AF 3 week solitary retreat report - Discussion
AF 3 week solitary retreat report
richard weeden, modified 13 Years ago at 5/22/11 4:23 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/22/11 4:23 PM
AF 3 week solitary retreat report
Posts: 7 Join Date: 1/16/10 Recent Posts
Here is a report of a 21 day solitary retreat I got back from a couple of days ago. During the retreat I attempted to practice the AF method exclusively. I thought it would be of interest to the forum as I have noticed a few posts where people have said they were interested in practicing on retreat.
A little practice background about me: 12 years Buddhist shamata and vipassana. MTCTB 1st path 4.5 years ago (though no contact with MTCTB then) 4th Path at the end of last summer (contact with Kenneth Folk at the same time – he ‘confirmed’ path) some dawdling and confusion since then, though intensive meditation on Diamond Sutra had a strong insight effect a few months ago. Don’t work much due to health condition, so very spacious, and low income life-style compared to most. Some PCE type experiences over the years.
Usual retreat habits. Meditation during all waking hours, and no reading. On this one still no reading, but no formal sessions – lots more time spent outside in nature hanging out and walking slowly. Or sitting around in my caravan.
I was able to stick to the AF method for the retreat apart from two days of metta practice after about 12 days when my health and sleep took a tumble and I couldn’t get back to feeling good by reflecting on it.
Also I experience very disturbed nights and had a tendency to fall into cycling mode when lying around tossing and turning in the dark.
I used HAIETMOBA throughout retreat: the general effect of this was pulling me out of either gross self-absorption which pointed me to reflect on what was getting in the way, or pulled me straight out of more subtle absorption into apperception. Whenever I could I grooved on senses.
I was very taken by the method. I felt that Richard had provided a real insight when he talks about how zazen/self-inquiry practices hide the self again as awareness (they turn awareness or being into a god). I felt by using the method I was moving onto a new investigation of non-being which felt different. I developed a strong conviction that meditating or any meditative state would be a kind of escape. I spent nearly all my waking hours eyes open.
I had maybe 15 or so PCE type experiences which lasted over an hour each. Most of the rest of the time I was in EE. I became much more demanding about what I was taking to be a PCE. I had one hour of such mind-blowing purity it set a kind of gold standard. I think there are lots of different shades of EE/PCE.
I think a good way to to describe the AF approach is: to promote (and remove anything that blocks) a kind of affectless wonder.
In the first ten days I found it useful as well as sense-grooving to question the purity of any state, hunting down any hint of affect. In the second ten days I was mainly just grooving and trusting and investigating less. In the last few days and since I have been largely unconcerned with EEs or PCEs and have just been hanging out letting something do its thing.
On a few occasions i experienced very intense fear. And often more general pit of stomach fear. I used the AF method to question these and after a fairly short while they resolved. Acknowledgeing the fear, seeing at as getting in the way of happiness and then intensifying sensuousness seemed to work.I often had pressure in the base of the skull, some times in the temples and sometimes about three inches forward of the crown chakra. At times a sense of openness coming out from the base of the skull. I also experienced yawning fits a bit like non-self fruitions, but with a release in the chest, not the hara.
At a content level: two interesting developments. My spiritual sub-personalities (devotee, yogi, etc) paraded before me and became increasingly seen as suffering and in the end of little interest (killing the Buddha/Christ/teacher etc). One of the main ones of these was whether I should be cultivating compassion. This led to reflection on the altruistic aspect of AF motivation – which I saw much more clearly, and think in some ways was the most important gain from the retreat. I now know what I’m doing and why.
Some general points about intensive AF practice/practice in general:
Can’t go at it like hardcore zen/vipassana – needs to be much more open and playful and filled with mistakes, more like a kind of loose jazz. May need time off if you get too tight. Wandering around drinking tea.
Reflective stuff about method comes through naturally. Don’t have to push for it.
Nature was very conducive.
Eyes closed you can groove on the back of the eye-lids, and check for vibrations in the body.
You can let it do itself after a while.
You can agree to your own death. This is really worth pondering as it really clarifies the purpose of the method.
AF/Buddhist comparisons can be a painful distraction (am I anagami yet?!! Is that conceit?!!).
Remembering PCE to trigger PCE: helps to move out of effort and stopped settling down too much in EE?
Fell asleep in PCE and woke up in it a couple of hours later, but they were always gone morning.
At the end of the retreat due to a medical condition I had to take a sleeping tablet which has thrown me a bit, and I have felt quite ill with quite a lot of physical symptoms. However, there is now a deep clarity again which seems to expand out from the base of the skull and I have experienced no reactive feelings (though some non-emotional groans and sighs). No claims, but what an amazing thing AF could be. To be sick and one day dying and not to suffer. What joy that would be.
