the affective layer

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carolin varley, modified 12 Years ago at 1/14/12 3:09 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/14/12 3:09 PM

the affective layer

Posts: 55 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
I was just hoping for some pointers on this practice I've been experimenting with recently.
I never realised before how quickly and subtily I react emotionally to my sense perceptions, particularly with sight. What I have started doing to get a better grip and understanding on my emotions and how they affect my life / make me act in certain ways is focusing on my mood/ feeling when I look at an object. I ask myself "what is stopping me from seeing this object as it ACTUALLY is?" Rather than seeing the symbolic chair, with all the memories and conotations that comes with it, what is seperating my perception from the way I purely percieve the chair? I have found this a good place to start asking HAITMOBA when mindlessly being run by emotions.
This has been very interesting, and worked particularly well in the beginning at weakening the affective layer, even if only momentarily, but now it's become less effective and my feelings are harder to deal with. Could this be because I want/ expect feelings to drop away?
Also, on a side note, could anyone give me any tips on tracing emotions/ if and how tracing emotions has worked for them? I'm finding it hard to pinpoint the incident that lead me to drop out of sensousness, and placing the last time I was happy, because it all seems relative and sometimes blurred by memory.

Thanks
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Bart Castelijns, modified 12 Years ago at 1/15/12 10:36 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/15/12 10:36 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 57 Join Date: 8/12/10 Recent Posts
worked particularly well in the beginning .. but now it's become less effective


That's a pattern that keeps popping up here and there. Stuff works in the beginning, then it stops working. Other than being disappointed one strategy is not working anymore, have you considered the fun element to figuring out a new strategy (for becoming happy)?

Also, on a side note, could anyone give me any tips on tracing emotions/ if and how tracing emotions has worked for them? I'm finding it hard to pinpoint the incident that lead me to drop out of sensousness, and placing the last time I was happy, because it all seems relative and sometimes blurred by memory.


In the DN, suffering is unrelated to the surrounding circumstances. (Mind you, I'm not claiming I've verified this from personal experience.)
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carolin varley, modified 12 Years ago at 1/18/12 9:29 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/18/12 9:29 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 55 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Thanks for the response. I took onboard what you said about just seeing it as an experiment, and enjoying the challenge of trying out new tecniques that might or might not work. It doesn't help me having a mindstate that depends on one thing working, and gets upset when it stops delivering. I have also found that 'things working' also depend alot on my mood, and when I resolve to be happy and calm, regardless of whether I feel practice is 'working' or not, things tend to start 'working' almost by themselves. Probably has to do with relaxing and letting go.
Anyway thanks again for the advice.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 12 Years ago at 1/15/12 11:11 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/15/12 11:11 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
carolin varley:
This has been very interesting, and worked particularly well in the beginning at weakening the affective layer, even if only momentarily, but now it's become less effective and my feelings are harder to deal with. Could this be because I want/ expect feelings to drop away?

There is no actual reason for something that used to work to stop working, in particular... it might just be as simple as forgetting what you were doing, initially. You forgot the mental inclination that led to the affective layer weakening earlier, and only remember the train of thought/investigation surrounding it. Now, replicating the train of thought/investigation only, the mental inclination no longer happens. Does that seem accurate? If so, then it's just a matter of remembering the inclination, and allowing any doubt about its functioning to fade (as 'doubt' in this case if a 'feeling' and not a fact, and all it will do is prevent the practice from working).
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Change A, modified 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 12:31 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 12:31 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 791 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
carolin varley:

This has been very interesting, and worked particularly well in the beginning at weakening the affective layer, even if only momentarily, but now it's become less effective and my feelings are harder to deal with. Could this be because I want/ expect feelings to drop away?


The method has become less effective because now you have started to deal with harder feelings, hence they have become harder to deal with (instincts are harder than everyday mundane feelings, sunbconscious feelings are harder than conscious ones).


carolin varley:

Also, on a side note, could anyone give me any tips on tracing emotions/ if and how tracing emotions has worked for them? I'm finding it hard to pinpoint the incident that lead me to drop out of sensousness, and placing the last time I was happy, because it all seems relative and sometimes blurred by memory.


I was at a similar position that you find yourself in now. I could not find out what made me start to feel bad. Having had no luck with Actualism method (HAIETMOBA) from that time on, I turned to Vajrayana. The advice that I got from this forum at that point was that it is not necessary to find out what caused me to start feeling less than good. It was very difficult for me to get out of the pits and it would take me a very long time before I could get out.

