10 day Goenka retreat, 3rd path - Discussion
So far change in perspective holding.
I've considered a lot of things, like the "path experience" not being third but second path (and my second path being other thing).
Also being arising and passing away.
But, 5 days after it shines like the first day. Also, I have some ideas about a lot of things that I'd like to share in case they can be useful to someone.
From my perpective now, everything is seen as "pain-compassion".
Like you have a lot of mental and physical "worlds" and some are in pain and some have compassion. So, compassion "takes action" and you do something to release the pain (like stretching a numb muscle, but in the mental world).
After some consideration, I'd like to post some ideas that I have about a "framework of awakening" (up to 3rd path or whatever
).
1. There are 3 types of phenomena:
- Hearing, seeing, tasting, etc related to the outside world. I'll call them "senses"
- Feelings, emotions and thoughts. I'll call them "feelings"
- Body sensations (like breathing, energies in the body, air flowing, etc). I'll call them "sensations".
2. Before 1st path all of them are seen as permanent, satisfying and self.
3. At 1st path, "senses" are seen as impermanent, not satisfying and not self
At 2st path, "feelings" are seen as impermanent, not satisfying and not self
At 3st path, "sensations" are seen as impermanent, not satisfying and not self
4. The AP moment is one of the 3 characteristics being fully seen at each path:
- AP moment for 1st path is "impermanence" (anicca).
- AP moment for 2st path is "not self" (anatta).
- AP moment for 3st path is "suffering" (dukkha).
This corresponds OK with my experience.
For 1st path I strived with impermanence.
I remember for 2nd path going on long walks on the Gooenka retreat with feelings of joy and looking at the horizon and "sensing" the division between the outside world, myself and my emotions.
For 3rd I began feeling compassion for myself and all my mental "worlds". I had a lot of "I'm not my body" experiences that felt like "weird".
My guess is that at AP moment one characteristic is fully seen and another is "partially deduced". So experiences have a mix of two, with one dominant.
5. After the path, the mind delights in the impression that the characteristic that is fully seen.
So, after 1st path, the mind enjoys "impermanence". After 2nd, "not self". And after 3rd "suffering".
My guess is that it uses the "momentum" of the previous characteristic seen for the next path.
So 2nd path fruition is "not self - impermanence" and 3rd is "suffering - not self".
6. All this can be used for formal meditation instructions to focus on:
- For 1st path "impermanence and senses (mostly seeing and hearing)". Use not self or suffering for path.
- For 2nd path "not self and feelings". Use impermanence from 1st.
- For 3rd path "suffering and body sensations (breathing, pain). Use "not self" from 2nd.
So, this is what I can come up so far. There are other things of course. Some experiences can have some qualities of higher paths.
It's all based on my experience, so it's not "a framework of awakening" (also, it doesn't contain 4th).
For me it's useful to know that the "pain-compassion-mental worlds" that I "see" right now is another thing (not the all solution).
After all "pain-compassion" is "dual".
I'll enjoy my new ability to go into mental worlds.
My mind will try to unknot the thousand knots as I switch from "senses" to "feelings" to "body sensations". Even as I experience each of the 3 phenomena as not dual, the combination of the 3 are felt dual.
I'm pretty sure they are the same thing (I've had some experiences where I feel them like that).
Another thing is that I'm really sure is this. There is no way out. After the first AP and after 1st path, the mind strives to go forward (no matter what you do, meditate or not).
I have a good explanation for this (that involves the three characteristics). It also explains the way people who have not crossed the AP experience the world. But it is not ready yet.
Hopefully all this ramble can be useful to someone. Maybe it's all deluded and misguided, and I hope I don't offend or misguide anyone. In any case, take it with a grain of salt (or lots !!!).
I've considered a lot of things, like the "path experience" not being third but second path (and my second path being other thing).
Also being arising and passing away.
But, 5 days after it shines like the first day. Also, I have some ideas about a lot of things that I'd like to share in case they can be useful to someone.
From my perpective now, everything is seen as "pain-compassion".
Like you have a lot of mental and physical "worlds" and some are in pain and some have compassion. So, compassion "takes action" and you do something to release the pain (like stretching a numb muscle, but in the mental world).
After some consideration, I'd like to post some ideas that I have about a "framework of awakening" (up to 3rd path or whatever
).1. There are 3 types of phenomena:
- Hearing, seeing, tasting, etc related to the outside world. I'll call them "senses"
- Feelings, emotions and thoughts. I'll call them "feelings"
- Body sensations (like breathing, energies in the body, air flowing, etc). I'll call them "sensations".
