Nothing After 7 Years?

Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Hi Everyone,

I am new here. I feel like I don't belong  because I have none of the attaintments but I am here because I could use ssome help. I have been meditating for almost 7 years vipassna/shamatha style and my major issue is that nothing has happened. I know I am not supposed to expect anything but 7 years? I havve had no moments of insight nor the supposed byproducts like clam, stress reduction, bliss,etc. I started meditating with IMS and vippasana and a few years ago switched to Tibetan with my teacher Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, under which I am studying the Bardo of Death.

I just upped my meditation tme to one hour. I have trouble accepting the present moment so I feel I manipulate my meditation experience because it is not the experience I expect or want. I have a hard time sensing the breath. It is really faint so I maniplulate it slightly to really feel it at the abdominal area.I am now used Sam Harris super meditation app Waking Up, which has me asking the right questions like "who is thinking that thought?" Of course I don't come with anyone or a self but I am not sure I am really experiencing that understanding physically. I was so inspired reading DanielIngram's book. I would like to achieve A&P. Does anyone have any tips for me, teachers, books, or retreats? Any help would be appreciated.


Sam
agnostic, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1538 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
Hi Sam,

I'm sorry to hear about your 7 years of famine, but it is an auspicious number ... 
emoticon 

You could try investigating your resistance to accepting the present moment, but it sounds like you might be a bit vipassan'ed out.

It sounds like your practice could do with a bit more pleasure and enjoyment. I'm just going to refer you to a post I made yesterday which outlines something you could try. Let us know how you get on if you like.

All the best
agnostic


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Chris Marti, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 3865 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I started meditating with IMS and vippasana and a few years ago switched to Tibetan with my teacher Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, under which I am studying the Bardo of Death.

Your first step is to talk to your teacher about your expectations and not having them met. Presumably, that person knows your practice far better than we strangers here. Have you done that? If not, why not? Do you talk to your teacher one-on-one? Is it face to face, video, or phone?
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
I don't get to talk directly to Mingyur Rinpoche as he is an international traveling llama but I had a interview with one of his assistants who said "Maybe I think not much has changed but probably in reality something has changed. Don't worry about Bliss. Those are just by-products. Main thing is wisdom and compassion. You can explore other kinds of practices like Compassion. Shift your prespective "The View" of trying to fix yourself. Seeing that you are trying to fix yourself again is a huge insight. Perspective has to be I'm OK now and there is nothing to fix." This was by phone.
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Chris Marti, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 3865 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I don't get to talk directly to Mingyur Rinpoche as he is an international traveling llama but I had a interview with one of his assistants who said "Maybe I think not much has changed but probably in reality something has changed. Don't worry about Bliss. Those are just by-products. Main thing is wisdom and compassion. You can explore other kinds of practices like Compassion. Shift your prespective "The View" of trying to fix yourself. Seeing that you are trying to fix yourself again is a huge insight. Perspective has to be I'm OK now and there is nothing to fix." This was by phone.

I figured as much from Googling Mingyur Rinpoche. A busy person, no doubt.

Are you envious of what you read here from vipassana practitioners? The reason you practice is important. I have to assume you chose Mingyur Rinpoche as your teacher for a reason a few years ago. Do you recall what that reason was? Was it lack of progress like you're expressing here now? Are you sure you're interested in changing back to vipassana practice as it's described in MCTB?

It seems you've bounced around from this to that a bit. What do you really and truly want from your practice?
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
I don't get to talk directly to Mingyur Rinpoche as he is an international traveling llama but I had a interview with one of his assistants who said "Maybe I think not much has changed but probably in reality something has changed. Don't worry about Bliss. Those are just by-products. Main thing is wisdom and compassion. You can explore other kinds of practices like Compassion. Shift your prespective "The View" of trying to fix yourself. Seeing that you are trying to fix yourself again is a huge insight. Perspective has to be I'm OK now and there is nothing to fix." This was by phone.

I figured as much from Googling Mingyur Rinpoche. A busy person, no doubt.

Are you envious of what you read here from vipassana practitioners? The reason you practice is important. I have to assume you chose Mingyur Rinpoche as your teacher for a reason a few years ago. Do you recall what that reason was? Was it lack of progress like you're expressing here now? Are you sure you're interested in changing back to vipassana practice as it's described in MCTB?

It seems you've bounced around from this to that a bit. What do you really and truly want from your practice?

I am envious about what I read here from vipassana practioners. But I perfer the Tibetan teachings as there is a lot more to them,  a rich depth. I choose Mingyur Rinpoche as a teacher because such a famous teacher was available online. The things I have learned have been very valauble but not the meditation which is really a style of Mahamudra. I am interested in coming back to vipassana practice as its described in MCTB along with some Tibetan teachings.

I truly and really want the peace and the end of suffering from my practice.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Chris? How do I get started if I wanted to go back to Vipassana?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Chris? How do I get started if I wanted to go back to Vipassana?

Noting 1-10 sensations per second would be a good start and minimum of 45 minutes per daily sit. Keep a consistent daily practice as best as you can. 
If you loose mindfulness too often and get lost in scenarioo spinning thoughts and fantasies too much do Noting Aloud where you aloud speak the label like;
if hearing a bird then note aloud "hearing" if you also notice the knowing that its a bird then note aloud "comprehanding" and if you notice an image of a bird on your mind then note aloud as "imagining" and if you notice a feeling connected with all this the note it aloud as "pleasant or unpleasant or neutral" if again you noitce some body sensation like itch note it aloud like "itching" then "unpleasant" and so on until the timer rings 45 minutes or longer or shorter in case 45 minutes is too long. 
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Sam Gentile:
Chris? How do I get started if I wanted to go back to Vipassana?

Noting 1-10 sensations per second would be a good start and minimum of 45 minutes per daily sit. Keep a consistent daily practice as best as you can. 
If you loose mindfulness too often and get lost in scenarioo spinning thoughts and fantasies too much do Noting Aloud where you aloud speak the label like;
if hearing a bird then note aloud "hearing" if you also notice the knowing that its a bird then note aloud "comprehanding" and if you notice an image of a bird on your mind then note aloud as "imagining" and if you notice a feeling connected with all this the note it aloud as "pleasant or unpleasant or neutral" if again you noitce some body sensation like itch note it aloud like "itching" then "unpleasant" and so on until the timer rings 45 minutes or longer or shorter in case 45 minutes is too long. 
Thanks for your post. I'll increase the noting I already do. My only question is there an advantage to noting aloud? I always have been taught  that the noting should be silent in the mind.
shargrol, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1530 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Papa Che Dusko:
Sam Gentile:
Chris? How do I get started if I wanted to go back to Vipassana?

