This often surprises all of us, retreat or no retreat. It's not necessarily a "bad" thing, you know. It's part of the process. We have to learn to face up to what we are and how much habit and modeling we bring to our experiences. Hooray for you for getting right back in the saddle!

Great to have you back 

I'm sorry you're going through this very rough period, but I would ask you to consider that you aren't the "loser ex" at all. I'd say you've already won because this situation is helping you see the folly of what your mind is doing - trying to convince you that you can be unflappable, uber-competent and manly all the time. Think of how much energy that takes! Now you can begin to drop all that and just be human.

”Perfection” is overrated and boring, not to mention rather impossible. Being genuine, like in this post of yours, is awsome. I mean really really awsome. It shows maturity, a far too rare quality. Honestly, I used to believe that you were the kind of person you wish that you were. I am much more impressed now.

Hi Hibiscus, sorry to hear what you're going through. I too went through a really tough break up and most of what you said mirrors my experience so I thought I'd chime in. Break ups have a way of exposing up our core beliefs. As a result we tend to fix ourselves because in some way we believe we are broken. It seems you you are onto this dynamic. Regardless, you will get sucked into the drama from time to time as your motives oscillate from healthy to unhealthy as a response to the pain. Totally normal and expected. I ended up doing two years of therapy after my last break up and I'm really glad I did. I'll share what I learned. For self-esteem, the best thing you can do is surround yourself with a group of healthy, loving, empathetic friends. Second, take care of your body. Exercise and healthy food are good ways of showing yourself love. Lastly, don't make too many lifestyle changes at once. When you find yourself trying to build too many habits you can bet that ego is running the show. Realistically, you can really only build one habit at a time. Sounds like you're in new territory now so you are going to be challenged. Remember that this too will pass and that you will emerge a better, stronger, wiser person. Wishing you the best.

Yay!

Heh, classic reobservation rant and the beginnings of "knowledge of" reobservation...

"Why does part of this mind 'want' to be miserable and swim in that difficult content, when there is this other part of the mind that wants to exercise, eat right, invest in hobbies and friendships, meditate and improve life? Why is part of the mind so disempowered by the 'pointlessness' of life when the other side of the mind is excited by the prospect of finding it's own meaning? One side sees lack and pointlessness, the other side sees potential and freedom."

Why indeed?  

Something that changed my approach to concentration was realizing I could generate sincere interest in the thing I was trying to concentrate on, and pleasure in the observation.

Sometimes, the analytical lists of theravadin buddhism, such as the wings to awakening, are useful to contemplate. But sometimes, synthetic notions are more powerful and simpler. 

We could say that you're trying to remove the five hindrances. Or that you're trying to balance the spiritual faculties. But we could also say, using a more phenomenological kind of jargon, that you want to learn to domesticate your interest. The notion of interest actually entails all these analytical categories... You want to stay connected with one thing stably for a long time, get absorbed. One of the strongest ways to achieve that, imo, is to see beauty in what you're observing.

When you're fascinated by a painting, a piece of music, a movie... your attention is usually unflagging, right ? Would you say you're "good" at listening to the music you like ?

So, for instance, if you take the breath as object, you could contemplate what your breath is. It is actually what keeps you alive, something which for you is equivalent to life. It's such a profound part of what your are, that you are labeled after it : you are an animal, a being that breathes (anima means breath or spirit). Your breath, in a way, is your spirit - for the christians and jews, ruah, or pneuma in greek (whence : pneumonia), was the holy spirit, right ? The breath of the universe. In many ways, the breath is universal, it is you connection with the cosmos. You have always been breathing, yet you have rarely acknowledged this.

To me, it's a bit like the sun, always present, always shining, even when we don't see it because, well, the earth is between the sun and us. Yet it shines, and warms us, and keeps us alive. Sometimes there is something between you and the breath but it is always there. Otherwise you would be dead. The analogy goes deeper, because indeed, if there was no sun, you would not be breathing, and if you didn't breathe, you could not see at all anymore. So even when you don't pay attention to it, you haven't lost the connection. There is this level of interdependance, but there is even more depth, because actually, your breath is not your breath, and the sun is not the sun, and they are contained within one another, neither the same nor different, neither nor... Can you perceive the sun in your breathing ?

Maybe that's doesn't resonate at all with you, maybe it does... But you get the idea. You can find a way to really engage with the practice, in a way that feels alive, is what I'm trying to say.

