OK - I have to give this a shot. I dont have SE yet, been dark nighter for who knows how long. I would be 100% focused on getting SE, but something doesnt feel right.

In the last month, twice, I had what could only be EE's, or PCE light. Each one lasted an hour and the second one was so deep and simple and perfect, natural, and was remembered as 'the way life was' from long ago somehow.. I just cant get over it. Its drawing me back. I'm not sure what the success rate is for someone without SE, but I dont care... Nothing else feels 'right' - peace and happyness feel right, joy of being feels right, vividness of experience and being in the flow feels right, and in all of these places there is less ME. The 'me' really does seem to feed off of negativity somehow, off of finding an unwanted sensation and splitting itself off from the world. It seems to be fairly easy for me to come back to 'now' in a direct and simple way, like waking up from a dream without a dreamer.

No harm in giving it a go, especially when deep down it feels like the only right thing to do somehow, when I turn towards it. I will read as I feel I need to - I dont want to get fuzzy headed reading a thousand pages of stuff, I just want to come back to here.


Last night I played with HAIETMOBA and discovered that it can work in a subtle way, where one repeats the words while not actively trying to answer the question, somehow peeling off a covering on reality as it is continued.. I will try this today as much as I can, and see what happens.

The two EE's I had, the first one was triggered by just 'looking for now in a direct way' , and the second one was by tricking myself into believing that unpleasant sensations were desirable to experience, which fooled me into direct experience and 'pop' there it is.

the negativity isn't separate from the 'me' - it is the 'me', part of what 'i' am

there will always be unpleasant sensations (e.g. physical pain). the problem is the aversion to them (and the clinging to pleasant ones). without the aversion you are free to experience experience as it is.

good luck!

Thanks - what I found was that while somehow early in the day I could do it and started to sense the beauty of life, by the time I got to lunch and tried to sit with the question, my body became a mass of anxiety and aversion, looping faster and faster, like something I was doing was going in the wrong direction - I tried to generate some wonder for the feelings but somehow I couldn't this time. Hmm..

Going to add a tool to the box here since it seems to generate something beneficial

"look for the perfection in the present moment" "how could this moment be perfect?"

Since I already have had the experience, this seems to do something - I will play with this some more.

Sorry I don't have the link. His point was to get to feeling good again and then go back and see what caused your mood to get derailed. Don't sit inside a negative feeling and try to figure it out. That said, there will be times where the negative emotion won't release. From what i understand, only trial and error will help you in these situations since it is usually the case that any realization must be planted and allowed to grow before harvesting. No one sentence or one book will be that planting and growing. Time and experience must do the bulk of the work.






But if one sentence could help then it'd be this one. Also add, "In what way is this moment perfect?" Be child-like. Play where's waldo with perfection. My desk is perfect, see one thing that is perfect about it. This cubicle is perfect, name one thing that is perfect about it.

Can you post one thing that is perfect about your desk or cubicle? I don't know what kind of perfection you're talking about. I don't think the perfection being described is something specific to individual objects. There is nothing necessarily perfect about the desk... As far as I know and have experienced, the perfection is the total absence of affective imperfection/impurities ('me', feelings) being pasted onto the desk (and the rest of the universe). There's no way to run through different objects without giving the exact same answer for each object.

Agreed, for the most part. The 'wheres waldo' analogy was off so there is only one waldo per a picture but what is perfect about your desk is anything you can pinpoint. However, the lack of feelings towards your desk isn't the only thing that makes it perfect. An abundance of felicious feelings will do the same trick.

wow - trying this practice may not go very well with reobservation ... Being torn apart here - anyone have experience with this?

saying that no specific object is perfect - that no particular quality of any object is perfect - is the same as saying nothing is perfect. yet, in actuality, everything is perfect.. meaning every quality of every object is perfect. hence all objects being "extraordinarily ordinary", being right where they should be, no need to do or change anything.

i've been staring at a plastic cup w/ some green veggie juice in it, today. normally quite unremarkable. yet when i gaze at it.. the light is reflecting off of the top. the top is coated with flecks of green here and there. touching it, it has a really smooth feel to it. the juice inside isn't fully homogeneous so it's all swirling about in there. if i shake the cup the liquid moves around in a fun to watch way - how the juice rolls off the side of the plastic cup. i'm not in a PCE but enjoying the cup in that way really causes the cup and everything around it to stand out in a very enjoyable way.

