Hi Everyone,

I am new here. I feel like I don't belong  because I have none of the attaintments but I am here because I could use ssome help. I have been meditating for almost 7 years vipassna/shamatha style and my major issue is that nothing has happened. I know I am not supposed to expect anything but 7 years? I havve had no moments of insight nor the supposed byproducts like clam, stress reduction, bliss,etc. I started meditating with IMS and vippasana and a few years ago switched to Tibetan with my teacher Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, under which I am studying the Bardo of Death.

I just upped my meditation tme to one hour. I have trouble accepting the present moment so I feel I manipulate my meditation experience because it is not the experience I expect or want. I have a hard time sensing the breath. It is really faint so I maniplulate it slightly to really feel it at the abdominal area.I am now used Sam Harris super meditation app Waking Up, which has me asking the right questions like "who is thinking that thought?" Of course I don't come with anyone or a self but I am not sure I am really experiencing that understanding physically. I was so inspired reading DanielIngram's book. I would like to achieve A&P. Does anyone have any tips for me, teachers, books, or retreats? Any help would be appreciated.


Sam

Hi Sam,

I'm sorry to hear about your 7 years of famine, but it is an auspicious number ...  

You could try investigating your resistance to accepting the present moment, but it sounds like you might be a bit vipassan'ed out.

It sounds like your practice could do with a bit more pleasure and enjoyment. I'm just going to refer you to a post I made yesterday which outlines something you could try. Let us know how you get on if you like.

All the best
agnostic

Your first step is to talk to your teacher about your expectations and not having them met. Presumably, that person knows your practice far better than we strangers here. Have you done that? If not, why not? Do you talk to your teacher one-on-one? Is it face to face, video, or phone?

I meditated on and off for about 12 years without seeing much progress, but I was doing 20-30 minutes a session and with lots of gaps between days. Whe I finally decided to put in consistent practice I started to see progress with concentration including what I'm starting to believe was entering a jhana for the first time. During my first short retreat I hit the A&P which was a BIG change. I'm now doing about an hour every day with maybe a missed day once or twice a month. It takes time to see the progress, but I have certainly progressed more in the last 9 months than I did in the previous 12 years.

Consistency and duration have a big effect. Retreats are great for that reason. Lots of options for retreats, depending on what you are looking for.

I don't get to talk directly to Mingyur Rinpoche as he is an international traveling llama but I had a interview with one of his assistants who said "Maybe I think not much has changed but probably in reality something has changed. Don't worry about Bliss. Those are just by-products. Main thing is wisdom and compassion. You can explore other kinds of practices like Compassion. Shift your prespective "The View" of trying to fix yourself. Seeing that you are trying to fix yourself again is a huge insight. Perspective has to be I'm OK now and there is nothing to fix." This was by phone.

I figured as much from Googling Mingyur Rinpoche. A busy person, no doubt.

Are you envious of what you read here from vipassana practitioners? The reason you practice is important. I have to assume you chose Mingyur Rinpoche as your teacher for a reason a few years ago. Do you recall what that reason was? Was it lack of progress like you're expressing here now? Are you sure you're interested in changing back to vipassana practice as it's described in MCTB?

It seems you've bounced around from this to that a bit. What do you really and truly want from your practice?

That is some serious persistence sticking with this for 7 years - you could go a long way if you found something that actually worked for you!!! Telling you something has changed when your experience has not changed sounds like a brush-off. I hope you are not paying for this ...

I am envious about what I read here from vipassana practioners. But I perfer the Tibetan teachings as there is a lot more to them,  a rich depth. I choose Mingyur Rinpoche as a teacher because such a famous teacher was available online. The things I have learned have been very valauble but not the meditation which is really a style of Mahamudra. I am interested in coming back to vipassana practice as its described in MCTB along with some Tibetan teachings.

I truly and really want the peace and the end of suffering from my practice.

7 years never missed a day. So the consistency is there. Have upped the time from 20 minutes to an hour. Just got to get to more retreats.

You don't want to be a greedy wannabe Bodhisttva, amigo.  Listen to your Rinpoche, ease up on yourself, and cultivate metta for the next seven eons.

Welcome to this sangha, my Sam of the Nations. Check out the retreat journal of Smiling Stone, and maybe even drop in on his thread and disturb him at his meditation--- he took the bodhisattva vow LAST LIFE and still doesn't have shit to show for it.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19545531

Tim, I wasn't trying to show off. I just was simply replying to an earlier post where someone said it was a lck of consistency problem for him.

Tim, I don't understand the rest of your post. It sounds like you are being sarcastic?

Chris? How do I get started if I wanted to go back to Vipassana?

Tim is trying to inject some light-heartedness into the situation. Taking it all too seriously is sure to make it a grind. 

Sam, forgive me. I never had a thought that you were trying to show off! If anything, you are overly modest.

I think the main point I was trying to make was that on a bodhisattva path, what possible hurry could there be? It is almost the point of the whole thing: this path takes forever, because you share the suffering with every soul. As long as any sentient being suffers, that suffering is yours. Open up you heart a crack, and it is flooded with pain. You've put in seven years on opening your heart bit by bit, dealing with your own issues as they arise, and always turning back to the thought and hope and commitment to the welfare of all sentient beings.