2. Before 1st path all of them are seen as permanent, satisfying and self.
3. At 1st path, "senses" are seen as impermanent, not satisfying and not self
At 2st path, "feelings" are seen as impermanent, not satisfying and not self
At 3st path, "sensations" are seen as impermanent, not satisfying and not self
4. The AP moment is one of the 3 characteristics being fully seen at each path:
- AP moment for 1st path is "impermanence" (anicca).
- AP moment for 2st path is "not self" (anatta).
- AP moment for 3st path is "suffering" (dukkha).
This corresponds OK with my experience.
For 1st path I strived with impermanence.
I remember for 2nd path going on long walks on the Gooenka retreat with feelings of joy and looking at the horizon and "sensing" the division between the outside world, myself and my emotions.
For 3rd I began feeling compassion for myself and all my mental "worlds". I had a lot of "I'm not my body" experiences that felt like "weird".
My guess is that at AP moment one characteristic is fully seen and another is "partially deduced". So experiences have a mix of two, with one dominant.
5. After the path, the mind delights in the impression that the characteristic that is fully seen.
So, after 1st path, the mind enjoys "impermanence". After 2nd, "not self". And after 3rd "suffering".
My guess is that it uses the "momentum" of the previous characteristic seen for the next path.
So 2nd path fruition is "not self - impermanence" and 3rd is "suffering - not self".
6. All this can be used for formal meditation instructions to focus on:
- For 1st path "impermanence and senses (mostly seeing and hearing)". Use not self or suffering for path.
- For 2nd path "not self and feelings". Use impermanence from 1st.
- For 3rd path "suffering and body sensations (breathing, pain). Use "not self" from 2nd.
So, this is what I can come up so far. There are other things of course. Some experiences can have some qualities of higher paths.
It's all based on my experience, so it's not "a framework of awakening" (also, it doesn't contain 4th
).For me it's useful to know that the "pain-compassion-mental worlds" that I "see" right now is another thing (not the all solution).
After all "pain-compassion" is "dual".
I'll enjoy my new ability to go into mental worlds.
My mind will try to unknot the thousand knots as I switch from "senses" to "feelings" to "body sensations". Even as I experience each of the 3 phenomena as not dual, the combination of the 3 are felt dual.
I'm pretty sure they are the same thing (I've had some experiences where I feel them like that).
Another thing is that I'm really sure is this. There is no way out. After the first AP and after 1st path, the mind strives to go forward (no matter what you do, meditate or not).
I have a good explanation for this (that involves the three characteristics). It also explains the way people who have not crossed the AP experience the world. But it is not ready yet
.Hopefully all this ramble can be useful to someone. Maybe it's all deluded and misguided, and I hope I don't offend or misguide anyone. In any case, take it with a grain of salt (or lots !!!).
One other thing that comes to my mind:
For AP, the mind sees clearly 1 characteristic and partially deduces another one.
At each path (1, 2, 3), the mind clearly sees 2 characteristics and deduces the other.
I ran out of characteristic for 4th, so.....the reasoning is really simple:
At 4th the mind sees the 3 characteristics clearly (without deducing any of them).
My guess is that it "unifies" the three "worlds" I mentioned before (senses, feelings and body sensations).
Today I just can't stop rambling..... Reflecting on that as I write this post.
For AP, the mind sees clearly 1 characteristic and partially deduces another one.
At each path (1, 2, 3), the mind clearly sees 2 characteristics and deduces the other.
I ran out of characteristic for 4th, so.....the reasoning is really simple:
At 4th the mind sees the 3 characteristics clearly (without deducing any of them).
My guess is that it "unifies" the three "worlds" I mentioned before (senses, feelings and body sensations).
Today I just can't stop rambling
..... Reflecting on that as I write this post.
Still rambling .
Lets see if I can put this rambling to good use.
Seeing the 3Cs in every phenomena at the same time is really difficult. That won't fly.
So I had an idea. How about if when you get a path, you don't clearly see the 3Cs but only 2 (and the other is "partially inferred").
Daniel talks about the three doors, and each one has 2Cs.
So it would make sense that, as each path is with 2Cs, there's one missing.
Then it would make sense that, for 4th path, you need to clearly understand the one that's missing.
In my case I got 1st through the "impermanence" and "not self" door. The 1st is the senses (seeing, hearing, tasting).
The same with the 2nd (maybe that's why it was not so difficult). The 2nd is emotions and feelings.
And the 3rd was "suffering" and "not self". The 3rd is body sensations.
So, I have to see suffering in seeing and hearing (it's going to be hard because both shine a lot). I'll look for the feeling that they don't satisfy.
Also see suffering in feelings and emotions.