how could i give that answer if i were talking about a desk or a landscape or a person? or looking at the text on this screen? it's all different and unique, yet perfect indeed. saying each object will give the same answer is a lack of naivete - will it, really? have you looked at each object?

a quote from tarin on getting more and more glimpses of perfection:

Unless you mean an abundance of felicity will trigger a PCE then I don't see how feelings could make something perfect. The universe is already perfect in reality - it is pure, untainted by sorrowful or felicitous feelings. It sounds like you mean something like 'excellent' or some feeling of perfection, which is different to the actual perfection (purity) which would be the property of the universe.

i've had troubles with 'dark night' stuff making it hard to be felicitous... my tentative conclusions are:

- there isn't anything special about dark night-caused suffering vs. regular suffering. there are still causes that trigger it.
- what is different is that the state of mind is such that a lot more things annoy it. the mind is really tensed up around itself, and it's hard to untangle it.

what has worked so far? heh im still working on it =P. basically, relaxing.. lots of relaxing. not chasing after the dark night thoughts, calming down.. meditating in a non-intense relaxed way - which might be a bad idea for you currently, i'm not sure, but if you do meditate then focus on shamatha and relaxing and such.

the relaxing will let your mind un-tense and hence stop the reactivity

in particular ill have been really relaxed then start chasing a thought (usually about being more enlightened) and within a few minutes end up just as tense as in the worst of a 'dark night'. i don't really know what is 'dark night' exactly.. i suspect it doesn't have to be as bad as it is but maybe that's the whole point of it - a lesson to be learned.

That's what I mean.

Hmm, this is how I'm thinking about this:

'I' am locked out of the perfection by 'my' very nature. So 'me' asking what's perfect about these objects brings either the immediate experiential answer: nothing... or the same theoretical answer no matter the object: that in actuality, the object/quality is pure.

ah that isn't very helpful is it? how can you use that to go from wherever you are to a PCE?

the theoretical answer doesn't help much as it's the experience that makes the difference.

the experiential answer isn't 'nothing'; the actual experiential answer is 'everything'. it's true, 'i' can't see it in its full perfection, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't do anything about it... there is good reason to focus on one's moment to moment experience to bring about felicitous feelings (i.e. attentiveness) and to catch glimpses of perfection here and there (i.e. sensuousness), as there are degrees one can be locked out of perfection. in a bad mood you are really locked out. in a blissful state you're also locked out, too busy with the bliss to see what's around you. in a low felicitous state perfection can start shining through here and there. in a high felicitous state (i.e an EE) it's quite nice indeed, sensually everything is much cleaner than in a regular state, and you can cultivate that to make that your norm. and from there it's much more likely to chance into a PCE.

Well there you have the difference between perfection and felicity/excellence/happiness.



Maybe you don't use that because that's not the method. I'm not aware of a method of asking what's perfect about a specific object (when 'I' am locked out of perfection) to get to a PCE. But asking what's wonderful, pleasant etc is surely what you mean?

How can the experiential answer be that everything is perfect if you're not experiencing that?

I think the idea was remembering that it is perfect (or was when I had the EE) - and perhaps inclining the mind towards that. Seems to help me at times get more present in that way, as long as I dont try to do it too much.

i meant more the state of mind that what you wrote reflects (to me). (to me) it sounded like "ah i can't see the perfection anyway so why bother trying?" with that mental state, you will get nowhere fast. if that is the mental state you have when applying the actualist method ("'i' am locked out of perfection, oh well"), that might be why it isn't working.

i usually don't ask what's perfect about this or that - i just look around and enjoy it (and things come up that prevent me from that and then i either avoid or deny them (not useful) or get fed up with them if they have kept recurring for a while and do something about them (useful)). but asking what's perfect about this or that might help one to tune into sensuousness (which is what i do when just looking around and enjoying it).


in actuality, everything is perfect. (for an actually free person, everything is perfect.) in actuality, your senses are already experiencing the perfection - but they're being filtered through the self. 'you' don't do anything to see more clearly, per se, 'you' step out of the way so seeing clearly can happen of its own accord (which it is anyway).

as i said in the next sentence, 'i' can't experience that perfection, so then i outlined what one can do about it starting from where one is (which is the only place you can start from).