Noting 1-10 sensations per second would be a good start and minimum of 45 minutes per daily sit. Keep a consistent daily practice as best as you can. 
If you loose mindfulness too often and get lost in scenarioo spinning thoughts and fantasies too much do Noting Aloud where you aloud speak the label like;
if hearing a bird then note aloud "hearing" if you also notice the knowing that its a bird then note aloud "comprehanding" and if you notice an image of a bird on your mind then note aloud as "imagining" and if you notice a feeling connected with all this the note it aloud as "pleasant or unpleasant or neutral" if again you noitce some body sensation like itch note it aloud like "itching" then "unpleasant" and so on until the timer rings 45 minutes or longer or shorter in case 45 minutes is too long. 
Thanks for your post. I'll increase the noting I already do. My only question is there an advantage to noting aloud? I always have been taught  that the noting should be silent in the mind.

Sam, glad you're asking questions about how to develop a vipassina/noting practice here. It's a great way to get feedback from a lot of experienced meditators. As you can see in the other topics, many people will post the details of their sits (how long, what method, what seemed to work, what didn't) and they will ask questions about their practice. It is also a good way to stay accountable, to document daily practice.

There are many versions of noting practice, but noting out loud is a proven way to make sure we are bringing enough attention into the practice. It's very easy to sorta mentally note but not be clear about it. 

It's definitely worth experiementing for a week with out loud noting and see how it goes. Looking forward to hearing how it goes for you.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
shargrol, only Quick Reply works here with small messages so I wanted to add here that I read your writeup on Noting practice and I added Out Loud Noting to my meditations 2 days ago. So far, it has been helping me increase mindfulness of objects and seems to lessen discursive thoughts. A winner.
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
shargrol, only Quick Reply works here with small messages so I wanted to add here that I read your writeup on Noting practice and I added Out Loud Noting to my meditations 2 days ago. So far, it has been helping me increase mindfulness of objects and seems to lessen discursive thoughts. A winner.
good! Keep that up for another seven years, now!
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
shargrol, only Quick Reply works here with small messages so I wanted to add here that I read your writeup on Noting practice and I added Out Loud Noting to my meditations 2 days ago. So far, it has been helping me increase mindfulness of objects and seems to lessen discursive thoughts. A winner.
good! Keep that up for another seven years, now!


Ha ha! Seriously seven years until what milestone? A&P?
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
shargrol, only Quick Reply works here with small messages so I wanted to add here that I read your writeup on Noting practice and I added Out Loud Noting to my meditations 2 days ago. So far, it has been helping me increase mindfulness of objects and seems to lessen discursive thoughts. A winner.
good! Keep that up for another seven years, now!


Ha ha! Seriously seven years until what milestone? A&P?

Three Characteristics, you ambitious, headlong, rash and hasty maniac. Lay a fucking groundwork, will ya?

love, tim
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
shargrol, only Quick Reply works here with small messages so I wanted to add here that I read your writeup on Noting practice and I added Out Loud Noting to my meditations 2 days ago. So far, it has been helping me increase mindfulness of objects and seems to lessen discursive thoughts. A winner.
good! Keep that up for another seven years, now!


Ha ha! Seriously seven years until what milestone? A&P?

Three Characteristics, you ambitious, headlong, rash and hasty maniac. Lay a fucking groundwork, will ya?

love, tim
Hey Tim,

I have a question on Out Loud Noting. I just had an excellent 60 min sit with excellent mindfulness. Part of my noting was a lawnmower sound consistently for about a 1/2 hour among other things because it was an sound object that was present during my meditation. Is that right to do? Thanks.
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
shargrol, only Quick Reply works here with small messages so I wanted to add here that I read your writeup on Noting practice and I added Out Loud Noting to my meditations 2 days ago. So far, it has been helping me increase mindfulness of objects and seems to lessen discursive thoughts. A winner.
good! Keep that up for another seven years, now!


Ha ha! Seriously seven years until what milestone? A&P?

Three Characteristics, you ambitious, headlong, rash and hasty maniac. Lay a fucking groundwork, will ya?

love, tim
Hey Tim,

I have a question on Out Loud Noting. I just had an excellent 60 min sit with excellent mindfulness. Part of my noting was a lawnmower sound consistently for about a 1/2 hour among other things because it was an sound object that was present during my meditation. Is that right to do? Thanks.
emoticon
As a barely worthy of the name student of the resident master of Noting Aloud, Papa Che, himself the barely worthy of the name student of Kenneth Folks, and so on back to the Buddha himself, I feel utterly unqualified to answer this question.emoticon

However, the answer is hell yes. emoticon
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim,
I was going to ask you another question on noting. Daniel was very kind to meet with me on Skype yesterday and while leaving the private parts out, wanted me to start on this new ath by "noting all my sensations as fast as I can" and "Need to push the baud rate of capture." He said this really highly level of noting would put me on the path automatically.

I went to do my 1 hour sit today with Out LOud Noting and realized I pretty quickly ran out of words to use for noting. However, I did find a ton of them in the book Practical Insight Meditation which pretty much has it all.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 456 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.

Thank you. This was suggested to me (for another reason) just last night.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.

Brandon,
I started using See, Hear, Feel today with my hour meditation. You were indeeed right that the super simple labels in the noting prevents the struggling for looking for the right label. I noticed, per what Daniel had said, that I was able to dramatically increase the frequency of notinicings. I also found that I used Feel for much of the session. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really had a large number of bodily sensations such as tension, pressure, pain, etc. It's like my body is a bundle of knots.
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Brandon Dayton:
In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.

Brandon,
I started using See, Hear, Feel today with my hour meditation. You were indeeed right that the super simple labels in the noting prevents the struggling for looking for the right label. I noticed, per what Daniel had said, that I was able to dramatically increase the frequency of notinicings. I also found that I used Feel for much of the session. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really had a large number of bodily sensations such as tension, pressure, pain, etc. It's like my body is a bundle of knots.

weirdly--- synchronicity, anyone?--- Papa Che just came out with another exercise in simplifying noting vocabulary:

(though with all due scruples, you might want to ask him whether he thinks your Noting is on auto pilot and fluid enough. I would recommend just trying the fucking technique, personally. It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission, a law of the spiritual path that has served me well so far.)
Papa Che emoticon
Any way I would like to hear what others think of it once they actually try this. I would suggest only those very familiar with freestyle noting to try this, and feel Noting being almost on auto pilot and fluid. 