And see impermanence in body sensations.
Also, between "seeing, hearing, feelings and emotions" (lack suffering) and "body sensations" (lack impermanence) there should be a gap where knots would be made (because they clearly see 2 different characteristics).
Finally, I've had 2 combinations of the 3Cs in the paths. I still didn't have a "impermanence-suffering" path.
OK. I can work with this.
.Lets see if I can put this rambling to good use.
Seeing the 3Cs in every phenomena at the same time is really difficult. That won't fly.
So I had an idea. How about if when you get a path, you don't clearly see the 3Cs but only 2 (and the other is "partially inferred").
Daniel talks about the three doors, and each one has 2Cs.
So it would make sense that, as each path is with 2Cs, there's one missing.
Then it would make sense that, for 4th path, you need to clearly understand the one that's missing.
In my case I got 1st through the "impermanence" and "not self" door. The 1st is the senses (seeing, hearing, tasting).
The same with the 2nd (maybe that's why it was not so difficult). The 2nd is emotions and feelings.
And the 3rd was "suffering" and "not self". The 3rd is body sensations.
So, I have to see suffering in seeing and hearing (it's going to be hard because both shine a lot). I'll look for the feeling that they don't satisfy.
Also see suffering in feelings and emotions.
And see impermanence in body sensations.
Also, between "seeing, hearing, feelings and emotions" (lack suffering) and "body sensations" (lack impermanence) there should be a gap where knots would be made (because they clearly see 2 different characteristics).
Finally, I've had 2 combinations of the 3Cs in the paths. I still didn't have a "impermanence-suffering" path.
OK. I can work with this.
I had access to some sort of jhana (1st and 2nd) even before 1st path.
Access to Jhana is improving. That said, what happened in the retreat never happened to me before.
It was 1, 2, 3, Jhana. I was never able to get to Jhana in 3 seconds and navigate through the Jhanas with ease (keeping alertness and concentration steady).
That said, it was a "retreat" feature. While I have a lot better single point concentration now, it takes some time to get to Jhana (5-10 minutes).
About the "oh my head hurts", yes, definitely, I've had them. More like a "hangover from hell thing". Ironically, this hangover is concentration based.
I posted about this after 1st and also after 2nd (I can't find the post). After 2nd it was really weird (some kind of powers).
After 1st
"Didn't sleep all night long. In the morning I slept two hours (very, very deep rest) and I woke with a kind of hangover. Like drained but not rested. I still have this headache.
Now concentration is building again (and now I'm not so sure thats a good thing). I can feel the stillness, "moving"."
After 2nd
"Day 7 to 10. Spent the rest of the retreat focusing on concentration. Had some really strong kundalini experiences, and I think at the end I learned how to move energies with ease."
So, after each path I had come kind of concentration based, point in the middle of the head, hangover-energy thing.
I've considered the possibility of this shift being AP or 2nd. In this change in perspective, things happen move too fast, a little out of control, in a way that doesn't feel too good. But they are also shinier and more clear. So maybe it's the dark night, but it's too emcompassing to be DN.
It doesn't matter. It's done and the shift holds and is deepening (that's all I care about).
Anyway, I'll stop making theories about what it was and rambling, and keep investigating phenomena.
Access to Jhana is improving. That said, what happened in the retreat never happened to me before.
It was 1, 2, 3, Jhana. I was never able to get to Jhana in 3 seconds and navigate through the Jhanas with ease (keeping alertness and concentration steady).
That said, it was a "retreat" feature. While I have a lot better single point concentration now, it takes some time to get to Jhana (5-10 minutes).
About the "oh my head hurts", yes, definitely, I've had them. More like a "hangover from hell thing"
. Ironically, this hangover is concentration based.I posted about this after 1st and also after 2nd (I can't find the post). After 2nd it was really weird (some kind of powers).
After 1st
"Didn't sleep all night long. In the morning I slept two hours (very, very deep rest) and I woke with a kind of hangover. Like drained but not rested. I still have this headache.
Now concentration is building again (and now I'm not so sure thats a good thing). I can feel the stillness, "moving"."
After 2nd
"Day 7 to 10. Spent the rest of the retreat focusing on concentration. Had some really strong kundalini experiences, and I think at the end I learned how to move energies with ease."
So, after each path I had come kind of concentration based, point in the middle of the head, hangover-energy thing.
I've considered the possibility of this shift being AP or 2nd. In this change in perspective, things happen move too fast, a little out of control, in a way that doesn't feel too good. But they are also shinier and more clear. So maybe it's the dark night, but it's too emcompassing to be DN.