It may seem flippant, but i am dead serious. Do you know the old Buddhist story of the bird with the silk handkerchief? That bird flies around and around the earth, handkerchief in its beak. On every circuit, it flies over the top of Everest, the highest mountain, and drags the handerkerchief across the top of the mountain. It is said that for as long as it takes for that bird's silk handkerchief to wear down that mountain, is how long it will take for this work to be done. Our meditations and deeds are that handkerchief and that bird. What's it to us, as long we can get into the air at all? There can be no hurry in such a work. There is only that heart opening a bit at a time, to the pain that keeps all beings flying.

Is there a way to get Daniel Ingram to look at this post/situation? Thanks for all your replies

Noting 1-10 sensations per second would be a good start and minimum of 45 minutes per daily sit. Keep a consistent daily practice as best as you can. 
If you loose mindfulness too often and get lost in scenarioo spinning thoughts and fantasies too much do Noting Aloud where you aloud speak the label like;
if hearing a bird then note aloud "hearing" if you also notice the knowing that its a bird then note aloud "comprehanding" and if you notice an image of a bird on your mind then note aloud as "imagining" and if you notice a feeling connected with all this the note it aloud as "pleasant or unpleasant or neutral" if again you noitce some body sensation like itch note it aloud like "itching" then "unpleasant" and so on until the timer rings 45 minutes or longer or shorter in case 45 minutes is too long. 

Hi, Sam.

If I were you I'd find a vipassana teacher and start there. It could be someone you can meet with face to face (my preference) or it could be someone you meet online using Skype or Zoom (my second choice). If you want a recommendation for someone who can meet with you online I can do that, so if you're interested please private message me here on DhO*.

Otherwise, you can pick up two books I can very much recommend, and read them thoroughly:

1. Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, 2nd Edition, by Daniel Ingram
2. Seeing that Frees, by Rob Burbea



<* No, Papa Che, it's not Kenneth Folk>

It's cracking me up to think of shargrol as an OLD DhO poster  

Oh in that case I might PM you also at some stage  

LOL I'll have to think another way to introduce Shargrol then! Since you already answered Sam, I found my post redundant so I deleted it. 

 

Just want to point out that not everyone here claims to have attainments, so there is no need to feel like you don't belong. 

The Most Honored and Most Handsome King of the Monkeys is in this instance, and without any attainment certification whatsoever, simply as a great guy here, among other great guys trying to have a decent life in this hellhole before we sicken, age, and die (if we're lucky; just die, if not, but who knows what luck means at thatpointbutidigress)--- HMK is, i avow, entirely correct.

Hi Sam! The amount of years, the amount of time per sit, and the quality of practice are all important factors.

If you have been doing mostly short sits, it's possible that you aren't getting out of your comfort zone. Your recent increase to an hour a day might help. In the future, you can try going on retreat too. It usually takes about 30 minutes to 45 minutes for the mind to get to it's "cutting edge" and then the last 15 minutes of sitting is where new stuff gets discovered. It's fairly common for people to sit for 20 minutes a day and --- while it can be good for general well being -- it doesn't necessarily provide deeper insights into the way the mind works.

The quality of practice is important, too. You need to find something that you really want to explore and work on during your sits. Simply sitting down and not doing anything in particular won't lead to progress... otherwise, everyone that sits on a bus or train to go to work would be enlightened.   And chickens would be the most enlightened beings of all!

So you have to find some aspect of your mind that you want to investigate and improve. When I got started, I was most interested in emotional reactions and tibetian tantra was the most interesting thing. I think this stuff was what got me hooked: http://arobuddhism.org/articles/embracing-emotions-as-the-path.html   And so I spent my sitting practice investigating how confused emotions clouded my mind, but also how reactions could be transformed into their enlightened/empowered aspect:

A feeling of insignificance could be transformed to acceptance/equanmity
Fear could be transformed into clarity
Loneliness could be transformed into compassion
Anxiety could be transformed into confidence
Depression could be transformed into intelligence

This idea was really exciting to me. By sitting with the first emotion, it could be transformed into the better state if I didn't run away from it or try to avoid it. Cool! Now I had a sitting practice with a purpose and I could use my negative mindstates like weights in a gym to get stronger.

So finding an exciting practice, something that really calls out to you, is really important.

What sort of practices have you explored? What do you want to try? What aspect of your mind/psychology do you want to work on?

Thank you so much Tim!

So, that's the way I'll proceed then. Thanks. I do need that recomendation of a teacher that I can meet with online but I have no idea of how to private message you . I have Daniel's book on KIndle and I'll get the other one.


Thanks so much!

>>What sort of practices have you explored? What do you want to try? What aspect of your mind/psychology do you want to work on?

I am beginning to understand that the long sits matter. I have explorered both Vipassana and Tibetan Shamatha as well as certain practices of the Tibetan Vajrayana including a taste of Mahamudra. Lately I have returned to straight Vipassna. I want to try recognizing Not Self and Arising and Passing. Also working on the aspect of my mind that won't settle in the present moment, the one thats always trying to generate or think of a future moment because of disatisfaction with the present,

An important part of retraining the mind is to allow it to learn for itself.