Tell me what you have noticed after practicing this way. This might as well just be utterly stupid emoticon but thank you for trying it out and sharing your findings. 
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Brandon Dayton:
In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.

Brandon,
I started using See, Hear, Feel today with my hour meditation. You were indeeed right that the super simple labels in the noting prevents the struggling for looking for the right label. I noticed, per what Daniel had said, that I was able to dramatically increase the frequency of notinicings. I also found that I used Feel for much of the session. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really had a large number of bodily sensations such as tension, pressure, pain, etc. It's like my body is a bundle of knots.

weirdly--- synchronicity, anyone?--- Papa Che just came out with another exercise in simplifying noting vocabulary:

(though with all due scruples, you might want to ask him whether he thinks your Noting is on auto pilot and fluid enough. I would recommend just trying the fucking technique, personally. It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission, a law of the spiritual path that has served me well so far.)
Papa Che emoticon
Any way I would like to hear what others think of it once they actually try this. I would suggest only those very familiar with freestyle noting to try this, and feel Noting being almost on auto pilot and fluid. 

Tell me what you have noticed after practicing this way. This might as well just be utterly stupid emoticon but thank you for trying it out and sharing your findings. 
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek

oh, I don't know if I like this technique (although I haven't tried it yet). I don't think it provides enough context. I can't image myself saying "Awareness" over and over for 60 minutes. How do I get him to come to this topic?
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Brandon Dayton:
In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.

Brandon,
I started using See, Hear, Feel today with my hour meditation. You were indeeed right that the super simple labels in the noting prevents the struggling for looking for the right label. I noticed, per what Daniel had said, that I was able to dramatically increase the frequency of notinicings. I also found that I used Feel for much of the session. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really had a large number of bodily sensations such as tension, pressure, pain, etc. It's like my body is a bundle of knots.

weirdly--- synchronicity, anyone?--- Papa Che just came out with another exercise in simplifying noting vocabulary:

(though with all due scruples, you might want to ask him whether he thinks your Noting is on auto pilot and fluid enough. I would recommend just trying the fucking technique, personally. It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission, a law of the spiritual path that has served me well so far.)
Papa Che emoticon
Any way I would like to hear what others think of it once they actually try this. I would suggest only those very familiar with freestyle noting to try this, and feel Noting being almost on auto pilot and fluid. 

Tell me what you have noticed after practicing this way. This might as well just be utterly stupid emoticon but thank you for trying it out and sharing your findings. 
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek

oh, I don't know if I like this technique (although I haven't tried it yet). I don't think it provides enough context. I can't image myself saying "Awareness" over and over for 60 minutes. How do I get him to come to this topic?
You use proper radio procedure. Like so:

Hello, hello, calling Papa Che Actual. This Is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, do you copy? Papa Che Actual, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, do you copy? This channel, double click if you're in the shit. Do you copy, Papa Che, do you read this? Over.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Brandon Dayton:
In lieu of broadening your vocab, you can also break your noting down even more simply. If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to check out Shinzen Young's See, Hear, Feel.

https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Can be used entirely in unison with what Daniel is recommending, it is just about using super simple labels in your noting so you don't get too caught up in trying to think up the right label and focus more on the actual sensations.

Brandon,
I started using See, Hear, Feel today with my hour meditation. You were indeeed right that the super simple labels in the noting prevents the struggling for looking for the right label. I noticed, per what Daniel had said, that I was able to dramatically increase the frequency of notinicings. I also found that I used Feel for much of the session. Maybe I'm getting old, but I really had a large number of bodily sensations such as tension, pressure, pain, etc. It's like my body is a bundle of knots.

weirdly--- synchronicity, anyone?--- Papa Che just came out with another exercise in simplifying noting vocabulary:

(though with all due scruples, you might want to ask him whether he thinks your Noting is on auto pilot and fluid enough. I would recommend just trying the fucking technique, personally. It is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission, a law of the spiritual path that has served me well so far.)
Papa Che emoticon
Any way I would like to hear what others think of it once they actually try this. I would suggest only those very familiar with freestyle noting to try this, and feel Noting being almost on auto pilot and fluid. 

Tell me what you have noticed after practicing this way. This might as well just be utterly stupid emoticon but thank you for trying it out and sharing your findings. 
https://youtu.be/hCvzwaOSwek

oh, I don't know if I like this technique (although I haven't tried it yet). I don't think it provides enough context. I can't image myself saying "Awareness" over and over for 60 minutes. How do I get him to come to this topic?
You use proper radio procedure. Like so:

Hello, hello, calling Papa Che Actual. This Is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, do you copy? Papa Che Actual, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot here, do you copy? This channel, double click if you're in the shit. Do you copy, Papa Che, do you read this? Over.
LOL! I have to admit that's pretty funny! So, I take it this system has no way to embed the person's name in the text with some notation to create a link or notification to him?

I'm on Retreat but questions I have for Papa Che or other noting experts:
1) I don't think I like the awareness technique as the word awareness is so disconnected from the event being logged
2) Givin this thread, and what David wants me to do (high frequency noting of events) what do you think of See-Hear-Feel? Do you "approve" of its use in this context? emoticon

Anyone questions please help answer
1) I use a fairly advanced but lightly guided meditation app called Waking Up by Sam Harris. At times, it he asks me to look at the thinker of a thought, or who is doing the looking, does it feel that there is a central self in the head, etc. I know the answer to these questions is no intellectually but I don't know how to really perform the inquiry experientially. Any guidance?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Hi Sam emoticon Im no Noting Expert emoticon also forget about that "awareness" video please as its stupid (well might be worth exploring but only for those very much familiar with the normal labeling noting)

So yes. Forget that "awareness" noting that I tried only once. What I actually do is Notice in the mind what the object is like seeing, comprehanding/knowing what it is, pleasant feeling etc ... but instead just label it with "awareness" and in that moment there is also this very spacious and curious wonder on what is awareness. So yes. Forget about it and sorry for causing confusion. Thank you emoticon

I think its fine to use Shinzen's labels. Why not. I prefer Kenneth Folk's labels and added many more of my own so to get into more details, to differentiate between, planning thoughts and image thoughts. I label feelings Unpleasant when not nice and when nice Pleasant, and when just Ok then Neutral.