It doesn't matter. It's done and the shift holds and is deepening (that's all I care about
).Anyway, I'll stop making theories about what it was and rambling, and keep investigating phenomena.
Making theories is totally fine... it just takes a while to know if they are on track or not. Things much more sense after time and looking backwards...
Anyway, this is my kinda-funny, kinda-true diagnosis technique: if people say they're done, it's third. If someone says it's third it can be anywhere! The 1, 2, 3, 4, access to jhana normally comes after SE. Certainly post SE there is the "I just sit down and I'm already at A&P" for a while. Of course this varies... The road to third tends to have A LOT of realizations about emptiness --- really deeply seeing "form is emptiness" --- the formless jhanas come on strong if they haven't already, and usually has multiple apparent insight cycles, even fractal-ish insight cycles...
Anyway, my hunch is possibly/likely post 2nd, but almost definitely pre-3rd. That's my wild guess.
By the way, it's totally normal to question paths numbers, paths vs. AP, etc. If you aren't confused and in doubt, then you are probably not paying close enough attention. These maps are human created and experience itself does not come with labels. We do the best we can to understand but our practice and other's descriptions, but there is a lot of uncertainty. (Which is a good lesson in itself!)
Again, sounds like good practice! Thanks for reporting your data!!
Anyway, this is my kinda-funny, kinda-true diagnosis technique: if people say they're done, it's third. If someone says it's third it can be anywhere!
The 1, 2, 3, 4, access to jhana normally comes after SE. Certainly post SE there is the "I just sit down and I'm already at A&P" for a while. Of course this varies... The road to third tends to have A LOT of realizations about emptiness --- really deeply seeing "form is emptiness" --- the formless jhanas come on strong if they haven't already, and usually has multiple apparent insight cycles, even fractal-ish insight cycles... Anyway, my hunch is possibly/likely post 2nd, but almost definitely pre-3rd. That's my wild guess.
By the way, it's totally normal to question paths numbers, paths vs. AP, etc. If you aren't confused and in doubt, then you are probably not paying close enough attention. These maps are human created and experience itself does not come with labels. We do the best we can to understand but our practice and other's descriptions, but there is a lot of uncertainty. (Which is a good lesson in itself!)
Again, sounds like good practice! Thanks for reporting your data!!
Well, I had a lot of realizations in my last home retreat with emptiness and my body (that seemed strange). Also for a time I also was able to get to the formless realms.
I posted about these things being 2.5 path in DreamWalker's line.
Experiences
Anyway, this change of perspective has nothing to do with emptiness or not self.
It's more a no fog, no veil, phenomena moving faster and brighter (and a little scarier out of control), and awareness of the field being extremely stable (meaning things are better "located").
I said thing look grainier, not that I check again, they don't, they look sharp, a lot sharper and "real" than before. When I focus wide or stare, the whole field looks grainier.
Maybe I'm having eyesight problems.
I really don't know if there are noticeable, permanent, all encompassing changes in perspective that aren't paths.
Another thing, maybe it's the "done" thing, but it seems that from now I'm going back (or maybe I was already going back) to where I was before stream entry. I can feel the "spiritual searcher" beginning to fade. It's seen as another of the selfs that arise and pass away.
I posted about these things being 2.5 path in DreamWalker's line.
Experiences
Anyway, this change of perspective has nothing to do with emptiness or not self.
It's more a no fog, no veil, phenomena moving faster and brighter (and a little scarier out of control), and awareness of the field being extremely stable (meaning things are better "located").
I said thing look grainier, not that I check again, they don't, they look sharp, a lot sharper and "real" than before. When I focus wide or stare, the whole field looks grainier.
Maybe I'm having eyesight problems
.I really don't know if there are noticeable, permanent, all encompassing changes in perspective that aren't paths.
Another thing, maybe it's the "done" thing, but it seems that from now I'm going back (or maybe I was already going back) to where I was before stream entry. I can feel the "spiritual searcher" beginning to fade. It's seen as another of the selfs that arise and pass away.
Okay, I can see why you think 3rd, no worries.
This things are hard to diagnose -- it takes so much history and talking to really nail it down, so I really do mean that I'm not sure!
This things are hard to diagnose -- it takes so much history and talking to really nail it down, so I really do mean that I'm not sure!
I really like your Framework, and maybe I'm 2.5.
After 1st mapping becomes more complicated.
In any case, this is the first shift where I'm not so sure I like the result.
Everything seems more "chaotic" and some parts of agency seem broken.
Things look brigther but they also look less solid, less separated from other things.
I'm curious about your "strick definitions of 3rd".
