Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 11:39 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 11:39 AM

Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: msj123
Forum: The Big Issues

According to Kenneth, there are two different types of enlightenment: the enlightenment of vipassana, and the enlightenment of awareness based practices. Under this model, fruition in vipassana consists in an unknown experience in which only the before and after is remembered. Fruition in the awareness model would be recognizing the essential nature of the mind.

I do not agree with this distinction. I find that in both the personal teachings and writings of the Thai forest tradition of Ajahn Chah, the teachings of Bhante Guanratana, and Shinzen Young that there is in fact no distinction in enlightenment. I was reading Small Boat, Great Mountain in which Ajahn Amaro said that rigpa is initially realized in a state where there is no phenomenon present so that one could recognize it when phenomenon is present. Ajahn Amaro also makes the point, which I agree with, that nibbana is rigpa. This confirms with my own personal experience in which all objective and subjective phenomenon vanished, yet there was still knowing. This is confirmed as well as numerous writings in Zen, Chan, and Taoist traditions. I am finding that the fruition of before, after, but an unknown middle is idiosyncratic to the DhO. The above description would also relate to the ten fetter model that is often discarded here on DhO.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 11:39 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 11:39 AM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: msj123


I find that the DhO descriptions would also be consistent with simply falling asleep. We tend to recall right before sleep, and right after, but are often lost during the sleep state. This is not because we are unaware, but because the nature of the mind is different. Our everyday, egoistic past-present-future mind vanishes when we fall asleep and reappears upon awakening. The sleeping mind may or may not even be aware of the thoughts, memories, and personae of the waking mind. If one develops a sufficient level of sensitivity, then one can remain aware while asleep and there is no resulting gap or loss. In Atma Darshan, Sri Menon makes the point that deep sleep with awareness is the same as nirvikalpa samadhi. The same state everyone experiences, only with an additional sensitivity of awareness.

Accordingly, I wonder if the fruition described on this forum is in fact an occurrence with insufficient sensitivity, or perhaps a false one. I was wondering also if someone could provide some references to this sort of fruition.

Why does this make a difference? Because the target defines the practice. The unconditioned, to be truly unconditioned, must be available all the time, whether or not we enter into some blissful non-state.

Just my eight cents.

Matt
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 12:22 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 12:22 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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hi matt,

this sounds like a 2nd path working for 3rd path kinda issue, and i think that whatever answer or conclusion you come to, as long as your practice is being supported, you'll probably find success. as for the people who end up resonating with you, that'll probably be how much agreement there is in their terms and concepts with yours.

personally speaking, i can see where you're coming from but i see no duality/issue.

tarin
Hokai Sobol, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 12:32 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 12:32 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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There is no such thing as "DhO description" of fruition, nor a "fruition described on this forum". Instead, there are descriptions, formulations, and opinions by individuals who post here as members. Your present disagreement is now part of the "DhO description".

Please quote either the formulation itself, or the author (seems to be Kenneth Folk) and the source/page/thread.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 1:18 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 1:18 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Author: msj123

From Daniel: MCTB chapter 26: This is the fruit of all the meditator's hard work, the first attainment of ultimate reality, emptiness, Nirvana, God or whatever you wish to call it. In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else. Reality stops cold and then reappears. Thus, this is impossible to comprehend, as it goes completely and utterly beyond the rational mind and the universe. To “external time” (if someone were observing the meditator from the outside) this lasts only an instant. It is like an utter discontinuity of the space-time continuum with nothing in the unfindable gap.

From Kenneth: http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/A+Dry+Insight+Technique+for+Attaining+Path

Whether it is a Path or a Fruition, it will be experienced as a momentary loss of consciousness. This is Theravada "cessation of mind and body." Upon emerging from that moment of unconsciousness, you know that you were somewhere very nice for awhile, but you can't say where you where. Traditionally, it's said that the mind "takes nibbana as object" during cessation.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 1:22 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 1:22 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Author: msj123

Look at posts 13-14 here:
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/2993279/A+detailed+account+of+trying+to+land+first+path+on+a+3+wk+work+retreat

I believe I have heard Jackson and Trent refer to fruition this way--- but I may be wrong.
Trent S H, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 3:19 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 3:19 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Matt,

I completely agree with what Tarin says. It really boils down to what makes sense to you, so long as that promotes your forward progress.

