Hi, I wanted to write something brief about the insight cycles and middle paths. I was originally under the impression that Stream Entry was going through all of the cycles once, Sakadagami another full cycle, and then Anagami having many cycles. This ended up confusing me. (the idea of cycles within cycles crops up already in the Sakadagami path). On top of this there is another intermediate stage, “Full-fledged Anagami” that I had not heard about at all. All of these new things make it very clear that if the current maps are simply slid back one attainment and the idea of the Anagami-intermediate stage is added in then everyone is on the same page.

When not thought of in terms of cycles but rather simply stages he attainments are very straight forward. You simply go through each stage once.

Sotapanna: all the stages once
Sakadagami: all the stages once
Anagami: all the stages once
Full-Fledged Anagami: something different altogether

_____________________________________________________


“Full-Fledged Anagami” versus “Anagami”:

After the Anagami fruition the work is not considered done. There is an intermediate stage and more work to do for one to be considered a “Full Fledged Anagami”. It turns out the stage is not really intermediate at all. It is actually very difficult, more so than any of the prior paths. It is also very long and has already lasted me about twice the length of the Anagami path. From reading Daniel’s book and from a couple recent events it seems like the culmination is going to be in the opening of the 3rd eye.

Daniel describes the opening well in his book along with pin-pointing the most important idea of the whole stage: “more cycles aren’t going to help you”. And so something else does need to help you... and that is the change to being disassociated with the body (sense pleasures) and associated with the thing just prior to I/sensation/thought/sankara (pure awareness). This change happens slowly and comes about through the exact same meditation techniques practiced the whole way.

Here’s a quote from Acariya Mun’s biography about the stage:

“Those who have penetrated to the Anãgãmï level of understanding must still train their wisdom until it reaches an even more refined degree of expertise before it can be said that they are full-fledged Anãgãmïs”
....

“This made it very difficult to penetrate each successive level of
Dhamma. He said it was absolutely incredible how hard he struggled
to negotiate that dense, thorny thicket.”

...
"Ãcariya Mun recounted how he was delayed at that level
for quite some time because he had no one to advise him. As he
struggled to familiarize himself with the Anãgãmï level of practice,
he had to be very careful not to make any mistakes."

-d

Hi Blue,

You wrote this on Tommy's thread and so to avoid diverting the conversation there I thought I'd question you here.

Being as literal as possible with the fetter model in as strict a way as possible without any force fitting, can you please elaborate on how your on going experience is in accord with the fetter model. Can you explain how you are completely free from sensual desire and ill will and how you went about doing that? I'm seriously interested.

When i talk of the fetters of sensual desire and ill will being cut, I am being as literal and as strict as possible. That means that not even sensations are arising in place of full blown affective experiences of ill will and sensual desire like before. Not a simplly attenuated changed semi-compounding bodily reaction ill will or sensual desire but a complete absence of them all together in any form whatsoever, physical and mental. This is my current take on what anagami with the fetters of ill will and sensual desire completely cut looks like.

When something occurs that caused irritation or anger before, what is the experience now?
When you see a attractive male/female walking down the street and form hits the eye door, what is the experience that follows this?

I'm very curious about claims and how people went about practicing in order to get where they say they are. Can you give us a lowdown here as you haven't talked much about what you did.

Thanks,

Nick

To chime in briefly with an issue unrelated to this thread...due to considerations such as these, I no longer consider the state of having residual "shadow" experiences in place of normal affective reactions to be anagami.

As I have made the opposite claim in the past, I now withdraw it.

Hi Nick,

I ask this question in all seriousness: Is the reaction equal to seeing that of a woman of the age of 90? In that it is entirely neutral of any attraction factor whatsoever? Or is there the noticing of "she's hot" or "she's attractive" without any bodily sensations whatsoever (or even actual grosser mental "thought", or could the grosser thought be there but not lead to the bodily reactions or mental reaction, just a simple verbal thought..). However, you also say all mental sensations (meaning there is no unpleasant left over mental "imprint") or that there is the exact reaction you would have of seeing a woman of the age of 90? [Edit: And/Or perhaps clearer, someone of the same sex as yourself]

