Hello. So I have been seeking a teacher and recently did an interview with Kenneth Folk but I can't afford to talk with him as often as I would like so I shall post on here as I feel a bit stuck. He thought I was in the DN after I shared a bit of my experience and soon after the interview I felt like there was some growing EQ but I have no idea. Perhaps I am still early on the path.

i sit for 3 to 4 hours a day and do the noting practice. When I realize I have been lost there is an awareness of the residual tension and at times a great acceptance of the process but there is also some doubt. Thinking that it should be otherwise. Sometimes I become quite present and there is peace and some concentration when the wanting of. SE begins to go away. A little. There can be joy and happiness here that this sort of peace is available. I note these things I believe. I notice sensations and vibrations and their vedena. Sometimes it feels like I am dropping into some deeper space and sometimes there is a sense of expansiveness and spaciousness. This is only sometimes. There are still times of restlessness and aversion of course. I note these things as well.

I sat this morning and there was not much concentration. Much wandering mind. I bring in more noting and it feels to harsh. Like I can't drop into that spacious place. I realized that just doing a broad more infrequent noting could be useful instead and can allow me to receive the subtlety of the sensations when my mind is there with them. But alas. The mind wanders when I release the noting just a bit. In writing all this I see. Yes I should just continue to notice these things but alas, I want to go deeper. Wanting is happening. And so, any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read all this.

Bobby

You will get much better feedback If you enumerate your questions.
You did not use any question marks in your post but included -

That is a statement also. If you can organize your thoughts and ask specific questions and what your current goal is then it will be easier to give you specific advice. Also a bit more information about your past and current practice could be useful.
Have you read MCTB?
Thanks,
~D

Note "lost", "tension", "lost",



Note "wanting (otherwise)", "desire', "urge", "dissatisfaction" etc



Note "peace", "joy", "wanting" etc.


You mean the desire for SE goes away? Note "fading (desire)", "gone", "whatever replaces the wanting" etc.




Good. Keep doing that. Notice the desire for something better though or desire for experience not to end.




Note the perceptions of "space" and "expansiveness".



Good. Keep doing that.



Note "wandering", "no concentration", "restlessness", "sluggishness" etc.



Note the feeling tone shifts i.e. "harsh-unpleasant" etc.



Note the desire to drop into that spacious place.



Good. Do what works for you.



If it doesn't work for you, train the mind to catch the "wandering" sooner rather than later by simply noting "wandering" when the mind remembers to notice and note. It will get easier to catch such mental movements.



Note "wanting to go deeper". It is pretty simple. Co-opt the 'craving' and 'wanting' into your practice. Those occurrences of craving are arising and passing all the time. Rather than create more craving running from the craving, and not wanting it to arise (i.e. craving craving's demise), make it part and parcel of the practice. Resolve to include 'craving' and its compounding elements/aspects into the mix. Notice what makes up an 'urge' to acquire or get rid of. Note the compounding phenomena that creates this display of wanting. Co-opt the craving as just more grist for the mill to quote KF.

This is what I did. And my practice naturally 'went deeper', without me fumbling over 'wanting to go deeper'. I also took this on board too. Co-opt the urges, desires, wanting and craving into just more phenomena that gets noticed and noted. Craving sucks balls when it isn't noticed as it arises and as it passes. The phenomena compounding into the experience of 'craving' when broken apart by the light of seeing the compounding in real time, is given the space to actual disassemble and cease to be 'craving'. Then you are just noticing and perhaps noting the 'parts' that made it up i.e. sensations, feeling tone, images, mental overlays/mind states, thoughts.

Nick

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

Okay. I have recently found that this is an influential amount of time to sit: it is a part-time job at 28 hours a week, if the practice is every day. That causes a build up of skills exactly as if one reported to a part-time job 28 hours a week.
Are you sitting daily or how many times a week?
Is it broken into groups, or
Is it one 3- to 4-hour sit?
What time(s) day do you sit?

Aside from the paid person you mention, do you listen to and like any particular free talks online by certain teachers?

Do you like the method of noting? Does Nikolai's personal experience in his blog resonate with you?
It helps to have a method you like.

Do you know yet why you want stream-entry, e.g., to gain a feeling (e.g., happiness, freedom from external conditions) or to lose a particular feeling (e.g., depression, fear)?