Also its best to ask "who is seeing/knowing" when such question arises on its own or when attention is on the nose (eyes open n my case) or the eye space, rather than falling into the hindrance of proliferating on that subject, otherwise just keep noting only object which attention is contacting like itching, preassure in the chest or else, hearing, pleasant, thinking, restlessness, joy  ... 

Kenneth Folk has some good videos on Freestyle Noting Aloud with all the info you might need concerning labeling and what to notice, like mind states, feeling tone, body sensations. 
Here is one but please do check the others as he breaks them into categories;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-58IoZMNss
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Hi Sam emoticon Im no Noting Expert emoticon also forget about that "awareness" video please as its stupid (well might be worth exploring but only for those very much familiar with the normal labeling noting)

So yes. Forget that "awareness" noting that I tried only once. What I actually do is Notice in the mind what the object is like seeing, comprehanding/knowing what it is, pleasant feeling etc ... but instead just label it with "awareness" and in that moment there is also this very spacious and curious wonder on what is awareness. So yes. Forget about it and sorry for causing confusion. Thank you emoticon

I think its fine to use Shinzen's labels. Why not. I prefer Kenneth Folk's labels and added many more of my own so to get into more details, to differentiate between, planning thoughts and image thoughts. I label feelings Unpleasant when not nice and when nice Pleasant, and when just Ok then Neutral.

Also its best to ask "who is seeing/knowing" when such question arises on its own or when attention is on the nose (eyes open n my case) or the eye space, rather than falling into the hindrance of proliferating on that subject, otherwise just keep noting only object which attention is contacting like itching, preassure in the chest or else, hearing, pleasant, thinking, restlessness, joy  ... 

Kenneth Folk has some good videos on Freestyle Noting Aloud with all the info you might need concerning labeling and what to notice, like mind states, feeling tone, body sensations. 
Here is one but please do check the others as he breaks them into categories;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-58IoZMNss

Thanks for your answer. So Shinzen Young or Mahasi Sayadaw?

When those questions do come up on your own how do you focus back on the "thinker" or "observer" to see there is nothing there?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I don't see if there is nothing there emoticon the question arise like anything else. If inquire into it you might sense where that knower might be; is it in the tingling of the itch on nose ? ... nah as that itch seems up front and beneath "it". Ok so is it in the eyes or behind the eyes? ..  hm ... don't know, can't tell but there is this sense that all other sensations seem, right or left or down or up from this sense of knower/watcher which seems in the eyes or maybe there emoticon I don't know emoticon 

Im not familiar with Shinzen's work but I don't see it being much different to Mahasi or even Kenneth teaching. 
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Brandon Dayton, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 456 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
Thanks for your answer. So Shinzen Young or Mahasi Sayadaw?

See, Hear, Feel is an adaptation of the Mahasi method. I find it to be the most accesible and easiest entry point into noting. Once you get familiarity with the practice, you can start adding in other labels and more complex approaches, but See, Hear, Feel will get you very far. I spent months and months with this.

One thing I found particularly helpful with it was using it to identify thoughts. When they come in the form of images, I note, "See" when they come in the form of dialogue, I note "Hear". Sometimes it is a word that I both see and hear in my mind and I note "See, Hear". Using the method was the first time I was able to be cleary be aware of my thoughts. That could be just because it was the technique that happened to be around when that level of awareness increased, but it seemed to be a very dramatic difference once I started with See, Hear, Feel.
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Brandon Dayton, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 456 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
Maybe I'm getting old, but I really had a large number of bodily sensations such as tension, pressure, pain, etc. It's like my body is a bundle of knots.

I think this is pretty normal, but you can intentionally decide to dedicate some time (or a whole session) to just one category of sensations. The darkness on the inside of your eyelids counts as "See" (as well as anything at any moment with your eyes open), the buzzing in your ears counts as "Hear", but you can also just follow your natural curiosity.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
Thanks for your answer. So Shinzen Young or Mahasi Sayadaw?

See, Hear, Feel is an adaptation of the Mahasi method. I find it to be the most accesible and easiest entry point into noting. Once you get familiarity with the practice, you can start adding in other labels and more complex approaches, but See, Hear, Feel will get you very far. I spent months and months with this.

One thing I found particularly helpful with it was using it to identify thoughts. When they come in the form of images, I note, "See" when they come in the form of dialogue, I note "Hear". Sometimes it is a word that I both see and hear in my mind and I note "See, Hear". Using the method was the first time I was able to be cleary be aware of my thoughts. That could be just because it was the technique that happened to be around when that level of awareness increased, but it seemed to be a very dramatic difference once I started with See, Hear, Feel.

Ok, I'm sold and that's what I have been using.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
That was a very clear explanation by Brandon. 

What I will add is not to worry if at times when noting becomes fast (yes the tempo and clarity will change) it is possible to suddenly use wrong label for a certain noticed object emoticon that too is fine if you have noticed that. This all thing is about Noticing and Noting/Labeling keeps us engaged so not to get sidetracked by hindrances. 


For instance yesterday I was doing speed noting aloud and a few times there was "inability to find a label" which was noted and labeled as "I don't know". Or one time I noted "blinking" which did not happen. Instead what happened was "anticipation" that there might be an eyelid blinking emoticon 
All this is fine and is Noticed and there is no need to beat oneself for it. 
Also adjust your "speed" according to clarity. If all seems very unclear then slow down a bit as you want to really Note what is arising rather than chasing stuff just to gain speed emoticon 

I'm sure you will see all this for yourself through practicing. 
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
That was a very clear explanation by Brandon. 

What I will add is not to worry if at times when noting becomes fast (yes the tempo and clarity will change) it is possible to suddenly use wrong label for a certain noticed object emoticon that too is fine if you have noticed that. This all thing is about Noticing and Noting/Labeling keeps us engaged so not to get sidetracked by hindrances. 


For instance yesterday I was doing speed noting aloud and a few times there was "inability to find a label" which was noted and labeled as "I don't know". Or one time I noted "blinking" which did not happen. Instead what happened was "anticipation" that there might be an eyelid blinking emoticon 
All this is fine and is Noticed and there is no need to beat oneself for it. 
Also adjust your "speed" according to clarity. If all seems very unclear then slow down a bit as you want to really Note what is arising rather than chasing stuff just to gain speed emoticon 

I'm sure you will see all this for yourself through practicing. 
Papa, the whole object of this fast noting is not just increased mindfulness but entry into the Path (as Daniel wrote about) right? I mean what are the benefits? Should I be feeling different by now or too early?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Papa Che Dusko:
That was a very clear explanation by Brandon. 