A really simple practice for developing presence in the current moment is to simply sit and on every outbreath notice where your mind is and note either Present, Past, or Future. Very simple. Don't try to change anything or force anything. Just help the mind teach itself by giving it good feedback. It sounds very simple, but you might be surprised on what it reveals!

Good idea! I'll try it today. Thanks!

Same, you can message me in DhO by using the Message" function. Open and view the file attached to this post.

I can't get it to work. Uner Recieient it wants your email address, not your name which I have tried.

Well, now I know that about every 3 breaths causes a Future outbreath. Many of the thoughts were actually of here and reporting back.

Chris I tested this messaging on DhO right now and indeed I can not find you as Chris Marti so to select you. Your name does not exist in the list. Do you have another name here maybe?

Thanks for your post. I'll increase the noting I already do. My only question is there an advantage to noting aloud? I always have been taught  that the noting should be silent in the mind.

EDIT:  Sam, I just sent you a message. You were not easy to find, however  

You need to go to user profile (click on user name which is a link), then copy user login from URL (it's between web/ and /home) and then paste it into Recepients. If nothing happens then delete last character or something. User full name should show up.

Sam, glad you're asking questions about how to develop a vipassina/noting practice here. It's a great way to get feedback from a lot of experienced meditators. As you can see in the other topics, many people will post the details of their sits (how long, what method, what seemed to work, what didn't) and they will ask questions about their practice. It is also a good way to stay accountable, to document daily practice.

There are many versions of noting practice, but noting out loud is a proven way to make sure we are bringing enough attention into the practice. It's very easy to sorta mentally note but not be clear about it. 

It's definitely worth experiementing for a week with out loud noting and see how it goes. Looking forward to hearing how it goes for you.

shargrol, only Quick Reply works here with small messages so I wanted to add here that I read your writeup on Noting practice and I added Out Loud Noting to my meditations 2 days ago. So far, it has been helping me increase mindfulness of objects and seems to lessen discursive thoughts. A winner.

good! Keep that up for another seven years, now!

I suggest reading the maha- satipatthana sutta and practicing the brahmaviharas as well. Read the actual words of the Buddha in the tipitaka.

In my experience, the narrow focus in being aware of the breath in the belly causes mind fog and sleepiness. It also causes me to ejaculate during sleep later that night. No wonder you haven't made any progress in 7 years.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html



When this was said, King Ajatasattu said to the Blessed One: "Well, then, lord, I am now taking leave. Many are my duties, many my responsibilities."

"Then do, great king, what you think it is now time to do."When this was said, King Ajatasattu said to the Blessed One: "Well, then, lord, I am now taking leave. Many are my duties, many my responsibilities."

"Then do, great king, what you think it is now time to do."

So King Ajatasattu, delighting and rejoicing in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and — after circumambulating him — left. Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.

Ha ha! Seriously seven years until what milestone? A&P?

I'll try to read it but in general reading suttas is is a surefire way to put me to sleep because of all the repetition. No breathing meditation? So, I'm here to improve my meditation techniques and get results on the stages of insight as laid out in Daniel's book. I have two Buddhist courses outside of here if I want to study suttas.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

I suggest reading the main instruction suttas repeatedly and practice accordingly. 

Three Characteristics, you ambitious, headlong, rash and hasty maniac. Lay a fucking groundwork, will ya?

love, tim

Hey Tim,

I have a question on Out Loud Noting. I just had an excellent 60 min sit with excellent mindfulness. Part of my noting was a lawnmower sound consistently for about a 1/2 hour among other things because it was an sound object that was present during my meditation. Is that right to do? Thanks.

As a barely worthy of the name student of the resident master of Noting Aloud, Papa Che, himself the barely worthy of the name student of Kenneth Folks, and so on back to the Buddha himself, I feel utterly unqualified to answer this question.

However, the answer is hell yes. 

Tim,
I was going to ask you another question on noting. Daniel was very kind to meet with me on Skype yesterday and while leaving the private parts out, wanted me to start on this new ath by "noting all my sensations as fast as I can" and "Need to push the baud rate of capture." He said this really highly level of noting would put me on the path automatically.

I went to do my 1 hour sit today with Out LOud Noting and realized I pretty quickly ran out of words to use for noting. However, I did find a ton of them in the book Practical Insight Meditation which pretty much has it all.

In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.

lol, truly, sam, i am the last person to give you much in the way of guidance on noting. There are so many people here really qualified, expert, and masters of the nuances. Afer what I was able to glean from MCTB2, it was Chris Marti and Papa Che here who taught me anything at all I know about viapssana. This place has more great vipassana practioners than a fleabag hotel has fleas. They note every itch, exquisitely. 

Thank you. This was suggested to me (for another reason) just last night.

I didn't know. You were answering my questions. Do you do something different than Vipassana?

I was encouraging you in your practice, most of the time, if you look it over here. The one specific "vipassana" answer i gave was a slam dunk. I have practiced in a number of traditions over the years, and currently identify on my job applications as a contemplative member of a little splinter sect of Judaism sometimes called The Way, sometimes called Christianity. One thing i have done relentlessly over that time is to attend to the breath, a common thread in all traditions. But really, for real rubber-meets-the-road vipassana guidance, try checking out Papa Che's wonderfully helpful https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19872769 , in which he uses the noting aloud technique. Watching those videos of him is a great way to start to get a sense of the working vocabulary of a great noting technique.