It's possible to look at your breath like you would watch the sun set or rise over the ocean, following the slow movement of the waves, taking in their myriad shimmers. Sense the beauty of it, whatever triggers a true sensitivity and vibrancy in your attention, you could pursue. For instance, when I started to contemplate that the breath was not limited to my nostrils, nor to my abdomen, but actually was running through my body at all times, that, quite litterally, the air that I breathed in a minute ago was now in the blood streaming through my fingers, that the pulse of my heart was actually part of the breathing process, that changed something ; I started to see the depth, the beauty, the mystery and poetry there, and then it was easier to want to look.

Thich Nhat Hahn, as well as Ajahn Brahm's instructions, contain something to that effect - TNH in particular invokes a lot of esthetic, poetic sensitivity. Brahm talks about the "beautiful breath" as a forerunner to jhanas. Of course there's little to none of that in theravadin vipassana, but hey, you're not a burmese monk after all !

What is the point of looking at something boring, seriously ?

And on that note, I will take my own advice and start using it in my practice again ! Thanks for letting this come out !

Nice!!!

(And you are probably noticing that moving in this direction leaves you feeling good about yourself which makes you more inspired to move in this direction, etc. It's always some degree of work/intention, but it tends to almost catalyze itself...)

Very nice ! Enjoyment ! I think this is a key thing.

Feel free to ignore this, as too much information can be unhelpful, but here is a talk by Rob Burbea called "creative samadhi", which has proved useful and enlightening for me, i'm listening to it again now after a few months and I still find it refreshing : https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/210/talk/26008/

A general question, which I find that coming back to is imporant, because it is so easy to get side-tracked : if the goal of life is happiness, joy, should happiness depend on external circumstances ? And what specific life circumstances would be ok enough so that happiness would be justified ? Why is it not ok to be happy and joyful right now ?

Maybe developing more jhana practice would be a good support at this stage.

Malcolm (with much metta)

Are you sure? 

Question - is that awareness still alive? How long does it live?

This is something to save for later in your practice  

Good stuff.

I really identify with this last post. I've spent so much of my life driven by ambition to create or do something incredible. Something that will make people like me or that will prove that I'm okay and a good person.

After my A&P experience, I felt so much of this evaporate. It's left me in a funny place, since I am finally at a place professionally where I've always wanted to be. I have more opportunity than ever had, and my professional abilities are in a place that would have astounded me when I was younger, but I just don't fill the burning desire to get that golden trophy.

I've mostly just accepted that I just want to work a regular job for now, and I've turned down some good opportunities to do that. Now I'm kinda just sitting at home doing chores while I wait for the right job opportunity. A year ago I probably would have been miserably depressed about this, but I'm feeling much more peace about it now.  

Accepting where I am has been so deeply liberating. It's probably been the best side-effect of the practice. I've felt that same drive to hit SE after crossing the A&P, but I have to keep in mind how good things are right now and stay focused on that whether in my practice or just in life.

Now I have all these things in life that I've learned to do, or am still learning to do and I'm just sitting and waiting to see what will drive me to continue now that I don't have this achey, burning desire to do things to prove my worth. I started Jiu Jitsu two years ago, def. motivated by all the wanting to do big things to look cool. I'm still doing it, but I'm patiently waiting to see if some other quieter, more loving reason becomes apparent for me to continue. I could apply that to four or five different areas of my life. 

How the heck do you send a PM BTW?

Not really.  It goes at the end (one of the final five cylons, er, I mean fetters).  But it subsists in a subtle form right until then, as subtle ego or pride. I wouldn't worry about it, in the sense that trying to suppress it is pointless and likely highly counterproductive.  Just try not to let it get out of control.  Noting it, as you are doing, is excellent.

Malcolm  

Noting restlessness.  Noting striving.  

Sounds like you're working it out.

A 1 day retreat, then a 3 day retreat, then a 5 day retreat, then a 10 day retreat, then a 14 day retreat.


Don't worry about big plans now except figuring out how you can do a 1 day retreat. Simple.

Life can't be lived all at once. And "our life" really happens when you meet it half way. We are responsible for taking the next step... and then life kinda happens in a way that shocks and surprises us. 

It's important to spend some time truly visualizing what we want. When we visualize, pay attention to the body. A true vision is nourishing, with a little bit of a fearful edge. A fake vision is pure pleasure, like too much sugar. Or a fake vision is all ambition/aggression, like too much coffee and adrenaline. A true vision has heart.

