How to evaluate teachers? - Discussion
How to evaluate teachers?
M T, modified 11 Years ago at 9/10/13 8:45 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/10/13 8:45 PM
How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 11 Join Date: 8/26/13 Recent Posts
I have a few worries about dharma teachers.
Firstly, a lot of them want monetary compensation... doesn't this create an inherent conflict of interest?
Secondly, how do you know they've reached enlightenment? Unless there's a dharmic credentialing service, this seems like a nebulous task.
Thirdly, how do you evaluate their teaching ability? The fact someone has reached enlightenment doesn't indicate they have any skill in guiding someone else.
Even more fundamentally, are teachers really the best way to receive guidance down the dharmic path? Could a book, a forum, or self-reliance suffice in their place, or are teachers/gurus really recommended?
Firstly, a lot of them want monetary compensation... doesn't this create an inherent conflict of interest?
Secondly, how do you know they've reached enlightenment? Unless there's a dharmic credentialing service, this seems like a nebulous task.
Thirdly, how do you evaluate their teaching ability? The fact someone has reached enlightenment doesn't indicate they have any skill in guiding someone else.
Even more fundamentally, are teachers really the best way to receive guidance down the dharmic path? Could a book, a forum, or self-reliance suffice in their place, or are teachers/gurus really recommended?
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 9/10/13 10:34 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/10/13 10:01 PM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
That is challenging. [edited for simplicity]
Here's a buddhist answer for a pretty buddhist forum from the Anguttar Nikaya 5.159, copied from accesstoinsight.org (which I think is paid for by one man...I'm not sure if dana can be offered or if I'm correct. A friend just told me recently that they wrote the site founder to thank him). Anyway:
[indent]"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five?
"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'
"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'
"[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.'
"[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'
"[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without disparaging myself or others.'
"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching."[/indent]
That's personal and subjective. Though when many, many people think it, it can help persons who're struggling just to settle on a practice and a teacher. Personally, it seems to me there's a lot of enlightened, amazing behaviour that sprouts from any kind of people a lot of times in both incredible and regular daily circumstances. I don't know if there are enlightened people, really, but yes, enlightened action (to me).
Nice question. I hope this helps.
Here's a buddhist answer for a pretty buddhist forum from the Anguttar Nikaya 5.159, copied from accesstoinsight.org (which I think is paid for by one man...I'm not sure if dana can be offered or if I'm correct. A friend just told me recently that they wrote the site founder to thank him). Anyway:
[indent]"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five?
"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'
"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'
"[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.'
"[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'
"[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without disparaging myself or others.'
"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching."[/indent]
Secondly, how do you know they've reached enlightenment?
Nice question. I hope this helps.
Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 1:29 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 1:25 AM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent PostsM T:
Firstly, a lot of them want monetary compensation... doesn't this create an inherent conflict of interest?
It depends upon how one is able to evaluate the person before they accept them as their teacher.
My initial teacher/guide was a Western priest/metaphysician, a former Trappist monk who had also studied with SRF (Yogananda's group in California). Needless to say, he didn't teach Gotama's Dhamma, yet he was familiar with both Eastern and Western philosophical ideas and had a lot of knowledge about how the mind worked. At least, I thought so at the time. After spending some time talking with him, I knew he knew more than I did, was more together in his life, and was generally happier than myself. At the time, I was undergoing an acute depression, and had been through at least three other people who I looked toward to help me figure things out, but who each failed to be able to help me change myself. But this priest was different from the others: self-confidence, bright and intelligent, insightful, a brilliant observer of human nature, he knew what he was talking about, and he was happy. It was that last attribute that I was seeking at the time, in addition to learning more about the process of self-realization and whatever this thing called "enlightenment" was. One more thing: I had confidence that he could do what he promised he could do.
However, he didn't come cheap. Cost me (if memory serves) around $3400 for the first three individual courses I took from him, and overall close to $100,000 after nine years, seven of those as a monk in his private religious order serving in a variety of capacities to pay my way. After the first course, the Life Control Seminar (this was in the early 1980s, just after all the hubbub about Werner Erhart's est and L.Ron Hubbard's Scientology when expensive self-help gurus started showing up on the landscape), I was convinced that this man must know the way to nirvana (whatever that was in my mind at the time). Within eight short weeks, he had managed to help me overcome a debilitating depression and begin to have some confidence in myself once again. It was at that point that I became interested in his method of training and began studying it as much as wanting to undergo more of it.