Also, you can never go wrong with shargrol:  https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#transitiontoeq 

And as i said, it was Chris Marti who gave me my first real taste of an approach to vipassana practice here at DhO. Steph S is another friend who really knows her shit. And all the people who come out of the woodwork at the first hint of a sincere practitioner, who you are in spades. You really stumbled intp the right circle of hell here, Sam of the Nations!

Thank you Tim!

Brandon,
I started using See, Hear, Feel today with my hour meditation. You were indeeed right that the super simple labels in the noting prevents the struggling for looking for the right label. I noticed, per what Daniel had said, that I was able to dramatically increase the frequency of notinicings. I also found that I used Feel for much of the session. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really had a large number of bodily sensations such as tension, pressure, pain, etc. It's like my body is a bundle of knots.

weirdly--- synchronicity, anyone?--- Papa Che just came out with another exercise in simplifying noting vocabulary:

(though with all due scruples, you might want to ask him whether he thinks your Noting is on auto pilot and fluid enough. I would recommend just trying the fucking technique, personally. It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission, a law of the spiritual path that has served me well so far.)

oh, I don't know if I like this technique (although I haven't tried it yet). I don't think it provides enough context. I can't image myself saying "Awareness" over and over for 60 minutes. How do I get him to come to this topic?

You use proper radio procedure. Like so:

Hello, hello, calling Papa Che Actual. This Is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, do you copy? Papa Che Actual, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, do you copy? This channel, double click if you're in the shit. Do you copy, Papa Che, do you read this? Over.

LOL! I have to admit that's pretty funny! So, I take it this system has no way to embed the person's name in the text with some notation to create a link or notification to him?

I'm on Retreat but questions I have for Papa Che or other noting experts:
1) I don't think I like the awareness technique as the word awareness is so disconnected from the event being logged
2) Givin this thread, and what David wants me to do (high frequency noting of events) what do you think of See-Hear-Feel? Do you "approve" of its use in this context?

Anyone questions please help answer
1) I use a fairly advanced but lightly guided meditation app called Waking Up by Sam Harris. At times, it he asks me to look at the thinker of a thought, or who is doing the looking, does it feel that there is a central self in the head, etc. I know the answer to these questions is no intellectually but I don't know how to really perform the inquiry experientially. Any guidance?

Hi Sam Im no Noting Expert also forget about that "awareness" video please as its stupid (well might be worth exploring but only for those very much familiar with the normal labeling noting)

So yes. Forget that "awareness" noting that I tried only once. What I actually do is Notice in the mind what the object is like seeing, comprehanding/knowing what it is, pleasant feeling etc ... but instead just label it with "awareness" and in that moment there is also this very spacious and curious wonder on what is awareness. So yes. Forget about it and sorry for causing confusion. Thank you

I think its fine to use Shinzen's labels. Why not. I prefer Kenneth Folk's labels and added many more of my own so to get into more details, to differentiate between, planning thoughts and image thoughts. I label feelings Unpleasant when not nice and when nice Pleasant, and when just Ok then Neutral.

Also its best to ask "who is seeing/knowing" when such question arises on its own or when attention is on the nose (eyes open n my case) or the eye space, rather than falling into the hindrance of proliferating on that subject, otherwise just keep noting only object which attention is contacting like itching, preassure in the chest or else, hearing, pleasant, thinking, restlessness, joy  ... 

Kenneth Folk has some good videos on Freestyle Noting Aloud with all the info you might need concerning labeling and what to notice, like mind states, feeling tone, body sensations. 
Here is one but please do check the others as he breaks them into categories;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-58IoZMNss

Thanks for your answer. So Shinzen Young or Mahasi Sayadaw?

When those questions do come up on your own how do you focus back on the "thinker" or "observer" to see there is nothing there?

I don't see if there is nothing there the question arise like anything else. If inquire into it you might sense where that knower might be; is it in the tingling of the itch on nose ? ... nah as that itch seems up front and beneath "it". Ok so is it in the eyes or behind the eyes? ..  hm ... don't know, can't tell but there is this sense that all other sensations seem, right or left or down or up from this sense of knower/watcher which seems in the eyes or maybe there I don't know  

Im not familiar with Shinzen's work but I don't see it being much different to Mahasi or even Kenneth teaching. 

See, Hear, Feel is an adaptation of the Mahasi method. I find it to be the most accesible and easiest entry point into noting. Once you get familiarity with the practice, you can start adding in other labels and more complex approaches, but See, Hear, Feel will get you very far. I spent months and months with this.

One thing I found particularly helpful with it was using it to identify thoughts. When they come in the form of images, I note, "See" when they come in the form of dialogue, I note "Hear". Sometimes it is a word that I both see and hear in my mind and I note "See, Hear". Using the method was the first time I was able to be cleary be aware of my thoughts. That could be just because it was the technique that happened to be around when that level of awareness increased, but it seemed to be a very dramatic difference once I started with See, Hear, Feel.

I think this is pretty normal, but you can intentionally decide to dedicate some time (or a whole session) to just one category of sensations. The darkness on the inside of your eyelids counts as "See" (as well as anything at any moment with your eyes open), the buzzing in your ears counts as "Hear", but you can also just follow your natural curiosity.