I haven't seen many definitions of 3rd (and I'm not very convinced about the ones I've seen).
After 1st mapping becomes more complicated.
In any case, this is the first shift where I'm not so sure I like the result
.Everything seems more "chaotic" and some parts of agency seem broken.
Things look brigther but they also look less solid, less separated from other things.
I'm curious about your "strick definitions of 3rd".
I haven't seen many definitions of 3rd (and I'm not very convinced about the ones I've seen
).
Well, some time has passed. The shift remains and a new path has been started (not sure if after 2nd or after 3rd). My guess is that I'm in "Cause and effect" or "Mind and Body".
Some considerations about the three moments I did consider path:
- The 1st was completely "out of the blue". For 2nd I was aware of something happening before the blip. And 3rd there was a part of me knowing what I was doing or what was happening.
Maybe this has something to do with first being attained at home and the others at retreat.
- Concentration after path was extremely high, but decreasing for each path (impossible to manage in first, somewhat manageable in 2nd and completely manageable after 3rd).
- The 3 of them had a huge change of perspective, not related to what was happening before. This change of perspective did not have a wow factor, but as it applied to everything all the time, was more impressive that any other experience (for example, a lot of experiences that I had in my home retreat where I didn't get a path and had a lot of AP experiences).
Now, some rambling:
These days I was doing concentration practices mixed with insight. It struck me how easy I could access the low Jhanas and I began investigating attention, grasping, focusing, relaxing, etc.
I moved from 1st to 4th, changing the focus from breath to pleasureable sensations, to visualizations. In the background, there was some constant, subtle effort in continuity.
It began to happen that I could dissect how, after a sensation happened, a visualization ocurred. That visualization was a kind of "interpratation" of the sensation. When I looked closer, I realized that concepts were made of lot of visualizations from memory.
It struck me as weird how I could't make a concept that didn't have visualizations (most of the time parts of many visualizacions)
In my case, there was a pleasurable flow from front of the head to the back. I had visualizations of water running, of "yellow energies" flowing, of two compartments separated by a pipe and the pipe widening, of parts of my head vibrating or tingling (incomplete visualizations of my head and moving things).
My take on all this:
- There is a sensation. The sensation is impossible to interpret to the mind without reference.
- The mind searches in memory for "references of the sensation". It gets some and then "loops" looking for references of the references. And then "references of references of references". All this "references" are from memory and as such, have and "observer".
My guess is that most memories are visual, and have space distorted to provide stability for storage. Also, a memory usually compresses multiple sensations and asociations in one thing (some sort of zipping).
- This would explain the observer and fractals (the loop generates a fractal or a tree). In order to "learn" the new sensation, a context is needed from memory.
Also, these days I find "suffering and compassion" demolishing "desire and aversion". I began having changes in desire and aversion after what I considered 2nd but now it's a lot more pronunciated. This aligns with 2nd and 3rd path (lower fetters). So, I'm really confident I'm at least 2nd.
My view right now is that all that happens, everything all people do is based on compassion.
You have to account that compassion happens in each person "mental worlds". Also for a lot of different kinds of suffering. I do understand karma a lot, a lot better than before.
A pain is felt in the body, then compassion sets in and a pain is felt in the mind as "not knowing how to solve the pain in the body" (but a relief from the original pain in the body) and then out of compassion some measure is taken to resolve both pains.
Our body, our thoughts, our reality are always twisting and moving to put and end to different kinds of suffering.
My guess is that somehow, I'll continue making progress in the path.
There is some part of me that really doesn't like unnecessary suffering.
Some considerations about the three moments I did consider path:
- The 1st was completely "out of the blue". For 2nd I was aware of something happening before the blip. And 3rd there was a part of me knowing what I was doing or what was happening.
Maybe this has something to do with first being attained at home and the others at retreat.
- Concentration after path was extremely high, but decreasing for each path (impossible to manage in first, somewhat manageable in 2nd and completely manageable after 3rd).
- The 3 of them had a huge change of perspective, not related to what was happening before. This change of perspective did not have a wow factor, but as it applied to everything all the time, was more impressive that any other experience (for example, a lot of experiences that I had in my home retreat where I didn't get a path and had a lot of AP experiences).
Now, some rambling:
These days I was doing concentration practices mixed with insight. It struck me how easy I could access the low Jhanas and I began investigating attention, grasping, focusing, relaxing, etc.
I moved from 1st to 4th, changing the focus from breath to pleasureable sensations, to visualizations. In the background, there was some constant, subtle effort in continuity.
It began to happen that I could dissect how, after a sensation happened, a visualization ocurred. That visualization was a kind of "interpratation" of the sensation. When I looked closer, I realized that concepts were made of lot of visualizations from memory.