Well don't worry, that's not why it isn't working and that has never been my attitude.

I was commenting on the practice of asking what is perfect (not excellent, not radiant or wonderful) about specific objects. The live experiential answer is 'nothing' if you're not in a PCE/EE. Other answers can only be theoretical or based on memories - not the live experience.

If we're talking about remembering a past experience, based on my own PCE, the answer for each object is "the fact that in actuality (though not in my current experience) it is pure", same answer for every object in the universe. Why not, then, just instead ask something which incorporates the whole universe into the question. Something like: "How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?"

If asking about specific objects induces sensuousness then that's one thing, but I wanted to be clear about what kind of 'perfection' is being talked about.

ah ok. just a technical point then: the perfection of an object doesn't change depending on whether you're in a PCE. it's just your relation to it that isn't perfect (and never can be) and that is what changes (and eventually goes away to reveal the always-present perfection). (so if you ask "what is perfect about this object?" and you say 'nothing', that's answering "what is perfect about the way i am currently experiencing this object?", which is a different question; and i agree that a better question is "how am i experiencing this moment of being alive?" which might lead to something like "how am i experiencing this object in this moment?")

Yes ok. I wasn't saying the answer 'nothing' was a correct one though. I think of it as a wrong answer rather than the wrong question. 'Nothing is perfect about this object' is the honest, first-hand experiential answer but it's ultimately incorrect.

The better questions are the 'how am I experiencing' ones.

OK - trying to understand the basics of this process: I might have it wrong...

Beginning ideas
1. Deconstruct beliefs causing inability to be happy.
2. Find the wonder in the details of sensate experience
3. Groove in the senses
4. let go into experiential world
5. EE
6. PCE
7. Fall out at any stage above, start over

make sense?

Yesterday I let go - stopped holding something in, so to speak, and felt a deep sense of sorrow arise. I let it sit there for a while and tried to find the belief operating. It was like a deep feeling that I am unhappy with being, with the circumstances of this life.

After a while that went away and was replaced by fear - fear and unacceptance of the fact of the end of this life, of death and the unknown.

This AM finding feelings of worry about wanting to measure up, seeing how much I want to 'place high' on some list, make some kind of grade.

Finding wonder for a few minutes, and a sense of remembering 'ahh *this* - I almost forgot about *this*'

Interesting - just kind of doing the first two steps over and over, in a gentle way this AM, wandering around the Zendo. Had a number of moments of easy clarity of experiencing without that yang sense of trying to stay aware. Realizing I have forgotten how interesting all the content of life can be, the leaves on the ground, the myriad of expressions in a person's face, etc. Just beginning to see that living even a little bit more in this way is what I wanted - not endless energetic DN torture, hours on a cushion, and a sense of constantly trying to get somewhere... Bleh.

got through a half hour sit and getting tired, realizing it would be much easier today to do this work walking around. Think I will go to the beach and wander around with a cup of coffee.

Going to try to read this every day carefully.

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/attentivenesssensuousnessapperceptiveness.htm

*feels* like this practice really builds on itself fast - I look forward to enjoying todays experience!

From an email sent to someone today:

"
What seems to 'work' today/yesterday is a combination of the two things:

asking the question and seeing what 'I' am doing to obscure things, what feelings I add, and looking into beliefs (I still have lots I am finding!)
generating a sense of interest in my immediate surroundings, without even 'trying' to be aware like I used to. I automatically get flashes of a cleaner, more pure awareness, in reality there isnt a sense of 'awareness' as much as I look at something and for a second there is only the object. Not pure, but maybe a step in the right direction? Anyway what I find is if I dont generate that ongoing interest in what is happening now, I wont see clearly the answer to the HAIETMOBA question when I ask it.

I did yesterday while walking on the cliffs at the ocean have a second or two of something clean, with a sense of 'its already perfect without me' while looking out at the ocean waves.

I am starting to understand how this is a 'getting out of the way' and not a 'powering through your stuff to try to be here'. "

Ahh.


