Conversation with Bill about humanity - Discussion
Conversation with Bill about humanity
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/12/15 6:14 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/12/15 6:12 PM
Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsI am glad that you don't think that the *apex* of human potential is war etc. I agree so perhaps that can be used as a starting point.
Ok, where should we start? We both seem to agree that the current state of human beings is not the apex of human potential. My basic take on that is that survival instincts, passions, and feelings are what stand between us and that potential. Also I say that it is possible to eliminate these things within this life and to live in complete uncomprimising freedom and peace (no suffering at all). Further my take is that most of what is practiced here (the DhO) is leading people to a condition that is less connected with said instincts, passions and feelings. That disconnection constitutes an additional hindrance to the achievement of the apex of human potential[1]. Intimate connection to those feelings is required (recognizing them as being 'me') as without unity with feelings the best[2] that can be achieved is sublimation or repression of them.
[1] which is apparently not a big problem for people, as they have no interest in the elimination of those instincts feelings and passions
[2] meaning the closest to the peace-bestowing elimination of feelings
The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ, modified 9 Years ago at 6/12/15 9:30 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/12/15 6:28 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 16 Join Date: 6/12/15 Recent PostsBill F, modified 9 Years ago at 6/12/15 6:45 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/12/15 6:45 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 556 Join Date: 11/17/13 Recent PostsThank you for writing all that out. I think this has the potential to be interesting for both of us. Perhaps if we respond to one question at a time we can actually work with these ideas in depth, and gain some knowledge.
I believe the final question you had asked, and the one that seemed most relevant was something along the lines of what I hope to get out of practice?
I practice within a tantric lineage. Some of it may be familiar ideas, but it's approach to emotions is obviously very different than what you're proposing, and is quite different from the traditional Theravdan views of many on this forum. I wrote about that at some length in the other thread. As for goals I do not think about that in terms of my practice anymore. I did heavily and often for a long time until it became obvious to me that my preoccupation was obscuring the freedom inherent in reality outside of interpretive thought loops about that reality. If I have any goal it is just the reminder to be present as much possible for experience without defensiveness. I believe that defensiveness creates the personality structure that is always siphoning (sp.?) reality through counterpdroductive thought loops that lead to suffering. The experience of life outside of this virtual reality is the experience of being in an arena of entirely open space, and total vividness. Each aspect of reality seems remarkable, profound, and liberated in its immediacy. This includes the immediacy of emotions, which become not thought loops we own, but vivid movement in open space. If life is contintually moving towards that I guess that is a goal of sorts, and it does become more my reality the longer I practice.
It seemed to me you were at least in part critiquing Not Tao because his practice was avoidant or escapist and trying to get away from 'being human.' I see the history of 'being human' as a history of violence, so I don't agree that avoidance or escapism is always bad.
O.K. So you see your practice as being a movement away from violence. My question rests on the assumption that you are defining violence as physical violence, but if not you can fill that in in your answer:
Has your life had that much violence in it that this was the motivating force for taking up AF? If not, and the violence you are referring to is not in your own life, but in history as a whole, wouldn't the argument be that your life is already without violence, thus negating the motive described. If you are describing violence in a different way you can fill that in here.
I may not be able to respond as frequently but continue and I will definitely respond when I have a chance.
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 3:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 3:04 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsSo you do have a goal... to be present as much as possible for experience without defensiveness. To me this is a very important point. You may have found that some ways of thinking about the goal are counterproductive but there is still a goal right?
Do emotions still come out in your actions and color your experience so as to make it either restless, dreary, melancholic, annoying or whatever? Even when they are being perceived in a very immediate, objective, calm, clear way? I found that I could make emotions really vivid and immediate when I did that kind of practice yet there were elements in suffering that seemed inherent in emotions. I was way happier when the emotions were absent and I was just totally relaxed, natural, appreciative than I was when I was focusing attention on emotions without reacting and i was clear neutral watchful. That latter way of experiencing is very unsatisfactory to me now that I really understand that the former can come about through intention and application rather than through random chance or circumstance.
Also, in the latter way of experiencing I found emotions to subtly come out in my actions. Even if just in my mannerisms and my choices about when to laugh or not... all kinds of subtle ways that could nonetheless be hurtful and lead to (silent, though eventually building) conflict.
Has your life had that much violence in it that this was the motivating force for taking up AF? If not, and the violence you are referring to is not in your own life, but in history as a whole, wouldn't the argument be that your life is already without violence, thus negating the motive described. If you are describing violence in a different way you can fill that in here.
I meant violence on physical and emotional levels. Most of the violence I have suffered and want to move away from is the emotional sort inflicted on myself by myself and the sort I have inflicted on others and later regretted.
I see a basic quality of violence that can get turned inwards or outwards in every single person I meet. I also see it reflected in the greater world around me in all the conflicts people get into. I then see people trying out all kinds of solutions to it that don't work consistently[1]. In every case the "solutions" leave the core problem untouched - the compulsion to survive leading to fear, anger, sadness compassion and all other emotions.
How to change the core? Fundamentally it comes down to the decision to sacrifice the will to survive for complete peace. In earlier stages it comes down to sacrificing my "rights" and my "dreams" and my "solutions" in exchange for feeling happy and harmless. More and more every single solution I could take to a problem seems secondary to just feeling fully happy and harmless[2].
[1] I am talking about all "solutions" at all levels (other than the core level). Personal-level "solutions" like creating a set of morals or principles for oneself... or creating various regimens of diet, exercise, study... or pursuing fame or money or whatever, or even pursuing states of consciousness in which emotions undergo a perspectival change and are no longer seen as a problem. Interpersonal "solutions" like creating trusting agreements with others, creating explicit or implicit rules for conduct. Large scale "solutions" like political reform, peace treaties, technological advances, or religions.
[2] real life example: I have had some work lately that has been giving me some anxiety. Lot's of 'solutions' come to mind about how to deal with this. I could just sit down, work really hard and be really appreciated by the people counting on me to do the work. A somewhat appealing solution that I have often used in life. Just sacrifice how I would most like to be spending my time to please a lot of people and then get to feel good about it.