It struck me as weird how I could't make a concept that didn't have visualizations (most of the time parts of many visualizacions)
In my case, there was a pleasurable flow from front of the head to the back. I had visualizations of water running, of "yellow energies" flowing, of two compartments separated by a pipe and the pipe widening, of parts of my head vibrating or tingling (incomplete visualizations of my head and moving things).
My take on all this:
- There is a sensation. The sensation is impossible to interpret to the mind without reference.
- The mind searches in memory for "references of the sensation". It gets some and then "loops" looking for references of the references. And then "references of references of references". All this "references" are from memory and as such, have and "observer".
My guess is that most memories are visual, and have space distorted to provide stability for storage. Also, a memory usually compresses multiple sensations and asociations in one thing (some sort of zipping
).- This would explain the observer and fractals (the loop generates a fractal or a tree). In order to "learn" the new sensation, a context is needed from memory.
Also, these days I find "suffering and compassion" demolishing "desire and aversion". I began having changes in desire and aversion after what I considered 2nd but now it's a lot more pronunciated. This aligns with 2nd and 3rd path (lower fetters). So, I'm really confident I'm at least 2nd.
My view right now is that all that happens, everything all people do is based on compassion.
You have to account that compassion happens in each person "mental worlds". Also for a lot of different kinds of suffering. I do understand karma a lot, a lot better than before.
A pain is felt in the body, then compassion sets in and a pain is felt in the mind as "not knowing how to solve the pain in the body" (but a relief from the original pain in the body) and then out of compassion some measure is taken to resolve both pains.
Our body, our thoughts, our reality are always twisting and moving to put and end to different kinds of suffering.
My guess is that somehow, I'll continue making progress in the path.
There is some part of me that really doesn't like unnecessary suffering
.
Some corrections:
- I was in "Cause and effect" or "Mind and body" yesterday (when I was doing concentration). Today I'm in 3Cs or AP (3.4 or 4.3?)
Another thing I didn't mention: Aversion to the seeker.
I find most of the time that I do not want to meditate or some part of me that doesn't want to do anything that consolidates some sort of "seeker". This has been increasing after 1st path and it's becoming a big obstacle to doing proper meditation.
After what I consider 3rd, there are a lot of things that happen on their own and I find even more difficult to make resolutions or keep track of things.
I'll try to investigate what's going on there.
- I was in "Cause and effect" or "Mind and body" yesterday (when I was doing concentration). Today I'm in 3Cs or AP (3.4 or 4.3?)
Another thing I didn't mention: Aversion to the seeker.
I find most of the time that I do not want to meditate or some part of me that doesn't want to do anything that consolidates some sort of "seeker". This has been increasing after 1st path and it's becoming a big obstacle to doing proper meditation.
After what I consider 3rd, there are a lot of things that happen on their own and I find even more difficult to make resolutions or keep track of things.
I'll try to investigate what's going on there
.
The more I meditate these days, the more I realize how the mind "links" a sensation that arises to a bunch of others things creating the notion of continuity, solidity of concepts, etc.
It's interesting because I couldn't do this before. I could't see the process where a visualization is created linking to a lot of sensations (and visualizations, etc) giving the idea of something separated on it's own.
Even more, I do think that the process is pretty generic and not only applies to concentration practice.
Most repetitive actions, link the old action (from memory) to the new one, making some distintion (separating from reality each action) creating the idea of continuity.
Even most of my history, my childhood, my memories, my meditation practice is conceptualized, moment by moment by linking this visualizations and sensations in a process that requires a lot of effort.
Of course, this can't be true, things arise on their own.
It's interesting that most things that require continuity can be seen as some kind of concentration practice. AF, PCE, habits, etc.
I'm certain that whatever arises, it arises out of compassion (even duality) and can't be stopped by brute force.
There is something about causality, karma, memory, etc that doesn't seem right.
I'll keep practicing, trying to speed up the mind to find what continuity, pleasure and self (like the negative of the 3Cs) there is in the sensations and visualizations, trying to feel the process that creates them, the compassion of it, the suffering that it covers.
When I'm fast and consistent, my guess is that I catch it near the beginning or the end.
All I have to do is repeat that again and again till I do.
It's interesting because I couldn't do this before. I could't see the process where a visualization is created linking to a lot of sensations (and visualizations, etc) giving the idea of something separated on it's own.
Even more, I do think that the process is pretty generic and not only applies to concentration practice.
Most repetitive actions, link the old action (from memory) to the new one, making some distintion (separating from reality each action) creating the idea of continuity.