So, you see, it can be on a very individual basis in which one takes such a life changing decision and makes such an evaluation of the person they choose as a guide and teacher. My experience, though, is an exception to the question you are asking.
In today's world (especially in the West) there are few people who are able to support their efforts at teaching the Dhamma without asking for some sort of donation or fee that it becomes very difficult for them to survive. We don't have the same supporting traditions here as they have in Asian countries. Teaching is not something that is very easily done on a part time basis, especially for those who really do know what they are doing. So, keep an open mind, be skeptical, and challenge anyone who you might think meets the qualification for being your teacher or guide.
M T:
Secondly, how do you know they've reached enlightenment? Unless there's a dharmic credentialing service, this seems like a nebulous task.
You don't. That's something you have to take on faith (and personal observation of the person over a long length of time) before you can begin to have confidence in their personal achievement.
In the past as in the present, the "dhammic credentialing service" has generally been with whom can one trace back the person's teaching lineage. But even this can be deceiving at times. For example, both Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Brahmavamso (Englishmen both) trained with Ajahn Chah in the Thai Forest Tradition. After having read their writings and seen a bit of each of these monks, if I had to choose one today to study under, it would be Aj. Sumedho. There's something lacking in Aj. Brahms demeanor and discernment about certain things that turns me off.
Your best bet is to develop a little discernment of your own and be able to observe the person over a long length of time to see how they handle their life. Look for obvious contradictions in what they say as opposed to what they do. Nothing comes easily in this endeavor. You have to work at it and so does your prospective teacher/guide, if you are to become impressed enough by them to choose them over someone else.
M T:
Thirdly, how do you evaluate their teaching ability? The fact someone has reached enlightenment doesn't indicate they have any skill in guiding someone else.
This is something that you have to allow some time for. There are different teaching methods depending upon the person with whom one comes in contact. A Zen teacher may be a bit more out there in terms of what they might do to "awaken" your mind than a Theravadin teacher. One way to begin evaluating the teacher is to watch what they tell you to do or read and how they handle teaching the basics of the Dhamma. If they start leaving important things out (like de-emphasizing being able to walk the noble eightfold path, or putting less emphasis on learning about satipatthana) then they aren't doing you any favors. Learn the basics of the Dhamma first and be able to discern when they are teaching you something about this or that aspect of it. You have to take some responsibility in this, too, or else you are just cheating yourself.
M T:
Even more fundamentally, are teachers really the best way to receive guidance down the dharmic path? Could a book, a forum, or self-reliance suffice in their place, or are teachers/gurus really recommended?
Having a qualified and credible guide to help you walk the path is inestimable in terms of the time they may help save you in making that journey. Yet, having said that, a lot depends upon you and how quickly you are able to pick things up and use them in your practice. Books are a good secondary source. But having an actual living role model who knows what you are going through and how to help you get over the barriers you put up in your own way is absolutely priceless. I'd even venture to say that anyone who thinks that they can get along without at some point having had contact with a qualified teacher or guide is just deluding themselves that they can accomplish this on their own.
If I hadn't had the early contact with my primary teacher, I doubt I could have discerned enough from the books and treatises I read to help me successfully tread this path. The experiences I had while in contact with that person and the lessons I learned were just irreplaceable. And they helped me to make sense of many of the pieces I read because I knew what the author was talking about because I, too, had lived it!
Daniel M Ingram, modified 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 3:06 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 3:06 AM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 3279 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
The money thing is a tough one. The advantage of teachers who don't teach for money, or teach just for donations, is that they raise less questions about motivation. That doesn't mean that teaching for money is necessarily bad if they teach good dharma, are straightforward about what the arrangement is, and you can afford it. It can make people more accessible as they don't have to have other ways to support themselves that take away from their dharma teaching time. I personally do have some questions about some of those that do teach for donations, as to live on donations often requires a relatively high degree of popularity, and the quest for popularity can have variable effects one's dharma teaching. In general, money can be a corrupting influence for some to varying degrees, and exactly how much that effects any individual teacher at each moment is really hard to get a handle on most of the time: as they said: sort it out for yourself. On the other hand, there is something really straightforward about someone saying: "I teach for $X per hour. That's the deal." That allows you to not have to play the how-much-to-donate game, gives you a feeling of assurance that for that hour (an amount of time you are very unlikely to get from the donation-based teachers most of the time) they are yours, and that all obligations on both sides are in some ways nicely wrapped up at the end.