What I will add is not to worry if at times when noting becomes fast (yes the tempo and clarity will change) it is possible to suddenly use wrong label for a certain noticed object emoticon that too is fine if you have noticed that. This all thing is about Noticing and Noting/Labeling keeps us engaged so not to get sidetracked by hindrances. 


For instance yesterday I was doing speed noting aloud and a few times there was "inability to find a label" which was noted and labeled as "I don't know". Or one time I noted "blinking" which did not happen. Instead what happened was "anticipation" that there might be an eyelid blinking emoticon 
All this is fine and is Noticed and there is no need to beat oneself for it. 
Also adjust your "speed" according to clarity. If all seems very unclear then slow down a bit as you want to really Note what is arising rather than chasing stuff just to gain speed emoticon 

I'm sure you will see all this for yourself through practicing. 
Papa, the whole object of this fast noting is not just increased mindfulness but entry into the Path (as Daniel wrote about) right? I mean what are the benefits? Should I be feeling different by now or too early?


I cant speak in Daniel's stead, but I assume he ment as soon you start Noting that itch is part of the Body sensations and that worry is a Mind state, meaning one is Mind and other one Body you are basically working on the Mind & Body stage of Insight emoticon Thats already onthe Path. Its not yet full-on "on fire" practice but that will come with A&P stage. Without Mindfulness there is no Path. So Noting fasilitates Mindfulness and keeps you engaged so not to have too many lapses in noting the stream of consciousness.

Short said; "If you are Noting, you are doing it right" - Kenneth Folk (of course if you are noting matter of fact and not jjust imagining stuff)

EDIT; your feeling will change. Keep noting that also like Unpleasant, Neutral and Pleasant. You will like the meditation then you will hate it then you will like it again then you will hate it then you will be neutral about it and then you get Stream Entry emoticon 
Do not focus on positive feelings. FOCUS ON ACCEPTANCE and keep noting in a way that keeps you engaged without lapse in mindfulness (noting aloud or silent which ever works) Also no matter how difficult it gets try not to STOP your daily practice of 45 minutes minimum. If it really gets so disqusting and miserable at some point or the body pain creates so much agony DO NOT STOP the practice emoticon Keep at it with more acceptance and keep sitting once a day. Most of us can sit through 45 minutes of agony, disqust and misery or even fear and after give one self an icecream as "well done" emoticon What Im saying is be open to this practice getting VERY unpleasant at some stage. Maybe not for all but for me it was and even right now it still is emoticon Its my mind and not the practice itself that makes it feel the way it feels. Acceptance and Faith in this Path. 

May you practice well! 
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Brandon Dayton, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 456 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
+1 to all Papa Che is saying.
Instead what happened was "anticipation" that there might be an eyelid blinking 

Lol. I've done this enough that I now label when I am anticipating a sensation.

 I mean what are the benefits? Should I be feeling different by now or too early?

Set aside the analysis, for now. Place some faith in practice and commit for awhile, like a month or two. Keep a log and when you are done with the month or two commitment ask yourself if you want to keep going. Underlying your question is a feeling of expectation or desire for result. Note that as you practice (or IRL) and let it go.

In my case, I saw no other way out of my depression, so I just kept going until something happened, and when it happened, it REALLY happened. Meditation is a lot like war (with important and obvious differences) -- long stretches of boredom puncuated by dramatic moments, but an essential part of the work is learning to be okay with the long stretches of boredom. There are ups and downs and just flat stretches and if you can be cool with all of them you find that your life just starts to get better. 
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Papa Che Dusko:
That was a very clear explanation by Brandon. 

What I will add is not to worry if at times when noting becomes fast (yes the tempo and clarity will change) it is possible to suddenly use wrong label for a certain noticed object emoticon that too is fine if you have noticed that. This all thing is about Noticing and Noting/Labeling keeps us engaged so not to get sidetracked by hindrances. 


For instance yesterday I was doing speed noting aloud and a few times there was "inability to find a label" which was noted and labeled as "I don't know". Or one time I noted "blinking" which did not happen. Instead what happened was "anticipation" that there might be an eyelid blinking emoticon 
All this is fine and is Noticed and there is no need to beat oneself for it. 
Also adjust your "speed" according to clarity. If all seems very unclear then slow down a bit as you want to really Note what is arising rather than chasing stuff just to gain speed emoticon 

I'm sure you will see all this for yourself through practicing. 
Papa, the whole object of this fast noting is not just increased mindfulness but entry into the Path (as Daniel wrote about) right? I mean what are the benefits? Should I be feeling different by now or too early?

Jeezus Fookin KERist, Sam, shut up about all this watched-pot checking shit and go practice for another seven years, like we all do.
I was trying to let this go but why do you got to popp  in here and write such unhelpful stuff like this. I am not supposed to ask questions? It turns out that these two answers were the two most important I have ever recieved here. They have kept going in a period of doubht amd wanting to almost give up. Why don't you leave me alone?
Manuel, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 10 Join Date: 11/29/19 Recent Posts
I'm certainly not an expert, but let me give you my perspective.

It seems to me that 20 minutes a day, regardless of the practice, should not be expected to have got you anywhere. An hour a day may or may not lead anywhere, reports seem to be mixed on that. Retreats are really where it's at, in terms of progress hitting you over the head and there remaining no doubt that it has occurred.

Now, what are the marks of progress? They are things that happen during meditation. If your practice works, then you will, soon or later, get into extraordinary states where you have the impression that you... are experiencing things in a new way. This happens during meditation and is impossible to miss.

It doesn't mean that your individual sitting, after such an event, will necessarily be different from now. Though over time, you will find that even every individual session feels different now, even when it doesn't lead to truly extraordinary states.

You should not try to measure your progress by looking at your off-cushion self. There may be changes, but they can be subtle at first.

You should also not treat meditation from a utilitarian perspective, with the goal of becoming happier, calmer, reduce stress, etc. These things get alternative better and worse or don't change at all from meditation. The permanent changes that it does produce appear to be... at some angle to all of that.

What I'd do in your position is to see to it that I get to go on a retreat (10-day or more). If nothing happens then, then you're probably neurologically unlucky in some very rare way, and you know that meditation is realistically not a good use of your time. More likely, however, you will finally get to experience what it means to make progress in meditation.