Even most of my history, my childhood, my memories, my meditation practice is conceptualized, moment by moment by linking this visualizations and sensations in a process that requires a lot of effort.
Of course, this can't be true, things arise on their own.
It's interesting that most things that require continuity can be seen as some kind of concentration practice. AF, PCE, habits, etc.
I'm certain that whatever arises, it arises out of compassion (even duality) and can't be stopped by brute force.
There is something about causality, karma, memory, etc that doesn't seem right.
I'll keep practicing, trying to speed up the mind to find what continuity, pleasure and self (like the negative of the 3Cs) there is in the sensations and visualizations, trying to feel the process that creates them, the compassion of it, the suffering that it covers.
When I'm fast and consistent, my guess is that I catch it near the beginning or the end.
All I have to do is repeat that again and again till I do
.
Thanks for the advice. I'll keep investigating.
While I sound like I know what I'm doing, in reality I'm full of doubts.
Whatever path this is, I've never felt so "lost".
I also find it very hard to keep a consistent practice (didn't happen before).
If I'm in the road to 4th, I don't find "eating away at even the premises of meditation and practice itself" interesting at all but really confusing and painful.
There's also something interesting. Some part of me keeps investigating (even when I'm not in formal meditation or even noting). Something keeps moving forward. It's irritating because it get's nowhere, no wow experiences, no insight, no concentration, nothing.
Again, thanks for the advice.
While I sound like I know what I'm doing, in reality I'm full of doubts.
Whatever path this is, I've never felt so "lost".
I also find it very hard to keep a consistent practice (didn't happen before).
If I'm in the road to 4th, I don't find "eating away at even the premises of meditation and practice itself" interesting at all but really confusing and painful
.There's also something interesting. Some part of me keeps investigating (even when I'm not in formal meditation or even noting). Something keeps moving forward. It's irritating because it get's nowhere, no wow experiences, no insight, no concentration, nothing.
Again, thanks for the advice.
Well, I don't think you can compare the mind to a Tesla. It's more like a "transformer".
If you write 20 phone numbers and you memorize them, 3 years later, the paper will still contain those numbers, but you probably won't remember them.
If hard pressed to remember them, you'll probably remember fake numbers (and even believe they are the original numbers).
That said, my guess is that path moments are "learning", more like riding a bike.
3 years later you may be a little "rusty", but you will never forget how to ride a bike.
But again, you won't remember clearly "how" you learnt to ride it.
Now, if you ask me to describe what do I do when I ride a bike vs someone who can't, it's really very difficult. You just do it and another people just can't do it. There is something about the balance, steering, body placement, etc. The same happens when you learn to play an instrument, etc.
And then there are comparisons about who rides the bike "better" and play instruments better, different music styles, etc.
My guess is that meditation is even worse, because, you don't add, you substract. You learn beyond doubt that doing something all the time is painful and stressful (and you'll be able to live without doing it) and you just stop doing it.
We're all human beings here. We make mistakes. It may be the opposite (I might be 3rd path and think I'm below).
Even more, if I can convince you all that I'm 3rd it still doesn't mean I am (or the opposite).
So, getting to the point:
Do you think there are any advantages of having a precise diagnosis?
Other than being able to use that using fancy terms like "emptiness", saying this is this, that is that, like you know what you are talking about.
Like:
"I could feel sensations before they are known in my last meditation session. I couldn't identify them, but feel them grouping together, giving rise to visualizations, memories, thoughts.
I consider emptiness, sensations that aren't known, so they don't have qualities. At some point, the mind can feel the unknown before it becames kwown. The known arises out of the unknown."
That sounded post 1st path.
In any case, if my description of things sounds like scripting, maybe is because it is. I haven't read so much but I did read a lot, and terms, etc do stick.
Just for the record, "I think I am third path but can't get into jhanas and can't move through ñanas with ease":
Also I'm in a stage where I'm not trying to do those things (or maybe evaluating what's happening to me when I judge, doubt, label, etc). At some point I tried and succeded. After "? 2nd ?" path I was able to get to (what I think were) the formless realms for a long time.
Finally, I'm really positive that I'm not 4th, and that I should keep investigating, that should be enough.
Thanks for the "Simple model", I've read MCTB2 but didn't remember that part.
If at some point I do own a Tesla, I don't really care if you think it performs like a bicycle or even if I think it performs like a bicycle.
Now, if everyone (myself included) consider that my Tesla is a bicycle, is it still a Tesla?
Or if I convince everyone (including myself) that my bicycle is a Tesla, is it still a bicycle?
Convincing people requires too much effort. Diagnosis requires too much effort.