I'm just going to quickly address a couple of things, purely of my opinion in case they help at all.

Actually noticing the moment of cessation of consciousness in the Theravada-fruition sense requires powerful concentration. It requires even more powerful concentration than that to notice one of the 3 doors to fruition, which is also a clear, unique, and distinct to the fruition event itself. Also note that Nirodha Samapatti is a complete cessation with no experience, and requires extremely fine-tuned concentration ability. There's no doubt that the world goes missing for quite a while; my record in the few times I've played with that attainment is a cessation lasting something around 10 minutes.

As for awareness during sleep, I'm not even sure if this requires meditation. I figured out how to maintain extremely low level awareness while in deep sleep years before I ever meditated, purely by accident. I wanted to sleep in the middle of hunting excursions, but needed to be able to hear anything that came within hearing distance of me. I eventually learned how to hear and discern very accurately what was walking around me (this is a squirrel, this is a deer, and so forth), even though I was simultaneously completely asleep. It really is a cool "phenomena" if you will, as I can now always hear things such as my father's foot-steps if he wanders near me while I'm asleep. I'm just not sure what the significant of such a thing is in regard to Insight. And also, this may simply be something different altogether, although it fits every description I've ever read of "awareness while sleeping."

[Edit] Note that to do the "aware while asleep" thing takes practice, and clear intent.

Best,
Trent
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 4:14 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 4:14 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Author: Adam_West

Hey Trent!

Thanks for the great reply! When you've been in this cessation "for about ten minutes", would you say there is no phenomena whatsoever (of the six consciousnesses) however, awareness continued to remain (knowing itself) - that is, pure awareness for about ten minutes? Or are you unconscious during this time, meaning you have no continuity of awareness or consciousness during this time, thus you lost time, and know this after the fact - retrospectively?

I too have had the experiences you speak of with sleep, though only occasionally. They are well documented with those who have spent time living in war environments (like the Vietnam experience etc). From my contact with other realized teachers over the years who have 24 hr uninterrupted consciousness or awareness throughout day and night (and through sleep), their accounts are a little different from what you describe. They speak of full lucidity as you have right now reading this text, and via this 'normal' awareness they witness themselves (their sixth consciousness) go through the sleep cycle of dreams and dreamless sleep, while also witnessing, as we do right now, our other sensory consciousnesses during asleep. So they hear the room, they hear themselves snoring, they perceive dreamless sleep as an absolute darkness or absence of sensory phenomena and personal identity (and the boundaries thereof) - just clear luminous formless awareness. Throughout the this process they leave their bodies and travel into the material and immaterial domains as formless awareness, and return and leave throughout the night. All this happens 'every' night without fail and does so to all of us too; however, for most of us, our personal development is such that we do not have conscious access to it in terms of continuity of consciousness. In this way we do not retain it in waking consciousness after sleep.

In kind regards,

Adam.
Trent S H, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 4:29 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 4:29 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Sup Adam,

Thanks for the distinction, good to know. Though I'm not exactly sure what I'd make of the awareness 24/hrs a day thing, since I can't say I technically feel that awareness exists at all. Let's definitely not detract the discussion with that though.

As for the cessation duration, I knew it retroactively. I had no idea that it lasted that long, because the cessation has no indication of time. You notice the moments before NS, then instantly the moments after NS, and you have no idea how long you were out. Unless, of course, you set up a timer to gently beep every 10 minutes. Because I did that, I knew I went in after about 30 minutes, and when I came out, I'd been sitting approx 45. Thus I discern I was out for around 10.