What I said above applies to insight meditation (vipassana). I have no experience with samatha, but from what I hear people say, it seems to take longer to get anywhere with that. It also does not produce lasting changes in the way that insight does, it's just fun, and once you have reliable access to jhanas, that may be nice - but it won't profoundly transform you.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I would suggest you to ignore Tim and I also suggest Tim avoids this thread of yours for now. 

"They have kept going in a period of doubht amd wanting to almost give up."

Can you describe this time of doubt and feeling of giving up a bit more? Is the doubt happening only during the sitting practice or off the cushion? 
What feelings do you experience off the cushion and what feelings/mind states do you experience on the cushion? 

Doubt is a serious and heavy mind state charged with unpleasant feeling and should be treated with utter respect and observed/noted. Also the source of doubt needs to be addressed and I hope Brandon and I answered your questions above. If not ask again what is not clear. 
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
I would suggest you to ignore Tim and I also suggest Tim avoids this thread of yours for now. 

"They have kept going in a period of doubht amd wanting to almost give up."

Can you describe this time of doubt and feeling of giving up a bit more? Is the doubt happening only during the sitting practice or off the cushion? 
What feelings do you experience off the cushion and what feelings/mind states do you experience on the cushion? 

Doubt is a serious and heavy mind state charged with unpleasant feeling and should be treated with utter respect and observed/noted. Also the source of doubt needs to be addressed and I hope Brandon and I answered your questions above. If not ask again what is not clear. 

Thank you for your responses you. Yours and Brandon's responses were the two most meaningful answers I have gotten here. They were extrodinarly useful. I have doubts about the noting working because meditation in itself has ot worked for 7 years. The doubt is happening both on the cushion and off the cushion. You and Brandon did indeed address the questions. The only thing is my track history. I am trying to have faith that this will be different. Thank you.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I suggest giving this method a chance. Give it a few months and establish a daily minimum 45 minutes sit. 

When you sit make sure you actually note at least one sensation a second. This should not be a problem for most people. In case it's difficult use the words "there is ... " and then label aloud the sensation you are noticing. "There is itching, there is coolness (on nostrils as you breath in), there is preassure (your bum against the cushion/chair), there is hearing, there is doubt, there is unpleasant ... 

Noting pace and loudness of the voice are all tools. Try to recognize each day once you sit what kind of terrain is your mind that day. If it's very unclear then use "there is ..." wording as it will calm you down by giving you more time to find a sensation. "There is" will also bring about Curiosity which is good. 

If it's hard to practice, there is doubt, disgust, misery, fear, restlessness then practice aloud by really  hearing yourself. Find a place where you can speak up a bit. Explain to the people you live with that is a part of this practice. 

Sometimes the mind terrain is clear and noting silently works better. 

Mind a Terrain changes all the time. This is the point. This is what we are trying to realize. Anicca! It's one of the 3 Characteristics/Perceptions of all experiences. 

What is your goal? Can you tell me what you are after. What should this practice do for you? 

emoticon 
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
I suggest giving this method a chance. Give it a few months and establish a daily minimum 45 minutes sit. 

When you sit make sure you actually note at least one sensation a second. This should not be a problem for most people. In case it's difficult use the words "there is ... " and then label aloud the sensation you are noticing. "There is itching, there is coolness (on nostrils as you breath in), there is preassure (your bum against the cushion/chair), there is hearing, there is doubt, there is unpleasant ... 

Noting pace and loudness of the voice are all tools. Try to recognize each day once you sit what kind of terrain is your mind that day. If it's very unclear then use "there is ..." wording as it will calm you down by giving you more time to find a sensation. "There is" will also bring about Curiosity which is good. 

If it's hard to practice, there is doubt, disgust, misery, fear, restlessness then practice aloud by really  hearing yourself. Find a place where you can speak up a bit. Explain to the people you live with that is a part of this practice. 

Sometimes the mind terrain is clear and noting silently works better. 

Mind a Terrain changes all the time. This is the point. This is what we are trying to realize. Anicca! It's one of the 3 Characteristics/Perceptions of all experiences. 

What is your goal? Can you tell me what you are after. What should this practice do for you? 

emoticon 

Thank you! The goal is to have meditation produce insight - after meeting with Daniel he said noting at a high rate would automatically put me on the path, So the practice should get me into the Mind & Body stage and then A & P.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Ok so you want insights. You do know that these Insights lead towards awakening/enlightenment? This road to awakening might include LOTS of PURIFICATION which might not be that pleasant!
Have you read Ingram's book called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha? That would give you MANY answers and would give you many warnings about what this journey might bring about. You can find this book for free online (might be part of this forum)

Insight stages start with Mind and Body, then Cause and Effect, then 3 Characteristics, and then Arising and Passing away. Then comes the 5 stages most of us call Dark Night, and so on ...

I hope you read Ingram's book so you know what this path can bring about as some stages can be VERY dark and unpleasant, as some can be VERY pleasant. 
It is good to arm yourself with Acceptance of good and bad stuff that might arise in this and as result of this practice. We are awakening to both pleasant and unpleasant feelings as well as those who are neutral. 

I can not hold your hand nor can anyone else. You will have to do this yourself with support from a teacher or this community or some other dhamma community that knows these insight maps and noting.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko:
Ok so you want insights. You do know that these Insights lead towards awakening/enlightenment? This road to awakening might include LOTS of PURIFICATION which might not be that pleasant!
Have you read Ingram's book called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha? That would give you MANY answers and would give you many warnings about what this journey might bring about. You can find this book for free online (might be part of this forum)

Insight stages start with Mind and Body, then Cause and Effect, then 3 Characteristics, and then Arising and Passing away. Then comes the 5 stages most of us call Dark Night, and so on ...

I hope you read Ingram's book so you know what this path can bring about as some stages can be VERY dark and unpleasant, as some can be VERY pleasant. 
It is good to arm yourself with Acceptance of good and bad stuff that might arise in this and as result of this practice. We are awakening to both pleasant and unpleasant feelings as well as those who are neutral. 

I can not hold your hand nor can anyone else. You will have to do this yourself with support from a teacher or this community or some other dhamma community that knows these insight maps and noting.

I've read his book and am aware of the dangers but isn't enlightenment everyone's goal? What's your goal in doing the Noting so intently?
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
My goal was always (since 2008), even before I found Buddhism, cessation of suffering. It still is. I know this entails Awakening/Enlightenment but my focus and motivation is cessation of suffering.