Ok, I'm sold and that's what I have been using.

That was a very clear explanation by Brandon. 

What I will add is not to worry if at times when noting becomes fast (yes the tempo and clarity will change) it is possible to suddenly use wrong label for a certain noticed object that too is fine if you have noticed that. This all thing is about Noticing and Noting/Labeling keeps us engaged so not to get sidetracked by hindrances. 


For instance yesterday I was doing speed noting aloud and a few times there was "inability to find a label" which was noted and labeled as "I don't know". Or one time I noted "blinking" which did not happen. Instead what happened was "anticipation" that there might be an eyelid blinking  
All this is fine and is Noticed and there is no need to beat oneself for it. 
Also adjust your "speed" according to clarity. If all seems very unclear then slow down a bit as you want to really Note what is arising rather than chasing stuff just to gain speed  

I'm sure you will see all this for yourself through practicing. 

Ok, its been all See-Hear-Feel for the last two days with one unique but imortant addition for me. I know thinking is under "Hear" but I have  noticed when noting "Hear" a whole bunch of times in a row for something continous like at AC outside, I sometimes get lost in the "Hear" and miiss critical thoughts. Simce I do a lot of planning thoughts and other thinking, I have just split out the word "thinking" from the other 3. Does this make sense Brandon?

Papa, the whole object of this fast noting is not just increased mindfulness but entry into the Path (as Daniel wrote about) right? I mean what are the benefits? Should I be feeling different by now or too early?

aloha sam,

   The true man of no distinction has achieved nothing and has no attainments.

   Congratulations.

terry

I cant speak in Daniel's stead, but I assume he ment as soon you start Noting that itch is part of the Body sensations and that worry is a Mind state, meaning one is Mind and other one Body you are basically working on the Mind & Body stage of Insight Thats already onthe Path. Its not yet full-on "on fire" practice but that will come with A&P stage. Without Mindfulness there is no Path. So Noting fasilitates Mindfulness and keeps you engaged so not to have too many lapses in noting the stream of consciousness.

Short said; "If you are Noting, you are doing it right" - Kenneth Folk (of course if you are noting matter of fact and not jjust imagining stuff)

EDIT; your feeling will change. Keep noting that also like Unpleasant, Neutral and Pleasant. You will like the meditation then you will hate it then you will like it again then you will hate it then you will be neutral about it and then you get Stream Entry  
Do not focus on positive feelings. FOCUS ON ACCEPTANCE and keep noting in a way that keeps you engaged without lapse in mindfulness (noting aloud or silent which ever works) Also no matter how difficult it gets try not to STOP your daily practice of 45 minutes minimum. If it really gets so disqusting and miserable at some point or the body pain creates so much agony DO NOT STOP the practice Keep at it with more acceptance and keep sitting once a day. Most of us can sit through 45 minutes of agony, disqust and misery or even fear and after give one self an icecream as "well done" What Im saying is be open to this practice getting VERY unpleasant at some stage. Maybe not for all but for me it was and even right now it still is Its my mind and not the practice itself that makes it feel the way it feels. Acceptance and Faith in this Path. 

May you practice well! 

+1 to all Papa Che is saying.

Lol. I've done this enough that I now label when I am anticipating a sensation.


Set aside the analysis, for now. Place some faith in practice and commit for awhile, like a month or two. Keep a log and when you are done with the month or two commitment ask yourself if you want to keep going. Underlying your question is a feeling of expectation or desire for result. Note that as you practice (or IRL) and let it go.

In my case, I saw no other way out of my depression, so I just kept going until something happened, and when it happened, it REALLY happened. Meditation is a lot like war (with important and obvious differences) -- long stretches of boredom puncuated by dramatic moments, but an essential part of the work is learning to be okay with the long stretches of boredom. There are ups and downs and just flat stretches and if you can be cool with all of them you find that your life just starts to get better. 

That's fine to use another label, if it works for you. It's also okay to miss thoughts. By the nature of the practice you are going to miss most of what is going on. Just note what you are aware of in the most relaxed, loving, trusting way possible. You are doing it right. I promise. Being okay with how you are practicing and relaxing into it is a huge part of the equation.

I was trying to let this go but why do you got to popp  in here and write such unhelpful stuff like this. I am not supposed to ask questions? It turns out that these two answers were the two most important I have ever recieved here. They have kept going in a period of doubht amd wanting to almost give up. Why don't you leave me alone?

I'm certainly not an expert, but let me give you my perspective.

It seems to me that 20 minutes a day, regardless of the practice, should not be expected to have got you anywhere. An hour a day may or may not lead anywhere, reports seem to be mixed on that. Retreats are really where it's at, in terms of progress hitting you over the head and there remaining no doubt that it has occurred.

Now, what are the marks of progress? They are things that happen during meditation. If your practice works, then you will, soon or later, get into extraordinary states where you have the impression that you... are experiencing things in a new way. This happens during meditation and is impossible to miss.

It doesn't mean that your individual sitting, after such an event, will necessarily be different from now. Though over time, you will find that even every individual session feels different now, even when it doesn't lead to truly extraordinary states.