Even getting to the jhanas or labeling the cycles requieres too much effort.
Investigation requires too much effort.
And, whats the point? Why do things? Yeah, I can do them, but why do them?
Yeah, to move forward, to have more, to be more. More of what?
I never been anywhere, never had anything, never been someone.
I'll stop rambling now.
If you write 20 phone numbers and you memorize them, 3 years later, the paper will still contain those numbers, but you probably won't remember them.
If hard pressed to remember them, you'll probably remember fake numbers (and even believe they are the original numbers).
That said, my guess is that path moments are "learning", more like riding a bike.
3 years later you may be a little "rusty", but you will never forget how to ride a bike.
But again, you won't remember clearly "how" you learnt to ride it.
Now, if you ask me to describe what do I do when I ride a bike vs someone who can't, it's really very difficult. You just do it and another people just can't do it. There is something about the balance, steering, body placement, etc. The same happens when you learn to play an instrument, etc.
And then there are comparisons about who rides the bike "better" and play instruments better, different music styles, etc.
My guess is that meditation is even worse, because, you don't add, you substract. You learn beyond doubt that doing something all the time is painful and stressful (and you'll be able to live without doing it) and you just stop doing it.
We're all human beings here. We make mistakes. It may be the opposite (I might be 3rd path and think I'm below).
Even more, if I can convince you all that I'm 3rd it still doesn't mean I am (or the opposite).
So, getting to the point:
Do you think there are any advantages of having a precise diagnosis?
Other than being able to use that using fancy terms like "emptiness", saying this is this, that is that, like you know what you are talking about.
Like:
"I could feel sensations before they are known in my last meditation session. I couldn't identify them, but feel them grouping together, giving rise to visualizations, memories, thoughts.
I consider emptiness, sensations that aren't known, so they don't have qualities. At some point, the mind can feel the unknown before it becames kwown. The known arises out of the unknown."
That sounded post 1st path
.In any case, if my description of things sounds like scripting, maybe is because it is. I haven't read so much but I did read a lot, and terms, etc do stick.
Just for the record, "I think I am third path but can't get into jhanas and can't move through ñanas with ease":
Also I'm in a stage where I'm not trying to do those things (or maybe evaluating what's happening to me when I judge, doubt, label, etc). At some point I tried and succeded. After "? 2nd ?" path I was able to get to (what I think were) the formless realms for a long time.
Finally, I'm really positive that I'm not 4th, and that I should keep investigating, that should be enough.
Thanks for the "Simple model", I've read MCTB2 but didn't remember that part.
If at some point I do own a Tesla, I don't really care if you think it performs like a bicycle or even if I think it performs like a bicycle.
Now, if everyone (myself included) consider that my Tesla is a bicycle, is it still a Tesla?
Or if I convince everyone (including myself) that my bicycle is a Tesla, is it still a bicycle?
Convincing people requires too much effort. Diagnosis requires too much effort.
Even getting to the jhanas or labeling the cycles requieres too much effort.
Investigation requires too much effort.
And, whats the point? Why do things? Yeah, I can do them, but why do them?
Yeah, to move forward, to have more, to be more. More of what?
I never been anywhere, never had anything, never been someone.
I'll stop rambling now.
I keep cycling. Most of the time I even know what stage I'm in.
Usually when I begin to "not care about anything" like I'm beyond those things (like letting all go), and the effort vs let go thing, it's probably AP.
I feel really great (like I'm beyond things), writing a lot, things look brighter, etc. Yap, pobably AP.
I do cycle, I just don't cycle in a single sit, moving through the stages, but again, I haven't been trying. I am a little lazy.
I've been trying to notice the sensations, what is happening second to second, maybe because I couldn't notice so fast before (and keep noticing fast for so long).
In this fast noting I found a lot of things about my history, my meditation practice, causality, etc.
Cycling and the jhanas are known territory for my but I never really mastered them.
I'm probably frying myself and your advice about balancing is useful.
Usually when I begin to "not care about anything" like I'm beyond those things (like letting all go), and the effort vs let go thing, it's probably AP.
I feel really great (like I'm beyond things), writing a lot, things look brighter, etc. Yap, pobably AP.
I do cycle, I just don't cycle in a single sit, moving through the stages, but again, I haven't been trying. I am a little lazy.
I've been trying to notice the sensations, what is happening second to second, maybe because I couldn't notice so fast before (and keep noticing fast for so long).
In this fast noting I found a lot of things about my history, my meditation practice, causality, etc.
Cycling and the jhanas are known territory for my but I never really mastered them.
I'm probably frying myself and your advice about balancing is useful
.