noting and insight

meh ben, modified 4 Months ago at 8/3/22 12:54 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/3/22 12:54 PM

noting and insight

Posts: 2 Join Date: 7/15/22 Recent Posts
Hi
​​​​​​​
1. what's the advantage of noting technique for gaining insight?

2. İn mahasi sayadaw noting technique, there are notes for everything

For example body's physical movements notes like standing up,lifting,lying down etc

İ use shinzen youngs see hear feel technique and it has only three note(see,hear,feel)how can we adapt mahasi's notes to shinzen's noting system

For instance what correspond to lying down in shinzens noting system
thumbnail
Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 8/3/22 2:27 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/3/22 2:23 PM

RE: noting and insight

Posts: 1218 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
meh ben
Hi
​​​​​​​
1. what's the advantage of noting technique for gaining insight?

It depends on the person. Some people "like" a different practice better and they will do something they like more so the practice they like might be better for them.


2. İn mahasi sayadaw noting technique, there are notes for everything

For example body's physical movements notes like standing up,lifting,lying down etc

İ use shinzen youngs see hear feel technique and it has only three note(see,hear,feel)how can we adapt mahasi's notes to shinzen's noting system

For instance what correspond to lying down in shinzens noting system


Teachers have different reasons for teaching one style over another, usually they are teaching the style that they followed or that they thinks works best for the students they've had (which could reflect cultural differences) so the differences could be due to differences in the teachers.

In Shinzen's system you just note what you see hear and feel while lying down.
shargrol, modified 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 5:30 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 5:30 PM

RE: noting and insight

Posts: 1878 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
The purpose of noting is to (at least slightly) objectify what occurs in the mind. In this way, you can look more closely at what is occuring without completely identifying with it.

This is the basic difference to "being angry" versus "being aware of anger" --- does that make sense? If we feel anger and identify with it as our self, then we say "I am angry" but is we have a little bit of mindfulness we'll say "I have anger". It sounds like a small thing, but it results in a very different way of behaving. In the first case, "I am angry" , there is no perspective and we're probably going to lash out some way. In the second case, "I have anger", we're aware of anger but we aren't 100% identified with it. It is an emotion occuring within the body/mind but it isn't what "I" am. Does that difference make sense?

In terms of noting methods, it really depends on what is a good fit for the person. Sometimes people just need to use general "see, hear, feel" type labels to stay mindful and objective.

Sometimes using a framework of three big categories of noting like 1) sensations, 2) emotions, 3) categories of thought, and then using more specific notes for each category (for example, pressure, heat, tingling, pleasure, heaviness etc. for types of sensations) works for some people.

My own advice is to try making up your own notes at the rate of one note per out breath (so about 10-12 times a minute) and simply note one thing that is happening in the present moment. If you can do that, you know you are staying present while you're meditating. If you lose track, then just note whatever made you lose track (a distracting sensation, a strong emotions, a chain of thoughts about a particular subject) and congratulations --- you're mindful again. And then just start over again with noting at the rate of one note per out breath.

But ultimately, experiment and find what works for you.
thumbnail
Sigma Tropic, modified 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 5:46 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 5:46 PM

RE: noting and insight

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
1) there is no advantage that I can see in using the obsolete noting technique. It is only used as a last ditch attempt at salvaging mindfulness in the face of gross hindrances  
2) noting is only used if you don't have samatha. With samatha you just do vipassana in jhanas. Samatha route is much safer. If given the choice, please choose the samatha route. But you may be inclined to give up sense pleasures when you find that samatha is the best ever. So caution. 
thumbnail
Jim Smith, modified 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 7:52 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 7:52 PM

RE: noting and insight

Posts: 1218 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Sigma Tropic 1) there is no advantage that I can see in using the obsolete noting technique. It is only used as a last ditch attempt at salvaging mindfulness in the face of gross hindrances   2) noting is only used if you don't have samatha. With samatha you just do vipassana in jhanas. Samatha route is much safer. If given the choice, please choose the samatha route. But you may be inclined to give up sense pleasures when you find that samatha is the best ever. So caution. 


Hi Sigma Tropic,  

Have you posted about the type of practice you favor? Can you point me to any posts or websites that describe it?

​​​​​​​Thanks
thumbnail
Sigma Tropic, modified 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 9:29 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/4/22 9:13 PM

RE: noting and insight

Posts: 370 Join Date: 6/27/17 Recent Posts
Jim Smith
Sigma Tropic 1) there is no advantage that I can see in using the obsolete noting technique. It is only used as a last ditch attempt at salvaging mindfulness in the face of gross hindrances   2) noting is only used if you don't have samatha. With samatha you just do vipassana in jhanas. Samatha route is much safer. If given the choice, please choose the samatha route. But you may be inclined to give up sense pleasures when you find that samatha is the best ever. So caution. 


Hi Sigma Tropic,  

Have you posted about the type of practice you favor? Can you point me to any posts or websites that describe it?

​​​​​​​Thanks

Thanks for asking Jim, I favor the type of practice described in this log. and in Energy, Devotion, Magick, Bliss - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org

There is also a website I created  that has lots of practical discusiion if you're interested:
https://www.mybodhisattva.com
The Jhanas – SigmaTropic (mybodhisattva.com)
Here we see that the first jhana arises under two simple conditions- secluded from sensual objects, and secluded from unskillful qualities (of mind, i.e. the hindrances). The first jhana arises under these conditions. According to this instruction, removing the mind from sensuality and the hindrances brings about first jhana. The essence of first jhana is rapture and pleasure. Thus, when the mind is secluded from sensuality (not engaged in secual delight) and free from the hindrances (a state which can be cultivated reproducibly and made to arise on command), first jhana happens of its own accord – naturally.
Dependent Origination – SigmaTropic (mybodhisattva.com)
The mind registers an object, and through one of the sense organs, it arrives as a conscious experience. Very quickly, this experience undergoes a sort of mental series of examinations, the mind categorizes it as pleasant or unpleasant, there is a feeling of craving, and by referring to previous moments and furture moments there is clinging and these mind moments all interpenetrate and create the mass of mental activity that we consider normal consciousness.

I also favor the type of practice described in these texts:
dakpo-tashi-namgyal_clarifying-the-natural-stateDownload
The-Mind-Illuminated-by-CuladasaDownload
Maha_Boowa_The_Path_to_ArahantshipDownload
Brief Guide to the Ngöndro VisualizationDownload
DhammapadaDownload
meh ben, modified 4 Months ago at 8/5/22 10:31 AM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/5/22 10:30 AM

RE: noting and insight

Posts: 2 Join Date: 7/15/22 Recent Posts
thanks for your answers
thumbnail
Dream Walker, modified 4 Months ago at 8/5/22 1:31 PM
Created 4 Months ago at 8/5/22 1:31 PM

RE: noting and insight

Posts: 1478 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
To dig a little deeper into the shinzen stuff on the dho since there has been many many many discussions-
use google
site:www.dharmaoverground.org shinzen 

look at his site - https://www.shinzen.org/resources/#articles
especially this - https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/SeeHearFeelIntroduction_ver1.8.pdf

Noting is just noticing a present moment sensation then labeling it to keep up a consistant rhythm that keeps you on task so you don't wander off into story. Simple labels are great to start with. If you can stay on task without labels and just notice sensations - GREAT. When things get difficult labeling is a useful hack to fall back on. You can not help but get into concentration states from noticing the present moment sensations. More detailed labels (mahasi style) works the metacognition as bit more and keeps you from getting into autopilot when you have done labeling for a while.
Try both styles and see what works for you.
Good luck,
​​​​​​​~D