Peace,
Trent
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 5:19 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 5:19 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Adam_West

Thanks Trent for the clarification!! I love to hear of first-person experience. Description of experience. Leave interpretation of its meaning and implications for the philosophers. ;-P

As to the 24 hr awareness or consciousness. Again, I merely describe experience that have been described to me. Judgments of interpretation and implications will be left to greater men then me. ;-)

In kind regards,

Adam.

Edit: as a final note, purely on a descriptive account of what you've said, I've had this cessation phenomena many times also. Whether or not it is that which has been denoted in Theravada writing or not, I do not know. I am not enlightened (however you conceive that) nor have I realized Nibbana (however you define that), so I guess it is not the same. Looking to other writings. In contemporary interpretation of the Indian kundalini yoga traditions, similar phenomena has been reported. This winkingout phenomena is said to occur when one goes into a kind of Nirvikalpa Samadhi (or some kind of transpersonal state of consciousness), but due to lack of development of the nervious system and etheric, engergetic body systems (chakras etc) one does not bring rememberance or continuity of consciousness back into normal consciousness. Over time, through said development, such continuity of consciousness develops. This then is said to reflect in continuity of consciousness through sleep also. So here we have the same descriptive phenomena, but with two different meanings or interpretations. In the yoga traditions, there is no suggestion of permanent enlightenment or Nibbana after the winking-out phenomena (absence of phenomal-consciousness) as in Theravada. Are they the same thing? Don't know. On the face of it no, due to differences at a meta-level of explanation, but also on end results of liberation. In terms of description, they are indistinguishable. :-P
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 6:53 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 6:53 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Hey there, Matt.

What Daniel and Kenneth described in their own words is how fruition is understood in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, which is based on the Progress of Insight described in Buddhaghosa's Vissudhimagga. In Mahasi Sayadaw's words:

"The duration of realizing the cessation of formations is, however, not long. It is so short that it lasts just for an instant of noticing. Then the meditator reviews what has occurred. He knows that the cessation of the material processes noticed, and the mental processes noticing them, is the realization of path, fruit, and Nibbana." Practical Insight meditation, p. 36-37, http://bit.ly/17tXYm

The rest of that section of this book is worth reading, even if only to understand the his particular perspective on the path.
~Jackson
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triple think, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 7:41 PM
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RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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That more or less describes some of my experience with constant and near constant 'wakefulness' for extended periods of time. It is so much more 'on' than most people that it is difficult to co-exist in a lot of environments. I find I have to 'tone it down' to an extent.
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Antonio Ramírez, modified 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 8:29 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/10/09 8:29 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Though in p. 39 it goes on to say that it is possible for fruition knowledge to last longer: "But in the case of those who had made a prior resolve on its duration, the knowledge of fruition lasts longer, say the whole day or night, or as long as the time resolved, as stated in the Commentaries. Likewise, [...] in the case of those immersed in concentration and insight, fruition lasts an hour, two hours, three hours, and so on. [...]"

[Back to lurkerdom...]
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 14 Years ago at 7/11/09 5:27 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/11/09 5:27 AM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Hey Antonio. Welcome back :-D

From what I've heard from others, 'extended fruition knowledge' as spoken of here (and in the Vissudhimagga) is most likely a reference to Nirodha Samapatti. NS, being one of the higher jhanic attainments above 8th samatha jhana (I could say the highest), it requires a combination of deep concentration and penetrating insight. The commentaries say that one can resolve to stay in NS for up to seven days, though I can hardly see the practical value in that (maybe because I haven't done it).

~Jackson
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/11/09 11:29 AM
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RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Author: msj123

I think there may be a problem with translation. Consciousness as a skhanda is vijanna, in sanskrit, vijnana. Split this into it's parts, and you have vi-, which means to separate, distinguish, etc, and jnana, which is knowing. This is the same vi- in vipassana. Notice that in Advaita, they refer to jnana and jnanis. If you check out the arising of dependent origination, you will notice that vijnana arises AFTER samskaras and avidya, which would suggest there is some form of consciousness present.