I've noticed this sort of "shadow" of sensual desire in the sexual attraction. The chest still sort of tenses, there is some sensation in the throat, but it is not compounded because it is noticed as it is. However, previously, it was noticed as it was, but there was also a grosser overall very unpleasant raw lust that was noticed as it was.

quote=Thomas A V]



Hi Thomas,



If you are asking me for my take on what I currently think anagami of the fetter model looks like then first I will have to make the disclaimer that I still have a residual shadow occurrence of passion in the form of just sensations in the chest. A slight pressure where a 'twang' would have been. There will be a slight pressure arising in chest which is automatically recognized as what would have triggered an affective passion before the last two shifts. (I have had two distinct path-like moments in the past 5 months). Now there is just sensations which arise and pass within a second or so to remind me that that would have been passion.

Being as strict and literal as possible I do not consider ill will (which also occurs in the same attenuated way) and sensual desire to have been completely and totally cut. Once even those particular sensations don't arise in the same situations, only then would I consider it anagami of the fetter model. And as I am pretty sure that is where it is headed, I stand by this opinion (until some other expericne changes my mind again).

To answer your question above, I would say the anagami reaction would be 'nothing', no sensations, no residual shadow, nothing. And if nothing is the normal reaction towards seeing a 90 year old woman, then yes to your question as well. No sensations, no residual shadow, no nothing for an anagami in my current opinion. That is my current take. I'm currently walking in this direction (not sure there is a choice).



Neutral meaning no reaction physical or mental at all? Then my take would be yes.



In my current experience, there is recognition of a slight pressure in the chest in this situation which informs me that I would have mentally reacted with passion before the shift in July. It lasts a second or two and that is it. It is like it never happened. The recent shift a week or so ago, left the 'twangs' in the chest cut in half so to speak. They are not 'twangy' nor 'burny' anymore but just pressure. They cause very little 'mental wrestling' that was present after the july shift.



Where do i say something about 'mental sensations'? There is currently no 'unpleasant mental imprint' in such situations. Just a recognition that the pressure in the chest would have set off affective passion. It still is unsatisfactory in a much subtler way and so I don't consider it a fetter completely cut. If by exact reaction you mean 'no reaction whatsoever physical or mental' then that is what I see as the anagami fetter model stage currently (this opinion is subject to change at the drop of a hat)



How long does this 'shadow experience' last and is there even the slightest 'mental overlay' of a felt sense of existing/being/me-ness/presence along with it? Thoughts accompanying it? What if you watched porn on the internet? What would happen? (serious question)

I don't recognize these things in my current experience. They stopped arising in July. But a weird hard to describe subtle 'mental shadowy movement' was arising till recently. Now it is hard to pinpoint if it is there or not as most of the time it's a continuum of distinctions, sense impressions left right and centre, apperceptive awareness, even of the pressure felt in the chest in such situations.

Nick

Having sensual desire is the same as having a tongue-like sankara in your body which leaves you to put itself on external objects to taste them. It can be a mental object, eye object, taste object ect. When sensual desire is gone this act of the tongue leaving your body to taste things ends. You can imagine the simplification in inner processes that this brings. More peace, and a much more constant feeling.

Another point I will make. When we interact with anything in the outside world there is two aspects, the raw physical occurrence and then the mental addition to it. Anagami’s are still stuck with the raw physical occurrence. If they are hit with a hammer they will still feel the physical pain. What is gone is the mental addition. The same idea applies to positive things. Cute girls or good food will still bring the pleasure of the raw physical occurrence, it is the mental addition that leaves.

hope this helps, it is just my experience



I am from the Goenka lineage and have been practicing for about 4 and ½ years.

ok, by my own definition, i wouldn't consider that anagami as there is still an attenuated version of sensual desire that is physical. thanks. can you give some more details of your ongoing experience? can you generate any affect mood at will? how is that experienced if so? how do you experience imagination? how do you experience ill will or a changed version of it? the same as sensual desire as you professed above?

can you give more details as to how you got to where you are? how did it happen?