You should not try to measure your progress by looking at your off-cushion self. There may be changes, but they can be subtle at first.

You should also not treat meditation from a utilitarian perspective, with the goal of becoming happier, calmer, reduce stress, etc. These things get alternative better and worse or don't change at all from meditation. The permanent changes that it does produce appear to be... at some angle to all of that.

What I'd do in your position is to see to it that I get to go on a retreat (10-day or more). If nothing happens then, then you're probably neurologically unlucky in some very rare way, and you know that meditation is realistically not a good use of your time. More likely, however, you will finally get to experience what it means to make progress in meditation.

What I said above applies to insight meditation (vipassana). I have no experience with samatha, but from what I hear people say, it seems to take longer to get anywhere with that. It also does not produce lasting changes in the way that insight does, it's just fun, and once you have reliable access to jhanas, that may be nice - but it won't profoundly transform you.

I would suggest you to ignore Tim and I also suggest Tim avoids this thread of yours for now. 

"They have kept going in a period of doubht amd wanting to almost give up."

Can you describe this time of doubt and feeling of giving up a bit more? Is the doubt happening only during the sitting practice or off the cushion? 
What feelings do you experience off the cushion and what feelings/mind states do you experience on the cushion? 

Doubt is a serious and heavy mind state charged with unpleasant feeling and should be treated with utter respect and observed/noted. Also the source of doubt needs to be addressed and I hope Brandon and I answered your questions above. If not ask again what is not clear. 

Thank you for your responses you. Yours and Brandon's responses were the two most meaningful answers I have gotten here. They were extrodinarly useful. I have doubts about the noting working because meditation in itself has ot worked for 7 years. The doubt is happening both on the cushion and off the cushion. You and Brandon did indeed address the questions. The only thing is my track history. I am trying to have faith that this will be different. Thank you.

I suggest giving this method a chance. Give it a few months and establish a daily minimum 45 minutes sit. 

When you sit make sure you actually note at least one sensation a second. This should not be a problem for most people. In case it's difficult use the words "there is ... " and then label aloud the sensation you are noticing. "There is itching, there is coolness (on nostrils as you breath in), there is preassure (your bum against the cushion/chair), there is hearing, there is doubt, there is unpleasant ... 

Noting pace and loudness of the voice are all tools. Try to recognize each day once you sit what kind of terrain is your mind that day. If it's very unclear then use "there is ..." wording as it will calm you down by giving you more time to find a sensation. "There is" will also bring about Curiosity which is good. 

If it's hard to practice, there is doubt, disgust, misery, fear, restlessness then practice aloud by really  hearing yourself. Find a place where you can speak up a bit. Explain to the people you live with that is a part of this practice. 

Sometimes the mind terrain is clear and noting silently works better. 

Mind a Terrain changes all the time. This is the point. This is what we are trying to realize. Anicca! It's one of the 3 Characteristics/Perceptions of all experiences. 

What is your goal? Can you tell me what you are after. What should this practice do for you? 

 

Thank you! The goal is to have meditation produce insight - after meeting with Daniel he said noting at a high rate would automatically put me on the path, So the practice should get me into the Mind & Body stage and then A & P.

Ok so you want insights. You do know that these Insights lead towards awakening/enlightenment? This road to awakening might include LOTS of PURIFICATION which might not be that pleasant!
Have you read Ingram's book called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha? That would give you MANY answers and would give you many warnings about what this journey might bring about. You can find this book for free online (might be part of this forum)

Insight stages start with Mind and Body, then Cause and Effect, then 3 Characteristics, and then Arising and Passing away. Then comes the 5 stages most of us call Dark Night, and so on ...

I hope you read Ingram's book so you know what this path can bring about as some stages can be VERY dark and unpleasant, as some can be VERY pleasant. 
It is good to arm yourself with Acceptance of good and bad stuff that might arise in this and as result of this practice. We are awakening to both pleasant and unpleasant feelings as well as those who are neutral. 

I can not hold your hand nor can anyone else. You will have to do this yourself with support from a teacher or this community or some other dhamma community that knows these insight maps and noting.

I've read his book and am aware of the dangers but isn't enlightenment everyone's goal? What's your goal in doing the Noting so intently?

My goal was always (since 2008), even before I found Buddhism, cessation of suffering. It still is. I know this entails Awakening/Enlightenment but my focus and motivation is cessation of suffering.

Also Im hardly doing Noting so "intently" as many here on this forum (and Im sure elsewere) do MUCH more intently noting than I EVER did or will do   

I am trying to feel the change taking place. Insights might arise strong or just subtle. In case of subtle insight you might simple feel being in the different stage not even noticing any WOW feel about the previous stage  

So my suggestion would be to only be interested in what is right now happening in this moment and do that for the duration of 45 minutes minimum once a day. This is a very good way forward. Then feel how the stages unfold and how the need for sitting looks like. At times you wil feel to sit more and at times you will feel once a day for 45 minutes is all you can do without forcing it too much. The goal here is to have consistent daily noting practice for at least 45 minutes and not to force too much and then you give up  

Im suggesting Noting Aloud to keep you firmly locked in the Now-ness so you dont waste time in scenario spinning thoughts and feelings of doubt etc ... This is only for the sitting practice. In off-cushion life you can relax more and not stress about practice too much but when you sit then really do sit and do the noting with a pace thats adjusted to the terrai your mind is in. 

