3rd or 4th insight knowledge question

Simon Liu, modified 7 Years ago at 11/25/16 10:21 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/25/16 10:21 PM

3rd or 4th insight knowledge question

Posts: 83 Join Date: 8/23/16 Recent Posts
I have had experience of bodily sensation that has fast rhythm; however, based on the description one can also experience that with visual and auditory senses. Can someone explain this?

Vision appears to be constant. Are you saying that your vision will flicker very fast? I can be driving and suddenly literally see the road and cars in front of me appear and disappear many times? 

I can hear nada sound as if it is off and on in high frequency but not the case for any other sound or high frquency sound.

Hard to imagine visual objects will appear and disappear many times within a second.

I have experience the case where my brain is scanning - there is certain thought but doesnt quite arise then moves to another thought but doesnt quite arise.

What about taste and touch?

Hard to imagine how I can sense objects like this. I can understand how bodily sensation can happen like this.

Appreciate any comments from those who are beyond the 3rd and 4th insight knowledge.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 11/26/16 12:04 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/26/16 12:04 AM

RE: 3rd or 4th insight knowledge question

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Its probably more that the objects within the field will be experienced vibrationally through a single sense door, rather than an entire sense door will vibrate (or whatever).  The sense of vibration of an entire sense door, or the field as a whole, probably can not occur the 11th nana.  

In terms of method, I spent months purposely breaking down individual visual or auditory objects into 'clicks' or 'taps.'  Eventually, this process takes on a life of its own.

When your mind begins to vipassanize automatically (through practice), the knowing of this gets deeper and deeper, until it becomes "insight."  Each insight moves along a spectrum of early immaturity to late maturity, until it begins to logically push through to the next stage of understanding (nana).  

If you have been noticing that things cause other things, or that mind moments lead into each other (2nd nana), you might begin to wonder about or directly perceive, that there is something similar about all of these changing mechanics (3rd nana).  And as you become increasingly absorbed into this understanding that all the objects and processes within the field share some common quality, you can "sync up" with this quality at a deeper level.  Pretty soon, this sync will begin to reveal its true face: everything is energy (4th nana).  

If everything is energy, then what am I?  ... which is what triggers the Dukkha nanas.  

If you are looking to diagnose a meditation state or after-effect, look at multiple factors (not just one):  
1 - What method was I using, and do I feel motivated to use now?
2 - What effects can I directly observe or sense in my perception?
3 - How are my thoughts and emotions being effected?
Simon Liu, modified 7 Years ago at 11/26/16 3:28 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/26/16 3:28 PM

RE: 3rd or 4th insight knowledge question

Posts: 83 Join Date: 8/23/16 Recent Posts
Noah D:
Its probably more that the objects within the field will be experienced vibrationally through a single sense door, rather than an entire sense door will vibrate (or whatever).  The sense of vibration of an entire sense door, or the field as a whole, probably can not occur the 11th nana.  

In terms of method, I spent months purposely breaking down individual visual or auditory objects into 'clicks' or 'taps.'  Eventually, this process takes on a life of its own.

Pretty soon, this sync will begin to reveal its true face: everything is energy (4th nana).  

Can you expound on "through a single sense door"? Understand that you are saying the entire vision does not flicker but if I were looking at a car only and my insight has matured to the advance level then I could be seeing a car flickering. This is what the descriptions in all the PDFs and online articles are referring to?

Sometimes, I can see how consciousness needs to refresh itself. I thought the A&P experience refers to consciousness being in the A&P state. Your attention span is only good for 6 conscious moments, then you have to apply mindfulness to the object again; otherwise, consciousness will be distracted to mind objects or other objects.

For a time, I was trying to interpret if the description applies to refreshing consciousness many times a second or the object is flickering many times a second.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 11/27/16 6:27 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/27/16 6:27 AM

RE: 3rd or 4th insight knowledge question

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
These are approximations based on my experience and those that I've talked to.  But yes, in general it would be more like seeing the car flickering visually, than the entire visual frame flickering, or visual + auditory flickering.

You should track your direct experience over time to get a sense of how you experience different nanas.  That's the only way to know how it works for you.  And also, deconstruct the motivation behind "figuring it out."
Simon Liu, modified 7 Years ago at 11/26/16 3:34 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/26/16 3:34 PM

RE: 3rd or 4th insight knowledge question

Posts: 83 Join Date: 8/23/16 Recent Posts
Pretty soon, this sync will begin to reveal its true face: everything is energy (4th nana).   :


Having done zhen zhuang meditation I concur that energy is the underlying foundation for our worldly objects, animated or inanimate".

Just doing anapanasati in relaxed state with hands in mudra position, I feel energy moving about in constant fluidal motion in my hands. It stops as soon as I am not in relaxed mind state and in concentration,

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