A little practice background about me: 12 years Buddhist shamata and vipassana. MTCTB 1st path 4.5 years ago (though no contact with MTCTB then) 4th Path at the end of last summer (contact with Kenneth Folk at the same time – he ‘confirmed’ path) some dawdling and confusion since then, though intensive meditation on Diamond Sutra had a strong insight effect a few months ago. Don’t work much due to health condition, so very spacious, and low income life-style compared to most. Some PCE type experiences over the years.
Usual retreat habits. Meditation during all waking hours, and no reading. On this one still no reading, but no formal sessions – lots more time spent outside in nature hanging out and walking slowly. Or sitting around in my caravan.
I was able to stick to the AF method for the retreat apart from two days of metta practice after about 12 days when my health and sleep took a tumble and I couldn’t get back to feeling good by reflecting on it.
Also I experience very disturbed nights and had a tendency to fall into cycling mode when lying around tossing and turning in the dark.
I used HAIETMOBA throughout retreat: the general effect of this was pulling me out of either gross self-absorption which pointed me to reflect on what was getting in the way, or pulled me straight out of more subtle absorption into apperception. Whenever I could I grooved on senses.
I was very taken by the method. I felt that Richard had provided a real insight when he talks about how zazen/self-inquiry practices hide the self again as awareness (they turn awareness or being into a god). I felt by using the method I was moving onto a new investigation of non-being which felt different. I developed a strong conviction that meditating or any meditative state would be a kind of escape. I spent nearly all my waking hours eyes open.
I had maybe 15 or so PCE type experiences which lasted over an hour each. Most of the rest of the time I was in EE. I became much more demanding about what I was taking to be a PCE. I had one hour of such mind-blowing purity it set a kind of gold standard. I think there are lots of different shades of EE/PCE.
I think a good way to to describe the AF approach is: to promote (and remove anything that blocks) a kind of affectless wonder.
In the first ten days I found it useful as well as sense-grooving to question the purity of any state, hunting down any hint of affect. In the second ten days I was mainly just grooving and trusting and investigating less. In the last few days and since I have been largely unconcerned with EEs or PCEs and have just been hanging out letting something do its thing.
On a few occasions i experienced very intense fear. And often more general pit of stomach fear. I used the AF method to question these and after a fairly short while they resolved. Acknowledgeing the fear, seeing at as getting in the way of happiness and then intensifying sensuousness seemed to work.I often had pressure in the base of the skull, some times in the temples and sometimes about three inches forward of the crown chakra. At times a sense of openness coming out from the base of the skull. I also experienced yawning fits a bit like non-self fruitions, but with a release in the chest, not the hara.
At a content level: two interesting developments. My spiritual sub-personalities (devotee, yogi, etc) paraded before me and became increasingly seen as suffering and in the end of little interest (killing the Buddha/Christ/teacher etc). One of the main ones of these was whether I should be cultivating compassion. This led to reflection on the altruistic aspect of AF motivation – which I saw much more clearly, and think in some ways was the most important gain from the retreat. I now know what I’m doing and why.
Some general points about intensive AF practice/practice in general:
Can’t go at it like hardcore zen/vipassana – needs to be much more open and playful and filled with mistakes, more like a kind of loose jazz. May need time off if you get too tight. Wandering around drinking tea.
Reflective stuff about method comes through naturally. Don’t have to push for it.
Nature was very conducive.
Eyes closed you can groove on the back of the eye-lids, and check for vibrations in the body.
You can let it do itself after a while.
You can agree to your own death. This is really worth pondering as it really clarifies the purpose of the method.
AF/Buddhist comparisons can be a painful distraction (am I anagami yet?!! Is that conceit?!!).
Remembering PCE to trigger PCE: helps to move out of effort and stopped settling down too much in EE?
Fell asleep in PCE and woke up in it a couple of hours later, but they were always gone morning.
At the end of the retreat due to a medical condition I had to take a sleeping tablet which has thrown me a bit, and I have felt quite ill with quite a lot of physical symptoms. However, there is now a deep clarity again which seems to expand out from the base of the skull and I have experienced no reactive feelings (though some non-emotional groans and sighs). No claims, but what an amazing thing AF could be. To be sick and one day dying and not to suffer. What joy that would be.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 5/22/11 5:34 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/22/11 5:34 PM
RE: AF 3 week solitary retreat report
Posts: 3293 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Postsadam ,, modified 13 Years ago at 5/22/11 6:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/22/11 6:53 PM
RE: AF 3 week solitary retreat report
Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/19/11 Recent Posts
I'm thinking of doing a one or two week retreat.