I always start by saying my intention first;
"I will now practice freestyle noting aloud as thought by my teacher Kenneth Folk and I will do that for 45 minutes to the best of my ability for the sake of attaining to full awakening for the benefit of myself and all other beings" then I start slowly by using the "There is ... itching, there is ..." and then feel the terrain my mind is in at that moment and adjust the noting pace and volume of the voice accordingly. This is simply not to get into fast noting while all is very unclear just for the sake (desire) of noting fast  

Ingram suggests 1 to 10 sensations per second meaning 1 sensation per second is also fine what you dont want is wasting too much of your sitting time on hindrances, thinking about the practice , having doubt which will bring about restlessness etc ... 

Do know that Mind and Body usually feels good and Cause and Effect is also not that bad but The 3 Characterisitcs can be very unpleasant as there might come agony from body jerks, body stiffness, body pains which can lead to unpleasant feelings and reactivity. Such negative stages need lots of Acceptance and Faith in this Path and keep on with daily Noting practice to get through them. We dont want to cling to any stage and we dont want to push away any stage. Acceptance and matter of fact noting will help in any case. 

For exampke Im now in a stage thats called The 3 Characteristics and I feel like shit I have had thoughts of giving up for the last two days but I know better and I keep sitting daily knowing that these stages are also subject to Anicca. So I keep sitting and noting without laps in mindfulness. This ought to result in stage called Arising and Passing Away and so on journey goes.

Sam, are you working with Daniel Ingram on a regular basis?

No. We had one meeting where he laid out some options for a path for me and then he said he was going to give me over to a teacher that he would recomend. That's not happening so we touch base once in a while.

Everyone is different, some people are suited for long distance running, others are more suited for powerlifting.  Is it possible that the same general idea applies to meditation practices?  Some people are naturally wired for noting practice and succeed fairly easily while others struggle for years without much to show for it.  Could it be that not everyone has the natural whatever to succeed at a specific meditation technique?  

What other activity is assumed to be the right fit for everyone on the planet?  Could metta, or jhana-then-insight practice, or actualism, or a more loose attention on the breath as instructed in the Suttas, or mantra practice, or the headless way, or goenka scanning, or something else be a practice that you more naturally align with and succeed at?  

I hate to be that guy who's suggesting taking a break from your current practice to try a few other methods for a few weeks each, but I guess I am that guy.   Either that or find a good local teacher, practice exactly according to their instructions for a good period of time, and then think about bailing on vipassana practice for awhile.  

Peace, 

Hi Sam,
 
You mention that you "have trouble accepting the present moment." In another post, you mentioned that you were not getting the 3Cs. One way of looking at things is to say that if you are having trouble accepting the present moment, you do actually get suffering. You share that you are getting no clam, stress reduction, or bliss. That sounds unsatisfactory, and it sounds like you know that it is unsatisfactory. Good work.

At the risk of sounding very discouraging, I practiced on and off for 15 years before getting big-time benefits. Most of the benefits I got during that time were pretty dry. There was about a year during which I got bored and impatient about 20 or 30 minutes into every sit. But I just watched it, as instructed. It got to the point where you might even say that I was looking forward to the boredom and impatience. It would come up, almost like a familiar acquaintance, and I'd watch it, and see how it changed. I can't say it was fun, but I learned something about the way my mind was working and, by extension, how the minds of others were working. I also think that it improved my concentration. I get the impression that you would like to be able to pay attention to a pleasant sensation, but things we dislike can be good objects of awareness. If you stick with the unpleasant nature of the present moment, and watch for it to show some aspect you can put a label on, like an old lady watching out the window to catch the neighbor's dog taking a dump on her lawn, or follow the changing unsatisfactory experience like a security guard tracking a shoplifter through a department store, it can get pretty interesting. Once it's interesting, concentration is much easier. 

In my experience, concenration can help move things along and it can also lead to some of those things like calm and stress reduction. Bliss might take a while. I had very little of it for a long while, and then -- boom, without warning -- so much of it that it gets in the way. Bliss is great, kind of, but it's not the main course. If there was a place where I could go to trade in bliss for insight, I guess I would trade in all that I have. 

Yes! Sam does have a really excellent opportunity to focus on in his practice -- he can watch his impatience with the same kind of attention you applied to your impatience.

Thanks for your comments but I have only begun the quick Noting practice a couple of weeks ago and have not given it anywhere near a fair trial. I am comitting to it for at least the next 2 or 3 months and then we'll see. I do have increased mindfulness.

Thanks for your sharing your experiences. I am 7 years into it.

So you think I have a patience issue

I don't think.

Hold the presses! I just did my 60 minute noting meditation and I was filled with pleasent feelings and happy thoughts. I know its  minor and impermenent but I'll take it!

Huzzah!

Go do some metta, Sam! 

Kidding you don't have to. I'm teasing because you said you had trouble accessing those happy and pleasant feelings while doing metta. But, now'd be a good time if the pleasant feelings are lingering to ride those out and focus in on them for some metta. Feel the love and gratitude for the pleasant feelings, Sam. haha

Well done Sam!  
Mind tends to grow glad when mindful and not lost in hindrances. Noting facilitates mindfulness hence more gladness even if in the face of seemingly unpleasant stuff. 