Now I can exactly pinpoint what went through my head which made me lose my awareness of sensations. And it hardly takes any time. The moment I become aware of all the sensations (with no residual gross sensations) in my body, there is no affective layer at that very moment.

Actualism method is not powerful enough to get to the level of the instincts. There are residual instincts left, that is why AFers sometimes talk vaguely.
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Nikolai , modified 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 12:48 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 12:45 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Aman A.:
carolin varley:

This has been very interesting, and worked particularly well in the beginning at weakening the affective layer, even if only momentarily, but now it's become less effective and my feelings are harder to deal with. Could this be because I want/ expect feelings to drop away?


The method has become less effective because now you have started to deal with harder feelings, hence they have become harder to deal with (instincts are harder than everyday mundane feelings, sunbconscious feelings are harder than conscious ones).


carolin varley:

Also, on a side note, could anyone give me any tips on tracing emotions/ if and how tracing emotions has worked for them? I'm finding it hard to pinpoint the incident that lead me to drop out of sensousness, and placing the last time I was happy, because it all seems relative and sometimes blurred by memory.


I was at a similar position that you find yourself in now. I could not find out what made me start to feel bad. Having had no luck with Actualism method (HAIETMOBA) from that time on, I turned to Vajrayana. The advice that I got from this forum at that point was that it is not necessary to find out what caused me to start feeling less than good. It was very difficult for me to get out of the pits and it would take me a very long time before I could get out.

Now I can exactly pinpoint what went through my head which made me lose my awareness of sensations. And it hardly takes any time. The moment I become aware of all the sensations (with no residual gross sensations) in my body, there is no affective layer at that very moment.

Actualism method is not powerful enough to get to the level of the instincts. There are residual instincts left, that is why AFers sometimes talk vaguely.


What is a better method, Aman, in your own experience? Were you able to progress with another technique? If so, what was it and how did it work better?

Thanks for starting to talk about your own experience rather than just criticisms of Richard, Af, actualism, the actualist practice etc etc. It contributes much more to the practical bent of the DhO.

Looking forward to hearing about the better technique in your own experience as the pragmatic dharma stance seems to be 'whatever works'.

Nick
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Change A, modified 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 1:32 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 1:32 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 791 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:

What is a better method, Aman, in your own experience? Were you able to progress with another technique? If so, what was it and how did it work better?

Thanks for starting to talk about your own experience rather than just criticisms of Richard, Af, actualism, the actualist practice etc etc. It contributes much more to the practical bent of the DhO.

Looking forward to hearing about the better technique in your own experience as the pragmatic dharma stance seems to be 'whatever works'.

Nick


Vajrayana practices are much better. For myself, these included visualizations of the Tibetan deities and also Kum Nye movement exercises. Later even simple movements for 'lubricating the joints' helped in removing the tightness in the body. They worked better in making the instincts visible and how they produced different sensations in the body. Having experienced this, now whenever some gross sensation appears in the body, I come to know what it is related to (which instinctual response say fear or aggression). Hence it is much easier to make them go away. I get all the answers as to what caused me to feel less than good. Just sitting meditation didn't give me answers neither did AF methods.

With continued practice, it is getting easier and easier to make gross sensations go away and many gross sensations don't even appear now.
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Nikolai , modified 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 1:47 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 1:47 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Aman A.:


Vajrayana practices are much better. For myself, these included visualizations of the Tibetan deities and also Kum Nye movement exercises. Later even simple movements for 'lubricating the joints' helped in removing the tightness in the body. They worked better in making the instincts visible and how they produced different sensations in the body. Having experienced this, now whenever some gross sensation appears in the body, I come to know what it is related to (which instinctual response say fear or aggression). Hence it is much easier to make them go away. I get all the answers as to what caused me to feel less than good. Just sitting meditation didn't give me answers neither did AF methods.

With continued practice, it is getting easier and easier to make gross sensations go away and many gross sensations don't even appear now.


Hi Aman,

It is good to know that this differing approach worked for you. Sometimes certain techniques work for some and not for others depending on personality type and personal 'stuff' one has to work with. I used a variety of approaches myself which helped concerning the instincts including vipassana and AF practices. The combo worked for me.

Would you be willing to talk in detail of the movement exercises so that others could possibly put them into practice here at the DhO? The even simpler 'lubricating the joints' instructions could also be helpful for yogis at the DhO trying to deal with the instincts. Would you also be willing to walk me though the tibetan visualization practice?