I was told that vijnana is consciousness with subject and object, as opposed to pure consciousness. This means that what disappears is not all sense of awareness, but subject-object awareness. This is consistent with not only my experience, but the writings of Advaitains, Zen masters, Taoists, etc. It also makes sense of the 12 links of DO.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 14 Years ago at 7/11/09 12:06 PM
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RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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"I was told that vijnana is consciousness with subject and object, as opposed to pure consciousness. This means that what disappears is not all sense of awareness, but subject-object awareness. This is consistent with not only my experience, but the writings of Advaitains, Zen masters, Taoists, etc. It also makes sense of the 12 links of DO."-msj123

Hey Matt,

Interesting topic. There are two questions here. One is "What are the Theravada Buddhists referring to when they say "fruition"?

The second question is "Is Theravada fruition really what the Buddha meant by "Nibbana?"

The 1st question is easy: the Mahasi Buddhists, following the Vissudhimagga, are referring to cessation, which is a winking out of consciousness. There is no controversy about this as it is well documented in Theravada literature and is a reproducible phenomenon that many of the people who contribute to this board can induce at will.

The 2nd question is not so easily answered, and is frankly a matter of opinion. We know that Dzogchen fruition is not cessation, but rigpa. This is also not controversial. And rigpa is very extensively described in the Dzogchen literature as a wide-awake situation. So, one could reasonably ask which definition of fruition is the one the Buddha was encouraging us to find out about. We'll never know, as the Buddha is not here for us to ask. But it is possible to know, in our own experience, both cessation and rigpa. I like to encourage people to train in accessing both of these phenomena (or noumena).

In order to experience cessation/Nibbana-style fruition, the prescription is to balance investigation (vipassana) and concentration (samatha). In order to access rigpa, which is the direct apprehension of primordial awareness, the prescription is to rest in non-distracted non-meditation. I recommend both, but not at the same time.

Kenneth
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 3:48 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 3:48 AM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Author: msj123

Kenneth,
I do not agree that there is controversy regarding this question. The problems I have are:

1. Other teachers do not agree. The teachers I have listed above do not teach this way, but rather in line with what I have put forth.

2. This does not fit within the general Buddhist context. The ten fetters and 12 links of DO do not make sense as they do in the position set forth.

3. We are not making an allowance for the different levels of consciousness present in Indian/Buddhist thought. In English, we have only a few words. In Indian/Buddhist thought, there are many.

4. I do not think this position is necessarily even promoted by Mahasi Sayadaw. On mindfulness, he said:

Among seeing, hearing, smelling, eating, touching and thinking, while meditating on seeing there will be only passive consciousness of visual object, on hearing there will be only passive consciousness of sound, on smelling; eating and touching there will be only passive consciousness of odour, taste and touch, on thinking there will be only passive consciousness of thought. To have this kind of passive consciousness one must practise meditation continuously.

If one has only passive consciousness this is the end of all suffering (Nibbana). This is the Buddha's brief teaching to Bhikkhu Malukyaputta.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mahasib3.htm
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 3:48 AM
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RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Author: msj123

5. I find this teaching ONLY here on DhO. This may be a result from different causes:
a. These other views are wrong.
b. DhOers may be expecting to achieve a certain state, so they do. This is very common in meditation practice.
c. DhOers are not experiencing in line with the position, but are not saying so, or are in fact modifying their experience in order to conform with this position. In other words, people may feel this position is “dogma” and intentionally or unintentionally change their experiences in order to conform to this dogma. I was hesitant to even bring this up due to perceived dogma.

I am not trying to cause a row, but I believe in clarity. If I am wrong, I need to know it. If there is an incomplete view being propagated, we all need to know it. Isn’t this sort of peer review what DhO is all about?

