On renunciation

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S Kyle, modified 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 9:28 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 9:28 AM

On renunciation

Posts: 26 Join Date: 7/25/10 Recent Posts
There are, or have been, a few threads posted over the past few days specifically about sexuality and generally the problem of desire (some people want to get rid of it and some are worried that practicing will make romantic "love" go). I wonder if most people who are attracted to some kind of spiritual path have a love-hate relationship with the idea or possibilities of renunciation, which ultimately is either embraced or rejected along the way. (Or used to reinforce the sense of one's self as a 'failure.')

This got me thinking about what renunciation really is and what it really means, especially as I increasingly switch from meditative, or "Buddhist" practical modalities, to an actualist modality where there is absolutely no renunciate strain to negotiate whatsoever. Of course Daniel argues quite effectively against the limited behaviorial/emotional model for arhats in MCTB, but the sense that one must "give up" something to "get" arhatship persists, I think, in many Buddhists circles and/or thinking. And, anyone reading the Actual Freedom Trust website will have come across all the articles interrogating Richard about how much coffee he drinks, how many cigarettes he smokes, etc., etc., on and on, in an attempt to show that to be truly liberated, in either sense, one must eschew anything considered to be a sensual pleasure.

The other day while out on a walk I was popping very quickly in and out of PCE mode, so that the effect was kind of a fluttering in the brain... (that's the best I can do describing it...) And somewhere in that process I got the distinct feeling of the difference between the two modalities in relation to the question of "renunciation." Being in the actual world is so vastly different from being in the world of the mind, that to be consistently in PCE mode feels to me, almost literally, as if I have "left" something, left another world behind, or come into a new existence. For me, it is a feeling like when you move to another country, or another state, and you have new friends, a new job, a new house, perhaps even a new look--but much more extreme than this.

What feels like it is left behind (re: renounced) in PCE mode? Pretty much everything that used to motivate me falls away and what is left is everything that is always already available, which is staggeringly abundant. The word renunciation has a very negative connotation to it, I realize, and for that reason alone might be unappealing to some. But renouncing something, especially something that is destructive, is a good thing, actually. For example, while doing hardcore meditation, I definitely felt that I had a "goal," ultimate liberation, arhatship, etc., and this had its own texture of feeling which I won't belittle with a label, but my point is that it was affective in nature. When I was successfully meditating,I felt as if I were "making progress," as it were. However when in PCE mode, I don't have any feelings about progress whatsoever; it is its own state that it is already so glorious that a sense of satiety sets in that I've never really felt in meditation.

My understanding of attaining arhatship was always that if one wanted it, one would not get it (because of the mechanism of desire, despite the confusion that caused with the application of the idea of 'right effort,' but I digress)--so in some ways the actualism methods feels much more to me like what I thought arhatship was and I wonder, often, if it doesn't offer what people want most after all? And, as a literary critic, I am unable to resist the temptation to re-contextualize and analyze traditional Buddhist teaching and wonder if the blunt aspects of renunciation--the homeless life, if you will--wasn't the crudest form of a operational switch that is not behaviorial but is about how the brain works, so that all attempts to transform one's world (what needs transforming? if you can really *see* it, it becomes clear that it is already perfect), which is the cause of so much suffering, becomes a distant, primitive memory. Perhaps this is the ultimate renunciation, not a life of homelessness, but a life of harmlessness?
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 11:20 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 11:20 AM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
I agree. Your writing is fantastic. Nothing to add particularly except thanks, as it stands nicely on its own.
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S Kyle, modified 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 12:24 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 12:24 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 26 Join Date: 7/25/10 Recent Posts
thanks.

this is why DhO is so important. i can say these things here; there is literally nowhere else to say them.

s.
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S Kyle, modified 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 8:01 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/17/10 8:00 PM

RE: On renunciation

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Guilherme  :
S Kyle:
(Or used to reinforce the sense of one's self as a 'failure.')

I don't understand this bit, can you please elaborate? Do you mean it like "I am a failure because I failed to keep my vow"?