And/or did any particular teacher, writing or experience inspire you to start you practicing?

Are changes in your life --- work, social, internal/external relating --- inspiring your practice?

Are you dealing with strong/escalating emotions like depression or anger?


Noting is not typically considered a concentration practice. Noting is not my native cuppa tea; however, when I have done it, to see what people are trying I see that noting certainly is like preparing for first jhana, initial and applied attention. It is a study that gets very rapid. I have heard from friends that noting has certainly helped some of them.

Because I like jhana and jhana has helped me, I recommend its consideration, too, (since you mentioned "concentration") if you have not already. Jhana trains the mind in a positive way to steady itself; these are very natural states of mind that everyone probably encounters sometime in their life unless they have had nothing but miserable conditions from birth. If you are doing four hours a day, daily, jhana can be developed, too. When you notice "joy and happiness (...) peace is available" you have an inkling of this concentration. There are 40 objects of meditation and you can find those listed in Wikipedia. Recently I heard this talk by the nun Khema.

Also, I like how Goenka develops concentration (jhana) for four days and then takes that calmed mind to directed observation in the next six days of a ten-day retreat. Do you listen to him?

I've asked you a lot of questions since you've just entered the forum and you already have some replies to consider.


Best wishes in your work, Bobby. To me, it is a worthwhile study, one's own mind, challenging and rewarding depending on my intention and sincerity.

Thank you D,
I have been practicing for about five years. More seriously in the past few. I have done the ims three month the last two years and two months or so at the Forrest refuge recently.
I do the noting but not as rigorously as it seems to be outlined in MCTB which I am currently reading. I sit for 100 minutes in the morning, 90 ish minutes before dinner, and recently around thirty or so before going to bed.
I have had some very powerful a and p experiences I believe. The first meditation induced one was on a ten day retreat four years ago where I had some very powerful bliss and felt like I saw a moment of awareness or something. I had just heard that resolves can be powerful with such great concentration and so I resolved right then to wake up for all beings. I have had daily practice since then and one very very powerful a and p (maybe) on a three month where I felt insanely powerful bliss and terror mixed together and heard a voice that seemed to be from some other level of reality as it knew something that I did not know that I later verified to be true.
Since then I think I have had some powerful dark night going on. Leaving that retreat was difficult and integration took months. I sit so long because I guess I can't operate in the world if I don't. It is too uncomfortable. Sitting also brings peace at times as well. But at the least, it is an essential.
My question is, why are all of you waking up and I haven't hit a path? I'm kind of kidding there. But while my practice does seem to be deepening I can't help but feel that not too much is happening in my practice. Perhaps there is more equanimity. Which is nice, but my goals go much deeper, and while my current goal is SE, I will likely be wanting full awakening once that has happened. I think I need patience and to just keep going forward but I can certainly use some help. So the real question is, is there something more I should be doing? Should I add a concentration practice?

Thank you Nick,
It's always the same guidance. Probably because it works. I almost feel silly for posting but I guess I just need the reminders. You give very useful guidance so thank you very much.
Perhaps I just need to be more patient and continue to notice what is here.
I haven't been too straight forward with my resolves so I think that could be a good idea. The problem is, I teach yoga and make art, and if I were to truly resolve to wake up, no art gets made and it almost feels like I'm trying to push the awakening rather than letting it unfold. I could probably get away with another few hours a day of sitting but that would certainly take away from the things that make this unawakened mind feel like it has a purpose. Perhaps the resolve is to wake up as soon as is possible while still remaining useful to the world.
-Bobby

Hey there Katy, thank you for the reply,

I don't particularly like the noting I guess but I find it to be useful and I see its benefit. I recently did a ten day retreat and really experienced the path unfolding when I just gave myself to it so I think i am going to take it to stream entry. The reason I don't like it is it can sometimes feel like it blocks me from the flow of my experience but I guess I just need to soften it in these times.

I do listen to some dharma talks, mostly dharma seed stuff. I have sat with and appreciate Joseph Goldstein, Kamala Masters, and Steve Armstrong among others. I recently started to listen to Kenneth Folks talks as well.

I want to wake up because I have had powerful experiences that there is something more going on here and I have felt a great drive to wake up to it to share it with the world. This is probably mixed in with the belief that it will end some of this discomfort of being. It just seems like the thing to do. It's like, why we are here.