From the AF site:

"RESPONDENT: No, on second thought, I think I just don’t get the question. That is, it doesn’t make sense to me. Quote: ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’ The how has got me stumped.

RICHARD: Affectively, of course ... that is how you are experiencing this moment. Look, let us not unnecessarily complicate things here. The ‘how’ simply means ‘what feeling am I experiencing right now with’ ... which is: ‘Am I bored?’, ‘Am I resentful?’, ‘Am I at ease?’, ‘Am I glad?’, ‘Am I sad?’ and so on. You see, peace-on-earth is here right now – the perfection of the infinitude of this universe is happening at this moment – and you are missing out on it because you are feeling what it is like to be here instead of actually being here. Hence: ‘How am I experiencing this moment’ means ‘What feeling is preventing the on-going experiencing of peace-on-earth?’ It is essential for success to grasp the fact that this is your only moment of being alive. The past, although it did happen, is not actual now. The future, though it will happen, is not actual now. Only now is actual. Yesterday’s happiness and harmlessness does not mean a thing if one is miserable and malicious now ... and a hoped-for happiness and harmlessness tomorrow is to but waste this moment of being alive in waiting. All you get by waiting is more waiting. Thus any ‘change’ can only happen now. The jumping in point is always here ... it is at this moment in time and this place in space. Thus, if you miss it this time around, hey presto ... you have another chance immediately. Life is excellent at providing opportunities like this."


- Hadn't quite thought of it *that* way. Tried it once or twice, looked at what feeling I was adding on, and I really *did* see how silly it was to be lying there on the couch making sour feelings by thinking about how I wasn't a good enough person (one of my habits). I dont recall ever having that sort of insight, where something is seen as silly.

'knowledge of sillyness'

'When the yogi enters the knowledge of sillyness nana, things that were previously held as unquestionable truth are seen, perhaps necessarily over and over again, to be silly. It is common for yogis to experience laughter when looking at themselves, or at least a smirk or two. It is important for a yogi to stay in this stage as long as possible, to allow proper (un)development to take place.'

-Edit .. wow. This leads to the next insight, " 'I' am my feelings and my feelings are 'me' "
I couldnt make any sense of that before.

Found this jewel by Tarin:

"it's what the very first instant of seeing/hearing/touching/etc is commonly like before it is (also commonly) intuited to be observed from somewhere else (usually a somewhere 'within')."

That seems to really get at the crux of it, experientially. Forgot how to do this today and this quote helps remember. I will have to print this out and post it up somewhere.

I am also starting to think that really reading the entire AF site, carefully, understanding and digesting each word therein, may indeed be very, very helpful.

Yes, or just the issues you're trying to understand like fostering naivete etc.

Another one putting it here for my own benefit...

"apperceptive awareness comes about though attentiveness (heedfulness). attentiveness (heedfulness) comes about through sensuousness (literal, rather than figurative, ardency[1]). sensuousness (ardency) comes about through pure intent (resolve). pure intent (resolve) comes about through sincerity."

- During yoga last night I started generating interest in my surroundings, like a 'curiosity metta', and that seemed to help establish the senses closer to the forefront of perception. Then I started to look for that moment of perception that occurs before one intuits the sense of it being perceived. After a few minutes, at the end of class lying in shivasana I had a moment so pure for a second in duration that only the sound existed - it was pure perfection and afterwards I was filled with the feeling of 'thats all that matters'. For a while afterwards things were naturally more clear. Not sure if that was EE/PCE but *wow*. There was alot of energy in the neck afterwards, and in the whole body, like an A&P, but not during. During it was just...pure.

found this immensly useful:
"
From Craig N:

Try this:
1. Foster the feeling of enjoyment of this very moment of being alive. Concentrate on the senses, paying them exclusive attention. The feeling of enjoyment is a diffuse warmth which spreads throughout your body.

2. Foster fascination. What a miracle it is to be alive as a self-reflective human being. What a curiosity, to gaze out these eyes, to think and reflect. Being here right now is truly fascinating.

3. Now pay attention to your minds awareness of itself. This is a reflexive action of mind, awareness watching awareness.

Strong feelings (any issues whatsoever) will interfere your ability to trigger a PCE. So deal with those first until you feel fine. "