Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter? - Discussion
Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/19/15 1:26 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/19/15 1:26 PM
Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts-Eva
Ian And, modified 8 Years ago at 12/19/15 5:57 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/19/15 4:52 PM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent PostsIt occurs to me that while recognizing the importance of the first, I tend to favor the second perhaps a bit overly much. Whereas I wonder if some here might tend to emphasize the first but neglect the second? Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up as potentially of interest.
You bring up a good point, Eva. One which is brought up in the discourses, for those who bother to read and to contemplate them.
The very first entry of verses (Yamakavagga: The Twin Verses) in the Dhammapada makes the very point you are emphasizing:
impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of
the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure
mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow
3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such
thoughts do not still their hatred.
4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor
such thoughts still their hatred.
5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This
is a law eternal.
6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this
settle their quarrels.
And though the tendency of our individual minds is to take things personally, to identify with the word, thought, or deed being put forth and to react, sometimes violently, our mind is often not mindful enough to recognized – "to recall," which is one of the more compelling definitions of the Pali word sati, and one which we often forget when we think of meaning in the instruction to be "mindful" – that what is being described that we are reacting to is empty of substance (even though it may have some bearing on our coexisting circumstance, providing us with some food for serious consideration with regard to the way we act in the world).
The way of reacting with dispassion with regard to that speech, thought, or deed which burns one britches is a learned skill, an acquired ability. A skill that takes the development of mindfulness and the establishment of presence of mind in order to perfect. Perhaps this is why the Dhamma is often called a "gradual path" or the "middle way." Because its success depends upon one's taking the time to learn how to change the way in which they process information.
The practice of the Dhamma includes both proficiency in the practice of meditation (for strengthening concentration and reorienting the mind) and the study of the principal teachings in a way which brings them to life within one's own personal experience. To do this takes mental discipline, which is something that each practitioner needs to work on within the framework of their practice of meditation. Yes, meditation is meant to be pleasurable and peaceful, but those are not ends in themselves. Meditation is also hard work for the mind in reorienting the position it takes in response to external stimuli. While this process of reorientaton may not occur overnight, the good news is: that it can and does occur for those with patience who take the time to work on it.
Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 2:40 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 11:59 AM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts-Eva
This is what I was trying to point to earlier on the other post when I wrote:
I do think that eventually, the mind, if one has been persistent, naturally just quiets down and comes to a state of natural stillness. I think this arises due to past efforts, basically one has worked through all the problems that can or have arisen, and there is just not much for the mind to deal with that has not been dealt with before, learned and understood for what it really is. Of course, life can throw some curve balls.
There is a third art to this, that seems to be often overlooked, that is Right Effort, from what I can tell this is also another valuable skill to learn, it is a training in the more emotional, biochemical side of the mind, or heart. Citta in Buddhism considers the Mind and Heart as one and the same, I believe. Probably based in the Brain, Nerves and Glands.
Here is a couple of excerpts from Ayya Khema, that may or may not be pertinent to this discussion, Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
When we pay attention to our feelings and do not react to them but only observe, then we're using the second foundation of mindfulness,vedananupassana (mindfulness of feeling). When we know we're thinking, it's cittanupassana (mindfulness of thought) and when we know what the content of the thought is, it's dhammanupassana (mindfulness of mind objects). If we're not paying attention, we're not really awake. We need to practice clear attention to any one of these at all times.
It is possible that in meditation the mind becomes concentrated. If there is a feeling of peacefulness, one has to know that quite clearly. Without realizing what is happening, one cannot go further, because one doesn't know where one is at.
This is an important detail of meditation, knowing exactly what's happening and being able to verbalize it after the occurrence. The verbalization is the understood experience, and occurs naturally after the experience. This holds true for any mind-state and for any feeling. The Dhamma is the Buddha's verbalized experience. Unless we can do that with our own experiences, we are left with a belief system, which can dull the mind. But meditation is to sharpen the mind.
The first effort is not to let an unwholesome thought arise which has not yet arisen. The requires sharp mindfulness. A thought which has not yet arisen creates waves ahead of it. To realize that these waves are boding no good, needs much attention and practice. The second effort, not to continue an unwholesome thought which has already arisen, can be done by anyone of good will, if it is understood that there is nobody else to blame. Unwholesome thinking is not due to outer triggers, but results strictly from our own defilements.
The third step is to make a wholesome thought arise which has not yet arisen. This means that we continually watch over our mind and encourage positive, wholesome thoughts where none are present even under the most trying circumstances.
Finally, to make a wholesome thought, which has already arisen, continue. In the meditation practice, this concerns our meditation subject. But in daily life it means our mind's reaction. If we have some sensitivity towards ourselves, we can feel that there is a disturbance within when unwholesome thinking arises, a feeling of resistance. Unwholesome thoughts have been thought of so often for so many years, that they have become part and parcel of our thinking process. It takes mindfulness and determination to let go.
In meditation we become aware that our unwholesome thoughts are not caused by someone or something external. Then we gain the power of mind to drop what we don't want, to keep and substitute with what is useful for us. These four supreme efforts are the fourth foundation of mindfulness concerned with the contents of our thoughts. If everybody in the world were practicing this, it would be a better world to live in.