Another 'solution' is to just scrape by and do the minimum and thus get to spend time leisurely. Along with this solution there is the thought that I don't owe these people anything, and that I could do fine if they stopped paying me.
Other solutions fall somewhere in this continuum. But the actualism solution is to feel happy and harmless - that's it. That is simply the entire core solution to this and every problem. I will eventually pick a 'solution' somewhere on that continuum no matter how I feel, but by feeling happy and harmless here and now I am guaranteeing a personal peace and at least making possible an interpersonal peace. The only way I can do that however is to decide that feeling happy and harmless is actually of greater importance than figuring out the "right" solution. As long as I am first and foremost searching for the "right" solution there won't be very much peace. Coming to value feeling happy and harmless over finding the "right" solution comes about from a few things in my experience:
-realizing that things like approval, affection, wealth, status don't really make you happy consistently, as such even the "rightest" of right solutions is not that valuable
-realizing that there are always arguments for many different "right" solutions
-realizing how nice it is to feel happy and harmless for yourself and those around you
Bill F, modified 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 6:40 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 6:40 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 556 Join Date: 11/17/13 Recent PostsThe title of this thread is funny (because I tend to be more small scale, and people who know me would laugh), but here we go. I assume the first question is about subjective experience so I responded to is as such.
Do emotions still come out in your actions and color your experience so as to make it either restless (No), dreary (No), melancholic (No), annoying (Yes) or whatever (Not sure)?
Even when they are being perceived in a very immediate, objective, calm, clear way?
No. I would argue that if you think you are seeing your emotions in a clear way, and yet you perceive subjective suffering you aren't seeing very clearly. While I can't know what your experience is I find it hard to reconcile what I know and have seen with an experience in which emotions are being perceived in a calm, immediate way, and yet there is restlessness and anxiety going on. The calmness would seem to cancel out the restlness and immediacy and anxiety can not co-exist if anxiety is described as the subjective perception of worry over a future harm.
I found that I could make emotions really vivid and immediate when I did that kind of practice yet there were elements in suffering that seemed inherent in emotions.
Respectfully, we are not speaking about the same thing. Another option is that you didn't stick with the practice long enough. Though some people have very strong reactions to the idea that things change perceptually along the way (I'm looking at you Nikolai), and for some of us more than others, my experience would corroborate this. I am not saying here "I am more advanced than you". I do not know know enough of your story. I am only asserting that if one sticks with a practice long enough it tends to reveal more with time. Many have given up on actualism but I'd be willing to bet you discovered more results the longer you stayed with it.
Let's talk about this through the lens of our own experience, using descriptors of exactly what we are experiencing now: So, for instance, I'm sitting here coffee at my side, Deadwood is on the tv, the dog is sleeping. If I look for the emotional content of the current experience I am aware of a minor sense of physical tightness in the body. Reflecting the experience of emotions as I am referring to them there is neither the perception of inside, or outside, I can see my fingers typing on the keyboard, there is not a perception of defined interior or exterior space but if pressed I'd say that space appears infinite. When I think about something I have to do in a few hours I feel the attention narowing, and immediately widen leaving only spaciousness. In it's arising the thought does not seem a separate entity removed from experience, but is experienced as empty (meaning without separate existence/indepence) fabric as much a part of the field of experience as the fingers I see typing.
I find no dominant emotional content so I cognitively attempt to bring up something for which I know before I would have had an overhwleming feeling. If I try to dredge up an emotional feeling by recalling an event from childhood I can feel a shift in experience. There is what I would call a feeling of sadness at the center of the chest. It feels full, nourished, rich, and subtly pleasant. There is no sense of its wrongness. There is no push/pull in relation to it, and it the phsyical sensation gently begins to open and spread leaving a sense of pulsing open space at the center of the chest. Nowhere in the experience is there suffering, or any desire to leave the experience, or any sense that here I am, in this experience, receiving this experience, and hence, suffering from it.
I have many questions, but I had said one at a time, so here goes: What in your experience was inherently suffering or painful in an emotion?
Nikolai , modified 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 8:06 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 8:01 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent PostsAdam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 9:04 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 9:04 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsWell, I guess it would be some of the very things you mentioned. Narrowing of attention and physical tightness. Also, what about times when there is more pressure on you, like work deadlines or relationship troubles? Don't you experience an increase in those two phenomena?
Actualism is about the complete and total absence of those things.... complete and total in all circumstances. For me it is better for them to be absent than for them to be still existant but perceived within an immense spacious awareness without inside/outside and without identification.
It is just like... the best... for them to not be there. Can't you relate to that? Then you don't have to practice anything or non-react to anything... nor suppress anything nor endure anything. Just complete relaxation and peace, uncomprimising. In every situation total unbridled comfort, satisfaction, and ease. I don't know how better to describe the absence of emotion (or at least the replacement of 'normal' feelings with happ/harmless feelings). It comes about simply from wholehearted consent to enjoy the moment without reservation come what may.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 10:04 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 10:04 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsWell, I guess it would be some of the very things you mentioned. Narrowing of attention and physical tightness. Also, what about times when there is more pressure on you, like work deadlines or relationship troubles? Don't you experience an increase in those two phenomena?
I don't know how better to describe the absence of emotion (or at least the replacement of 'normal' feelings with happ/harmless feelings). It comes about simply from wholehearted consent to enjoy the moment without reservation come what may.
-Eva
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 1:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 1:00 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsHave experienced both to compare? (I don't know you enough to know the answer)
Not as I have heard about it. It seems to be more about the inadequate peace (of course they don't quite say that, instead they say it is the best that is possible in this life, though it is incomplete) that comes about when you distance yourself from your emotions and see them as non-personal. It seems to be about pasting a veneer of perception that 'all is well' on top of the deeply held intuitions that all is not well.
[1]what the most essential part of them is aiming for
Doughnut (Supreme Arbiter of Peace and Concord) Glazer, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 12:30 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 12:11 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 5 Join Date: 6/13/15 Recent PostsActualism is about the complete and total absence of those things.... complete and total in all circumstances. For me it is better for them to be absent than for them to be still existant but perceived within an immense spacious awareness without inside/outside and without identification.