I started practicing because I got sober in 2008, which means no more LSD, which meant it was time to wake up for real. I heard about Ram Das and was at IMS within a year for my first ten day.

I guess the desire to wake up has always been here. Perhaps there are fewer distractions now a days.

I have considered adding some concentration practice but haven't done too much with it. I did a couple weeks of it using meta as the object at the FR recently but I have never incorporated it into my daily practice. I think it would be a useful tool, maybe a necessary one if I want to get SE before my next long retreat in May of 2014.

Thank you again for all of your time.

-Bobby

So Bobby, I'll repeat something I speculate that you well know: wanting a mental release prevents it.

So the way to let "wanting" pass without it taking hold is to
a) know when it's there,
b) not resist it, not be averse to it, and
c) return the mind sincerely and with appreciation for its ability to see its own wandering and to return to the study --- noting --- again and again.

When I read your post and your reply to Nikolai, I think you may be showing the very useful heightened sincerity and focused intention of practice that is called in some buddhist schools the Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitu-kamyata-ñana). A person can practice for years, but until life events inspire a new depth of sincerity and alertness to what can be a very dull practice, there can be only good quantity of practice, but inadequate quality.

It may be presumptuous of me, but because you're now posting here, I wonder if your sincerity and motivation to practice must have recently changed and become more focused and sincere. In which case, sticking with noting practice could be very useful now. One thing I think could help is giving the mind a "home base" when there is nothing to note: like some place of the breath or some kasina. So you'd get to the point of noting, "Not breath" or "not kasina" and then just re-apply the mind to the home base. (That is basically developing first jhana; when this happens there can be a surprising joy, "whoa, this mind can really focus single-pointedly if I just do the work" and that joy/confidence can trigger second jhana very naturally).

To consider also: do you have conviction that noting is a means to the stream-entry mental release? If you have little conviction in this method, then you could switch to a known concentration method.

If you have conviction, it sounds like you understood Nikolai's own work for himself well and you may be able to get back into noting freshly, without expectation and with friendly regard for your mind attending again and again to its simple study.


Best wishes.

Dear Katy,
Thank you very much for your response.
I watched the video and did some Jhana practice for the first time last night. I think I went up to a very weak 5th or 6th (though it was so weak that perhaps i was just imagining it... but i did start to feel the awareness expand a bit) before coming back down to a fairly solid third or fourth and then opening up to all of experience with the noting. I had a feeling that all of the states could go much deeper but I was surprised to find that I could move through them fairly quickly.
I am curious about tying them into the insight practice. What is the best way to go about using it as a tool for insight. Should I keep trying to get to the fourth and then open? Should I try to develop the formless realms and strengthen the first four as well? Independently from the insight practice? Does it make sense to always start with some Jhana if the goal is insight? It seemed like the awareness of the suffering of reaching and holding was quite strong from where I opened. I have had a similar experience by using the noting but it usually takes a long time to develop... Usually it has been on retreat if I am not mistaken. This seemed like a bit of a short cut but I am wondering if there are any disadvantages to not building that equanimity with the noting practice.

As for the noting, I do believe that many have had deep insight arise with it but I have certainly questioned the method for use in my own experience. Sometimes it just feels right to let it go when the continuity and interest build, or at least soften it in some way as the word just seem to heavy. Is the other option just an open receptivity with no noting? Is that what you do? You mentioned the possibility of switching to a known concentration method, wouldn't this block the arising of path? Or are you suggesting using it and then opening a I previously outlined?

Once again, thank you very much for all of the help. the jhana practice seems like a very useful tool and the second jhana brought an incredible feeling of joy. i started laughing quite loudly upon entering second jhana. a much needed experience that makes me happy to be alive. So thank you.

Bobby

Hey again Nick,
So in your blog you mention your notes becoming more of a dat dat or hm hm as it speeds up. I am wondering if this would be useful for me. I get to a point, as I mentioned when the noting becomes too heavy. It's like the words are too big. Do you just sort of notice the sensations instead of naming them and use the dats and hms to acknowledge that they are being known?

Thank you very much for all of your time.
Peace
-Bobby

Hi Bobby,

Yes. That's what I did. Experiment.