Also emoticon Im hardly doing Noting so "intently" as many here on this forum (and Im sure elsewere) do MUCH more intently noting than I EVER did or will do  emoticon 

I am trying to feel the change taking place. Insights might arise strong or just subtle. In case of subtle insight you might simple feel being in the different stage not even noticing any WOW feel about the previous stage emoticon 

So my suggestion would be to only be interested in what is right now happening in this moment and do that for the duration of 45 minutes minimum once a day. This is a very good way forward. Then feel how the stages unfold and how the need for sitting looks like. At times you wil feel to sit more and at times you will feel once a day for 45 minutes is all you can do without forcing it too much. The goal here is to have consistent daily noting practice for at least 45 minutes and not to force too much and then you give up emoticon 

Im suggesting Noting Aloud to keep you firmly locked in the Now-ness so you dont waste time in scenario spinning thoughts and feelings of doubt etc ... This is only for the sitting practice. In off-cushion life you can relax more and not stress about practice too much but when you sit then really do sit and do the noting with a pace thats adjusted to the terrai your mind is in. 

I always start by saying my intention first;
"I will now practice freestyle noting aloud as thought by my teacher Kenneth Folk and I will do that for 45 minutes to the best of my ability for the sake of attaining to full awakening for the benefit of myself and all other beings" then I start slowly by using the "There is ... itching, there is ..." and then feel the terrain my mind is in at that moment and adjust the noting pace and volume of the voice accordingly. This is simply not to get into fast noting while all is very unclear just for the sake (desire) of noting fast emoticon 

Ingram suggests 1 to 10 sensations per second meaning 1 sensation per second is also fine emoticon what you dont want is wasting too much of your sitting time on hindrances, thinking about the practice , having doubt which will bring about restlessness etc ... 

Do know that Mind and Body usually feels good and Cause and Effect is also not that bad but The 3 Characterisitcs can be very unpleasant as there might come agony from body jerks, body stiffness, body pains which can lead to unpleasant feelings and reactivity. Such negative stages need lots of Acceptance and Faith in this Path and keep on with daily Noting practice to get through them. We dont want to cling to any stage and we dont want to push away any stage. Acceptance and matter of fact noting will help in any case. 

For exampke Im now in a stage thats called The 3 Characteristics and I feel like shit emoticon I have had thoughts of giving up for the last two days but I know better and I keep sitting daily knowing that these stages are also subject to Anicca. So I keep sitting and noting without laps in mindfulness. This ought to result in stage called Arising and Passing Away and so on journey goes.
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Chris Marti, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 3865 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Sam, are you working with Daniel Ingram on a regular basis?
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Sam, are you working with Daniel Ingram on a regular basis?

No. We had one meeting where he laid out some options for a path for me and then he said he was going to give me over to a teacher that he would recomend. That's not happening so we touch base once in a while.
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Brandon Dayton:
Thanks for your answer. So Shinzen Young or Mahasi Sayadaw?

See, Hear, Feel is an adaptation of the Mahasi method. I find it to be the most accesible and easiest entry point into noting. Once you get familiarity with the practice, you can start adding in other labels and more complex approaches, but See, Hear, Feel will get you very far. I spent months and months with this.

One thing I found particularly helpful with it was using it to identify thoughts. When they come in the form of images, I note, "See" when they come in the form of dialogue, I note "Hear". Sometimes it is a word that I both see and hear in my mind and I note "See, Hear". Using the method was the first time I was able to be cleary be aware of my thoughts. That could be just because it was the technique that happened to be around when that level of awareness increased, but it seemed to be a very dramatic difference once I started with See, Hear, Feel.
Ok, its been all See-Hear-Feel for the last two days with one unique but imortant addition for me. I know thinking is under "Hear" but I have  noticed when noting "Hear" a whole bunch of times in a row for something continous like at AC outside, I sometimes get lost in the "Hear" and miiss critical thoughts. Simce I do a lot of planning thoughts and other thinking, I have just split out the word "thinking" from the other 3. Does this make sense Brandon?
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Brandon Dayton, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 456 Join Date: 9/24/19 Recent Posts
I know thinking is under "Hear" but I have  noticed when noting "Hear" a whole bunch of times in a row for something continous like at AC outside, I sometimes get lost in the "Hear" and miiss critical thoughts. Simce I do a lot of planning thoughts and other thinking, I have just split out the word "thinking" from the other 3.

That's fine to use another label, if it works for you. It's also okay to miss thoughts. By the nature of the practice you are going to miss most of what is going on. Just note what you are aware of in the most relaxed, loving, trusting way possible. You are doing it right. I promise. Being okay with how you are practicing and relaxing into it is a huge part of the equation.
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Tim,
I was going to ask you another question on noting. Daniel was very kind to meet with me on Skype yesterday and while leaving the private parts out, wanted me to start on this new ath by "noting all my sensations as fast as I can" and "Need to push the baud rate of capture." He said this really highly level of noting would put me on the path automatically.

I went to do my 1 hour sit today with Out LOud Noting and realized I pretty quickly ran out of words to use for noting. However, I did find a ton of them in the book Practical Insight Meditation which pretty much has it all.
lol, truly, sam, i am the last person to give you much in the way of guidance on noting. There are so many people here really qualified, expert, and masters of the nuances. Afer what I was able to glean from MCTB2, it was Chris Marti and Papa Che here who taught me anything at all I know about viapssana. This place has more great vipassana practioners than a fleabag hotel has fleas. They note every itch, exquisitely. 
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Tim,
I was going to ask you another question on noting. Daniel was very kind to meet with me on Skype yesterday and while leaving the private parts out, wanted me to start on this new ath by "noting all my sensations as fast as I can" and "Need to push the baud rate of capture." He said this really highly level of noting would put me on the path automatically.

I went to do my 1 hour sit today with Out LOud Noting and realized I pretty quickly ran out of words to use for noting. However, I did find a ton of them in the book Practical Insight Meditation which pretty much has it all.
lol, truly, sam, i am the last person to give you much in the way of guidance on noting. There are so many people here really qualified, expert, and masters of the nuances. Afer what I was able to glean from MCTB2, it was Chris Marti and Papa Che here who taught me anything at all I know about viapssana. This place has more great vipassana practioners than a fleabag hotel has fleas. They note every itch, exquisitely. 
I didn't know. You were answering my questions. Do you do something different than Vipassana?
Tim Farrington, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 2437 Join Date: 6/13/11 Recent Posts
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Tim,
I was going to ask you another question on noting. Daniel was very kind to meet with me on Skype yesterday and while leaving the private parts out, wanted me to start on this new ath by "noting all my sensations as fast as I can" and "Need to push the baud rate of capture." He said this really highly level of noting would put me on the path automatically.