As to whether or not they have reached "enlightenment": it is worth knowing that the range of how "enlightenment" is defined out there is quite wide. Credentialing services have risen and fallen, but the general advice to stick with major, well-known teachers from major centers that have been doing this a long time is pretty good, if not fool-proof, advice. The meaning of lineage varies by the lineage, so you can try asking. My favorite teachers were those who had lineage transmission, had been doing it a long time, and taught at major, recognized centers, with the exception of Bill Hamilton, who was a rogue out in a trailer.
Teaching ability is also a nebulous thing: one person might be a good teacher for one person and not another. It is in many ways a question of fit. Teaching styles vary widely, as do learning styles. This just takes experimentation, as you won't really know how it feels to be with them until you are there and hear what they have to say to you and see how their instructions perform. It is definitely possible to get a sense of people's styles and strengths and weaknesses by reading their stuff, talking to people who have sat with them, etc., but some part of it is just going to have to be reality tested for yourself. I had a few teachers who didn't road test as they were advertised, and I couldn't have known that before hand easily. It also depends on what you want to know, as skill sets vary widely between teachers: this also can be surprising.
People who practice well are, in general, a real help to practice, though they might be dharma friends, teachers, or just people you know and talk to on occasion. Online fora like this also can be good, but I would try to fine someone to actually talk with. Books and the like are also useful, but there really is something to hanging out with people who do this stuff well.
As to whether or not they have reached "enlightenment": it is worth knowing that the range of how "enlightenment" is defined out there is quite wide. Credentialing services have risen and fallen, but the general advice to stick with major, well-known teachers from major centers that have been doing this a long time is pretty good, if not fool-proof, advice. The meaning of lineage varies by the lineage, so you can try asking. My favorite teachers were those who had lineage transmission, had been doing it a long time, and taught at major, recognized centers, with the exception of Bill Hamilton, who was a rogue out in a trailer.
Teaching ability is also a nebulous thing: one person might be a good teacher for one person and not another. It is in many ways a question of fit. Teaching styles vary widely, as do learning styles. This just takes experimentation, as you won't really know how it feels to be with them until you are there and hear what they have to say to you and see how their instructions perform. It is definitely possible to get a sense of people's styles and strengths and weaknesses by reading their stuff, talking to people who have sat with them, etc., but some part of it is just going to have to be reality tested for yourself. I had a few teachers who didn't road test as they were advertised, and I couldn't have known that before hand easily. It also depends on what you want to know, as skill sets vary widely between teachers: this also can be surprising.
People who practice well are, in general, a real help to practice, though they might be dharma friends, teachers, or just people you know and talk to on occasion. Online fora like this also can be good, but I would try to fine someone to actually talk with. Books and the like are also useful, but there really is something to hanging out with people who do this stuff well.
tom moylan, modified 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 4:34 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 4:33 AM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
Howdy Mt,
Daniel's book (Masteriung the Core Teachings of the Buddha) is dedicated to Bill Hamilton who wrote a book called "Saints and Psychopaths". Aside from being a great read in and of itself, the basic premise of the book goes directly to your question.
If you are an eBook kind of person you can get a free copy of it here
have fun
tom
Daniel's book (Masteriung the Core Teachings of the Buddha) is dedicated to Bill Hamilton who wrote a book called "Saints and Psychopaths". Aside from being a great read in and of itself, the basic premise of the book goes directly to your question.
If you are an eBook kind of person you can get a free copy of it here
have fun
tom
Julie V, modified 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 8:10 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 8:10 AM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 82 Join Date: 8/17/10 Recent Posts
Thanks for asking these questions. I have been dealing with those questions a lot recently too.
From my experiences with dharma in Thailand so far, I found that there are many who claimed to be dharma teachers here and claimed to teach meditation techniques. Of course, most of these are for free around here and you don't even have to worry about how much to give. There are so many people so you can give whatever amount you want. The drawback though has been that without any money you have to pay, people who go there sometimes just don't appreciate what they are given. In fact, I think part of what made me stuck to meditation when I started being serious about it in the US was the fact that I already paid money for that program! Also, there is no guarantee the free program will run well or how qualified the teachers are. Of course, there is always the good part that it's free and accessible to anyone.
As for whether they are enlightened, I'm still dealing with that question myself. I basically just went to theirr talks and listened to what they said and observed if they knew what they are talking about. Of course, I met some people here with that quality but then, they don't teach the way I liked or am comfortable with.