During the retreat were you trying not to think? Or were you contemplating and investigating all the time?
Would you suggest trying for an unbroken period of pure attentiveness, thoughtlessness, and agendalesslness or a more contemplative reflective type thing?
During the retreat were you trying not to think? Or were you contemplating and investigating all the time?
Would you suggest trying for an unbroken period of pure attentiveness, thoughtlessness, and agendalesslness or a more contemplative reflective type thing?
richard weeden, modified 13 Years ago at 5/26/11 3:43 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/25/11 5:17 PM
RE: AF 3 week solitary retreat report
Posts: 7 Join Date: 1/16/10 Recent Posts
Hi Adam,
I think this is very good question, and one that has interested (plagued?) me since my vipassana/self inquiry days. In retrospect I can see my use of thinking and reflection was quite varied on the retreat and had different degrees of subtlety. I think I can get it down into three broad categories: all three were in a dynamic relationship with intensifying/returning to sensuousness, and I moved between these two things: thinking and sensuousness.
Thinking 1)
On the retreat I basically tried to apply the AF method which was
1) ask HAIETMOBA (thinking)
2) be aware of response
a) nothing wrong so go straight to sensuousness
or b)sense of something missing, resistance, or something else - at which point I would subtly label (or note) it with a single thought
3) be aware of response
a) if gone go to sensousness
b) if not use thought (question: is what I'm getting out of this better than enjoying present moment?)
4) be aware of response
a) if gone go to sensuousness
b) if still present use thought (question: eg: what is it to be feeling fear? and follow through with directed and intuitive thinking for example: what is the cause of this fear? on what basis does it arise? on the basis of being. if I want to remove the fear I must remove the being - the being is the fear and the fear is the being.
Hopefully this will give you some idea: basically the more solid and coherent the obstacle to simply enjoying from the eyes, ears and body the more strong and directed the questioning and thinking.
This if you like was one kind of thinking I used when employing the method from moment to moment. I think it should be fairly flexible, intuitive and responsive, and i found it very helpful to remember there is no perfect way of doing the method - you just keep trying it out from moment to moment.
Thinking 2)
I also used another kind of thinking questioning which was to try and challenge myself so I didn't settle down into EE and miss the purity of the PCE: this was to question is this pure? or is this perfect? or is there affect? I found this useful if I started to stray or drift back into affect, (and I was often dipping in and out of affect).
Thinking 3)
I alluded to another kind of thinking in my post which was around motivations for trying to attain AF and deeper insights into the benefits of the self-dissolving. This I suspect just kind of happens as long as you are fairly familiar with the AF material, but I reckon it is probably as important part of the method as the moment to moment HAIETMOBA. I was just looking around. I saw lambs fighting clashing heads and realised it was in me, I experienced moments of contraction and fear about not having enough, and it just becomes more and more apparent as the days went on we are all about survival. So its more like we carry the themes round inside us and when the time is right they come out and clarity starts to dawn. I think this a spontaneous process and won't work if forced. Just have the concepts as deeply as you can and they will start to come out right I reckon.
If you have an opportunity to do a retreat go for it. It's the best thing I've done and really deepened the understanding of the method quickly.
I think this is very good question, and one that has interested (plagued?) me since my vipassana/self inquiry days. In retrospect I can see my use of thinking and reflection was quite varied on the retreat and had different degrees of subtlety. I think I can get it down into three broad categories: all three were in a dynamic relationship with intensifying/returning to sensuousness, and I moved between these two things: thinking and sensuousness.
Thinking 1)
On the retreat I basically tried to apply the AF method which was
1) ask HAIETMOBA (thinking)
2) be aware of response
a) nothing wrong so go straight to sensuousness
or b)sense of something missing, resistance, or something else - at which point I would subtly label (or note) it with a single thought
3) be aware of response
a) if gone go to sensousness
b) if not use thought (question: is what I'm getting out of this better than enjoying present moment?)
4) be aware of response
a) if gone go to sensuousness
b) if still present use thought (question: eg: what is it to be feeling fear? and follow through with directed and intuitive thinking for example: what is the cause of this fear? on what basis does it arise? on the basis of being. if I want to remove the fear I must remove the being - the being is the fear and the fear is the being.
Hopefully this will give you some idea: basically the more solid and coherent the obstacle to simply enjoying from the eyes, ears and body the more strong and directed the questioning and thinking.