I went to do my 1 hour sit today with Out LOud Noting and realized I pretty quickly ran out of words to use for noting. However, I did find a ton of them in the book Practical Insight Meditation which pretty much has it all.
lol, truly, sam, i am the last person to give you much in the way of guidance on noting. There are so many people here really qualified, expert, and masters of the nuances. Afer what I was able to glean from MCTB2, it was Chris Marti and Papa Che here who taught me anything at all I know about viapssana. This place has more great vipassana practioners than a fleabag hotel has fleas. They note every itch, exquisitely. 
I didn't know. You were answering my questions. Do you do something different than Vipassana?

I was encouraging you in your practice, most of the time, if you look it over here. The one specific "vipassana" answer i gave was a slam dunk. I have practiced in a number of traditions over the years, and currently identify on my job applications as a contemplative member of a little splinter sect of Judaism sometimes called The Way, sometimes called Christianity. One thing i have done relentlessly over that time is to attend to the breath, a common thread in all traditions. But really, for real rubber-meets-the-road vipassana guidance, try checking out Papa Che's wonderfully helpful https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19872769 , in which he uses the noting aloud technique. Watching those videos of him is a great way to start to get a sense of the working vocabulary of a great noting technique.

Also, you can never go wrong with shargrol:  https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#transitiontoeq 

And as i said, it was Chris Marti who gave me my first real taste of an approach to vipassana practice here at DhO. Steph S is another friend who really knows her shit. And all the people who come out of the woodwork at the first hint of a sincere practitioner, who you are in spades. You really stumbled intp the right circle of hell here, Sam of the Nations!
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Tim Farrington:
Sam Gentile:
Tim,
I was going to ask you another question on noting. Daniel was very kind to meet with me on Skype yesterday and while leaving the private parts out, wanted me to start on this new ath by "noting all my sensations as fast as I can" and "Need to push the baud rate of capture." He said this really highly level of noting would put me on the path automatically.

I went to do my 1 hour sit today with Out LOud Noting and realized I pretty quickly ran out of words to use for noting. However, I did find a ton of them in the book Practical Insight Meditation which pretty much has it all.
lol, truly, sam, i am the last person to give you much in the way of guidance on noting. There are so many people here really qualified, expert, and masters of the nuances. Afer what I was able to glean from MCTB2, it was Chris Marti and Papa Che here who taught me anything at all I know about viapssana. This place has more great vipassana practioners than a fleabag hotel has fleas. They note every itch, exquisitely. 
I didn't know. You were answering my questions. Do you do something different than Vipassana?

I was encouraging you in your practice, most of the time, if you look it over here. The one specific "vipassana" answer i gave was a slam dunk. I have practiced in a number of traditions over the years, and currently identify on my job applications as a contemplative member of a little splinter sect of Judaism sometimes called The Way, sometimes called Christianity. One thing i have done relentlessly over that time is to attend to the breath, a common thread in all traditions. But really, for real rubber-meets-the-road vipassana guidance, try checking out Papa Che's wonderfully helpful https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/19872769 , in which he uses the noting aloud technique. Watching those videos of him is a great way to start to get a sense of the working vocabulary of a great noting technique.

Also, you can never go wrong with shargrol:  https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#transitiontoeq 

And as i said, it was Chris Marti who gave me my first real taste of an approach to vipassana practice here at DhO. Steph S is another friend who really knows her shit. And all the people who come out of the woodwork at the first hint of a sincere practitioner, who you are in spades. You really stumbled intp the right circle of hell here, Sam of the Nations!
Thank you Tim!
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Chris Marti, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 3865 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Chris? How do I get started if I wanted to go back to Vipassana?

Hi, Sam.

If I were you I'd find a vipassana teacher and start there. It could be someone you can meet with face to face (my preference) or it could be someone you meet online using Skype or Zoom (my second choice). If you want a recommendation for someone who can meet with you online I can do that, so if you're interested please private message me here on DhO*.

Otherwise, you can pick up two books I can very much recommend, and read them thoroughly:

1. Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, 2nd Edition, by Daniel Ingram
2. Seeing that Frees, by Rob Burbea



<* No, Papa Che, it's not Kenneth Folk>
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:





<* No, Papa Che, it's not Kenneth Folk>

Oh emoticon in that case I might PM you also at some stage emoticon 
Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
Chris? How do I get started if I wanted to go back to Vipassana?

Hi, Sam.

If I were you I'd find a vipassana teacher and start there. It could be someone you can meet with face to face (my preference) or it could be someone you meet online using Skype or Zoom (my second choice). If you want a recommendation for someone who can meet with you online I can do that, so if you're interested please private message me here on DhO*.

Otherwise, you can pick up two books I can very much recommend, and read them thoroughly:

1. Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, 2nd Edition, by Daniel Ingram
2. Seeing that Frees, by Rob Burbea



<* No, Papa Che, it's not Kenneth Folk>

So, that's the way I'll proceed then. Thanks. I do need that recomendation of a teacher that I can meet with online but I have no idea of how to private message you emoticon. I have Daniel's book on KIndle and I'll get the other one.


Thanks so much!
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Chris Marti, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 3865 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
So, that's the way I'll proceed then. Thanks. I do need that recomendation of a teacher that I can meet with online but I have no idea of how to private message you emoticon. I have Daniel's book on KIndle and I'll get the other one.

Same, you can message me in DhO by using the Message" function. Open and view the file attached to this post.



Sam Gentile, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1023 Join Date: 5/4/20 Recent Posts
Chris Marti:
So, that's the way I'll proceed then. Thanks. I do need that recomendation of a teacher that I can meet with online but I have no idea of how to private message you emoticon. I have Daniel's book on KIndle and I'll get the other one.

Same, you can message me in DhO by using the Message" function. Open and view the file attached to this post.

I can't get it to work. Uner Recieient it wants your email address, not your name which I have tried.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1667 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Chris I tested this messaging on DhO right now and indeed I can not find you as Chris Marti so to select you. Your name does not exist in the list. Do you have another name here maybe?
agnostic, modified 11 Months ago.

RE: Nothing After 7 Years?

Posts: 1538 Join Date: 2/26/19 Recent Posts
That is some serious persistence sticking with this for 7 years - you could go a long way if you found something that actually worked for you!!! Telling you something has changed when your experience has not changed sounds like a brush-off. I hope you are not paying for this ...

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