It is just like... the best... for them to not be there. Can't you relate to that?.
Are you talking about the absence of a burden? If so I can see where you are going with that, Richard calls it extinction.
I've read all of both yours' and Bill's posts in this thread, and for some reason am absolutely convinced of each post's content, even though what you both are aiming at may be mutually exclusive.
Richard makes many subtle points, his point is the complete and utter absence of the identity, and thus the presence of complete innocence (absolute harmlessness, and consequently, absolute happiness). For Richard, happiness and harmlessness are inextricably linked, if you are harmful you involuntarily send waves into the network of vibes that pound on and impress upon other people your malice. This is specifically what Richard defines as being harmful, Richard himself acquiesces to the necessity of physical violence.
The breakthrough into actual freedom that Richard describes is the necessary consequence of the complete and unprecedented globalization (population density), of humanity, as well as the necessity of cooperation (altruism) for survival. What Richard recommends is good, it's essentially altruistic self-immolation (extinction, oblivion), such that one is no longer a bother (or a harm/danger) to oneself or others.
It is thus the ultimate act of benevolence, nothing tops it, there's also no going back.
The reason many here may have a problem understanding Richard's ideas is because of the following ideas:
a) an altered state of consciousness obscures the identity, it hides the identity by making it valid, according to Richard no identity is valid, but according to an enlightened individual, he/she is supremely valid
b) an inability to understand experientially what an actual freedom from the human condition entails (pure intent)
The reason I am able to understand what Richard rights, not that there is anything hidden in his writing, is because I nearly spontaneously immolated (exploded) at a young age (adolescence) and entered an actual freedom from the human condition, but due to the self-preservation instinct or reflex I held out, and thus suffered a prolonged existence as an extant entity. 'Twas quite terrible by the way.
(This is apparently what happened to Richard, he failed to 'go boom', and thus had to spend 11 years working out the rest of the kinks before he finally immolated in entirety. So what could have been over in a few seconds was prolonged by a decade. He then became enlightened because without an ego to moderate the soul, the soul inflames and swallows the ego and becomes a divine/inflamed, but hypersensitive enlightened identity.
This is exactly what happened to me, because I failed to 'go boom'. Involuntarily, about 4 years later, despite trying to avoid being swallowed by the immensity of the "Tāthagata" (one thus come, the one who has thus arrived, thus came, etc) entered an altered state of consciousness wherein I believed I was the Buddha.)
Anyways, I understand what Richard speaks of (altruism), because I came so close to the final condition itself.
What Richard did was in fact special, and thus a leap for humanity, but the point is, due to the circumstances—abundance of resources, population density, necessity of cooperation, technology, medicine, intelligence of the human species—that this type of leap was going to be made sooner or later.
From the early 1900s to today (June 2015), the population more than tripled. (In 1900 the approximate world population was around 1.6 billion, today, June 2015, we have around 7 billion)
This is completely, entirely, and utterly unprecedented.
The way human beings live now:
Shelter, housing, bedding, temperature control (heating, air conditioning)
Clothing, for all environments
Food, restaurants, super markets
Education, the Internet, universities, public libraries
Entertainment, movies, online games, smart phones, books
Computing power, personal computers, iPads, etc.
Sex and dating, contraception (the ability to have more than one sexual partner throughout one's lifetime, because pregnancy has been negated)
Human rights, equality, etc.
Medicine, negating many bacterial diseases
Transportation, cars, airplanes
Communication, phones, email, postal service, the Internet
Utilities, running water, electricity
Safety, government, police
This way of living, has never been the case for 99% of recorded history (I'm taking only the last 50 years, since recorded history goes back about 5000 years, this means that we have been living the way we have for 1% of recorded history, or 4950/5000, but then again I'm only using this point as hyperbole).
In other words, a life lived, for the sake of living, and not for the sake of:
Survival and reproduction.
Is now entirely possible.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 2:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 2:16 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsRichard makes many subtle points, his point is the complete and utter absence of the identity, and thus the presence of complete innocence (absolute harmlessness, and consequently, absolute happiness). For Richard, happiness and harmlessness are inextricably linked, if you are harmful you involuntarily send waves into the network of vibes that pound on and impress upon other people your malice. This is specifically what Richard defines as being harmful, Richard himself acquiesces to the necessity of physical violence.
a) an altered state of consciousness obscures the identity,
it hides the identity by making it valid, according to Richard no identity is valid, but according to an enlightened individual, he/she is supremely valid
b) an inability to understand experientially what an actual freedom from the human condition entails (pure intent)
-Eva
Doughnut (Supreme Arbiter of Peace and Concord) Glazer, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 3:48 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 3:48 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 5 Join Date: 6/13/15 Recent PostsJust for the record I'm not an actualist, my views most closely match the Buddhism found in the Pali Canon, but this gets tricky because once someone sees the Dharma, and thus the Buddha, they become independent of others in the dispensation, meaning they don't rely on a teacher. So it's difficult for me to point out to others what exactly it is I see, other than that:
Even these great sal trees, Mahānāma, if they could understand what is well spoken and what is
ill spoken, I would declare them to be streamwinners, no longer bound to the lower world, of fixed
destiny, sure of awakening! ― Sarakani Sutta (trans. by Piya Tan)
dhammaṃ passati so maṃ passati; yo maṃ passati so dhammaṃ passati ― Vakkali Sutta
So it would be inaccurate to say that I'm a dogmatist, implying that I adhere rigidly to what is in the Canon, rather, I am able see (know, etc. ñāna, dassana, knowledge and vision) and thus can tell, independently.
Here's a good example:
Say someone rigidly adheres to the rules found in a math textbook, and then eventually is able to understand all the principles of mathematics and thus can derive them himself (in this case the four noble truths, cattāri ariyasaccāni, you'll have to excuse my using all these fancy characters, I only recently started typing them because they look so much cooler!), he no longer needs the textbook, but can now independently verify that what is inside the textbook is accurate.
