genuinely know: (i) momentary concentration; (ii) neighbourhood concentration; & (iii) attainment concentration, which is jhana. The only level of concentration that has distractions is momentary concentration, which is not even path fruition.

Hi Nicky

How is the view of jhana beign miles away from distractions reconciled with MN 111, Saripputa seems to have a concentration broad enough to perceive things like contact, desition, attention, feeling, etc.

With Metta
dhammarelax

Right concentration is broad & open (rather than something narrow). The terms 'one-pointedness' or jhana do not necessarily imply something narrow. They imply non-movement towards a single pre-occupation.

What gives you the impression that the nama dhammas (mental factors) mention in MN 111 are distractions? Based in the scriptures, they are all wholesome path factors.

That said, it appears Sariputta was the most lucid of arahants. I would guess most practitioners would not discern all of these mental factors in jhana. Instead, most practitioners would only comprehend the obvious factors, such as one-pointedness (non-movement), rapture, consciousness, equinimity, etc, and mindfulness when required.

Hi Nicky

Sounds reasonable, are this things perceived by the students one by one as they ocurr or are they observed all in one?

Smile all the time
Dhammarelax