Nick

Hi Bobby,

I have been considering replying to your last post and some questions you posed there, but this phrase stands out in a prior post of yours up-thread:
If you have found conviction in this practice and its ability to cause this first mental release called in Theravadin buddhism "sotapanna" or "stream-entry" and you've seen how the practice develops when one gives oneself to it (to borrow your language here), then I agree with you in sticking with that practice. Starting up a new practice can become a diversion.

If you do decide to move into a jhana practice, I'd be happy to provide thoughts from my experience related to the questions you raised.

Otherwise, best wishes in keeping up your sincere practice/self-study

Thank you very much Nick and Katy,

All of the guidance has been quite inspiring and useful.

Katy, as far as Jhana goes, perhaps it would be best for me to wait on developing it as you were saying. It seemed very useful when I was integrating some attempt at concentration with the insight practice, I think I moved into EQ for a few days there which felt like a huge relief... I think I have been in DN for a while now. Anyway, I have not been attempting any concentration practice recently and feel as though I have dropped back down to DN. I use the noting which builds some continuity, drop it to bring ease, lost in thought, back to sensations. Difficult emotions, doubt, frustration, vibrations etc. I sit and notice. Though I want to just use the concentration to get passed all this, maybe I need to learn to just be with it... I kind of felt like I was short circuiting with the Jhana, in fact, I ended up feeling quite depressed after my first experience of what I believed to be Jhana subsided.

I had an interview with a teacher who placed me in EQ and i also think I was there as well. He suggested I stick with vipassana for now as it has worked for others to get to SE. I was all in favor but I certainly want to pick up the concentration again now that these "difficulties" are arising. I think there's probably a lot of delusion in this mind.

Thank you for allot your time.

Peace to you

Bobby

Hi Bobby,

I think you raise an excellent point here. Often times when some practice makes the person feel good, it increases the gradient with the mind in its depressive "dark night of the soul" state, so that 'dark night' feels much worse.* I think that's normal and difficult and useful to acknowledge. Thanks for raising the point, Bobby.

I guess several of us here would urge compassion for yourself, care, exercise and healthy eating and sleep. Do you exercise?


Okay. This period was hard for me, because I didn't know how to make the "jump". It required just practicing, which in turn required that I make lots of wholesome changes to my life (exercise, diet, mental orientation) and make those changes more and more consistent, as well as letting go of "attainment" expectation.


Okay, best wishes and bye for now.


*This is also what happens in narcotic addiction and withdrawal: the depression and anxiety seem that much worse in the absence of the new found high/joy. In this progress of insight stages, this may be an explanation of why people who experience the blissful "A&P" moment then encounter "dark night" of the soul, like "[thunder follows lightening]" (I think I'm paraphrasing Daniel's analogy there in brackets). Anyway, so meditation is a training process and it's great to be aware of some of the possible growing pains, just like a marathon trainer needs to be aware of the potential for a piriformis strain and its treatment, say.

Hello Katy, thank you very much for your time,
I do yoga and a bike fairly frequently. I am a vegan so perhaps I am not getting enough nutrition, also I tried cutting my sleep down to six hours to have more time for meditation, perhaps there has been a bit much striving in this. I could probably do with less checking Facebook and more being of service to others. Other than that, I think you are right... I probably just need to let go of practicing for something to happen and just pay attention, or at least keep noticing what it feels like to do otherwise.

I am interested in the Jhana practice and will let you know when it feels like the right time to take on a formal concentration practice as it seems you have a lot of experience with it.

Have a peaceful day.

-Bobby

Oh, yeah, I've tested all kinds of ways of eating while embarking on this path of own-mind study. If you decide you want to stay with eating the way you are and are concerned about nutrition, I can say that "Garden of Life" makes an organic gluten-free vegan vanilla powdered shake that's delicious and I mean delicious (to me) -- not as compared to ground cardboard flakes with stevia, which has been my previous tare for a protein shake.

Relatedly, among the terms of this site which I love are these two principles in the DhO welcome page, that members participate in...
DhO Principles So thank you for contributing here.


Strangely hard to do, but, yes, that's it -- maybe add a bit of friendly regard/metta for oneself if one is suffering, exactly as one would treat a wounded animal: gently, kindly, patiently --- and I am taking your good advice on just paying attention now. Thank you. Best wishes.