I loved both main teachers I had in the US in the past, as they can help guide me through my delution. In fact, every time I had an interview with my previous teacher, I ended up crying afterward almost every time, but it was helpful. It was something that would be harder to catch on my own.
From my experiences with dharma in Thailand so far, I found that there are many who claimed to be dharma teachers here and claimed to teach meditation techniques. Of course, most of these are for free around here and you don't even have to worry about how much to give. There are so many people so you can give whatever amount you want. The drawback though has been that without any money you have to pay, people who go there sometimes just don't appreciate what they are given. In fact, I think part of what made me stuck to meditation when I started being serious about it in the US was the fact that I already paid money for that program! Also, there is no guarantee the free program will run well or how qualified the teachers are. Of course, there is always the good part that it's free and accessible to anyone.
As for whether they are enlightened, I'm still dealing with that question myself. I basically just went to theirr talks and listened to what they said and observed if they knew what they are talking about. Of course, I met some people here with that quality but then, they don't teach the way I liked or am comfortable with.
I loved both main teachers I had in the US in the past, as they can help guide me through my delution. In fact, every time I had an interview with my previous teacher, I ended up crying afterward almost every time, but it was helpful. It was something that would be harder to catch on my own.
Banned For waht?, modified 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 1:06 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/11/13 12:42 PM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
It can be done without a teacher. with book knowledge. Your teacher will be for example "gatha" etc.
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew drops and a lightning flash:
Contemplate them thus.
(diamond sutra)
There is times when i need a teacher to ground my feelings, anger and success.
So i found forums, haha. But i joined more liberated forum first where i could put on my all rants often insane and moslty whining out there, it kept me concentrated on path and helped to find flaws what i do and whats wrong with me.
Also i tested people in real life too, talked about stuff what is half neurotic insane etc..but at that moment felt right.
There is nothing much to teach on this subject of enlightenment. It can be done without knowing nothing about jhanas, concentration, what is mindfulness etc.
At first i will go insane how the hell its possible then after done it then its hard to understand how others can't understand this simple thing.
all i did is looked what i have now in this moment and investigated it in every possible way all day long. Then things start pacing and you will discover some things about how to correctly meditate and you can proceed fast from there.
edited.
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew drops and a lightning flash:
Contemplate them thus.
(diamond sutra)
There is times when i need a teacher to ground my feelings, anger and success.
So i found forums, haha. But i joined more liberated forum first where i could put on my all rants often insane and moslty whining out there, it kept me concentrated on path and helped to find flaws what i do and whats wrong with me.
Also i tested people in real life too, talked about stuff what is half neurotic insane etc..but at that moment felt right.
There is nothing much to teach on this subject of enlightenment. It can be done without knowing nothing about jhanas, concentration, what is mindfulness etc.
At first i will go insane how the hell its possible then after done it then its hard to understand how others can't understand this simple thing.
all i did is looked what i have now in this moment and investigated it in every possible way all day long. Then things start pacing and you will discover some things about how to correctly meditate and you can proceed fast from there.
edited.
Chris G, modified 11 Years ago at 9/18/13 10:57 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/18/13 10:57 AM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 118 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent PostsM T:
Thirdly, how do you evaluate their teaching ability? The fact someone has reached enlightenment doesn't indicate they have any skill in guiding someone else.
Look at the students! Are they well-balanced emotionally? Can they explain the dhamma? Based on their own comments, do they seem to be making progress on their paths? Do they speak coherently? Are they courteous and empathic? Do they make good eye contact? Do they seem successful in their personal lives?
Even if they're not fully enlightened, if you can find a teacher with a group of students who are intelligent, open-minded, emotionally balanced, and practice earnestly, then at least you'll be in good company. Better still if the students seem to be making real progress in the dhamma.
Derek, modified 11 Years ago at 9/18/13 4:40 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/18/13 4:40 PM
RE: How to evaluate teachers?
Posts: 326 Join Date: 7/21/10 Recent Posts
It's a very good question.
I don't have a problem with paying money for teachers.
But there is a great problem of charismatic but flawed individuals appearing to be helpful, when in fact they are anything but.
I don't think peer review or accreditation would necessarily solve this problem because of the quis custodiet custodies question.
Probably the best method is open public scrutiny and supervision, and a free press.
I don't have a problem with paying money for teachers.
But there is a great problem of charismatic but flawed individuals appearing to be helpful, when in fact they are anything but.
I don't think peer review or accreditation would necessarily solve this problem because of the quis custodiet custodies question.
Probably the best method is open public scrutiny and supervision, and a free press.