Well done! 

Huh! Guess  what I did instead? Go study my Tibetan Bardo of Dying course momemnt of dying ;) If that's not a buzz kill for those happy and pleasent feelings, then I don't know what is

LOL. Hey, I suppose if you can get past the fear of death it might be all gravy afterwards, so you might be onto something.

Guess what? You inspired me. I did 24 minutes of Metta  and this time using my own phrases I felt something! I still feel happy and pleasent feelings.

Don't get cocky kid.

   The best practice is dull and boring. Just sit. Try not to note anything. Anything else is tail-chasing. Navel-gazing more better.

terry




tao te ching, trans mitchell


14.

Look, and it can't be seen. 
Listen, and it can't be heard. 
Reach, and it can't be grasped.
Above, it isn't bright. 
Below, it isn't dark. 
Seamless, unnamable, 
it returns to the realm of nothing. 
Form that includes all forms, 
image without an image, 
subtle, beyond all conception.
Approach it and there is no beginning; 
follow it and there is no end. 
You can't know it, but you can be it, 
at ease in your own life. 
Just realize where you come from: 
this is the essence of wisdom. 

"The best practice is dull and boring. Just sit. Try not to note anything. Anything else is tail-chasing. Navel-gazing more better.

terry"

Terry, maybe you missed the fact that Sam is struggling with Doubt and Giving Up and you adding this option to his already doubtfull stance is not helping Some say "just sit", other say "just note", other say "just chant", others say "just Jhana", others say "just believe" others say ...

Doubt is a serious hindrance and adding more options will just create more doubt for Sam. He decided to practice Noting and seems to be liking it. Let him have a go at it for a few mnths and see for himself if its of benefit or not.

I suggest we give Sam space and let him fly on his own with pair of wings. No reason attaching extra wings or chopping off the wings he just attached.

Noting can be boring and can be dull and can be very agonising and can be very pleasant and can be disorentating and energetic and insightful ... and liberating.

I hope not to start some useless debate in his thread here   let him focus on the now-ness of his experience unfolding.

May you be well and happy.

Yes! I'm off and running with Noting (see my new Practice Log) and thank you

   Sam should quit struggling. That's my advice. He suffers from the futility of busily pursuing what only runs from the pursuer. If he would stop all this struggle, what he wants would come to him. Like a horse which runs if chased but really wants to be protected and cared for.

   If you read "nothing" for noting I could agree. One could say they are in essence the same, noting canceling notes. Or, not. We understand these things differently, uncle. You to your faith and I to mine, as the koran says.


t

Please accept my sincere apology Terry as you are senoir to me in many ways Im sure. It was not my place. Be well friend.

Sam Gentile, grabbing this swelling wave of apologies, i would likie you to know how sorry i am for my verbal behavior earlier on your practice log. I risked that greatest sin, Doing Harm, and only your own no-bullshit response and sense oif the strength of the sangha kept me from possibly afflicting you with my idiocy. I apologize, humbly, and beg your forgiveness.

As far as I am concerned, Papa Che doesn't need to apologize to you. you come in here with mystical quotations that don't help me. Let me make you aware of something. I went and met with Daniel Ingram of my own FREE WILL and after a fantastic meeting, Out Loud Noting in a rapid manner was suggested to me as one of my options. I PICKED this option, Daniel supports it and Papa Che and Brandon have done an amazing job to deal with all my questions and getting my Noting knowledge way up there. Now I am HAPPY with my practice and I have started a practice log. So let it be.

You're all good brother 

   Trade you insight for bliss any day. Right now.

ggrriinnnn

t

(bows)

   you are right, papa didn't need to apologize...his remarks were not offensive...

   and I wouldn't post on anyone's practice log...

   your aversion to mystical quotes is noted...if they mean nothing to you consider that someday you might open up to them, and hearing them can do you no harm...

   as papa says, be well, brother...I'm glad you are getting the attention you desire, and are happy with your practice...

terry





tao te ching, trans mitchell


33.

Knowing others is intelligence; 
knowing yourself is true wisdom. 
Mastering others is strength; 
mastering yourself is true power.
If you realize that you have enough, 
you are truly rich. 
If you stay in the center 
and embrace death with your whole heart, 
you will endure forever. 

another obscure mystical quote from one who can't resist...SORRY...




Tin Man
(america)

Sometimes late at night
When things are real
And people share the gift of gab
Between themselves

Some are quick
To take the bait
And catch the perfect prize
That waits among the shelves

But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have
And cause never was the reason for the evening
Or the tropic of Sir Galahad

So please believe in me
When I say I'm spinning 'round, 'round, 'round, 'round
Smoke glass stain'd bright colors
Image going down, down, down, down
Soapsud green like bubbles

Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have
And cause never was the reason for the evening
Or the tropic of Sir Galahad

So please
Believe in me
When I say I'm spinning' round, 'round, 'round, 'round
Smoke glass stain'd bright colors
Image going down, down, down, down
Soapsud green like bubbles

No, Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have
And cause never was the reason for the evening
Or the tropic of Sir Galahad

So please believe in me


(written by dewey bunnell)