thanks blue,

nick

It looks like I have a fair more of a "shadow" ( I will not call it "shadow" "to differentiate) than what you're describing. I watched a porn video for about 20 minutes. There was twanging in the chest before even going to the website. As I started watching there began "twanging" in the hands, forearms, then feet, legs, but not groin. I watched for a while before noticing the groin was not twanging. Then tried to bring awareness to groin. Subtle twanging, but not much. Disappears within seconds. The rest linger for some time. There were some faint subtle mental thoughts going on, some would amplify the twanging (particularly thoughts about "me" not getting to do what is going on right now in the video, or thoughts about certain "other" people I wouldn't like to see having sex with people other than "me." The twanging in the chest is still actually happening in the moments I type this (with some legs, feet, hands - except that the room I'm in is cold so some of the legs, feet, hands is shivering, but the twanging is not). So yes, these thoughts and their reaction would definitely indicate a fair level of "me"-ness, though diminished from a month ago. Not sure I have a "choice" about where this is headed either....

I would like to hear Blue say more about what is left at anagami, as the definitions above are interesting, but need some elaboration.

"Physical" is a mis-used word. Twangs of whatever in the body when seeing an attractive person seem physical, but are not. I'd like to know what specifically Blue means by the claims that the "pleasure of the raw physical occurrence" mean.

Agreed. Can you define your take of the word 'twang', End?

Mine is that it is tension that is mental, a mental wrestling with certain vedana that has arisen. This 'mental wrestling' could be gross as or sublte as. Mental proliferation can jump off any grade.

The most practical definition: anything that moves, anything that pulsates, etc.

At times, I have gotten the attention wave down to a point where all that remains is a rapid subtle fluttering (like butterfly wings beating against various points in the body)...perhaps a subdued version of the pressure you describe...even that is not physical (and so can be counted as a twang).

In general, I have found it to be a good assumption that anything that happens at chakra points is likely to not be physical.

(The word "twang" is a bit misleading in my usage, so perhaps I should change that.)

As in the attention bounce. Agreed.



If it is pulling the mind's attention there even though it's now a 'twang cut in half' so to speak, still a twang. I think to keep the bar raised, then 'twang' it still should be considered. Gross versus sublte twangs. Still pulling the mind there back and forth.



I think I agree.



Let's define it here then. Anything that keeps pulling the mind's attention? Meaning anything that moves (attention)?

There is a rare disorder where people don’t feel pain at all. If they have a cut or hurt a limb they have no idea at all. It is a very dangerous disease to have. This state is not the same for Anagamis. These physical reactions like pain, pressure, sweetness are simply signals that are helpful to us. You still feel the various tastes and good food is still good but it is a little flatter and the ecstatic (mental) part of it is gone. I have not been in a PCE for a while but if I remember it is the same way.

Though it is a little more confusing Ill will is the same way. It is not considered so in the modern day but there are actually 6 sense doors (mind). So the above explanation applies to Ill will as well.

Hi Blue,

I see. I am not talking about physical pain but specific vedana that may arise in specific parts of the body (chakra spots for example) that may have acted as triggers (affective charges) for full blown affective moods.

can you generate any affective mood at will? how is that experienced if so? how do you experience imagination? How did this stage occur for yourself? What was your practice and what is your current practice if there is one?

I should be honest and say that by Anagami+ I politely meant Arahant. I didn’t wanna get into it for whatever reason.



A month after the first Vipassana course I decided to be with sensation all the time. I didn’t miss a moment for 4 years. I very rarely sat with eyes closed.

Hi Blue,

It seems you are avoiding certain questions asked to simply make claims with no details. This achieves little for the DhO and yogis here. I care little for the claim itself and more so for the answers to specific questions already asked on how you experience or don't experience certain things. This would be more helpful than hearing simple claims without details. We may have completely different views on what these stages look like ( I think we do and perhaps you have overlooked something in your experiecne, and perhaps I have too. Thus the interest in your on going state). What is the harm?

My view of anagami and arahat has since been raised quite a bit recently due to certain 'changes' this mind/body organism has gone through and other data from other yogis. I am trying to see where our experiences differ and are the same. So far it sounds like you are claiming MCTB 4th path.