Others who follow the textbook will achieve the same results, but those who do not understand the reason (see), why it works, will never achieve independence (stream-entry). Those who are able to verify its accuracy, do not rely on what they are verifying, but are able to know its accuracy.
So technically, those who follow the rules (steps, methods, instructions) of the textbook, will achieve fledgling (as in not 100% consistent) results because the textbook cannot account for all situations, only the principle can, but the instructions (Dharma), are derived from the principle itself.
This is why the Buddha states that its impossible for someone to end suffering if they cannot discern the four noble truths. (Vala Sutta)
This is why the arguments here surrounding the Dharma and dogmatism are somewhat amusing, it's not necessarily that there are people who rigidly adhere to only what is in the Pali Canon (word for word), rather it's more like they are able to (independently), verify the truth of the Canon, without relying on it.
This is correct, that's why Richard consistently states that it's "selfish to stay". (He says that in a DVD preview on the Actual Freedom Trust website)
Yes he comes across as very belligerent and dense (thick, dull, etc.)
This is primarily because he constantly tries to use dictionaries as the arbiter of what a word means, as opposed to using common sense and context clues, which is what most people do automatically.
This is partly due to his belief that only facts exist (see his notions of truth, etc), consequently he has to establish the facticity of each word before he can use it. He literally cannot think for himself, and instead has to use a dictionary.
We are getting into identity view now and I don't want to create confusion, so I won't comment.
Plus I'm more or less unable to explain or help other people understand identity view anyways, only a Tathagata can do that (or a tathagata-savaka), etc.
Yes… that's exactly what he is saying…
This is implying that I don't understand nondualism, and is thus a loaded statement (there is an implicit assumption within the statement).
Nevertheless, I will respond to you.
Nondualism is actually something I experience(d), and I have been in a state of abiding nonduality for a while now, but I don't believe that nondual experiences imply anything, in other words they don't mean anything.
The experience itself is authentic and true, subjectively speaking. But what the experience entails is hard to tease out, if anything.
For example I could experience xxx (let's say flying around a city, let's say I a deep and convincing experience of flying around a city, like a vision etc), this does not mean (necessarily), that I was flying around the city.
Once again I'm really unable to tease out and explain these things, I lack explanatory power, only a Tathagata can do that, etc.
I would refer you to the Brahmajala Sutta, it shows several examples of recluses who have profound meditative experiences, but extrapolate incorrectly from those experiences what they entail or what they mean, if anything
Peace.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 8:32 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 8:32 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsThis is correct, that's why Richard consistently states that it's "selfish to stay". (He says that in a DVD preview on the Actual Freedom Trust website)
Yes he comes across as very belligerent and dense (thick, dull, etc.)
This is primarily because he constantly tries to use dictionaries as the arbiter of what a word means, as opposed to using common sense and context clues, which is what most people do automatically.
This is implying that I don't understand nondualism, and is thus a loaded statement (there is an implicit assumption within the statement).
-Eva
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 1:34 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 1:31 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsI don't really know what you mean by a "yeah, but" response.
I said that what is inherently suffering in emotion are the some of the things you yourself observed... the tightness and narrowing. When I said 'other things you mentioned' I was referring to the things which did not pertain to the question of "what is inherently suffering about emotion?" I think you misunderstood my answer.
C'mon bruh. This just sounds like advertisement. As above, you only believe this to be true. It's not your experience, which you acknowledge downstream.
No I don't only believe that to be true. I have experienced that complete relaxation and peace. The part that I acknowledged not to be my experience was the permanent, ongoing part. What I said earlier to eva was: "I have experienced the former (complete and total absence), but I don't yet experience it in all circumstances."
It is interesting that you have compared that description to an advertisement and even nirvana/heaven. But you also say your interest wanes when I talk about it... and apparently that is because it is too zealous of an ideal. This lends support to my observation that the main issue people run into in the pursuit of happiness is an unwillingness to set their standards to the highest level that they go.
Why does complete absence of emotion seem like an advertisement/heaven/nirvana if there is nothing inherently suffering about emotion?
p.s. I am skipping over some of what you said intentionally because i think it would be more efficient to sort out the above first.
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 3:54 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 2:42 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsWhen I was referring to physical tightness and narrowing of attention I was referring to emotional experiences in general. I did not say that the worst thing that I experience is a "split second" of narrowing of attention but narrowing of attention in general. Sometimes it is hours of narrowed attention and physical tightness and that is much worse than a split second. My point is that emotions are the most unpleasant part of my experience of being alive, and I have had more success at making my experience better through feeling happy/harmless than through changing the way I perceive those unpleasant emotions.
What I was basically questioning is whether you are actually ok with the phenomena of physical tightening and attention narrowing.
Bill you seem to be assuming I am putting my own baseline experience forward as a way of experiencing that has less stress than yours. I really am not... I experience plenty of anxiety and stress and my purpose of this whole conversation was to discuss what is a complete solution to those difficulties.
Maybe you are saying that we can't discuss what I see as the complete solution to those problems until I have achieved it as my ongoing experience? I am ok to wait until then... not sure when it will happen though. You suggested you were interested in my experiences and I am giving them to you while admitting they are not what I eventually want them to be. Perhaps what you are really interested in is talking to someone who is actually free?
p.s. I think you are correct that I have been insincere in this conversation. Mostly through projecting more confidence than I actually have. To some degree I have been trying to communicate what is written on the actual freedom site, but I have also been passing it off as my own thoughts and experiences more than it actually is.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 4:14 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 4:14 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsIt's not the absence of emotion, it's the language you used, the notion of promotion through comparison ("the best") and the longed for future potential that will fill in the unmet needs of one's current state (ruminating about the approval of others and work projects). While you may have experienced this in certain moments/hours your idea of it as seamless experience is what makes it a belief.
But all of that is really besides what I see as the main issue. When you tell me that "physical tightness" and a split second narrowing of attention are the worst things you deal with (when these are occuring in my experience without attendant psychological content), and then you talk about being stressed about the approval of people at work and ruminating anxiously on work projects, I know that integrity and honesty have gone out of the conversation.