This if you like was one kind of thinking I used when employing the method from moment to moment. I think it should be fairly flexible, intuitive and responsive, and i found it very helpful to remember there is no perfect way of doing the method - you just keep trying it out from moment to moment.
Thinking 2)
I also used another kind of thinking questioning which was to try and challenge myself so I didn't settle down into EE and miss the purity of the PCE: this was to question is this pure? or is this perfect? or is there affect? I found this useful if I started to stray or drift back into affect, (and I was often dipping in and out of affect).
Thinking 3)
I alluded to another kind of thinking in my post which was around motivations for trying to attain AF and deeper insights into the benefits of the self-dissolving. This I suspect just kind of happens as long as you are fairly familiar with the AF material, but I reckon it is probably as important part of the method as the moment to moment HAIETMOBA. I was just looking around. I saw lambs fighting clashing heads and realised it was in me, I experienced moments of contraction and fear about not having enough, and it just becomes more and more apparent as the days went on we are all about survival. So its more like we carry the themes round inside us and when the time is right they come out and clarity starts to dawn. I think this a spontaneous process and won't work if forced. Just have the concepts as deeply as you can and they will start to come out right I reckon.
If you have an opportunity to do a retreat go for it. It's the best thing I've done and really deepened the understanding of the method quickly.
adam ,, modified 13 Years ago at 5/25/11 8:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/25/11 8:49 PM
RE: AF 3 week solitary retreat report
Posts: 105 Join Date: 2/19/11 Recent Posts
sounds good, thanks for the thoughtful answer
what I've been struggling with is this: Is there value in seeing affective response as silly/irrational other than it allows you to get back to feeling good? I can dismiss absolutely any affective response (at least recently, not too many life tragedies) without any resistance, if I have a twang it just takes me about half a second to dismiss it as a 'real' world issue, one that only exists because I'm imposing my inner world and self on the actual world. I don't need to repeat the argument to myself, and I get back to feeling good. Am I sacrificing something? Is there some other value to the repeated investigation? Is there any value to being very specific about what that 'real' world problem is, and what belief it stems from intrinsically? or is it all just a way to get back to being aimed at PCE?
anyone who's got some thoughts on this, they'd be appreciated.
thanks, adam
what I've been struggling with is this: Is there value in seeing affective response as silly/irrational other than it allows you to get back to feeling good? I can dismiss absolutely any affective response (at least recently, not too many life tragedies) without any resistance, if I have a twang it just takes me about half a second to dismiss it as a 'real' world issue, one that only exists because I'm imposing my inner world and self on the actual world. I don't need to repeat the argument to myself, and I get back to feeling good. Am I sacrificing something? Is there some other value to the repeated investigation? Is there any value to being very specific about what that 'real' world problem is, and what belief it stems from intrinsically? or is it all just a way to get back to being aimed at PCE?
anyone who's got some thoughts on this, they'd be appreciated.
thanks, adam
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 5/26/11 8:26 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/26/11 8:26 AM
RE: AF 3 week solitary retreat report
Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Postsadam j. hunter:
sounds good, thanks for the thoughtful answer
what I've been struggling with is this: Is there value in seeing affective response as silly/irrational other than it allows you to get back to feeling good? I can dismiss absolutely any affective response (at least recently, not too many life tragedies) without any resistance, if I have a twang it just takes me about half a second to dismiss it as a 'real' world issue, one that only exists because I'm imposing my inner world and self on the actual world. I don't need to repeat the argument to myself, and I get back to feeling good. Am I sacrificing something? Is there some other value to the repeated investigation? Is there any value to being very specific about what that 'real' world problem is, and what belief it stems from intrinsically? or is it all just a way to get back to being aimed at PCE?
anyone who's got some thoughts on this, they'd be appreciated.
thanks, adam
what I've been struggling with is this: Is there value in seeing affective response as silly/irrational other than it allows you to get back to feeling good? I can dismiss absolutely any affective response (at least recently, not too many life tragedies) without any resistance, if I have a twang it just takes me about half a second to dismiss it as a 'real' world issue, one that only exists because I'm imposing my inner world and self on the actual world. I don't need to repeat the argument to myself, and I get back to feeling good. Am I sacrificing something? Is there some other value to the repeated investigation? Is there any value to being very specific about what that 'real' world problem is, and what belief it stems from intrinsically? or is it all just a way to get back to being aimed at PCE?
anyone who's got some thoughts on this, they'd be appreciated.
thanks, adam
can read this convo, relevant quote:
trent:
the investigation is only necessary if something is getting in the way of the sensuousness