Nick
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Change A, modified 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 3:17 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/16/12 3:17 AM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 791 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:

Would you be willing to talk in detail of the movement exercises so that others could possibly put them into practice here at the DhO? The even simpler 'lubricating the joints' instructions could also be helpful for yogis at the DhO trying to deal with the instincts. Would you also be willing to walk me though the tibetan visualization practice?


For Kum Nye, I used the book 'Tibetan Relaxation: The illustrated Guide to Kum Nye Massage and Movement' by Tarthang Tulku. I found that the self-massage given in this book is also great for loosening tension in the body that is otherwise very difficult to go away. Tarthang recommends breathing evenly through both mouth and nose and this I found to be very helpful.

And I follow the above way of breathing when doing general stretching exercises and the 'lubricating the joints' exercise which are given in the book Total Stretch by Roscoe Nash. Maybe yogis can try this way of breathing doing general stretching exercises and see if it is useful or not.

I started with visualization of Tibetan deities before starting with the above mentioned movement exercises. That itself increased the flexibility in my body. Before I had a hard time touching the ground with my hands, afterwards it was a lot easier.

Starting with the visualization is not recommended without first doing the preliminaries. Also one must have an experience of renunciation, bodhichitta and emptiness. I didn't do the preliminaries but I did have the experience of renunciation, boddhichitta and emptiness because of my sitting meditation. Visualization fuels the instincts so powerfully that without having an experience in these, it can knock one off to say the least. It took me to the deepest parts of the mind where there is no social identity whatsoever. Deep inside, it is raw animal nature red in tooth and claw that prevails. Living in a civilized world means this has to be repressed and this causes discontentment. Because of the inherent dangers of Vajrayana practices such as visualization, I don't know if you will be fine walking the same path as myself?
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Felipe C, modified 12 Years ago at 1/18/12 12:31 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/18/12 12:26 PM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 221 Join Date: 5/29/11 Recent Posts
carolin varley:
This has been very interesting, and worked particularly well in the beginning at weakening the affective layer, even if only momentarily, but now it's become less effective and my feelings are harder to deal with. Could this be because I want/ expect feelings to drop away?


The other day I listened to this TED Talk called The riddle of experience vs. memory where the author talks about "how our 'experiencing selves' and our 'remembering selves' perceive happiness differently". I recommend that you check it out.

Along with the great advice already given here, maybe you should check if there's the case that you've raised the bar and you are becoming more and more strict with your standards of happiness and there is a difference in your judgment. Compare how you were before practice and how are you doing right now. Maybe you perceive more suffering than before, not because there is more, but because you are more attentive now, or maybe you forgot how that same emotions felt before practice. It's part of the method getting an obsession with how the emotions, thoughts and perceptions work, just try to keep that "obsession" in healthy levels.

The advice from Richard that you become your best friend is useful here. Be objective, recognize your progress and don't expect immediate changes. Just enjoy the ride emoticon
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carolin varley, modified 12 Years ago at 1/20/12 1:01 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/20/12 1:01 PM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 55 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Great video!
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carolin varley, modified 12 Years ago at 1/31/12 3:50 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/31/12 3:50 PM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 55 Join Date: 8/26/10 Recent Posts
Just a comment on the video you mentioned: After watching this video I have started noticing how inaccurate and distorted my memories often are. When practicing especially I can be sitting there calmly, enjoying the moment, and then a minute later I will have spun this intricate story about how I have been sitting here for half an hour and how 'I'm not making progress/ haven't been enjoying myself'. Before I just took these stories as fact, but now I keep noticing these enormous discrepencies between what actually happened, and what my feelings/ thoughts at a later time are telling me what happened. It makes negative thoughts/ feelings about practice (that are the main obstacle anyway) alot easier to discredit. Our identity self simply doesn't know what they are talking about. It's like the Daily Mail; you believe the elaborate stories if its all you have been fed your whole life, but the minute you start to question it you find out it doesn't know what its talking about.
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Felipe C, modified 12 Years ago at 1/31/12 7:49 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 1/31/12 7:47 PM

RE: the affective layer

Posts: 221 Join Date: 5/29/11 Recent Posts
carolin varley:

It's like the Daily Mail; you believe the elaborate stories if its all you have been fed your whole life, but the minute you start to question it you find out it doesn't know what its talking about.


From Trent:

all you've gotta do to make it happen is set aflame a propagandist
'news stand' that only ever peddles obnoxious distractions anyway ...
like silly paparazzi infatuations and conspiracy theory mad-paranoia.


Yay for media similes! Let attentiveness be the editor in chief and fact checker that stops the lies and the madness.
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