And once you have the vision, figure out "what is the next smallest step I can take?" Focus on that. Don't skip steps. Make it really really simple. Like let's say you want to do a one day home retreat. The first thing you'll need is a place to sit. Tidy up your sitting space --- done! Nothing fancy, but you are now a step closer. 

The tricky thing about vision is that we get too attached to our plans to get there. The purpose of the vision is to help clarify the next step. We can only do the next step in life. This moment, the next step. And if our steps wind up giving us more information about reality (like "a 13 day retreat kicked my ass") then we adjust our next step, rather than clinging to our original plan. "Okay, that was too much, too soon. Gotta build up to that."

Vision, next step, adjust.

We need to take the middle path between lazy and ambitious. 

Listen to shargrol.

If I were in the midst of a young, single and unattached life like yours I'd find that one thing I most enjoy and love to think about and do. For me, that would be a hard science like physics or astronomy. Then I'd GO FOR IT. I might even build another telescope.

But the current version of me wants to tell you to chill a bit. You have a first world-type problem 

What does your teacher say about this?

My humble suggestion would be to drop lofty goals and/or comparisons to others in favor of making your practice routine your goal. You can also make the type of practice you do your goal. You can do this, but it takes time. Consistency is your biggest friend.

Just do it.

You have a choice. You can just do this or find fault with every suggestion, or even the whole thing. If you don't like your teacher, find a different one. Kenneth Folk, who was my teacher, does indeed have the history that you mention, but he was a good teacher for me at the time and I never practiced more than two half-hour periods a day. History or not, he knows what he's talking about.

Bottom line (which may sound mean to you) -- cut the crap and just do this. Get going on a regular, consistent basis.

Hey, we love you, too!

Your honesty shows a lot of maturity, Kid. And, dare I say it, biology is not destiny. But... it's very good that you've processed all of the history. Your motives seem clear now, right? We're all stuck in this hell and we all find different ways to cope. This medium is limiting, to say the least, but how can we help you?

That so sounds like my story not now but man did I struggle with it in the same fashion. And each time I come to conclusion, just like Neo in the Matrix, that I have been down that road so many times and know well it leads to nothing new still I went down that road, again and again.

Thats ok. we all have stuff to deal with.

I can only share my view on this and what I think can help a lot in such cases. Im not going into therapy stuff as that is something you alone can decide if you need it or not but practice wise I would suggest to get someone here on forum who is willing to meet with you weekly on Skype to act as a teacher/dhamma friend and focus on practice.

Best would be to get someone you know/assume is fully realised as this will keep you more honest  and respectful of their time spent with you (meaning you will take your practice/time more seriously and focused).

Hey, that took a lot of courage.  And confirms beyond anything that nobody has been wasting their time. You know what, three days without alcohol is enough for concentration to improve (convenient small steps, but also true).  But, I think also don't beat yourself up, seeing it clearly is a huge step.

Malcolm

Now that you have written it, it is out in the open and you can't deny it. That's good, because that's an important step in doing something about it. I still believe in you. If you can't stop drinking on your own, get the help that you need. Drinking isn't even a short-term solution after a while, as you may have started to notice. I grew up with alcoholic family members just like you. One of them was my father. It didn't go well for him. You can still turn this around. We are here for you.

Hey Hibiscus Kid,


I usually just lurk occasionally but made a throwaway account so I could respond. I have been practicing for a few years, working with a teacher. I also have lived with addiction issues since I was a teen (late twenties now). Not alcohol in my case but the broad strokes are all the same. Just wanted to reply to offer to chat if you feel like it. No problem if not. I just know it can be hard to talk to people in your real life about this stuff and I have some experience with how practice can help, as well as how it can't (stream entry, in and of itself, is no magic fix)


Papa Che's point about going down the same road over and over is a good one. It's taken me over a decade to get it. It's really the same point we learn in practice. You can only bang your head into a wall so many times before we get the message that it hurts. Unfortunately we all, and addicts in particular, tend to be very talented at telling ourselves things like "there's actually no wall", or "that wall hurts other people but I can wear a helmet and be ok", or "yeah ok, that wall hurt me the last 500 times but it's looking pretty soft today, I don't think it will hurt this time". And it's hard because you can even learn the lesson but keep doing it. Then you know exactly what you're doing but can't stop, which is a hard place to be. 