I know Eva would like me to be more diplomatic, and I respect her, but I see some things that don't line up and I'm going to bring that up. If you would like to continue it's only going to be useful if we can talk about our experience. Otherwise it's just my holy books against yours.
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 10:28 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 10:28 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsIf you call incorrectly often, I think it dilutes others' perception of your own integrity. (not to mention that it's also mean!)
Yes very much to all this! Thank you. And being mean is definitely not good, or my intention. If I hurt your feelings, and it was in a way I could have acted more appropriately, I apologize.
-Eva
Bill F, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 8:26 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 8:12 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 556 Join Date: 11/17/13 Recent PostsYikes. Interesting. I think I've tried to be very direct in my criticism as I imagine that's the best way to get a direct response, and much of it is theatrical and provocation to some extent. But I imagine if you see it that way, others have felt that way as well. I will delete any potentially inflammatory comments I have posted on this website (I'm off work today so I have the time).
Edit: After a few minutes it occurs that this is too big of a project, at least for today, and I stop. If some remarks were left I am not saying that I don't see them as inflammatory.
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 11:00 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 11:00 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsPersonally, I don't think it is really that bad to be harsh. For me the thought occurs that if I am affected by what people say why am I nursing and maintaining those feelings? I was somewhat affected by the conversation but looking back on the experience it was not really harmful in the long run as it allowed me to get a look at my feelings of pride. For me you have total permission to be harsh if you so desire. That said if your harshness happened to be absurd or irrelevant (it wasn't) I probably would end up not responding or just not taking it at all seriously.
I like directness over softness... I often shoot for that in my life and fall short, tending to please people instead of being honest.
Bill F, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 11:42 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 11:42 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 556 Join Date: 11/17/13 Recent PostsWhile I understand this and feel the same way I guess the problem becomes that not everyone is there. This is the way I was taught by those that have been of the most benefit but I guess the danger is generalizing one's preferred method of learning, which we all do to some extent.
I was somewhat affected by the conversation but looking back on the experience it was not really harmful in the long run as it allowed me to get a look at my feelings of pride. For me you have total permission to be harsh if you so desire. That said if your harshness happened to be absurd or irrelevant (it wasn't) I probably would end up not responding or just not taking it at all seriously.
I like directness over softness... I often shoot for that in my life and fall short, tending to please people instead of being honest.
Yes, most of these conflicts generally end with people saying they gained something, and I gain something as well. I did not include it (because I was too caught up in my criticism) but some of the stuff you wrote was really dope, and I've been incorporating it over the last couple days, in a way that is beneficial, so thank you.
The problem is directness in real life (which is my traditional communication style) can be coupled with tone of voice, or a smile, or body language that implies a less agressive stance than may be perceived if one is simply reading the words of another. And I don't yet know how to skillfully navigate those waters (direct/criticial/kind) on a message board where people can't see my face or hear my voice to understand my internal experience.
The other issue is for all those people who say they gained something, or who, like you or me, find a direct style beneficial, there are probably just some people who aren't ready for that, and just get their feelings hurt and it's not an experience they are able to incoporate in a way that benefits them. I have no way of knowing about these people because they simply retreat. Whatever I might have to add of value does not currently seem worth the risk of someone feeling devalued as a person, which is the opposite of anything I've ever intended, so to that end I am withdrawing my participation on this message board for the time being. If anyone wants to find me I'll be at the Actual Freedom yahoo forum.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 2:12 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 2:12 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsI like directness over softness... I often shoot for that in my life and fall short, tending to please people instead of being honest.
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 1:39 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 1:39 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsEdit: After a few minutes it occurs that this is too big of a project, at least for today, and I stop. If some remarks were left I am not saying that I don't see them as inflammatory.
I would not suggest that personally. What was said was already read and processed by others and there are 2 sides to every coin, I would guess they learned things from what you told them, although maybe not always the things they thought they wanted to learn in that moment, and I actually do respect directness, believe me. I respect it a lot. But I think you could probably accomplish a lot more good with that same time moving forward instead of rewriting the past. I have said tons and tons of things in the past that I would not say now as well, probably most of us have. And I might guess that in the future, I will say things differently then I say them now. Maybe your response here is a good example of how powerful a very direct statement can be to people, certainly your response was a lot more intense than I had expected or even than I would suggest personally. I think it was meant more along the lines of something I often have to remind myself of in that just because I know or think I know something, does not always mean it is ideal to say it out loud in every situation. Its easier for me in writing to do that less, because there is more time to consider, but in face to face, I am known to say rather direct things often and in face to face, it's a lot easier for me to sense the sometimes unintended strong impact when I do that. So I guess what I am saying is that I suspect many people are sensitive flowers more than you might suspect.
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 1:44 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 1:44 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Postshen you don't have to practice anything or non-react to anything... nor suppress anything nor endure anything. Just complete relaxation and peace, uncomprimising. In every situation total unbridled comfort, satisfaction, and ease. I don't know how better to describe the absence of emotion (or at least the replacement of 'normal' feelings with happ/harmless feelings). It comes about simply from wholehearted consent to enjoy the moment without reservation come what may.
Adam,
This is where my interest waned. I had thought we could have conversation, but this reads more like evangelical advertisement. It's a yawn for anybody who doesn't already believe as you do. On the other side of such unfulfilled zealous ideals I always imagine a great anxiety looms around the unfulfillment of the hoped for ideal, be it nirvana, actual freedom, heaven, etc. But I can respond to this, and see where we turn.
For me it is better for them to be absent than for them to be still existant but perceived within an immense spacious awareness without inside/outside and without identification.
This is where it really becomes even more clear we are not in the same place. It is not that emotions are happening within an awareness that must be cultivated, or is always there. For this to be true, or for someone to write this, there must be the perception, subtle or explicit, of perceiver receiving, creating phenomenon, practices to do, a path to be walked, experiences to run from or be sheltered from. From that vantage point (which is an error in perception-no receiver, no landscape upon which experience rests, only experience) maybe actual freedom makes sense, to save the receiver and the other receivers from the pain of impending internal or external forces. Eventually what happens is you realize even the you that realizes is an entire experience without backdrop. You either understand this, and it's implications, and can follow what I am saying. Or you don't.
One cannot deny duality, since it is the principle of life. Certainly, a false duality that is the product of a given individual’s mind should be destroyed. I repeat and insist: duality, to the extent that it is a duplicate of reality, a dreamlike and personally fabricated duality, must be ruthlessly destroyed. But when this veil, in the center of which we habitually evolve, is consumed, when this enormous subjective bubble bursts, what is then left? What will you see once you’re outside the bubble? The world, plainly and simply. There is something! There is me and the tree. Duality exists.
GF: Duality remains in a different fashion.
SJ: Exactly.
GF: If I follow you, there is a duality in itself real, which you qualify as healthy . . .
SJ: Healthy, simple, and divine!
GF: As well as an unhealthy, unreal duality that is merely the product of our subjectivity.
It is just like... the best... for them to not be there. Just complete relaxation and peace, uncomprimising. In every situation total unbridled comfort, satisfaction, and ease. I don't know how better to describe the absence of emotion (or at least the replacement of 'normal' feelings with happ/harmless feelings). It comes about simply from wholehearted consent to enjoy the moment without reservation come what may.
C'mon bruh. This just sounds like advertisement.
As above, you only believe this to be true. It's not your experience, which you acknowledge downstream.
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 5:11 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 5:11 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsRegarding the Jourdain quote, I've read it twice, and I'm really not sure. Perhaps he was in a much different place and is seeing way more than I currently see. Don't know.
Not sure what you are saying here, are you saying those activities now seems irrelevent/noncausal/unimportant now?
No. Those may be fall outs, but there is no hidden implication in what I said. The implications result in the way experience unfolds after. I mean exactly what I wrote. It is the whole thing.
Isn't this how I often hear nondualism described? The emotions are seen there but you are apart from them. In my way of thinking, you are not getting sucked into the story, just observing the story from a clear perspective, an experience that from my perspective is peaceful.
That's not what I'm describing, nor my experience. There is no apparatus that pulls back to look at phenomena. That's what dissapeared. If for instance I try (as I did a moment ago) to enter into an experience where I can stand apart from phenomena and observe the sensations of my hand, it simply does nothing, it doesn't lift, no watcher.
That being said I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're talking about. I just think if you continue practicing it may fall apart at some point.
Plus I agree there is that thing where, and this is hard to describe, a division in perception and perceived is gone that once was there. Perceptoin seems more immediate and direct as if a space that was inbetween is gone so the two are sort of closer or faster or more direct or something kind of like that. Not sure I can line that up clearly with the whole watcher/seer/backdrop terminology though, but I have not spent much time studying that terminology either. When I started this long ago, I started it with the angle of just more of a psychology repair process, analyzing and fixing thought processes that were not useful or productive, learning to feel better, etc, just basic psychology IMO. When they describe Actualism, it's actually a lot like the process I was using and that process did a lot for me and worked for a long time in ways that might be considered expected. I did not have any special belief systems about it though other than in my mind, I was trying various tactics to fix my baloney and enjoy life more, kind of typical goals for many. I also did have an interest in the esoteric but no specially strong belief systems about it.
In recent years, my belief systems have spun away from what the current stated belief systems of Actualism are, but for the basic method itself, I still use it daily and it still seems to carry me forward, a kind of inward analysis and acknowledging of thought processes throughout the day. Once my goal was to no longer feel pain and suffering, I think that is a basic conscious goal of most people, and I followed that conscious goal for a long long time. But towards the end, I started to understand that pain and suffering taught me much that I would not have learned otherwise and I started to see the beauty of both sides of what I think are the same coin, and that joy can't exist in this world without suffering and that the suffering is not that different from beauty, once you come from that perspective, then you can be happy about even a bad thing, knowing that its job is an important one, a perspective I could have never understood previously. That's why people don't sit and watch a 2 hour long movie about people sitting on clouds strumming harps, because it would be boring. If people TRULY want happiness so much, why do they watch movies and TV full of stress, violence, sadness, tension, mishaps, misunderstandings, etc? People consciously say one thing but their actions say another. Understanding why that is I think can be an interesting path and one that I am still walking on.
If the nondualism thing becomes more stable for me, maybe I'll have more understanding of the rest of the explanations of it, right now as of recently the strongest thing about it besides the refreshing lack of unneeded mental chatter is a very strong sense of how all kinds of things are connected to eachother thoughts, events, etc. A bunch of things seem so obviously easy to see when I'm in that mode compared to normal so I am not sure where that will go either. But meanwhile, I often wonder how much similarity there is between nondualist experiences, could they be very different with only a few similarities? I also do wonder if the Actualist method will take people exactly where the Actualist belief system says it will or if maybe it will take them to an even more interesting place! Are there Actualists that have made it to pure no emotion full time all the time that can be a good case study? Certainly there are people who have said that Actualism has helped them, and I have not heard any cases where it seemed to have hurt anyone, so for that alone, it would seem to be interesting.
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 9:37 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/13/15 9:37 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsOk, where should we start? We both seem to agree that the current state of human beings is not the apex of human potential. My basic take on that is that survival instincts, passions, and feelings are what stand between us and that potential. Also I say that it is possible to eliminate these things within this life and to live in complete uncomprimising freedom and peace (no suffering at all). Further my take is that most of what is practiced here (the DhO) is leading people to a condition that is less connected with said instincts, passions and feelings. That disconnection constitutes an additional hindrance to the achievement of the apex of human potential[1]. Intimate connection to those feelings is required (recognizing them as being 'me') as without unity with feelings the best[2] that can be achieved is sublimation or repression of them.
[1] which is apparently not a big problem for people, as they have no interest in the elimination of those instincts feelings and passions
[2] meaning the closest to the peace-bestowing elimination of feelings
I do think the whole 'not me' thing is confusing especially because I have not seen a good definition of what exactly that is supposed to mean. Or should I say, I have seen lots of definitions with not much agreement and most not very understandable. And does seem to run contrary to self inquiry, why bother to inquire in self if there is no self? Could be I just don't have enough understanding and experience with common Buddhist teachings in that area but still you'd think I'd have seen more explanation of it by now that I could understand.
I also think people here often lose the forest through the trees sometimes with so much concern on which technique will the the most efficient ticket to enlightenment because with any technique, it's you doing it and the technique relies on you. IMO, a technique only has as much power as you give it anyway, and rapidity of change relies on how fast a person is willing to let go of the old ways, how much one is actually will to really change, not so much on which tiny variation of which method is chosen. People want to change for the better yet are reluctant to stop with all the habits they currently have, and that is why change is often slow, IMO, I'd like to see more emphasis on those issues and less on the tiny details, it's like if you were trying to build a tower bbut spent most of your time arguing over which kind of flower is best to plant in front of it..
-Eva
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 12:47 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 12:40 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsOk
Ok, but the water is poisoned. Or acidic or something. You can't even touch it without being at least somewhat burned. I don't appreciate it's nice percolation because I know what it is like when it is absent, and it is so much better.
I think that is very important for your other assumptions in your post. My goal is not the brook and so the issue is not one of us calling the goal a brook and the other calling it a lack of flood. My goal is the absence of all the 'water.'
Are you saying that I am losing the forest for the trees?
What exactly is the 'forest' if the goal and the direction of travel are the 'trees'? It is probably worth noting that my goal is not enlightenment.
Yes, this applies to the various ways and directions in which a person can change. What matters most is what you want to change into and how badly you want it. Those two things determine your direction and speed. People may pick different directions if they are simply unwilling to cross certain obstacles.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 2:41 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 2:41 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsFor some of the rest, the concepts behind the actions of many Buddhists and the concepts behind what the Actualists attempt to do, I agree sound different in multiple places. Not sure if either the Buddhists or the Actualists really understand the whole thing through though, in fact I think no one does.
Are you saying that I am losing the forest for the trees?
-Eva
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 12:58 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 12:58 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsIt depends how you define caring. Is caring action or is caring a feeling, urge, or compulsion? Do those things have to go together? I say no. Actualism is not about being free of action, there is no need to be free of action to be free of suffering. But there is a need to be free of urge, compulsion, and feeling. Since you referenced Richard, here is he describes the difference (he is not agitated):
I correct – and thus improve – what can be corrected ... according to a preference for creature comforts and ease of life-style. For example: if I can sit upon a cushion instead of the brick pavers of the patio I will ... that is a preference. But if a cushion is not available it does not matter ... I thoroughly enjoy being alive at this moment in eternal time and this place in infinite space irregardless of what is happening. I could be just as happy and harmless on bread and water in solitary confinement in some insalubrious penitentiary ... but I would be pretty silly to act or behave in such a way as to occasion that outcome!
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 7:27 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 7:21 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts]complete peace. feeling happy and harmless, some anxiety, somewhat appealing ,
But the actualism solution is to feel happy and harmless - that's it. That is simply the entire core solution to this and every problem
Those are all emotions, including the actualism solution. Kind of an non-goal , to feel happy and harmless, yet emotionless. Happiness is an emotion. That is just nonsense, sorry it is either illogical, spiritual bypassing, denial or delusion. It can not be true, to be happy and emotionless, unless being happy is not an emotion?
http://actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/delight.htm
It is more like arguing over material a tower should be made out of so that it will actually stand.
And so castles made of sand, fall in the sea, eventually. Jimi Hendrix
Mostly I am just posting to point out that AF seems to fall short , since it seems to stop at the clinging to Pleasant emotional states. Reveling in the delight, amazement , and wonder of the sensuous experience. While this is nice, and perhaps even beneficial to train oneself in this fashion. To call up wholesome states, or PCE, at will is indeed a most beneficial skill to be developed and has great benefit in the purification of the mind. But, by no means would this be the end game.
This link here sounds more in line with liberation,
http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/articles/aprecisofactualfreedom.htm
Psi
But, from what I have studied, this has been often repeated, i.e. Not new under the Sunshine.
Edit, so which is it? Is it that my little brain has little understanding of AF, or is AF transmitting two different and somewhat conflicting views?
Is there Emotions, or not? There is no Me, but there is a Me flesh and blood body... I think most people in and out of AF find confusion there. But, maybe they would not admit it.
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 11:55 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/14/15 11:55 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Postshttp://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-happy.htm
No clinging to pleasant feelings is eliminated by the actualism process... see the following:
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-sex.htm
Is there Emotions, or not?
There is no Me, but there is a Me flesh and blood body...
Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 4:27 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 4:27 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent PostsI think the main disagreement is whether painful emotions really feel bad or not. This might actually be a deeper rabbit hole than it seems on both sides and worth exploring. For example, Bill, if you really can experience anxiety, fear, sadness, anger, grief, etc without suffering, it would be worthwhile to try to convey how that's actually possible to someone who doesn't think it is. Adam, you are probably in a better position to debate Bill on this than I am since we have a negative history.
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 1:53 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 1:53 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsI think the main disagreement is whether painful emotions really feel bad or not. This might actually be a deeper rabbit hole than it seems on both sides and worth exploring. For example, Bill, if you really can experience anxiety, fear, sadness, anger, grief, etc without suffering, it would be worthwhile to try to convey how that's actually possible to someone who doesn't think it is. Adam, you are probably in a better position to debate Bill on this than I am since we have a negative history.
Yes, I think that issue plus also, which experiences should be defined as 'emotions' and which not. But for the suffering without suffering, I would say that nondualism is how you can experience those things but yet not suffer. People have been trying to describe nondualism for thousands of years to those who have not experienced it and success has been limited. And I am not saying this thing I am about to say does describe it exactly either. But as an example, suppose you watched on youtube, a video of a cute little angry kitty, smacking it's angry paws on the face of a bewildered big old goofy dog, such a video is often enjoyed by many a viewer including me. From your perspective, you see the immature spoiled kitty was angry about nothing important, the dog lived to tell the tale, etc. It's cute! But to the kitty, I am sure it was no laughing matter! Interpretation is about perspective. Now suppose you were able to have both the perspective of the kitty AND the perspective of the youtube viewer at the same time, then what would you feel?
-Eva
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 7:07 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 7:07 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsEarlier you posted:
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-happy.htm
No clinging to pleasant feelings is eliminated by the actualism process... see the following:
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcorrespondence/sc-sex.htm
As reveling in wonder, delicious, etc.
:
So, this is not emotionless, just not feelings per se. This may not be clinging, yet there sure is alot of amazement and wonder left for the mundane worldy things, i.e. enchantment. I am not saying this is bad or anything, it is nice for the mind to enjoy aesthetic beauty, better than a sharp stick in the eye. But, enjoyment and wonder is an emotion.
Aesthetics is also not something new under the sun. And , indeed, marvelling at nature can lead to the dropping of the self concept.
If there are no emotions experienced, then what are these called? Delight, felicity, amazement, fun, delicious wonder, charm of life, sensuously caressing eyes. These are all emotional reactional states by definition. These are not descriptions of pleasant sensations, but rather seem to be descriptions of emotions that are a reaction to pleasant sensations.
Perhaps, what you read as my confusion is not my confusion at all,
Perhaps, I am just a mirror, upon which is reflected, what is seen in a mirror.
For an actually free person there is no experience of being an alien entity inhabiting a body, there is just the body in and of itself.
And, there is no I am this, for that again supposes an alien entity belief, which is denied earleir, yet stated again as a belief. Maybe it is a Freudian Slip, a lingering belief. Or , maybe it is just the flaws and poverties inherent in conventional language.
The mind, it seems to me anyway, does the same type of impersonal process, with mental formations.
So, I would agree, there is no alien entity inhabiting a body. Anatta.
Psi
Adam , modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 10:53 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 10:53 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent PostsOk this seems to be the essential issue here. I think you are incorrect because on the AFT site all those states are either eliminated in actual freedom (felicity, amazement) or are unconditional and continuous states that are not reaction (fun, felicity, delicious wonder, charm of life, sensuously caressing eyes).
If something is unconditional it is not reactive and thus not emotion.
Perhaps, I am just a mirror, upon which is reflected, what is seen in a mirror.
This is something I have experienced where there is basically just the sensations and no reactions to them (on an emotional level) only reactions to them on a physical level (sleeping when tired, eating when hungry, working when moneyless).
I wonder if this sort of conversation can really get anywhere... maybe we are defining our words differently and maybe we both need to have had the same experience (PCE) and to have seen it the same way for us to have a basis of discussion. I am ready to discontinue this conversation if you are to be totally honest. I just don't know if we are getting anywhere!
Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 11:49 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 11:49 AM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent PostsIf something is unconditional it is not reactive and thus not emotion.
So then felicity, fun, amazement, delicous wonder, etc. , if they are unconditional, then they are not emotions. And, they are not reactions.
Well, if it is continuous and ongoing then a a person with Actual Freedom , if they had a turd in their hands, they would have no reaction, but be in a continuous state of fun, felicity, and amazement, just the same as if they has a giant lollipop in their hands. Truly Fascinating!! Emotions, without actually having emotions !!
I pretty much agree, except that the nerve endings are aware and sensitive. You don't need an identity reacting to and interpreting sense data for there to be consciousness of sense data. As Richard says sometimes "I am these sensations" rather than how he was with an identity "I am experiencing these sensations."
This is something I have experienced where there is basically just the sensations and no reactions to them (on an emotional level) only reactions to them on a physical level (sleeping when tired, eating when hungry, working when moneyless).
I wonder if this sort of conversation can really get anywhere... maybe we are defining our words differently and maybe we both need to have had the same experience (PCE) and to have seen it the same way for us to have a basis of discussion. I am ready to discontinue this conversation if you are to be totally honest. I just don't know if we are getting anywhere!
Experience of just the sensations with no reactions to them!!! Yay!!! That is Bare Attention!! Pure Mindfulness!!! That is awesome!!! PCE!!! That is a huge step forward, but from my view there is more to be done than just that one thing.
To practice being happy and harmless.
To practice arousing and maintaining Wholesome States, and to practice Morality. Awesome!!! Two more for AF.
AF, if understood correctly does include Right Mindfulness, Right Morality, and Right Effort. I am not sure how deep AF goes into this, and how correctly it is understood internally, but there are definietly some parallels between Buddhism as a Practice and AF as a Practice, regardless of the 180 degree Meme that is thrown around out there. Oh, and the AF is different from every other thing imaginable Meme. That is just Ego Formation Baloney. Unrecognized Shadow Baloney , though it may be.
The most important thing is to keep what is Pragmatic, keep what works, keep it working and evolving, keep pioneering, and abandon all of the Tribal Instinctual Baggage that the Ego likes to attach to concepts like AF, Buddhism, and Nuddhism.
PCE out, and PCE on,
Psi
Nuddhism, just seeing if anyone was paying attention. Nuddhism is spiritual practice stripped bare of any labelling , conceptual clinging, and Dogmatism. Ooops, somebody already took the word after a quick Googling! Oh, well. Hey, no Goggling !!
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 2:27 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 2:27 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsExperience of just the sensations with no reactions to them!!! Yay!!! That is Bare Attention!! Pure Mindfulness!!! That is awesome!!! PCE!!! That is a huge step forward, but from my view there is more to be done than just that one thing.
To practice being happy and harmless.
To practice arousing and maintaining Wholesome States, and to practice Morality. Awesome!!! Two more for AF.
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 2:06 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 6/15/15 2:06 PM
RE: Conversation with Bill about humanity
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent PostsIf something is unconditional it is not reactive and thus not emotion.
This may seem to be true on the surface, but the body is not aware of anything, it is a lump of flesh and bones, nerve endings, and whatnot, which carries out its functions whether anyone is aware of them or not, in an impersonal fashion.
-Eva