Matt
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 4:32 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/12/09 4:32 AM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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re the teachers whose names you mention, have you checked with any of the living ones (such as bhante guanratana, shinzen young, or ajahn amaro) about the distinction you're making?

re your mahasi quote below, a mahasi-school sayadaw told me something similar (about the nibbana available in every moment). his point though, as i understood it, was not that cessation does not exist, but that it is not only in moments of total mind-and-body cessation that freedom from suffering is possible but also in this passive consciousness as well. i think following the progress of insight to its conclusion at least once, that is, to the winking out of cessation, makes both the wink out available to view, as well as the aforementioned passive consciousness much more likely to occur, and over longer durations. my own experience reflects both these points as well as what the sayadaw was saying.
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Wet Paint, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 3:29 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 3:29 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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Author: msj123

I have personally learned from teachers in these traditions. It was these teachers that led me to these ideas in the first place. These are certainly not my ideas.

Shinzen told me that cessation actually reveals the Source. Odd thing was, I had no idea what he was talking about at the time. Now I do. And Shinzen is perhaps the biggest promoter of the "one enlightenment" model mixing both Zen and vipassana.

It is said that the progress of insight in universal, across traditions and cultures. One might think, then, that it would come up in other traditions or cultures, yet I have not found this to be so. I am a big believer in triangulation-- it tends to minimize errors. It could be that these other teachings (or the views I have set forth) are wrong, and if so, this should be pointed out and discussed publicly so everyone can avoid this mistake. Simply pointing to one's own experience is not enough-- experiences may differ.
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Kenneth Folk, modified 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 7:22 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 7/13/09 7:22 PM

RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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"I do not think this position [that nibbana is "cessation"] is necessarily even promoted by Mahasi Sayadaw."-Matt

Hi Matt,

I agree with you that this is an important topic that deserves a great deal of clarification. First, I want to reassure you that neither Daniel nor I made up the nibbana-as-cessation connection. It's standard Theravada doctrine. The cessation in question is a distinct phenomenon that marks the culmination of The Progress of Insight. It can then be cultivated as an attainment and re-experienced at will. I feel qualified to talk about this, having spent the years between 1990 and 1999 training in the Mahasi tradition. For 2 years I was in intensive retreat under the daily tutelage of Buddhist masters including Sayadaw U Kundala, Sayadaw U Pandita, and Bill Hamilton. "Fruition," in the Mahasi tradition, is a translation of the Pali word "phala." It is often used in the same breath with "magga," or "Path." The standard formula "magga phala" means "Path and fruition."

You are right that there is very little straight talk about this online other than on DhO, which ironically points to how necessary DhO is. Nonetheless, here are some nuggets from *In This Very Life* by U Pandita:

"The happiness of nibbana happens upon the cessation of mind and matter" (207).
"[People] doubt that nibbana can exist...or they say, 'If nibbana is nothing, how can it be better than a beautiful experience'?" (208)

http://bit.ly/iXRPv

Check out the link, search the book for "nibbana," and see if you are convinced. Mind you, the question of whether the Mahasi vision of nibbana matches that of the Buddha is a very different question and one we can explore once we clear up this first point.

Thanks for sticking with this and insisting on an answer.

(edit: spelling)
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tarin greco, modified 14 Years ago at 7/17/09 1:38 AM
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RE: Vipassana, Rigpa, and Fruition

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'I have personally learned from teachers in these traditions. It was these teachers that led me to these ideas in the first place. These are certainly not my ideas.'

yes, but again, have you checked with any of them about the distinction you're now making?

'Shinzen told me that cessation actually reveals the Source.'

he's right, cessation does indeed reveal the Source - look to the split-second moments right before cessation occurs (and the split-second moments immediately after) to see it.. which, like i said to you in that other thread*, is why paying close attention to those particular moments is helpful for attaining the higher paths. those moments, rather than the cessation itself, is what is truly instructive in this regard.

* http://tinyurl.com/lmmoks (post 38)