But, I think most people that truly become addicts aren't sounding the alarm as early as you just did. I certainly wasn't. You should give yourself credit for that. Anyway, feel free to send me a PM if you want a sounding board for this stuff

So sorry to hear this man. I'd be willing to bet that struggling with compulsions is very universal experience among this group. For me it takes a different form than drinking (procrastination, video games, social media) but you really could be describing a thousand experiences I've passed through before. This isolation shit does not make it any easier. 

At the very least, sharing this stuff is far healthier than suffering in silence. The suffering you are feeling right now matters, is valid and is nothing to be ashamed of. Thanks for having the courage to share it. I wish I had found that type of courage years ago.

You've done much to demonstrate your desire to grow as a human being. You may not be satisfied with the degree of your commitment, but the practice has been happening nonetheless. You've been keeping a log and working with a teacher. Doing 13 days of a hardcorde Mahasi retreat is also no cake walk and shows some major balls. I personally practiced for over 12 years before even realizing that awakening was a real thing! I wish I would have been on the right track sooner, but I also can't ignore the growth I made during that time that prepared me for the path. At least you know where you're headed from the get go.

Sending out much metta and karuna.  Hoping to swap war stories of the journey to Stream Entry and beyond someday.

Hi Hibiscus,

I just wanted to confirm the notion that sometimes, you have to run into the same wall until you really can't deny it's going on and then something happens. I'm no specialist, but can share something about me.

I used to smoke a ridiculous amount of cigarettes, for about 8 years (it's not that long, but I was basically smoking the whole time). I used to be renouned for that ^^ at least 20 cigarettes a day, rollies at that, which last a long time.

I also used to drink a lot, partying every week end for quite some time and sometimes doing drugs. I had accidents several times and almost died a couple. I would drink consistently, too, like, for two years I would drink beer every evening, and more often than not get drunk.

When it was time to stop I just did. I'm not saying this to brag or anything like that, but just to give a perspective that's a bit different from the deterministic thing. I know you are suffering from this situation right now, but tell me something : are you actually not having even a bit of fun when drinking ? Are you not entertaining some notions about the fact that this is actually a fun thing which will add something to your life or present situation ? 

Maybe it's not like that for you and I apologize if I'm overstepping.

But I found that this thing I'm mentioning was actually the very central point. 

I didn't have any particular weakness or hereditary thing or whatever story I could have told myself. It's just that I actually thought it was fun, on some levels. I actually thought I liked smoking. If I had really really believed there was no reason to smoke whatsoever... well I would not have continued ! I thought drinking was fun too. 

I stopped when I managed to completely deconstruct the beliefs I had regarding the effect these substances had on me, when it became actually very obvious that there was nothing positive coming out of it. And quitting smoking was very easy. Drinking was even easier. 

I was not an alcoholic nor addicted to smoking. "Beer is not beer, subhuti, that's why they call it beer..." I just actually thought it was adding something to my life, although I didn't know that that was why I was doing it and sometimes was sick of it, and remorseful, etc... It's just that I kept making the same mistake until one day I just saw it through.

The most crucial aspects of the process were : (1) changing my view of myself in relation with those things, and changing my opinion about what these things did (analysis), (2) convince myself utterly that what was going on was simpler than I thought and most importantly (3) destroy all guilt, all shame, all fear and all notions that this was a problem, that I had a problem, that it was bad, etc. etc.

Not saying this works for everyone but it sure happened like that for me. In retrospect, I would say that was just entertaining wrond notions in my body and mind, about myself and about these experiences of drinking and smoking, which were out of sync with how they actually played out and what their impact was. In fact, I don't see all this as a dark thing at all, not really, I think I was just being silly. Nothing dramatic. A foolish young cow thing.

Just my 2cents. You are not bad for doing that.

Don't be embarrassed Kid, be proud for the courage and honesty it takes. Many of us have such problems, but not enough courage and honesty. I had/have several of them, big ones. It's part of this damn life we live.

Good to have you back!

Why the decision to move the emphasis on your new log just to phenomenology?

Well said!

Pepe needs to bookmark that one.

I usually get funny looks from the group I sit with when I talk about phenomenology. The discussion is usually everything but what they do when they meditate. I've had a few impromptu discussions before our sessions where we talked about technique that were super interesting. Everyone was doing totally different stuff.