This is sort of what I was getting at on the other thread too. But, yes, the first part is "I am a failure because I failed to keep my renunciate vows" and the second part is, "therefore *I* am a failure," (woe is ME) which keeps the self intact very well and is as self-serving as if one were to "succeed" in their renunciation and think, "*I* am so worthy because I don't do ________." In all of this the "I" is strengthened, not weakened
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Daniel Johnson, modified 13 Years ago at 8/20/10 3:14 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/20/10 3:14 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Since your comparing AF and renunciation, it seems to me that renunciation is implied by the word "pure" in the term "pure intent"... that essentially any intent which isn't inline with this pure intent is to be renounced as an "impurity" so to speak. This seems to fit with my practice, that renunciation somehow is inseparable from knowing really well what I really want

perhaps?
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S Kyle, modified 13 Years ago at 8/20/10 11:58 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/20/10 11:58 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 26 Join Date: 7/25/10 Recent Posts
Daniel Johnson:
Since your comparing AF and renunciation, it seems to me that renunciation is implied by the word "pure" in the term "pure intent"... that essentially any intent which isn't inline with this pure intent is to be renounced as an "impurity" so to speak. This seems to fit with my practice, that renunciation somehow is inseparable from knowing really well what I really want

perhaps?


Actually, I am not really comparing actualism to renunciation so much as rethinking renunciation. So perhaps there is little disagreement here?
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Daniel Johnson, modified 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:06 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:06 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
S Kyle:
Actually, I am not really comparing actualism to renunciation so much as rethinking renunciation. So perhaps there is little disagreement here?


I don't know what the disagreement would be except that I thought you were comparing and you didn't think you were. emoticon

I'm not really too sure about the exact meaning of the word "compare" so you could be right on this one. My definition of the word "compare" would be: the process of placing two things side by side and noticing how they interrelate. Renunciation and "PCE mode" placed side by side make for an interesting discovery, so it seems.

Anyway, I'm happy to enjoy the conversation.
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Jeff Grove, modified 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:56 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 9:48 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
So insidious is this psyche superimposed on experience is that it is the very act of renunciation.
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S Kyle, modified 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 10:05 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 8/22/10 10:05 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 26 Join Date: 7/25/10 Recent Posts
Jeff Grove:
So insidious is this psyche superimposed on experience is that it is the very act of renunciation.


Yes. This is what was meant.

And to the post just previous Jeff's:

The connotative implication of the word "compare," is to evaluatively consider two objects; one does not compare only to examine interrelation, but usually to make a decision about the two objects, to choose one over the other, for example. The choosing of one over the other is usually the outcome of comparison (as in, for example, comparison shopping). Here I am suggesting that actualism *is* a form of renunciation; it is the renunciation of harm. But if by compare one only means to examine the interrelation, and one strips the word compare of any evaluative quality, then yes, that word would apply; I just don't think that is how "compare" is used in common parlance.
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David Nelson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 1:22 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 1:22 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 28 Join Date: 10/20/10 Recent Posts
Wonderful thread. The renunciation of harm. Renunciation of mental impurities. What else is there to do?
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 3:02 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/6/12 3:02 PM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Thanks for revisiting this thread, David. I had not seen it before now.
M N, modified 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 8:42 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/7/12 5:28 AM

RE: On renunciation

Posts: 210 Join Date: 3/3/12 Recent Posts
We have to agree on the fact that renunciation has a lot of different meaning in different contexts.

That's my understanding of that in a few words: even if you get the most liberating mental state and insights, you will still live in this world and be to some degree bounded by your habit, neurotic tendencies and so on; if you apply yourself in a sistematic way to live in a way that, eventually, you don't particoularly feel like your psycological ego is bounded to something specific (a routine, a person, a job, an habit, whatever), that's freedom in a conventional sense, and it's a kind of freedom that makes your conventional life much more enjoyable, even if it's not the end of any foundamental suffering. (By that I don't mean having nothing in your life, but just don't have the sensation that in order to be happy you need something specific -and, I'll repeat again, here I'm talking about something that is purely conventional, that has nothing to do with the dualistic split, insight, PCE and so on).

This was to say that my understanding of the thing is not that you have to let go of you habits because it's somehow "right", but because if you menage to do that in a way that is not neurotic, that is not compulsive, it just feels very good.

I also think that this kind of freedom is something that is worth fighting for, and the development of renunciation in this sense should be intended as a practice standing by itself, in a way that has not less dignity than any other practice, in the same way that concentration practices are not by any mean "inferior" to insight practices, but they just bring different results.

However, I realize that this is a bit off-topic... however, maybe worth mentioning.