Are you talking about arahat as in MCTB 4th path? Do you experience any of the following in any way whatsoever, extremely subtle or extremely gross?


a mentally felt sense of self / self-obsessing chatter / being / shadow residual 'being' / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / instinctual passions / any affectively felt mind state / moods / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing

To step in...the issue of interest here is whether what Blue means by "physical" is the same thing as what Nick and I mean by "physical" (= sensory).

It is a simple word, one would think that the meaning is obvious, but it is quite easy to mix up what is a sense impression with what is craving or becoming masquerading as a sense impression...in fact, that is the history of how most of our practices went, up until a certain turning point.



A point that needs to be inserted here is that the sense-object that contacts the mind door is "ideas" or "thoughts", not "inclinations" or anything like that.

With that in mind, would you clarify what an anagami (or an arahant, since both have cut that fetter) experiences or doesn't experience in situations that would normally produce ill will?

Here’s a good example. I can go put my hand under burning water. Quickly the pain starts in my hand, however it stays there, and I notice the remnants of a feeling in the back of the head (the crown chakra), this is where the pain would have previously gone to multiple and become a mental pain as well. When the pain stays in just the hand it is much much easier to bear. Keep in mind that this is the way it has to be. If there were no pain in the hand whatsoever we would not have a defense system to keep our hand safe. Ill will is the same way, it arises but does not go to that mental portion.



-Goenka

Hi Blue. In his writings Goenka explicitly says he's not an arahant himself, and also seems skeptical about any of his students achieving arahatship.
If you're following the Goenka tradition and claim to be an arahant, do you think that Goenka is misguided about his own situation, or that you were able to outpace him in just 4 1/2 years?
I'm not trying to cast doubt on your claims, I'm more confused about Goenka's ideas of stages of attainment.

Both I and Nick would likely consider this "remnant" to be mental as well.

Further, in my experience, apparently-physical pain is largely mental as well, i.e. there is a mental overlay on top of the pain, arising at the same spatiotemporal location as the pain, which masquerades as the pain.

Can you give an example with ill-will? I think that would help to clarify things immensely.

That's because Goenka is better than an Arahant ;) It is pretty obvious that he is a Bodhissatva. Meaning he is one of the people who comes back over and over for many lifetimes to develop his qualities so that he can become one of the noble disciples that arise during the next Buddha. You can learn about the different types of Boddhisatvas and the lengths of time it takes to be each one.

ps. out friend's teacher, U Ba Khin is also very obviously a Bodhissatva, and an even stronger one than Goenka. Some even think he is... someone very special but I'll save that for another post

Nikolai, these are good questions and I would like to answer them. However before talking about things at length, especially what my experience is like, I want to finish the stage I'm at. It would be irresponsible to talk about things I am not sure of.

Hi Blue,

Is the stage you are at still unfinished? You have said that you meant arhant in your quote below. Perhaps you are alluding to having gotten to MCTB 4th path?

It would be wise to re-assess your situation and tread carefully when making claims like your posts quoted below as there may be varying ways of diagnosing such stages here. In sharing your ongoing experience you can avoid appearing vague and instead help give more data where data is needed. If you can't do this (and this being the open pragmatic dharma movement and not a group of rule bound monks), best not to make such claims period as it comes across to some as just plain trollery. You have made the step to claim high stages on something you have said is just 'one path'. Why hold back on talking about your ongoing experience phenomenologically now?


and


This is why I ask about ongoing experiences to see if we can compare each other's experience. Yogi's here do this all the time and it is not seen as 'irresponsible' to do so. What is irresponsible is making claims then avoiding this dialogue of comparing ongoing experiences. Claims not backed up by dialogue on ongoing experiences don't come across well.

Perhaps we both have differing views on what constitutes these fetter free stages of awakening as well as what constitutes 'fetter free'. There is no harm in disagreement here. There is no harm in comparing ongoing experiences either for the sake of seeing where our disagreement lies. This can aid both of us in being able to look at our ongoing experience from different angles, and can also aid in helping one not rest any laurels pre-maturely. This is the way things are done at the DhO.

It is not hard but quite easy to share what I asked for you to share right now. Simply look now for any of the following:

any mentally felt sense of me-ness, existence, location, presence or being (anything) in your ongoing experience in this very moment, subtle or gross? Is there anything that could technically take birth/is taking birth right now again and again?