Text Wall !!! Ahhhh.....
Psi
Richard Zen, modified 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 12:52 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 12:52 PM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts-Eva
I emphasized stopping the thoughts first but slowly had to let them back in. Welcoming non-preferences is what really let me deal with negative thoughts turning into a rumination.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 11:39 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 11:39 PM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts-Eva
This is what I was trying to point to earlier on the other post when I wrote:
When we pay attention to the breath in meditation and a thought intervenes, we learn to let go of the thought and come back to the breath. The same procedure is used in daily life to let go of unwholesome thoughts. We substitute at that time with a wholesome thought, just as we substitute with the breath in meditation.
The first effort is not to let an unwholesome thought arise which has not yet arisen. The requires sharp mindfulness. A thought which has not yet arisen creates waves ahead of it. To realize that these waves are boding no good, needs much attention and practice. The second effort, not to continue an unwholesome thought which has already arisen, can be done by anyone of good will, if it is understood that there is nobody else to blame. Unwholesome thinking is not due to outer triggers, but results strictly from our own defilements.
The third step is to make a wholesome thought arise which has not yet arisen. This means that we continually watch over our mind and encourage positive, wholesome thoughts where none are present even under the most trying circumstances.
Finally, to make a wholesome thought, which has already arisen, continue. In the meditation practice, this concerns our meditation subject. But in daily life it means our mind's reaction. If we have some sensitivity towards ourselves, we can feel that there is a disturbance within when unwholesome thinking arises, a feeling of resistance. Unwholesome thoughts have been thought of so often for so many years, that they have become part and parcel of our thinking process. It takes mindfulness and determination to let go.
In meditation we become aware that our unwholesome thoughts are not caused by someone or something external. Then we gain the power of mind to drop what we don't want, to keep and substitute with what is useful for us. These four supreme efforts are the fourth foundation of mindfulness concerned with the contents of our thoughts. If everybody in the world were practicing this, it would be a better world to live in.
---Yes, thank you! I didn't really have it that well organized in my mind plus it's nice to see other peoples' version of it.
Kind of puts a more practical spin on the fourth foundation of mindfulness, and what to do with what is observed as it arises, instead of just assuming it is all a purely passive process. Cuz, even the act of letting go is an action. Releasing is an action, Abandoning is an action, same as Arousing and Maintaining are actions.
---I think 'letting go' of some things has taken some of the most effort for me, I can be quite the clinger. ;-P
-Eva
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 11:42 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 11:42 PM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts-Eva
I emphasized stopping the thoughts first but slowly had to let them back in. Welcoming non-preferences is what really let me deal with negative thoughts turning into a rumination.
-Eva
Mark, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 2:54 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 2:54 AM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 554 Join Date: 7/24/14 Recent Posts-Eva
Indifference
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 11:51 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 11:51 AM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts-Eva
Indifference
-Eva
Richard Zen, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 6:48 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 6:48 PM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts-Eva
I emphasized stopping the thoughts first but slowly had to let them back in. Welcoming non-preferences is what really let me deal with negative thoughts turning into a rumination.
-Eva
Welcoming is not indifference. Welcome negative sensations (including ones related to thoughts) because welcoming is the opposite of aversion. This way when something stressful occurs that's out of your control you have less fight or flight responses to it. Welcome small irritations first and then gradually welcome more as you see fit.
Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 9:11 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 9:06 PM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts]
And interestingly, I too, have had a similar experience of which you are describing. Hard to explain, there was no body or self to be found, just as if I was shot out into space, but I do not recall having a body, nor were there any words or thinking going on at the time, just a super fast travelling outward sensation. If there was hyper space, that would be it. It was this experience that initiated my wonder about the mind, OBE's and all kinds of stuff, never could really expain what happened, hard to reproduce, I am currently not able to at will. I had thought at one time it was 5th jhana, but as it is not very reproducible, and does not match many descriptions of 5th jhana, or really OBE's , I just do not know. But yes, all of the mind stuff was indeed absent.
But, back to the mundane level, if someone asked me to take out the garbage, I could take out the garbage, but could hear that request and take out the garbage, all without any internal verbalization. Not that that is always the way I prefer to do that, but, yes it could be done with or without verbalization, it could be a choice. If the mind and body is under stress, fatique , exahaustion, surprise, etc. the mind does revert back to the older instinctual ways of reaction, kind of like slipping up, then it takes a moment or two to stabalize the mind again, usually...
Anyway, interesting. I might see if I can reproduce the state of Supermundane Whatchcallit, , if I remember correctly, I used to send the signal to activate each muscle, but with out moving the muscle, and did this through each muscle I could find starting from the toes and working up to the fontenelle spot of the head, if any tension or muscle contraction was found in area , this was released. When I got to the head I would imagine about space and the idea of infinity, and just let my mind send out, then , every once in a while, the higher pitched rushing sound of silence would start up, then the consciousness would, if I was lucky rush out and upward, felt like leaving the body, and like one has left as if soap had slipped from the hand. Usually I would get scared, and pop back quickly, it can be very frightening. But, due to the practice of Equanimity, over the last few I have been able to just remain Equanimous with the sensation. The last time it happened, I went out, really , really far, then the thought popped in ,, wow, I must be a million miles away, then I saw the tiniest pinprick of light, and then I willed to get back, I did not know if I could or not at the time, that was the inkling anyway, then whoosh I was back, and opened my eyes. Due to constant equanimity practice, even under such wild circumstances, the flight of flight response system had not been allowed to activate, a nice skill to have in these circumstances, and due to this, I was immediately able to reproduce the phenomenon for a second time right then, I did this to test if it was just a dream or not. Guess not, but who really knows?
But actually during the experience, I had indeed lost contact with all Earth Knowledge, as you described. There would definitely be no doing of any Earthly anything during this experience, whether it be breathing , thinking, knowledge of a body, nuthin'
Anyway... It is what it is, and what it is, I am kind of left with a big, Hunh???
The only things I found that are close and similar to the experience are OOBE's , 5th jhana, and the Bindu Point. Maybe here it would be called an A and P, ? Nibbana?
Bindu is beyond the senses and thoughts: It is very important to understand that the actual Bindu is far beyond the senses and thoughts in the conventional sense of thinking processes involving strings of words, images, or other such impressions. This means transcending not only the senses as operating through the physical organs, but also the inner or mental experience of sensation. For example, one not only closes the eyes, but also goes beyond all manner of inner visualization. When attention on all of the Gross and Subtle objects and processes collapses, so to speak, and thus, moves inward towards the Bindu , there is a convergence on a point, which is the finer meaning of one-pointedness of mind. There may be an extremely intense awareness of the nature of pure sound and light, but this is very different from what we experience by mental visualization or imagination. The journey to the Bindu starts to become the experience of the source of light (Jyotir Bindu / Tejo Bindu) and the sourceof sound (Nada Bindu), as well as being the source out of which other sensation, mental processes, and the instruments of mentation emerge.
Psi
P.S, Oh yeah, Ayya Khema speaks of a Stillpoint, her way of describing something, and it is from there that one can make the next step to Nibbana. Which may also be what you are describing. And, to add, there is probably a Mundane Nibbana, and a Supermundane Nibbana, just like there are levels and fractals of many phenomenon. But, I am kind of getting out of my range and depth of knowledge, considering I am still a gumshoe...
Edited for typos and clarifications
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 10:46 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 10:46 PM
RE: Is it ONLY about silencing the mental chatter?
Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts]
And interestingly, I too, have had a similar experience of which you are describing. Hard to explain, there was no body or self to be found, just as if I was shot out into space, but I do not recall having a body,
nor were there any words or thinking going on at the time, just a super fast travelling outward sensation.
If there was hyper space, that would be it. It was this experience that initiated my wonder about the mind, OBE's and all kinds of stuff, never could really expain what happened, hard to reproduce, I am currently not able to at will.
I had thought at one time it was 5th jhana, but as it is not very reproducible, and does not match many descriptions of 5th jhana, or really OBE's , I just do not know. But yes, all of the mind stuff was indeed absent.
But, back to the mundane level, if someone asked me to take out the garbage, I could take out the garbage, but could hear that request and take out the garbage, all without any internal verbalization.
Not that that is always the way I prefer to do that, but, yes it could be done with or without verbalization, it could be a choice. If the mind and body is under stress, fatique , exahaustion, surprise, etc. the mind does revert back to the older instinctual ways of reaction, kind of like slipping up, then it takes a moment or two to stabalize the mind again, usually...
Anyway, interesting. I might see if I can reproduce the state of Supermundane Whatchcallit, , if I remember correctly, I used to send the signal to activate each muscle, but with out moving the muscle, and did this through each muscle I could find starting from the toes and working up to the fontenelle spot of the head, if any tension or muscle contraction was found in area , this was released.
When I got to the head I would imagine about space and the idea of infinity, and just let my mind send out, then , every once in a while, the higher pitched rushing sound of silence would start up,
then the consciousness would, if I was lucky rush out and upward, felt like leaving the body, and like one has left as if soap had slipped from the hand. Usually I would get scared, and pop back quickly, it can be very frightening. But, due to the practice of Equanimity, over the last few I have been able to just remain Equanimous with the sensation.
The last time it happened, I went out, really , really far, then the thought popped in ,, wow, I must be a million miles away, then I saw the tiniest pinprick of light, and then I willed to get back, I did not know if I could or not at the time, that was the inkling anyway, then whoosh I was back, and opened my eyes. Due to constant equanimity practice, even under such wild circumstances, the flight of flight response system had not been allowed to activate, a nice skill to have in these circumstances, and due to this, I was immediately able to reproduce the phenomenon for a second time right then, I did this to test if it was just a dream or not. Guess not, but who really knows?
Anyway... It is what it is, and what it is, I am kind of left with a big, Hunh???
The only things I found that are close and similar to the experience are OOBE's ,