It's ok to share here at the DhO. It is also ok to re-assess attainments. If you wish, you can PM me your answer.


Nick

This is the type of dialogue and comparing we need more of, Blue.

Having spent many years in the Goenka tradition as well, I also thought this way and thus accepted MCTB 4th path as an end stage when I arrived there. But further explorations and exposure to yogis here that talk of eradicating even that physical remnant of an affective 'ill will' (not pain itself caused to the body by outside elements like boiling water), I re-assessed where I thought I was and have since completely shifted my understanding of what a fetter is and how it looks when cut with continued changing experience. I also started looking at the attention bounce'

Do you experience an attention bounce? In a situation where an affective ill will would arise, now there is still a sensation, right? Is there any 'mental wrestling' with this sensation? Would that sensation of 'ill will' seem like a 'twang'? Does it have a 'burny' quality to it? Do you need to be equanimous with it to any degree? If you paid attention to another sense door, does the attention keep getting pulled to the sensations considered to be a remnant of 'ill will'? Is there an attention bounce that keeps bouncing back to those particular sensations? Does the attention landing on those sensations of 'ill will' cause any effect at all? Does it dull perception via other sense doors in anyway? What if there were no pulling of attention there?

I can understand your point about still being able to feel the pain of boiling water. But why the need to still experience the sensations of ill will?

Yes, I am familiar with all the rampant speculation within the Goenka tradition of Goenka having renounced awakening for some future time so as to spread dhamma. I am also aware of the speculation that U Ba Khin was supposed to be Metteya come down from Tusita Heaven. I am also aware of the speculation based on certain things Goenka has supposedly said (told to me by someone who I assumed was present when these things were said) that he was born just after the death of Ledi Sayadaw insinuating that he was the rebirth of Ledi Sayadaw. Also on perhaps the same or different Teacher's Self-course discourse, he supposedly said that those senior students present in the assembly of students before him would not be getting any stages of awakening in this lifetime due to having resolved to follow Goenka around from life to life spreading the dhamma. Those who wished to get Stream Entry in this lifetime could do so if they wanted, but those who feel pulled to follow Goenka wont be. Or something along those lines.

Can anyone confirm these wildly speculative notions? Blue?

Yes there is definitely a little me’ness left, even if very subtle. In the past I could look at my hand and see “not I”, now when I look at my hand I can no longer distinguish it from an inanimate object next to it. My feeling is this is “me” is the last thing to go during the post-arahantship phase.



No twang, the feeling of it is very similar to the low-key feeling of the scorched hand. This feeling has no burning quality to it and I do not need to be equanimous with it, nor do I have a choice of being equanimous with it, it just happens and fades quickly.

I see. At MCTB 4th path, I had the experience of 'me-ness' which would come and go. Outside of a PCE, there was always a sense of presence or being subtle or gross manifesting as this mood or that. Do you experience any moods still, Blue? If so how do you experience moods? Can you willfully generate any affect whatsoever? This last question i hope you do not avoid but answer.

The fullblown 'me-ness' disappeared following a shift that followed taking on the AF approach to practice. What took its place is a slightly confusing tinge of 'being' but not quite being. We've been calling it shadow being. It looks nothing like any sense of self like before but related more to the attention bounce. It has changed a bit since another shift 2 weeks or so ago. I do not experiecne any 'twangs' but sensations are still arising that were seen as twangs like before. The burniness has gone and is more like pressure. There is still an attention bounce which causes dulling effect (not PCE) on perception. This is what I think needs to go for the arahat stage to occur. I do not consider myself at the 'arahat' stage (fetter model). If there is even the slightest sense of 'me-ness' there is still something being born and so this is why I would not consider the stage you have spoken of in little detail as the arahat stage early or late. Do you still experience affective feelings? If so, how so? What happens when you generate metta? What is the result? What happens in the body and mind? Please answer these questions.



The word 'scorched' could indicate what I am talking about except I would use the word 'burny' (which seems the same as scorched to me). The fading is the same experience for myself. Do you see how attention is pulled to those scorched feeling sensations? Why does the attention get pulled there? What happens when those sensations are seen without the 'scorched feeling'?

Note: